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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Arthur Blackburn/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ealdgyth via FACBot (talk) 22 September 2020 [1].

Arthur Blackburn

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Blackburn was a soldier, lawyer, politician, and World War I Australian recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest award for valour in battle that could be awarded to a member of the Australian armed forces at the time. As a private he, along with another soldier, made it farthest inland on the day of the Gallipoli landing, 25 April 1915. He went on to be commissioned and served on the Western Front. He was awarded the VC for gallantry during the Battle of Pozières, when, commanding 50 men, he led four separate sorties to drive the Germans from a strong point using hand grenades, capturing 370 yards (340 m) of trench. He became the first South Australian to receive the award. Discharged suffering from illness, he had a successful career as a part-time soldier, lawyer and coroner between the wars, and briefly as a politician. He commanded a machine gun battalion in World War II in the Syria-Lebanon campaign. His unit was captured by the Japanese on Java in early 1942 by which time he was a brigadier, and he spent the rest of the war in captivity in various places. After the war he served on the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration. Blackburn is the second last in my project to get all the South Australian VC and George Cross recipients to FA. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:03, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D

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Quick comment I'd suggest replacing the map in the 'Java' section with either of the maps on page 498 and 500 of the Australian Army official history, which is now PD [2]. I suspect that the volume of the official history on the fighting in Syria and Lebanon might also have more useful maps. Nick-D (talk) 01:15, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nick. Will check them out. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Swapped out the existing maps and replaced with OH ones. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:04, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As a proper review, I was impressed by this article when it passed A-class, so am interested to read it now - not least as it covers an outstanding Australian I know little about. I'd like to offer the following comments and suggestions:

  • "pursued a part-time military career" - not sure about 'part-time' here, not least as this was the dominant way people served in the Army at the time.
Good point, dropped. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also briefly served as a member of the South Australian parliament" - I'd suggest giving the years of service
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " a detachment of 50 men from 16 Platoon, D Company, 10th Battalion" - wouldn't 50 men have been the entire platoon? (likely with augmentation?)
changed to "based on". I think the reality is that he might have started with his own platoon, but they just kept feeding troops into his task, approaching half of the company by the end. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the men of this organisation, armed with government-issued rifles and bayonets, were deployed by the South Australia Police to help quell violence between union and non-union labour on the docks" - but it's previously noted that they were formed to protect the un-unionised labour? The deployment of what seems to have been a well armed and led paramilitary to tilt the balance in an industrial dispute seems pretty extraordinary, even for the times.
dropped "between union and non-union labour", yes there was a bit of a "red scare" at the time. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sceptical about whether this force really quelled violence given it was aligned with one side of the dispute (e.g., it likely intimidated the union members into submission), but I presume that this is what the source says? Stuff like this helps to explain the provisions in the modern Defence Act which prohibit reservists being used in industrial disputes. Nick-D (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Good point Nick-D, it may be overstating it. There had been violence, but given they didn't actually bayonet anyone, would you be happy with "deter"? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
how about something like "the men of this organisation, armed with government-issued rifles and bayonets, were deployed by the South Australia Police to intervene in the dispute between union and non-union labour on the docks"? Nick-D (talk) 06:55, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:06, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Blackburn was promoted to substantive colonel on 1 September 1942, but retained his temporary rank of brigadier whilst in captivity" - did he know that he'd been promoted at the time?
He was temporarily promoted to brigadier on 21 February 1942 (already in the article), but it isn't clear if he knew about the substantive promotion to colonel at the time, because he barely got any letters from home until early 1944. Faulkner doesn't provide any more info. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can the locations of the other POW camps in Formosa Blackburn was held in be added to the map?
I did look at that, but the problem is these were the Japanese names, and they were changed to Chinese ones after 1945, and fair play to the Taiwanese, they haven't spent any effort on recording the Japanese names of localities by the look of entries on the subject here. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and yes it is difficult to track wartime locations in Taiwan given the number of different names which have been used and the surprisingly modest amount of attention historians have directed towards Formosa in World War II. Nick-D (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was appointed as one of the fifteen inaugural conciliation commissioners of the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration, a position he held until 1955" - did this attract any controversy given his role in strike breaking? (presumably not given the amount of time which had passed and his status as a war hero several times over)
Good point. Faulkner doesn't mention any, but I found an Advertiser article from 1947 in which the ALP state conference expressed "grave alarm", added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think you'd be able to find any commentary here - Trove certainly is a fantastic resource. Nick-D (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how to do this. I couldn't find an alternative, but found a Blackburn Street in Moorooka Qld and added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Nick-D. I reckon I've got all these, what do you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:23, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. The ACT Government used to have a very functional website where you could look up who streets are named after (a high proportion of streets in Canberra are named after notable Australians, and I think that all VC recipients have a Canberran street named after them), and it's a shame that it's been decommissioned. Nick-D (talk) 23:50, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm very pleased to support this article's nomination. The standard of the articles on South Australian VC recipients has been high, but I think that this is the pick of the litter given that it provides a very well rounded account of this person's life. Nick-D (talk) 10:38, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nick, that means a lot. I am rather pleased with this one. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:55, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass

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All images appear to be free and are appropriately documented. (t · c) buidhe 06:05, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review—pass

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Comments (not comprehensive)
  • "His time in Parliament showed Blackburn to be a man of few words," this is an opinion—"few words" compared to whom? Should probably be attributed to the author.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that the Geneva Convention 1929 was signed but not ratified by Japan, so it was not legally bound to the letter of the treaty.
I'm don't want to get into the universal applicability of customary international humanitarian law here, have just revised it to read "and because Japan was not a party to the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War and did not follow its stipulations". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added "willing", meaning that he willingly participated, despite misgivings that only physical perpetrators were being tried. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Hog Farm

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May wind up being claimed for the WikiCup. Hog Farm Bacon 02:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The O. G. (Old German) trench system consisted of two lines of German trenches that were objectives of the Australian assault." - Is it just me, or does there appear to be an extraneous space between G. and (?
Yes, well spotted. Deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was admitted to the Bar on " - I've previously seen bar lowercase most of the time, although that may be an American English thing
I've had reviewers say both, decapped for now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "before embarking on the SS Ascanius" - I've had it stated in reviews of articles I've worked on that "the" shouldn't be in front of ship names unless the ship class is given. I think it's explained decently at Talk:Battle of Grand Gulf/GA1
Yes, dropped definite article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " initially in a quiet sector of the front line" - Which specific region?
Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "placed on the seconded list" - What's the seconded list? Is there an applicable link?
Linked Secondment. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:35, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Blackburn returned to legal practice in early 1917," - Is there more specific time frame available? Surely he wouldn't start this before his honorable discharge, right?
The sources don't say, but he was probably on leave once he got back to Adelaide, and there were probably no rules that said he couldn't just go back to his old job prior to discharge. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he became Freemason with the St Peter's Collegiate Lodge. - Shouldn't this be "a Freemason"?
Quite. Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "established to assist the dependents of deceased ex-servicemen, he later became its second president" - My gut instinct says this should be a semicolon, not a comma
Mine too. Changed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In 1933, Blackburn became the coroner of the city of Adelaide, a position he held for fourteen years." - So he was coroner until 1947? Even during his POW term and military service? It seems like he would have been replaced so somebody could have actively held that office
Tweaked this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "where it embarked on the SS Ile de France" - Another ship comment, see above
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More to come. Hog Farm Bacon 02:24, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Also from the 15th, D Company" - Also on the 15th?
yep, fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Vichy French did not fire on them" - Is why known?
Probably didn't want to give away their positions, but the sources don't say. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on the SS Orcades. - The ship again. Also in the next paragraph. You did drop the the in "they embarked on SS Ionian " which is much earlier in the article
Most remiss of me, all fixed I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Blackburn was to lead "Boostforce", the objective of which he labelled a "suicide mission", " - I'm assuming Boostforce is the force at Oosthaven defending the airfield, but this should be clearer if so.
Clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Against it was arrayed a Dutch force of the same strength, but with a ratio of one Dutch to 40 locally recruited troops, and many of the local troops viewed the Japanese as liberators from Dutch colonialism rather than an enemy to be resisted." - The ratio clause doesn't jibe well with the use of "and"
Modified and split sentence, see what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "6 stone 4 pounds" - What's this in pounds? Stones aren't a particularly common measurement in the United States. There's another instance of this earlier
14 pounds in a stone. Added the pounds conversions in parentheses. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, a dag from a previous version of the article. Removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mention that the Battle of Pozières was part of the Battle of the Somme.
Added to the lead and body. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all, I believe. Willing to discuss any of these. Hog Farm Bacon 02:56, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for the review, Hog Farm. All done I reckon. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent article. Supporting. Hog Farm Bacon 13:23, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Noswall59

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A few comments about the source formatting:

  • Books: Anderson (1995): Washington DC -> Washington, DC for consistency with comma in Australian locations
Fixed, also some others. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Newspapers: "APPOINTMENT CRITICISED" is shouting at me; capitalise each word for consistency
Done, very remiss of me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Papers: why is Rose Park wikilinked in Jaensch when no other place name is?
Great question. Delinked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Websites: what is AustLit? Should the University of Queensland be the publisher in this instance?
It is a teaching resource website published by UQ. Made UQ the publisher. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Websites: for the two Blackburn references in the ADB, the titles (i.e. Black, Arthur Seaford (1892-1960) and Blackburn, Sir Charles Bickerton (1874-1972)) should be formatted in double quotes because they are articles/web pages.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Websites: replace brisbane.qld.gov.au with the website name for constistency (i.e. Brisbane City Council), then drop the publisher.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

General comment: I am confused by your styling of acronyms. Do you use full stops between letters? Do you use spaces between them? In the references alone we have Washington DC, Bean, C.E.W., Arthur Blackburn, VC, 10th Battalion, A.I.F., "Oxford Wedding for S.A. Couple", C. R. B. Blackburn, R. A. Blackburn. A cursory glance over the rest of the article reveals VC and AIF, but O. G. and R. A. Blackburn. You should decide on a rule and apply it consistently. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 11:37, 13 August 2020 (UTC).[reply]

I believe VC and AIF don't have periods, as they are acronyms. O.G. and R. A. Blackburn are initialisms, so they have the periods. PM67 may have other input on this, too. Hog Farm Bacon 13:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed Bean, but with the titles of books and newspaper articles I have followed the formatting of the title, which I consider to be the correct approach. In the body of the article I have been consistent with not using full stops except for initials of names, ie AIF and VC, but C. B. Hardy. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Points addressed I think, Noswall59. Thanks for having a look! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, the formatting changes all look good to me. I've made corrections to the ANB (swapping out title attribute for chapter). Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 08:48, 14 August 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Coord note

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I've added this to the urgents list to hopefully get a review or two from outside the subject area. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Ensuring you saw the below comments. --Laser brain (talk) 13:10, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

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  • "he and another scout were credited with advancing the furthest inland". This is so qualified in the main text (probably the furthest of any Australian whose movements are known) that I would delete.
  • "Blackburn returned to legal practice". This implies that you have already mentioned legal practice. I would mention above.
  • "also pursued a military career during the interwar period. He also served as a member of the South Australian parliament" also...also
  • You refer to him being admitted to the bar and then becoming a solicitor. This is confusing in a British context as barrister and solicitor are separate branches of the legal profession. The link to Bar (legal) is not helpful as it only covers the system in the US and the UK. I suggest linking to Call to the bar, which explains that in South Australia the two branches are fused.
  • "The position which Blackburn and Robin reached was beyond the crest of a feature later known as "Scrubby Knoll", part of "Third (or Gun) Ridge", which was the ultimate objective of the 3rd Brigade covering force, of which it fell well short." This is confusing. Are you saying that the brigade did not get near its objective, but Blackburn and Robin got beyond it? Also, as Robin was of senior rank, would Blackburn not have been acting under his command?
    • Yes, that is what I am saying. Can you suggest a better way of getting the meaning across? The 10th Battalion scout platoon was made up of soldiers with high levels of initiative, so while Robin was theoretically one rank higher than Blackburn, I doubt there was much in the way of orders being given by Robin to Blackburn in this situation, they were just told to go hell for leather for Gun Ridge and tried to follow their orders. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:40, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about "The 3rd Brigade covering force fell well short of its ultimate objective, the crest of a feature later known as "Scrubby Knoll", part of "Third (or Gun) Ridge", but Blackburn and Robin, who were sent ahead as scouts, got beyond it." And delete the reference to Blackburn being a scout above. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:30, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:30, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

G’day @FAC coordinators: this one now looks good to go. Can I please have a dispensation for a fresh nom? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:04, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, go ahead PM. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:56, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz

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Hi PM, sorry to duck in at the end of this review. Just a couple of very minor suggested tweaks / questions...

Thanks for telling his story. Regards, JennyOz (talk) 11:41, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review, Jenny. It is always nice to have a non-military specialist look over one of my FACs. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:52, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I enjoy reading them and learning more each time! I am happy to support. Thanks, JennyOz (talk) 05:32, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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