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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Margaret (singer)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 21:49, 15 February 2018 [1].

Margaret (singer)

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Nominator(s): ArturSik (talk) 22:00, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about one of the most popular contemporary artists in Poland with some achievements in other European countries and after her participation in Melodifestivalen 2018 she will undoubtedly attract even more attention. I kept working on the article since it has been promoted to GA last year and I believe that it since has evolved quite a lot and now meets FAs criteria. It's been peer reviewed by Ceranthor and FrB.TG in the past few weeks and hopefully with some more help we will achieve our goal of the article being promoted to FA. Any help is welcome. Thanks. ArturSik (talk) 22:00, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Ceranthor. Really appreciate it. ArturSik (talk) 07:09, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Freikorp
  • "she was discovered by her manager and signed by her record label" - this doesn't read right to me. Can we say 'she was discovered by manager Sławomir Berdowski and signed by her record label' instead?
 Done
  • "numbers six, ten and eleven, respectively," - too many commas. I'd drop the ones before and after 'respectively'
 Done
  • "(also known as the Gosia Jamroży Project)" - is this really necessary? This section is pretty heavy on bracketed information as it is; I'd drop it.
 Done
  • ""I Get Along" and finished second" - it would be interesting to know how many competitors there were.
 Done
That's all I found. Happy to support this as it is though. Freikorp (talk) 09:43, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the support. ArturSik (talk) 10:58, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Aoba47

I feel bad for not helping with this article during the peer review when pinged so I will leave a review here. My comments will focus only on the prose:

  • I would be a little more descriptive in the ALT text for the infobox image.
 Done
  • I would change this part “born 30 June 1991 and known professionally as” to “born 30 June 1991, known professionally as” for more concise language.
 Done
  • I would change “she was in” to “she performed in”.
 Done
  • For the last part of the lead’s first paragraph, please add the years in which “Thank You Very Much” and “Cool Me Down” were released. I do not see why you would delay a mention of the year for the first song until the second mention in the second paragraph.
 Done
  • I would spell out EP on its first use in the lead and the body of the article and put EP in parenthesis next to it. After the first mention in each, then you can use EP as the reader will know what you are referencing.
 Done
  • In the lead’s second paragraph, I would add a link to jazz in “a jazz album”. I would also link jazz in the body of the article on its first use.
 Done
  • For this part “voiced a character in the Polish-language version of”, I would name the character.
 Done
  • For this part “Margaret studied singing at the Jazz Academy in Kraków", I would add a comma after Krakow.
 Done
  • For this part “At age sixteen she moved”, add a comma after “sixteen”.
 Done
  • For this part “At this time she”, add a comma after “time”.
 Done
  • For this part “At eighteen Margaret moved to Warsaw”, add a comma after “eighteen”.
 Done
  • The first paragraph of the 2012–2013: Breakthrough with "Thank You Very Much” subsection is rather long; would it be beneficial to split it into two?
 Done
  • I am not sure that this is part is necessary (who worked with The Black Keys, Britney Spears and Kesha). How is his previous work with these artists necessary for this section. I would remove it.
 Done
  • For this part “award-winning director”, I would remove “award-winning” as it may violate POV somewhat. Unless the awards and connected with the music video, then it is not necessary to bring it up.
 Done
  • Make sure to have EP linked and spelled out in the body of the article.
 Done
  • Please add ALT text for all of the images in the body of the article.
 Done
  • I would remove this part (who worked with Selena Gomez, Hilary Duff and Irina Shayk) as I do not see how it is relevant for this article.
 Done

Wonderful work here. Once all of my comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 20:00, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A massive THANK YOU Aoba47. ArturSik (talk) 21:48, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for addressing everything. Great work with this article. I really should do some work with biography articles in the future. Just for future reference, I think that the use of graphics (i.e. the done checkmark) is discouraged so I would replace those with just text. I support this for promotion based on prose. Aoba47 (talk) 22:14, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Will do that in the future. Thank you and good luck with biographies. ArturSik (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

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I have some difficulty in providing a comprehensive sources review, since about 90% of the citations are to foreign, mainly Polish sources. it would be a good idea if someone with knowledge of Polish could review these sources to confirm that they meet our standards of quality and reliability. In the meantime I can report that all links are working and that the references are consistently formatted. I have just a couple of queries:

  • Ref 8: Does not appear to contain the informatioin cited to it ("Margaret studied singing at the Jazz Academy in Kraków")
My bad. Changed it to Jazz Academy in Katowice.
  • In a number of cases the language is not given: see11, 16, 17, 93 and perhaps some others
Done

Brianboulton (talk) 15:45, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll try to find a Polish speaker who could review the sources. Thank you. ArturSik (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think one way to do some checking would be to see if the newspapers/website themselves are at-least reliable - don't need to know what the article is about if it is from say the polish-equivalent of the dailymail. Galobtter (pingó mió) 18:17, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Volunteer Marek has kindly agreed to review the sources, so I guess the best thing to do for now is to wait for his review and see what he says :) ArturSik (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was asked to look into the sources. I am a bit busy and not deeply interested in the topic of this article, but I found a few minutes. Here are sources that do not appear bulletproof reliable at the first glance, and the nominator may want to comment and explain why they are used (note: I am not listing interviews, and stuff that appears to be rewritten press releases/marketing materials, just stuff that seems very niche, including two references that seem to be from the subject's blog):
school's website and an article stating she was their student
town's website. An article about her being a student of the local music school.
an interview with the singer so I assume what she says is reliable
band's profile on a music portal
Margaret's blog
Margaret's blog
removed
I am not familiar with ref standards for popculture stars. If we cut tabloids, average gossip portals (pretty much same fare), and interviews, there wouldn't be much left. Shrug. It's not like there are biography books on her, and while there is some coverage in main newspapers/magazines, I am sure a lot of uncontroversial, minor facts are not there. Again, I write bios on different type of people (historical bios) and the sourcing standards are a bit different (most of my subjects died long before they could blog about themselves :P). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 23:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Brianboulton here’s the message. ArturSik (talk) 13:54, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Before anyone with sufficient knowledge of ref standards for pop stars gives their opinion, I'd like to say that the sources that I have used in this article such as Onet and Interia (I think these are the ones that I use the most) aren't considered tabloids on Polish wikipedia and are used there in most articles about popstarts, inlcuding in featured articles. As you have said yourself it's not like there are books or studies on her, so there have to be some sources covering this topic that are acceptable on wikipedia and onet and interia as well as I believe the other ones that I have used in this article are. The Polish tabloids that can be comapred to The Sun or Daily Mail are Fakt and Super Express and these have never been used by me. As to the sources used in the article I really don't know how we could verify them but as far as I'm concerened they aren't tabloidlike. ArturSik (talk) 18:54, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Coord note: It might be worth having another experienced source reviewer come in at this point... Also I gathered that this is Artur's first FAC (correct me if I'm wrong) so we'd need a spotcheck of sources for accurate use and avoidance of close paraphrasing. Andy, would you be able to weigh in re. source reliability and perhaps spotcheck a few English refs? Volunteer Marek or Piotr, could you sporcheck some Polish-language sources? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Ian Rose: Can do today. --Laser brain (talk) 12:52, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose Yes, this is my first FAC. Thanks for stepping in and helping out with the sources review, it's been a bit problematic since most of them are not in English but hopefully we can overcome this. ArturSik (talk) 19:31, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ian Rose I already pointed out the most problematic ones above. Waiting for the nominator to explain why they are reliable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:11, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I have now adressed all your comments. As I am not too familiar with ref standards I guess it's best to wait and see what someone who does says. Whether blogs are acceptable or not etc. Regards. ArturSik (talk) 14:49, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we've taken this about as far as we can, and although there may be uncertainties concerning the standards of some of the foreign language sources I'm inclined to thinking that reasonable diligence has been observed, and to consider the sources as acceptable, provided the spotchecking is completed satisfactorily. Brianboulton (talk) 14:40, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Brianboulton is that a support then? ArturSik (talk) 15:29, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't register "support" or "oppose" when confining myself to sources checking. But with 10 or 11 supports already, you scarcely need another! Brianboulton (talk) 16:14, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by FrB.TG

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Support on prose. I first reviewed and copy-edited it last year or so when it was yet to be nominated for GA. It grew more since then. I recently took part in its peer review, where I found it much better. I think it is a nice article about a young woman and meets 1a criterion. FrB.TG (talk) 22:10, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you:) ArturSik (talk) 23:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Comments by Wehwalt

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Here's what I have so far, through the start of the 2014 section.

  • "Margaret was approached by future manager, Sławomir Berdowski," missing word, possibly "her" before "future"
Done. ArturSik (talk) 01:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In May 2012, "Thank You Very Much" was serviced to radio stations in Poland," is serviced the proper word? Possibly "released"?
Done. ArturSik (talk) 01:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The video was removed by YouTube from their services, since it violated the website's no-nudity-and-sexual-content policy; it was later restored with age restrictions.[34] " consider cutting "from their services". I might try to avoid the multiple connected words possibly by "the website's policy against ..."
Done. ArturSik (talk) 01:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:34, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, been busy with other reviews. Focusing on this now.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:48, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "2014 FIVB Volleyball Men's World Championship Opening Ceremony" I might shorten to "tournament's Opening Ceremony"
Done. ArturSik (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "{{nowrap|[[Swedish Recording Industry Association]] (GLF)}}." this is causing a line to end halfway through on my browser.
Removed "nowrap". ArturSik (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly {{nowrap|''[[Smurfs: The Lost Village]]''}}
as above. ArturSik (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "number thirty-eight on their list of 50" why are some numbers spelled out and not others?
done.ArturSik (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mrs. Claus" If this article is written in British English, as I suspect, possibly the period after Mrs should be deleted as it is not usually used.
removed the fullstop. ArturSik (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for your comments. ArturSik (talk) 00:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt, have you comments been addressed satisfactorily? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:41, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think so. Support.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Nick-D

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I'm posting this review in response to a request on my talk page a few weeks ago. I have to say that I hadn't previously heard of this artist, and know nothing about her beyond what's in the article and from some YouTube videos I just watched. The article is in good shape, and is a fine example of a biography of a pop singer. I have the following comments and suggestions:

  • "After the win, she took part in the show's 2009 final held at the Congress Hall in Warsaw" - do we know where she placed?
only the winner was announced. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • " after hearing her cover of Adele's "Right as Rain"." - where did they hear this? (at a concert, or was it recorded?)
changed "cover" to "recording"
  • The '2014–2016: Add the Blonde, Just the Two of Us and "Cool Me Down"' section doesn't read well: it's fact after fact, with excessive detail which belongs in the articles on her discography. For instance:
    • "as the lead single from Margaret's debut studio album" - the album then isn't described until 2 paragraphs later
reorganised the section and removed some information that are already included in articles on the albums and the songs. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The single's music video, directed by Julia Bui Ngoc, was inspired by Jean-Pierre Jeunet's 2001 film Amélie and Andy Warhol's work" - useful for the article on the song, but not needed here
removed. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • " She performed it at the tournament's Opening Ceremony on 30 August in front of an audience of 62,000 in the National Stadium in Warsaw, before the Poland v. Serbia match broadcast in more than 168 countries." - I'd suggest cutting this to "She performed it at the tournament's Opening Ceremony in the National Stadium in Warsaw". Everything else is irrelevant, or fairly obvious from the context.
done. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The show was cancelled after two months during which ten episodes aired" - delete everything after "months"
done. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The singer appeared in two Polish Coca-Cola advertising campaigns, for which she recorded a Polish version of Robin Beck's "First Time" titled "Smak radości" (translated as "The Taste of Happiness") and a Polish version of the Christmas song "Wonderful Dream (Holidays are Coming)", originally sung by Melanie Thornton, titled "Coraz bliżej święta" (translated as "Holidays are Coming") which featured the finalists of the sixth season of The Voice of Poland" - I'd suggest simplifying this to "The singer appeared in two Polish Coca-Cola advertising campaigns, performing covers of two songs".
done. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • "and Margaret has said that it is about "a very hot chick [...] rhythm, moves and sexiness"" - I'd suggest cutting this
done. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "has said that she had more artistic control over its creative process than with her debut album" - do we know what this involved? (both for the first album and this album?)
she was more involved in the songwriting, having co-written 10 out of 12 songs on the album. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why she released a jazz album at the time she was building a career as a pop singer? It seems an interesting change of pace and genre. Given that it's a bit outside her main focus, did the album get good reviews?
I would compare this turn to what Lady Gaga did when she recorded a jazz album with Tony Bennett. It was "out of love to jazz". + I didn't find any reviews from high profile magazines/websites in Poland. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not really on top of the Eurovision qualification process (despite Australia bizarrely now being a participant!), but how did she qualify to potentially represent Sweden? Nick-D (talk) 05:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
“But the main reason that I’m here is the God of Melodifestivalen liked my song — that’s the main reason.” That god, of course, is Mr Christer Björkman, the head honcho of Melodifestivalen who will also help produce Eurovision 2018 in Lisbon. “It turned out that Christopher saw me somewhere on TV here in Sweden, and we prepared a song and they liked it. And here I am.” (http://wiwibloggs.com/2017/11/28/melodifestivalen-2018-margaret-tells-us-whats-cabana/202715/). ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So you don't need to even be a resident of the country you're representing? Eurovision is even wackier than I thought! (come to think of it, I vaguely remember an Australian representing the UK a few years ago). Nick-D (talk) 10:31, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I know, it's mad. But actually Sweden is much more strict on having only Swedes (or someone with Swedish background/Swedish residents/citizens) representing them in Eurovision than other countries. Margaret was asked to take part, because she's signed with Swedish label and had some success there. That's what the show's producer said - http://wiwibloggs.com/2017/11/29/christer-bjorkman-says-melfest-2018-line-filled-hits-alcazar-reveals-svt-rejected/202777/. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D thanks for your comments. I've left my replies under each one of them. ArturSik (talk) 14:18, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now addressed. Nice work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 10:31, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D thanks, appreciate it. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Panagiotis Zois

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  • It should be "born on June 30, 1991", not "30 June 1991". This applies to both the lead section and her early life section.
The article is written in British English, so I'm going to stick with the dmy format. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ohh shit. I hadn't thought of that. Well, in that case, forget I said anything. 15:34, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Considering how Margaret's mother's maiden name isn't stated, you can just remove the first Jamroży after her father's name.
removed. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd change "after the win" to "after winning".
changed. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't you mean she "bagan a promotional tour in Italy"?
I believe both options are acceptable. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm 90% sure it should be in, rather than of. With stuff like that, you can ask the question "Where did she begin a promotional tour?". The answer would be "In Italy", not "Of Italy". PanagiotisZois (talk) 15:34, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
changed. ArturSik (talk) 17:15, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "for a fashion retailer Sinsay", remove the A.
removed. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "also featured in Deichman's", add the "'s".
added. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • February 10, 2018, not 10 February.

That's pretty much it. Very well-written and informative article. I even listened to "Thank You Very Much"; weird video, but the song is catchy. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:16, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PanagiotisZois thanks for your comments. ps. haha yeah, it is a bit... weird. ArturSik (talk) 14:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK, with those things out of the way, I happily give my support to this article. I may even listen to some of her other songs. Good job with the article. PanagiotisZois (talk) 22:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. ArturSik (talk) 08:05, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source spot-check from Laser brain

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As with the source review, I struggled to find things I can actually check since most of them are in languages I don't speak. The citations I could check support the text provided, and are free from plagiarism problems:

  • Fn 16a, OK
  • Fn 35, OK
  • Fn 55, OK
  • Fn 83, OK
  • Fn 99, OK (although I'd prefer we convey criticism and reviews in our own voice instead of just copying quotations)

I haven't spotted any source reliability issues, but again I'm unfamiliar with the Polish and Italian sources and can't accurately assess their reliability. --Laser brain (talk) 14:33, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for doing as much as you could have done. Really appreciate it. ArturSik (talk) 08:05, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. ArturSik (talk) 08:03, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. ArturSik (talk) 08:03, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from John

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It's looking good; I remember looking at this a couple of months ago. Do we really need During the concert, she talked about a 19-year-old boy Adrian Rypiński suffering from Duchenne muscular dystrophy whom she previously visited at home and who was unable to attend the event due to his condition? --John (talk) 23:34, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

John the whole initiative was about each celebrity becoming a "guardian angel" to a child and during the show they told the child's story and asked viewers to donate money to support them and then they sang for them, so I think mentioning only her performance wouldn't paint the whole picture. ArturSik (talk) 14:39, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the challenge in getting an article to the highest standards possible is knowing what to include and what to leave out. To what extent is this a central part of her notability? In 50 or 100 years, will this be a part of the story that is told of her? --John (talk) 17:27, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. ArturSik (talk) 18:45, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, that's appreciated. One big(gish) question and one tiny one. First, regarding her name, shouldn't we call her by the name she used at the time (Małgorzata) up to the point in her life where she changed to using her stage name? This only affects the second paragraph of the Early life and education section. Secondly, I think there's a word missing from "Polish music manager Maja Sablewska stated that Margaret has a "beautiful" timbre and interprets her lyrics indicating that she knows what she is singing about." Maybe "as"? There are a few other minor infelicities of this nature scattered through the article and once they are cleared up I will be happy to support. --John (talk) 16:49, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think the same point was made when Lady Gaga's article was up for FA and it's been decided that she should be named Gaga throughout the whole article, so maybe this would work better here as well + where exactly this word is missing? ps. English is my second language so my grammar may not always be correct. This is why I was hoping that other useres would help out with that. Regards. ArturSik (talk) 18:53, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem to do a wee last touch-up of the prose. The naming issue slightly bothers me though. "It's been decided [at another article]" isn't a reason. Let me think about it some more. --John (talk) 23:39, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Really appreciate your help. I have changed the name and removed information about her being a judge. ArturSik (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Also, your previous message got me thinking and I think that maybe it would be better to get rid of the philanthropy section because it’s not really something she’s known for and maybe only leave the information about her being featured on the charity album and just blend it into her bio. What do you think ? ArturSik (talk) 00:39, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that'd be fine. --John (talk) 07:24, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done:) ArturSik (talk) 08:49, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
John Brilliant. Thank you so so much. I really think that now, after your input, the article looks the best it ever did. Best wishes. ArturSik (talk) 23:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
John one more thing. here: ", and accused YouTube of censorship" do you think "accused" is the accurate word, I think it's a bit too strong. wouldn't it be better to say she criticised YouTube for censorship? ArturSik (talk) 00:45, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. --John (talk) 09:00, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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No comment on ALT as others have already looked at that. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 17:26, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ian Rose now that we've got 10 (!) supports, image review and the sources review is completed do you think it can be promoted? ArturSik (talk) 16:25, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given Brian's sign-off on source reliability, Andy's spotcheck, and the other recent commentary I think we're probably good to go but I won't be able to go through in detail till tomorrow -- tks for your patience. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not a problem. Thank you:) ArturSik (talk) 13:40, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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