Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Washington & Jefferson College alumni/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 21:58, 6 April 2010 [1].

List of Washington & Jefferson College alumni

Nominator(s): GrapedApe (talk) 03:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Featured list candidates/List of Washington & Jefferson College alumni/archive1

I would like to nominate this list of alumni for featured list review. It was written to follow the precedent of recent lists of alumni. It has has undergone a thorough (and helpful) peer review. Hopefully it is good enough for Featured List designation. GrapedApe (talk) 03:20, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I notice that alt text has been added, but right now it merely duplicates the image captions, which is not the purpose of alt text. Alt text describes only what you can see in the picture without external information (i.e. it must be verifiable), which means alt text such as "Andrew Wylie" is largely useless since nobody knows what Wylie looks like. Instead, describe what Wylie looks like; a common analogy to writing alt text is to pretend that you are describing the photo to someone over the phone. See the alt text at List of University of Central Florida alumni, a recently promoted Featured list, for an alumni list that has good alt text. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I'm on it. --GrapedApe (talk) 03:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I gave it a try. Hope that works better.--GrapedApe (talk) 04:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - It does look a lot better, thanks. There are still a couple images whose alt texts need to be improve, such as the image of Stephen Foster and the picture of John Astin. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:44, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Moot point now, since alt text is no longer part of the FL criteria. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Bencherlite ^Talk 21:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

;Comments from Bencherlite

My standard question for alumni lists – what steps have you taken to try to make the list as comprehensive as possible? I'm not looking for proof that you've got all the notable alumni in the list, since that would be virtually impossible to do or to prove; I'm just looking for an idea as to how you've gone about finding names to add to the list, whether you've written articles for people who were obviously missing from Wikipedia, whether there's an outside list of notable alumni that you were working from, etc.
- I checked the contents of Category:Washington & Jefferson College alumni for additions. I also created articles for a lot of early professional sportsmen from the college. Also, I looked through the Biographical and Historical Catalogue' for any names that stood out, especially prominent politicians,judges, and Presidents of colleges. Here are a few articles I wrote to fill in the gaps (William Burnett (preacher), Joseph Smith (1796–1869), George D. Archibald, Latimer A. McCook, Thomas Stokeley Wilson, Ethelbert Patterson Oliphant, Samuel Dexter LeCompte, George Addison Crawford, Edwin Nevin, William Burnett (preacher)). - GrapedApe
  - That's good enough for me on this point. Bencherlite ^Talk 08:45, 26 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No dab links
Alt text still needs work: "Freshmen celebrate their first evening at Washington & Jefferson College" for the first image isn't a description of the image for alt-text purposes (think of telling us instead roughly how many people there are, what they are doing, where they are positioned, and the words of the caption). Alt-text is dull to do, I know, but you do need more than "Black and white full torso photo of a Caucasian male" to give a proper description.
The images are quite small - what happens if you try removing the "100px" limitations?
- I was following the format from List of United States Military Academy alumni (academics).
References - these comments are not exhaustive
- Where your reference title is along the lines of "ANDERSON, James Patton, (1822 - 1872)", you need to remove the all-caps even if they're in the source, i.e. "Anderson"
  - done
- Ref 4 is incomplete (needs date/acccessdate)
  - done
- Ref 15 with "Elm street printing company" - enough capital letters? Ditto ref 21
  - done
The lists – general comments on a relatively brief read
- Any reason why the width of "state and local" differs from the rest?
  - I have no idea. It probably has something to do with the alumni/start template.
- Personally, I think you don't need to link Washington & Jefferson College in the notes at all, certainly not as much as you do. The usual guide is to link more in sortable lists so that people can find links quickly, but when the opening words on the page are "Washington & Jefferson College", it's hardly difficult to find the link. There is certainly no need to link the college twice in some notes, as you do e.g. for Boyd Crumrine Patterson. If you've got a President of W&J, consider linking to the presidents' list instead.
  - done
Academia
- Thomas D. Baird: no need to link common terms like "mathematics"
  - done
- Frederick E. Grine's notes shouldn't have a full-stop (not a complete sentence)
  - done
- John McDowell Leavitt: has a ",;" in the middle
  - done
- Francis Julius LeMoyne's notes should start with a capital letter; also you have "nationally known" (without hyphen) and "historically-black" (with hyphen), and I read in MOS:HYPHEN that "A hyphen is not used after a standard -ly adverb", so you should change it to "historically black"
  - done
- Jacob Lindley's notes should start with a capital letter; also, do you need to mention that he was educated at Dod's log college in the notes as well as in the year column?
  - done
- Alfred Ryors: overlinking of Indiana and Ohio universities
  - done
- John Work Scott: "vice" not "Vice" as you're not at the start of a sentence
  - done
- Joseph Smith: "grandson" not "Grandson" as you're not at the start of a sentence
  - done
Military
- Any reason to link the Confederate State Army in the first note but not the Union army in the second?
  - done
- John Byers Anderson: is there a missing "and" after Cumberland
  - done
- Maxwell Hunter: two "Worked" mid-sentence, should be "worked"
  - done
- Daniel McCook: stray mid-sentence capitals (Officer, His)
  - done
- Henry Christopher McCook: stray mid-sentence capitals
  - done
- Actually, I'm not going to point stray mid-sentence capitals out any more, you find them please!
  - I think I found them all
- George W. Morgan: any reason for the ? there? (Something similar in ref 117)
  - done

That will do for now. The list looks in generally good shape, but needs a fair amount of polishing. I'll return with more suggestions when you've responded to this batch. Bencherlite ^Talk 22:52, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note to nominator Please do not strike reviewers' comments; the reviewers themselves decide when issues are resolved (I changed the strikes to indented and italicized "dones" where appropriate). Dabomb87 (talk) 20:54, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment – Took a brief look at the Athletics section, and am curious as to why Head Coach is capitalized three times (by my count). I don't believe it's a proper noun. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 12:44, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments from Bencherlite I have a number of minor points which I have put on the talk page of this FLC to avoid cluttering up the front page. Bencherlite ^Talk 00:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These appear to have been addressed as well, for the most part. So, what's left?
- Some of the alt-text is still inadequate, even under the recently loosened guidance: "Caucasian female smiling at the camera", "Color photo of a Caucasian male", "Black and white photo of Caucasian male in a chair", "John Astin", "Photo of a bearded man" and I could go on. The alt text for the lead image basically restates the caption. Even though I'm not the world's greatest fan of WP:ALT, this isn't close enough to being adequate for me to be able to ignore it in good conscience while alt-text is still one of the FL criteria.
- Some of the references give the publisher as "W&J College", others as "Washington & Jefferson College". Any reason for the difference? - I changed them all to Washington & Jefferson College
If the alt-text can be improved, I'd be prepared to support but not just yet. Bencherlite^Talk 21:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the help so far. I will get to the alt text in the next few days. --GrapedApe (talk) 13:30, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Support as alt text is no longer part of the Featured List criteria. Of course, if that situation changes before this FLC ends, you'll need to comply with whatever ~~half-baked~~ the new standard is! Bencherlite ^Talk 21:53, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support prose – Read through the lead and the writing looks okay for the most part. The one part I wasn't crazy about was "with Jefferson College in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania being chartered in 1802 and Washington College being chartered in 1806." I've never been a fan of these "with + being..." type of sentences; perhaps "; Jefferson College in Canonsburg, Pennsylvania was chartered in 1802 and Washington College was chartered in 1806" could be considered? I also skimmed through the sources, and what I saw looked good as far as reliability goes; however, I didn't check the tables other than the athletics one before, so this shouldn't be considered a 100% support. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:22, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

What's CEO? - I linked it to Chief executive officer
"These three log cabin colleges" no need to repeat three here. - done
Or indeed, log cabin... - done
"had 12,000 living alumni" exactly? - done
"Before the union of the two colleges in 1865," you just mentioned 1865 two sentences prior... - done
12,000 vs 1936. Be comma-separator consistent.- done
Alumni is linked on its second use.- done
Is it true that "These graduates " equals students "who have completed at least one college year as full-time students"? One year makes a graduate? - I think I clarified this
In Safari, the key overlaps the lead image. - I don't really know how to remedy this problem.
- I added a {{clear}} template to remedy this. Jujutacular ^T · C 18:06, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"where he was the lone vote " his was the lone vote...? - done
Business section - the ? sorts curiously for me in Safari. Force it to sort as a zero. - done
Ewing's class year seems to be forced to sort as something (despite it being a ?). Are you consistently applying some kind of logic in every section because it doesn't appear so to me. - I think I cleared the sort issues
Ref 28 - needs an en-dash.- done
Ref 33 appears to have double " - done
Ref 40, 64, 192, 237 have a human-readable date while all others in the refs are ISO. - done
Ref 70 needs an en-dash. - done
Ref 87, 129, do they need the space between the year and the en-dash. - done
Why is ref 169 spaced en-dash? - done
Ref 182 - en dash required. - done

Many ref's need attendance - this is the version with the specific numerical ref values I've noted above. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 10 - spare period. - the second period is added by the reference template, since the publisher name has a period at the end: "Co." To change it to remove that period would create an inaccurate reference.
Ref 57, 235 - spare period. - the second period is added by the reference template, since the publisher name has a period at the end: "Co." To change it to remove that period would create an inaccurate reference.
- Not inaccurate at all. Just one less period. How is ".." more accurate? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Because the first period is part of the name of the publisher, while the second period is part of the citation style. To put another way, each period is serving a purpose: one is part of the name of the publisher, while the other is part of the citation format. To change it would introduce error into the citation: the name of the publisher will be incorrect. At least that's how I understand it.
  - I don't believe the second period is necessary; similarly I would not write "Barack Obama is the president of the U.S.. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Fair point. Changed.--GrapedApe (talk) 21:52, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I would add a (s) to the Reference heading as there is oftentimes more than one. - I'm an unclear about what this means
- i.e. make the col heading Reference(s). The Rambling Man (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - ~~This does not appear to be a parameter in the {{Alum}} template that can alter that. Suggestions?~~ I changed the template source code to reflect this discussion. [2]
Is it really necessary to repeat "U.S. Congressional Representative" for every single line in the U.S. Congressmen section? - Do you have any suggestions on another way to note this?
- Don't continually repeat the phrase. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Changed.
Col widths are all over the place from section to section. I'd like to see them fixed. - I used the standard {{Alum}} series of templates. I did that so that the widths would be automatic. Also, the column widths look the same to me (on firefox)
- Not the same in Safari. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't know how I can alter the {{Alum}} template to fix this problem. Especially since I can't see the problem. Any suggestions?
    - Fixed column width was one of the design goals of {{mem/a}}. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 23:05, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Thanks! I will work over the next few days to make the switch!--GrapedApe (talk) 05:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Something's gone awry in the "Military and aerospace" section... The Rambling Man (talk) 10:45, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Fixed. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:39, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Changed to the {{mem/a}} template. Did that work for Safari?--GrapedApe (talk) 03:46, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        After making that change, it became clear that there was no way to have the class years all on 1 line, so I changed the coding to a wikitable, like List of Brigham Young University alumni and List of University of Central Florida alumni. This should take care of all of the aforementioned problems (class years on multiple lines, references, and column widths.--GrapedApe (talk) 20:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Eaton, Samuel John Mills; Woods, Henry (1902)" should be a general ref so you only need to specify author and page number(s) each re-use. - I am not sure how to do this. Could you please do one as an example
- Check out some of our recently promoted FLs for help here. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - In progress. This might take a while, since there are multiple editions of this book (1889/1902) that are used.--GrapedApe (talk) 04:28, 2 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Status update: I have completed this process for the "Academia" and " Military and aerospace" sections. Please let me know if I am doing it wrong.--GrapedApe (talk) 21:25, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Done! All of the cites for that book are now short refs. All of the 1889 references were repaginated to match the 1902 version (a superior edition anyways).--GrapedApe (talk) 02:25, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support good work. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Looks great, good work. Jujutacular ^T · C 04:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ImGz (t/c) 12:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Comments

There should be a space between the "p." and the page number in your specific references.

done

I think having the 1902 in the specific references is superfluous - you're only using that version.

According to WP:CITESHORT, the years are not superfluous

CITESHORT says that 'many articles use', not that it's required. Whether it is included or not seems to be left to the discretion of the author (Mary Rose vs. 21st Regiment Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry)

I'm not sure what the MOS says about this, I can't find anything on a quick run through, but I do not think it's necessary for each specific page reference to have a link to the book/page when the general reference already links to it.

Maybe it's not necessary, but it's helpful.

The general reference should have the book ISBN or the OCLC.

done

McGuffey, Baird, Hunter, Oliver, Cowan, Dallis, Ewing - watch for stray punctuation at the end of the notability description.

done

Several instances of capitalization inconsistencies - "professor of mathematics" vs. "Professor of Languages and Philosophy", "president" vs. "President", "college" vs. "College" (example of this one is: grandson of College founder, Joseph Smith vs. studied under college founder John McMillan).

All clarified

"first President of President of Franklin College" huh?

fixed

Morgan - shows odd formatting for me right before the years listed.

I don't see any odd formatting there.

Stoffel - why is "majored in mathematics and physics" in the notability description? Why is his majors listed and not others?

If I came across interesting information about an alumni about their time at the W&J, I tried to find a way to include it. (like at Walter B. Massenberg, Nicholas P. Dallis, Charles Page Thomas Moore, Martin Delaney, Alberto Vilar, Stephen Foster James McGready, and Al Helfer). (Also, I majored in mathematics at W&J, so it amused me).

Fair enough.

Voorhis - "left college to enlist in the Spanish–American War" which college would this be at this point? left Washington & Jefferson college to enlist.. or left the College to enlist..

clarified

Helfer - "Mr. Radio Baseball;" should be "Mr. Radio Baseball";

done

Smith - "a Historically Black College" capitalization?

done

Meyers - which newspaper? If it's defunct/red link you don't have to link it, but mentioning it might not be amiss since you mentioned that he published a newspaper.

done

External links - please clarify exactly what W&J stands for at the beginning of the article. Reading through the article this is the first time I'm seeing the abbreviations mentioned outside of the references. --ImGz (t/c) 04:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Used full name there

Towler - "he was a 5x Pro-Bowler" not everybody is aware of what "5x" means.

done

Numbers one through nine should be spelled out. --ImGz (t/c) 12:38, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support --ImGz (t/c) 14:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.