Wikipedia:Featured article review

Reviewing featured articles This page is for the review and improvement of featured articles (FAs) that may no longer meet the featured article criteria. FAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted. There are three requisite stages in the process, to which all users are welcome to contribute. 1. Raise issues at the article's talk page In this step, concerned editors attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article. Concerned editors should give article watchers two to three weeks to respond to concerns before nominating the article for Featured article review. During this step, articles are not yet listed on this page (but they can be added to Wikipedia:Featured article review/notices given, and removed from there once posted here). 2. Featured article review (FAR) In this step, possible improvements are discussed without declarations of "keep" or "delist". The aim is to improve articles rather than to demote them. Nominators must specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies. The ideal review would address the issues raised and close with no change in status. Reviews can improve articles in various ways: articles may need updating, formatting, and general copyediting. More complex issues, such as a failure to meet current standards of prose, comprehensiveness, factual accuracy, and neutrality, may also be addressed. The featured article review coordinators—Nikkimaria, Casliber, and DrKay—determine either that there is consensus to close during this second stage, or that there is insufficient consensus to do so and so therefore the nomination should be moved to the third stage. 3. Featured article removal candidate (FARC) An article is never listed as a removal candidate without first undergoing a review. In this third stage, participants may declare "keep" or "delist", supported by substantive comments, and further time is provided to overcome deficiencies. Reviewers who declare "delist" should be prepared to return towards the end of the process to strike out their objections if they have been addressed. The featured article review coordinators determine whether there is consensus for a change in the status of a nomination, and close the listing accordingly. The FAR and FARC stages typically last two to three weeks, or longer where changes are ongoing and it seems useful to continue the process. Nominations are moved from the review period to the removal list, unless it is very clear that editors feel the article is within criteria. Given that extensions are always granted on request, as long as the article is receiving attention, editors should not be alarmed by an article moving from review to the removal candidates' list. To contact the FAR coordinators, please leave a message on the FAR talk page, or use the {{@FAR}} notification template elsewhere. Urgent reviews are listed here. Older reviews are stored in the archive. Table of Contents – This page: , Checklinks, Check redirects, Dablinks

Featured content: Featured articles ← Featured lists Featured pictures Featured topics Featured article candidates (FAC) Featured article criteria Featured article log Featured article statistics Featured article review (FAR) Former featured articles Unreviewed featured articles/2020 Today's featured article (TFA): This month's queue About Today's featured article Recent TFAs and statistics Current TFA requests Potential TFA requests TFA oddities Most viewed TFAs Featured articles yet to appear as TFA Script to track TFA recent changes Featured article tools: Mentoring for FAC Nominators of featured articles promoted Recent changes to featured articles Random featured article

Nominating an article for FAR The number of FARs that can be placed on the page is limited as follows: No more than one nomination per week by the same nominator. No more than five nominations by the same nominator on the page at one time, unless permission for more is given by a FAR coordinator. Nominators are strongly encouraged to assist in the process of improvement; they should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days) and should avoid segmenting review pages. Three to six months is regarded as the minimum time between promotion and nomination here, unless there are extenuating circumstances such as a radical change in article content. Before nomination, raise issues at talk page of the article. Attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article over at least a two-week period. Articles in this step are not listed on this page. Place {{subst:FAR}} at the top of the talk page of the nominated article. Write "FAR listing" in the edit summary box. Click on "Publish changes". From the FAR template, click on the red "initiate the review" link. You will see pre-loaded information; please leave that text. Below the preloaded title, write which users and projects you'll notify (see step 6 below), and your reason(s) for nominating the article, specifying the FA criterion/criteria that are at issue, then click on "Publish changes". Click here, and place your nomination at the top of the list of nominated articles, {{Wikipedia:Featured article review/name of nominated article/archiveN}}, filling in the exact name of the nominated article and the archive number N. Click on "Publish changes". Notify relevant parties by adding {{subst:FARMessage|ArticleName|alt=FAR subpage}} ~~~~ (for example, {{subst:FARMessage|Superman|alt=Superman/archive1}} ~~~~) to relevant talk pages (insert article name); note that the template does not automatically create the talkpage section header. Relevant parties include main contributors to the article (identifiable through XTools), the editor who originally nominated the article for Featured Article status (identifiable through the Featured Article Candidate link in the Article Milestones), and any relevant WikiProjects (identifiable through the talk page banners, but there may be other Projects that should be notified). The Notified:message at the top of the FAR should indicate who you have notified and include a link with the date of the pre-notification given on article talk.

Featured article reviews

Gertie the Dinosaur

Notified: Curly Turkey, WikiProject Animation, WikiProject Fictional characters, WikiProject Film, WikiProject 20th Century Studios

The article is clearly outdated and needs more scholar sources to be added. The prose isn't FA quality + some of the sources aren't formatted properly. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 05:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Keep without FARC. @Boneless Pizza!: i don't see anything wrong with the article, perfect number of scholar sources (books and journals) and i don't really expect an article about a 12-minute 1914 film to have any present information. All I see wrong is a page needed tag—which I fixed. Can you elaborate? 750h+ 12:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

The quotes at background section should be worded + the content section seems to be too flimsy, while the reception section isn't that organized either. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 12:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Boneless Pizza!:} fixed the number of quotes in the background section, I don't really expect a 12-minute animated film to have a large content section, and I've organised the reception section. 750h+ 02:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Not sure with the prose, though I think it is best to wait other editors of what they think about this article now. Thanks! 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 02:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I've done some of the source formatting. I'll have a look a proper look at the prose when I have some more time. One note: I can't verify the information on the Variety source; it says p. 26 but I can't see anything on the short on that page. Sgubaldo (talk) 14:47, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

I do find myself agreeing with 750h+ though. I had a brief look and there's not really any other worthwhile sources that need to be added. Sgubaldo (talk) 14:06, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough. What about the prose? 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 17:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the Merkl 2007 source is self-published, but most of what it's supporting is specific dates that individual comics were published, mainly in footnotes. It's unclear to me what is outdated about this article or what scholarly sources are missing. I've made one edit to correct a prose error. Hog Farm _Talk 21:28, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Update:I've rechecked the article abd found no issues. Though, I'm not yet sure with the prose. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 21:36, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the prose could do with a copyedit, but I do not have the time to do so right now. Sgubaldo (talk) 22:03, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

I did manage to fix the Variety source. It was linking to the wrong page. Sgubaldo (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Matthew Brettingham

Notified: Giano, DrKay, WikiProject England, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Architecture, WikiProject Visual arts, 2023-08-13

I am nominating this featured article for review because there is uncited text, particularly in the "Legacy" section. I'm also curious if additional sources can be found to expand upon this article, although this is difficult due to the similarity with Matthew Brettingham the Younger. Z1720 (talk) 16:21, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Giano, the main author, has not been around for a long time. The uncited bits seem few and fairly trivial to me. Johnbod (talk) 20:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Giano may be inactive, but still appreciates notifications; User talk:SandyGeorgia/arch120#Harriet Arbuthnot. And we can hold out hope. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:12, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

This one is certainly salvageable. I've added 'end-of-paragraph' cites and removed the tags. There's more that could be done, but unfortunately I don't have access to any of my book sources at present (all packed up and in store for a move). Let me know if more is needed. KJP1 (talk) 14:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

KJP1 If we put this on hold 'til after your move, would you be interested ? How long would that be ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:47, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Sandy - I'd be happy to pick it up. Like all of Giano's work, the content and prose is very high quality. But it is "cite-lite" by 2023 standards, and it could also do with a bit of updating - the London townhouses section ends with a reference to the 2007 state of Cambridge House, (although that development was still unfinished in 2021, [1] and I think it's incomplete now)! Unfortunately, my move is taking me quite a long way, and I won't see my books again until early 2024. Now, if you can put it on the backburner until then, I can commit to picking it up thereafter. KJP1 (talk) 16:20, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. KjP1 has dealt with most of the specific review points anyway. Johnbod (talk) 17:11, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Hold: Nikkimaria would early 2024 be too long for a hold here ? KJP1 has restored other architectural articles at FAR. Maybe we could revisit in February or March ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:14, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

On hold until the new year. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks both - It’s on my list and I’ll pick it up as soon as I’m reunited with my books. KJP1 (talk) 05:42, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi, thought I'd just note that a reference to this FAR came through my watchlist and I noticed the lack of a portrait for Brettingham. Having found one I've added it to the article with an infobox, but please feel free to change/revert/replace as you think appropriate. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:56, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

KJP1, what's your timeline looking like? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:07, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Z1720, Nikki - sorry, this is all moving slower than I would like. The builders are due in early March, and all the books are remaining in storage until they are done, which I think will be around end March. I have, sans books, managed to get it from 28 cites when Z1720 sent it to FAR to 68. I agree there is more that could be done, but I wonder if they could have another look to see if their "cite-lite" concerns still remain? I am absolutely willing to continue to work on it as soon as I can access my books, but can't guarantee when that will be. KJP1 (talk) 10:02, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The citation concerns have been resolved. @KJP1: are some of your books available at archive.org? Z1720 (talk) 16:25, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

KJP1? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:04, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria - sorry, I'm no nearer getting back access to my books, I'm afraid. Delays in the building works mean they are all still in boxes. I think the main concern re. uncited text has been addressed, certainly Z1720 seems content. If that's not enough, I think it will probably need to go to FAR, as I just can't be certain when I will have access to the books again. I could definitely do more on it, but I just can't say when. KJP1 (talk) 06:25, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Z1720, given the changes made so far do you feel FAR is still necessary? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720: ↑ Nikkimaria (talk) 14:21, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

It remains a page which is fit for purpose: that is for anyone seeking info on Brettingham. I’m sure the original editor is grateful for those attempting to patch things up to retain FA status, but really that little star was never all it was cracked up to be. So let it go. Like all Wikipedia pages, it will be attacked/edited by pedants, idiots, infoboxobsessives and, occasionally, architectural historians. Who knows what will emerge from the ruins. AdamBlack89 (talk) 20:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I was browsing through WP:URFA/2020 and noticed this one was still on hold despite it having been so over a year. Pinging @FAR coordinators: and @Z1720. Sgubaldo (talk) 17:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I also saw this when browsing through URFA/2020 earlier this week but forgot to act on it. Not sure what the status of this is....Z1720 (talk) 19:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I see that this was reposted to FAR. I will try to take a look at this. Any additional comments are of course welcome, please don't wait for me. Z1720 (talk) 19:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

White dwarf

Notified: Spacepotato, Meli thev, WikiProject Physics, WikiProject Astronomy. Noticed: 2024-01-26

I am nominating this featured article for review because there are uncited passages in the article, including entire sections. There are also lots of sources listed in "Further reading", indicating that the article is not a complete comprehensive overview of all scholarly material, or that random potential sources have been added that are not necessary for the article. This should be evaluated. Z1720 (talk) 14:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment, I am a little confused by this nomination. When I quickly checked the article I saw 3 paragraphs which had no sources, which is not a lot. In addition I see absolutely nothing wrong with a large further reading section for this topic. White dwarfs have been extensively studied, so there are presumably many books (texts, monographs, PhD theses) which go into the details of the math etc (I am not an expert in this area). I don't think that level of detail is needed in a WP article, it is exactly what should be left for further reading. I note from the talk page that the FAR nomination was because the page had a few problems that needed fixing. Are they really that massive? I have seen pages with much, much worse issues.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ldm1954 (talk • contribs) 15:34, November 24, 2024 (UTC)

• @Ldm1954: An sourced paragraphs means that every individual sentence in that paragraph is also unsourced. Sometimes this can be solved with a single citation, but other times multiple sources need to be searched and evaluated to verify the information. For the Further reading section: if those sources are good enough to recommend to our editors, why are they not used as sources in the article? Since new high-quality sources on this topic are constantly being printed, some of the older sources can be replaced by the newer ones. As for worse articles: if there are worse FA articles, I encourage you to notice them and bring them to FAR so that they can also be fixed up. Instructions are at WP:FAR. Z1720 (talk) 15:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720, sorry, I strongly disagree about replacing older sources just because there are newer ones. The quality matters. There is already a massive issue with people not reading the literature, I think WP must be careful not to make this worse.

Also, context is everything and science WP is not that different from an academic article. While I have been called a physicist (as well as many other things, some but not all complimentary) I don't know this topic well enough to judge how good or bad the sourcing is. Yes, a few paras need sources, a little repair is appropriate.

I know of articles where sources are included which do not verify the information; one which I nominated and was recently removed for this is Heavy metals. However, that's a digression. Ldm1954 (talk) 20:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I concur with not replacing older sources just because there are newer ones. It makes sense to replace older sources if and when new discoveries have made them obsolete, or if they are so old that they have become inaccessible, but novelty for novelty's sake isn't really a good way to cover science. Sometimes the best book is an old book that has stood the test of time. XOR'easter (talk) 20:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the issues being raised here. Is it expected that every sentence has a little blue clicky linky number, and is regarded as "uncited" otherwise? Is everything after a footnote in a paragraph presumed to be unsupported? Or has someone actually gone through and checked each of the 197 provided sources and found material in the article that is not supported by any of them? Likewise, where the "Further reading" section is concerned, that sounds like an argument that no FA can have a "Further reading" section at all. I don't see how the presence of a "Further reading" section necessarily indicates that an article fails to be comprehensive, particularly when (as in this case) the items are labeled by topic and the topics are things already discussed in the article, like "Variability" and "Magnetic field". Maybe it needs improvement, but that has to be decided on an item-by-item basis, rather than on broad strokes. XOR'easter (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

@XOR'easter: A footnote is placed after the information it is verifying, and only verify information before it, up to the preceding footnote or the beginning of the paragraph. This means there should be a footnote at the end of every paragraph. A footnote can cover multiple sentences that preceded it. I have added cn tags to the article to the places I think need citations. I think some can be resolved by moving the footnote to the end of the sentence, but the source needs to be checked to ensure that it does verify the information. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

As a minor point, duplicate sourcing means that you don't necessarily have to have a source at the end of every paragraph:

Per WP:PAIC, citations should be placed at the end of the text that they support. Material that is repeated multiple times in a paragraph does not require an inline citation for every mention. If you say an elephant is a mammal more than once, provide one only at the first instance. Avoid cluttering text with redundant citations like this...

I will repeat that I agree that some minor tweaking would be good, but I don't see this as coming close to requiring a FAR. Ldm1954 (talk) 02:14, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The end of the paragraph requirement has come from WP:GA, which requires a citation at the end of every paragraph. Since GAs are lower requirements than FAs, its requirement became a defacto requirement for featured articles. I would also be concerned if only one citation was used for multiple paragraphs when there are multiple sources available to verify the information, and multiple sources should be consulted to ensure that the article is comprehensive. Whether this article "should" have an FAR or not, let's bring the article to meet the FA criteria and we can make this a quick keep. Z1720 (talk) 02:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused. The GA criteria say, All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). That no later than leaves room for it to be earlier. I don't like GA requirements being "de facto" FA requirements; to my way of thinking, the FA criteria should be the FA criteria, and each additional page that has to be read in order to understand those criteria is a problem, all the more so when the "requirements" are based on an informal notion of precedence that the FA criteria don't even mention! So, what I'm seeing here is an interpretation I don't understand of a rule whose applicability seems ad hoc.

Going line by line, I'd probably agree that the current text is a little under-cited, but this whole approach sounds like the same prioritization of busywork that made me give up on GA reviews. 90% of the energy goes into marginal improvements, and the status of the article lives or dies based on changes that range from slight convenience benefits to cosmetic alterations. XOR'easter (talk) 20:56, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

@XOR'easter: There can be a citation in the middle of a paragraph. A citation only verifies the prose that proceeds it. There needs to be a citation at the end of very paragraph to verify the information at the end of the paragraph: otherwise this information uncited. I have added cn tags to the article where citations are needed. Z1720 (talk) 22:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Where is it written that a citation only verifies the prose that immediately precedes it? That isn't a standard mandated by any other academic writing I am aware of, and Wikipedia's own documentation doesn't lay down a hard line about it. WP:PAIC is about spacing, not verifiability. Wikipedia:Citing_sources, which is where the FA criteria links in criterion 2(c), says The citation should be added close to the material it supports, offering text–source integrity. WP:CITEDENSE gives an example and then says, Everything in that paragraph deals with the same, single subject from the same source and can therefore be supported by a single inline citation. The inline citation could be placed at any sensible location, but the end of the paragraph is the most common choice (emphasis added). It seems like a common practice that is generally a reasonable idea is being elevated to an ironclad rule. XOR'easter (talk) 22:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, I've gotten it down to 2 {{citation needed}} tags (and cleaned up various other small matters). One of those might be satisfied with this book. XOR'easter (talk) 05:11, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:CONSECUTIVECITE: "Per WP:PAIC, citations should be placed at the end of the text that they support." WP:PAIC: "All reference tags should immediately follow the text to which the footnote applies, with no intervening space." Footnotes are created with ref tags. Z1720 (talk) 01:08, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I looked at WP:PAIC because it was mentioned above. Like I said, it's talking about not putting space between a footnote and a punctuation mark, not about verifiability. Reading WP:PAIC in the latter way would make it inconsistent with WP:CITEDENSE, which says that any sensible location is good. It would also be inconsistent with what Wikipedia:Citing sources says a little further down the page: The distance between material and its source is a matter of editorial judgment. And it may be inconsistent with WP:CITEBUNDLE, which allows for moving a footnote further from the material it supports and spelling out which source supports which claim. So, if the strict rule that a citation only verifies the text that immediately precedes it is correct, Wikipedia's documentation is inconsistent about this and needs to be fixed. But I can't for the life of me imagine that the strict rule is one to which we need to adhere in all circumstances. Anyone reading deep down into an article about astrophysics will be capable of looking a few words backwards to find a blue clicky linky number. Suppose that a paragraph is structured like so: "There are three ways that a foobar can be initialized. First, ... Second, ... Third, ..." Does it make a substantial difference if the blue clicky linky number follows the first sentence or comes at the end of the paragraph? Frankly, that comes down to a matter of taste. In a mathematics article, a section or a subsection might start something like, "A non-Riemannian hypersquare can be defined using the axioms given by Smith." If a footnote to Smith's book follows immediately after that line instead of waiting until the end of the paragraph, there's no actual loss of verifiability. The placement is only cosmetic. And the notion that moving it to the end would prevent the text from going out of sync with the source in later edits is wishful thinking. It's been all of two days since I've seen a counterexample to that, and I haven't been watching many pages at all. XOR'easter (talk) 05:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I have addressed all of the {{cn}} tags. XOR'easter (talk) 08:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:CITEDENSE "is an information page. It is not...one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines" If it differs from PAIC or other guidelines, it is overridden as it has not achieved the same consensus of a policy or guideline. WP:CITEBUNDLE says "the sources can be placed at the end of the sentence...Or they can be bundled into one footnote at the end of the sentence or paragraph, like this". It does not say to put the citations before the information it is verifying. Z1720 (talk) 01:15, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The P in WP:PAIC stands for punctuation. The subsection heading is "Punctuation and footnotes". It's there to say that there shouldn't be a space in between a punctuation mark and a footnote. Invoking it for any other purpose just doesn't make sense. It's true that WP:CITEBUNDLE doesn't say to "put the citations before the information", but it does say that when each support a different portion of the preceding text, we can bundle them together and not have them immediately follow the text. So, if we read WP:PAIC in the way that you do, then it conflicts with WP:CITEBUNDLE, which is part of Wikipedia:Citing sources, a guideline. That reading of WP:PAIC also conflicts with the statement in the Wikipedia:Citing sources guideline that The distance between material and its source is a matter of editorial judgment. The only way WP:PAIC can be consistent with the actual guideline is if it pertains only to punctuation and spacing.

I mean, I'm fine with putting the footnotes after the text they support. It's seldom a bad idea, and if one absorbs Wikipedian house style by reading Wikipedia articles, it's the practice that one will follow. No problem there. I just think that elevating reasonable rules of thumb to rigid standards is poor form, and questions like "Is this article an example of the best our community has to offer?" shouldn't be answered on such grounds. XOR'easter (talk) 02:49, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

• The "Further reading" section has been trimmed of the most obviously superfluous items. XOR'easter (talk) 00:21, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I think many of the entries could (and probably should) be converted into citations. Praemonitus (talk) 16:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Tasha Yar

Notified: WikiProject Fictional characters, WikiProject Star Trek, Miyagawa

I am nominating this featured article for review because...The article doesn't meet the modern standard of FA right now. The article is missing a lot of content like its appeareances section for example. When you search for the character in the "news" section, a lot of content needs to be added, mostly for updating. It also used low-quality sources like Tor.com and IndieWire + the prose/writing at reception isn't FA quality. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 02:41, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Not sure what the complaint is about Tor.com (it's fine, as far as I know, at least by pop media coverage standards? but not super-familiar), but even if we take a dim view and presume that it's on par with Forbes Contributor sections, WP:EXPERTSPS applies here. It's only cited once and it's citing Keith DeCandido, who is IMO a leading expert / commentator on Star Trek, and a published author. I've certainly cited DeCandido before elsewhere. (I agree the IndieWire listicle is weak, but it's just one sentence, so I think that can just be deleted.) SnowFire (talk) 12:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Further comment: Interestingly, WP:FILMRS lists IndieWire as usable, and it's cited in over 500 different articles, so I'm not sure it's that bad... but I agree that source should go, not because it's IndieWire, but because the article sucks. Went and commented it out. Also added a recent-ish IGN source. For the "Appearances" section, it would probably be better to cite secondary sources than the episode directly, so that DUEWEIGHT can be applied for irrelevant cameos vs. major appearances... but... I suspect this will involve citing DeCandido even more, for the record (as a bit of FUTON bias, although I know there's various dead tree TNG guidebooks out there too.) SnowFire (talk) 04:42, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Toa Payoh ritual murders

Notified: Jappalang, WikiProject Singapore, WikiProject Crime

I am nominating this featured article for review because of lack of sourcing and lack of page numbers for verifiability, as well as prose and style issues. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:13, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I could probably resolve some of the citation formatting issues, but due to how access to newspapers is in Singapore resolving the other issues will be very difficult for anyone who does not live in Singapore. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Personally at first glance it's still in decent shape for an old FA, albeit with just a couple of uncited statements which can either be removed or looked up on NewspaperSG. But I can only devote some energy into this if given some time.--ZKang123 (talk) 04:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Will assist as well. – robertsky (talk) 05:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Move to FARC, issues largely unaddressed. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Ocean sunfish

Notified: PaladinWhite, Kodiak Blackjack, Fishes, 2024-03-31

I am nominating this featured article for review because the naming section is uncited, numerous tags throughout the article of various issues, and a "Conservation" section is missing. The article would also benefit from a search of more recent sources in order to add the most up-to-date information to the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:47, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC so significant progress to address the above concerns. Z1720 (talk) 15:16, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Does need some work definitely. Taking off Coordinator hat with this one. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Tim Duncan

Notified: WikiProject National Basketball Association, [diff for talk page notification]

Back in September, I messaged on the talk page about concerns regarding the article. It was promoted to FA last 2007, and has been 17 years since. Now, the article has issues about prose and sourcing. No responses on the talk page. ScarletViolet tc 14:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide more details per WP:FAR, specifically: Nominators must specify the featured article criteria that are at issue and should propose remedies. Thanks. —Bagumba (talk) 15:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Some of the paragraphs lack citations. Also, what makes slamduncan.com and jockbio.com reliable sources? ScarletViolet tc 08:45, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

If I look at the current version, every paragraph in the body has at least one citation (and most have more). Sports Illustrated said SlamDuncan.com was his personal website.[2] JockBio had no objections at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 126 § Jockbio.com. —Bagumba (talk) 09:53, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: There needs to be a citation at the end of every paragraph, minimum. A citation in the middle of a paragraph does not verify the information that comes after it. Z1720 (talk) 16:27, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720: I didn't see that explictly at WP:FACR, but at least it's an actionable item. —Bagumba (talk) 16:40, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: While not explicitly stated, it is covered under 1c. Since this is a BLP, citations to verify information are doubly important. Z1720 (talk) 17:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Seems like the second bullet raised on the talk page is now resolved, and I'm not seeing any missing citation paragraphs except this one: "In that game, Duncan scored 25 points in the first half, his biggest haul in a half of an NBA Finals game. However, the Spurs lost the game in overtime, and then lost the deciding seventh game.". If someone familiar with the subject matter can replace the jockbio cites and take a look at cleaning up some of the other citations & duplicate links, add address this sentence, that might cover it. Caleb Stanford (talk) 16:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Trafford Park

Notified: Parrot of Doom, Eric Corbett, WikiProject Greater Manchester, WikiProject UK geography, 06-08-2024

I am nominating this featured article for review because there are uncited statements and paragraphs, the lead is long and could be better formatted. The "Current and future transport" and "Political representation" sections are underdeveloped, and the "History" section stops at 2008. There is no "Demographics" section, although I do not know if this is possible to obtain from census or other data. Z1720 (talk) 15:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Drmies removed the strike out of Eric Corbett's name with this edit. The strike-out is to indicate that a notice was not sent to that editor for the stated reason. Z1720 (talk) 13:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes: removed as an unnecessary badge of shame. Drmies (talk) 14:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@John: I see that you did some edits to this article. Are you interested in bringing this back to FA status? Z1720 (talk) 16:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes. John (talk) 17:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@John: Awesome. Feel free to ping me when ready for a re-review. Z1720 (talk) 17:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Wilco. I'm a little busy in real life but I should get to it this week.John (talk) 19:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry this has taken longer than I anticipated. I'll get to it soon. John (talk) 15:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Move to FARC Concerns remain, no edits since October. Z1720 (talk) 03:54, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

• @John: Are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Lemurs of Madagascar (book)

Notified: Maky (page creator/nominator; formerly "VisionHolder"), Primates, Madagascar

"Bloated article; uses the [Mittermeier] book that is the subject of article 44 times, out of about the 60 references given. Contains excessive detail and primary sourcing."

— Possibly (talk · contribs), May 2021 (links added for context by yours truly)

Cleanup-tag note says it all. Original article creator/FA nominator, Maky (talk · contribs), has been on WP in highly reduced capacity since late 2015.

P.S. Can't believe it's been 17 years and change since I last sent a page for review... Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 07:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

If folks think it merits keeping in some form, I'd be happy to take a pass at cutting it down -- way down. Much of it reads as puffery, and a lot of it redundant. I think there's some factual information that would be worth keeping, though.

I'm not in the habit of gutting a page like I would want to do with this one, so just putting that out there. Monkeywire (talk) 19:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

@Monkeywire: I'd support someone going through and cutting down the prose: there is too much puffery, and the "Overview" section should probably be renamed to "Background" and refocused. Z1720 (talk) 02:28, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I took a stab at editing. (It's so much easier to cut than to write!). Apologies in advance for any errors, but I think it's in better shape than it was before. Monkeywire (talk) 16:51, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Just adding for the record that I think this is worth keeping now that it's not so bloated Monkeywire (talk) 18:39, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@Slgrandson: Do the edits made address your concerns? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: Better off. (Attempting to reach @Maky so that we can remind him of the progress, but an immediate reply is hardly guaranteed as he last edited in April.) --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 16:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I see an unsourced paragraph in "Editions". I also think the "Reception" section could be expanded upon, considering that several reviews are already used as inline citations. Z1720 (talk) 03:05, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment @Slgrandson: I've gone ahead and undone Monkeywire's changes while performing a very substantial but much more surgical cutdown of the article. It was bloated beyond belief, but I believe Monkeywire's decision to relegate the entire 'Reception' section to a paragraph and the entire summary/contents to a bullet pointed list of chapters dramatically hurt the article's comprehensiveness and turned it into something more akin to a C-class article (through no fault of their own; there really was so much extraneous stuff there). Some highlights of the changes I've made include:

• Word count and character count in the prose are both down a smidge over 28% (~21,050 characters down to ~15,100 and ~3,310 words down to ~2,240).
• I believe I have done this while retaining all the points which were present when this article was first reviewed.
• I do not believe this article could now be meaningfully reduced further without losing relevant, useful information.
• The brick wall of listed authors which made the 'Overview' section effectively unreadable has been moved into three explanatory footnotes – one for each edition. I believe this information about the authors is highly relevant and should remain but that it undeniably cannot remain in the prose.
• The descriptions of the appendices have been completely stripped out, as they were effectively obvious by the appendix titles alone.
• The mention of a Lemur News announcement has been removed owing to the fact that a sales pitch written by the book's authors does not constitute 'Reception'.
• The awkward, dangling lead paragraph of the 'Content' section about the front and back covers has been neatly folded into an already-existing sentence, so the section now starts with the "Introduction".
• The block quote from the "Introduction" section has been shortened and naturally folded into the sentence prior to where it originally was.
• Very obvious tangents such as how many lemurs a reviewer had spotted as well as tautologies such as (paraphrased) "this field guide helps identify lemurs in the field" have been taken out.
• Statements that could be expressed in substantially fewer words without loss of clarity have been amended.
• Not relevant to bloat per se, but I revised the summary of Lisa Gould's review to – I think – better reflect what she wrote.

My vote in the article's current state is to Keep the featured article status, as I believe it is now an excellent reference for this book's publication history, contents, reception, and impact on primatology. I tried to be descriptive with my edit summaries, so please feel free to peruse and see if you approve of the changes I've made. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 22:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Not extremely familiar with FA standards, but I think the improvements above are very good and I would vote to maintain the status as a FA. I can't point out any problems. PARAKANYAA (talk) 21:40, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• @Slgrandson: assuming that Maky is not going to respond, what are your thoughts on the article's status? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria: Given it's been a month and a half since you asked that, nearly two months since I cleaned this up, and over three months since it started, would it be reasonable to close this discussion? I believe I've more than sufficiently addressed the completely valid concern brought up by Slgrandson here. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 03:10, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

• With or without further input from Slgrandson, we'll need additional viewpoints in order to arrive at consensus whether your changes satisfy the FA criteria. You could try posting a neutral message at a broader WikiProject like Biology or Books to see if anyone is able to weigh in. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Pre-dreadnought battleship

Notified: The Land, Blackeagle, Nigel Ish, Parsecboy, WP MILHIST, WP Ships, noticed January 2023

Sadly, this key Operation Majestic Titan article is no longer at the current standards. I voiced concerns on the article's talk page over a year and a half ago, but the only activity there since has been an IP raising minor accuracy concerns. As a MILHIST regular, I regret having to take this here, but I lack the sources and subject matter knowledge to resolve this concerns myself. Hopefully the outcome of Wikipedia:Featured article review/Ironclad warship/archive1 can be avoided. Hog Farm _Talk 22:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

I just skimmed the article's sourcing and agree that there are major formatting issues for the cites and bibliography. I can fix all that pretty easily. I'll see what more needs to be done after I do that and look at your comments on the talk page.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:24, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Man, I just started trying to figure out which actual book goes with some of the cites and I can't match them up! Furthermore, some of the pages cited don't relate to the material cited at all. I just deleted them and will cite them properly as I find time.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:24, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Sturm, is that work that you anticipate could be done within FAR? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:22, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I think so; I'll try not to drag it out as long as I did for Wisconsin and Missouri.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 20:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Sturm, any update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:41, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm in the process of moving, so little to nothing until December--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Sturm? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Nikkimaria, I intend to work on this. On my read through I see 20 small paragraphs which don't have citations. Also, there are a few long paragraphs which only have 1 citation, so I will try to add more. Matarisvan (talk) 14:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan, are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria, I do, but it will take me some time, since a GA reassessment is taking up too much of it. I think it could be closed today, and if it is, I expect to be done with this rewrite in 30 days. I hope that is not too long. Matarisvan (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

1880 Republican National Convention

Notified: Nishkid64, Coemgenus, Billmckern, Tilden76, Devonian Wombat, -A-M-B-1996-, WP Politics, WP Chicago, WP Illinois, WP USA, WP Elections and Referendums, noticed in December 2023 with prior issues raised in 2015

As originally promoted, this 2007 FA included a number of references to varied sources. However, in 2015, it was discovered on the talk page that essentially the editor just read the Ackerman book and threw in citations from Ackerman's notes, even though those sources did not entirely support the cited content. I ran into a similar problem from this same editor when I rewrote Thomas C. Hindman, another old FA promotion, several years ago. Coemgenus resolved many of the issues in 2015 but the article is still very heavily reliant on Ackerman alone. I also, in December 2023, found that there are still a number of smaller source-text integrity issues and that the citation placement is messed up.

Awhile back, this article was suggested to potentially rerun as TFA with the upcoming Republican National Convention later this year, but I don't think that is a good idea given the sourcing history here. Given my experiences with Wikipedia:Featured article review/J. R. Richard/archive1, Wikipedia:Featured article review/Lee Smith (baseball)/archive1, Talk:Thomas C. Hindman#Uncited paras/sentences etc, and Talk:Stede Bonnet#Featured article review needed I have grave concerns about the sourcing from any FA nominations by this nominator. Hog Farm _Talk 17:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC no major edits to address sourcing concerns. Z1720 (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• I did not write this one, though I have edited and have access to the sources. Is the concern here that some particular sources are inaccurate, or just that there might be problems? I'd be glad to run a spotcheck on the citations and see if it's good. --Coemgenus (talk) 14:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Coemgenus - I compared passages to parts of Ackerman several months ago and have found that the big ideas are all supported, but a number of the smaller details are not. I'm also generally uneasy with the content here after my experience with re-writing Thomas C. Hindman, another FA by the same nominator, where the article was based only on one book to the neglect of information in other sources, omitted major information (Hindman being suspended from command for awhile), and contained factual errors (incorrectly claiming that Hindman was present for the Chattanooga actions after Chickamauga), in addition to the sources failing spot-checks. A spotcheck here would be greatly appreciated. Hog Farm _Talk 14:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• • @Coemgenus: Are you still planning on looking at this? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
    • Sorry, yes, I will look at it this week. --Coemgenus (talk) 21:43, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
    • I looked at every tenth citation to see if they lined up with what was being cited:

fn.10 -- Hesseltine p. 432 contains the quoted language and the sentiment it expresses.

fn.20 -- Ackerman makes both points on p. 74 and the quoted headline is there.

fn.30 -- Ackerman pp.66-67 does say this.

fn.40 -- Cites Ackerman p. 58 for two points. the phrasing is a little awkward, but it's accurate.

fn.50 -- Cites Ackerman p. 83 for two quotes, both accurate.

fn.60 -- Cites Ackerman p. 91 for three points and two quotes, all accurate.

fn.70 -- Cites Ackerman p. 103-104 for two points, both accurate.

fn.80 -- Cites Ackerman p. 116 for two points. Both accurate, but the parenthetical near the second point wasn't in the source (it is true, though). So I moved the citation to the right spot.

fn.90 -- I had trouble accessing this -- the Questia page wouldn't load. I found the book on the Internet Archive, though, and it's correct.

Since most of those random citations were to the same book, I picked out a few others to check.

fn.53 -- Cites Muzzey p. 169 -- the quotation and the meaning of the sentence are both accurate.

fn.59 -- Cites Clancy pp. 104-105 for two points including quotations. This is the first problem I found. Clancy and Ackerman both cite a letter from Joseph H. Geiger to John Sherman, but where Clancy summarizes the content, Ackerman quotes it directly. The author of this article uses the direct quote, as found in Ackerman, but cites it to Clancy, which is incorrect.

I think this article relies too heavily on Ackerman's book, but where it does so, it does so accurately. Where it cites other sources, in at least one instance, it does not do so faithfully. There's not much to fix here, but it should be fixed. I have nearly all of these books, so I guess I should be the one to fix it? --Coemgenus (talk) 18:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Coemgenus, it does not appear anyone else is stepping forward - is this something you're willing and able to do, or should this proceed? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:24, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, I apologize, I've been swamped. I'll get started on it this weekend. The Ackerman citations are all good, it's just the others I need to clean up. Shouldn't take long. I hope! --Coemgenus (talk) 02:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, I've gone through and checked the cites, especially those not to Ackerman. After a few changes, I think everything is accurate now. --Coemgenus (talk) 01:16, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: ↑ Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to take a look at this over the weekend. Hog Farm _Talk 02:28, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

This looks mostly fine, but I'm a bit concerned about the heavy reliance on Ackerman. Coemgenus, noting that you've done work on a number of articles related to this election, do you think that this article is a "it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature" as required by the featured article criteria? Hog Farm _Talk 22:22, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it is. If I were writing it from scratch, I'd vary the sources more, but everything seems accurate since the last changes I made. I could change a few of them to other sources, but it wouldn't change the text, since multiple sources all say the same thing. --Coemgenus (talk) 23:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

If Coemgenus, wikipedia's subject matter expert on the 1880 election, is okay with this, then I think I'm at a keep. Hog Farm _Talk 01:12, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720: Given the above, what are your thoughts? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:25, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I am still concerned about the overreliance on Ackerman as inline citations. I did a Google Scholar search for "1880 Republican National Convention" and found additional sources that might be used in the article. Has there been a search for additional sources that could be added to the article? I also went through the article and removed repetitive, subsequent refs to the same citation and I'll change images from px to upright momentarily. Z1720 (talk) 19:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Coemgenus? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:06, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said above, I think the cites are now fully accurate. I could change some of them to other books, if I have to, but they all say the same thing — these are mostly undisputed facts about the convention. —Coemgenus (talk) 21:51, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

• I have examined an arbitrary few of the footnotes:

• n 12: the Evans article confirms that the three political bosses backed Grant.
• n 22: the quote is accurately reproduced from pp.75–76 of Ackerman (2003).
• n 33: Ackerman, p.67 directly asserts that that lawyer was hired by Garfield.
• n 43: examining Ackerman, p.58–66, it seems clear that ruling, the word used in our article, does not quite capture the nuance of Gorham's involvement. This was a committee meeting of a political party conference. The chairman was determined to exclude the nomination but he was not experienced in parliamentary procedure, so he was advised by Gorman, who was specially present at the meeting and filling a sort of clerk–participant–gadfly role, in a way that to modern eyes would seem intolerably unprofessional. The source says that the nominee's team would make a motion and Gorman would speak his view on why, procedurally, the motion had to fail or was out of order. After Gorman, the chairman would each time say afterwards, "So ruled". Cameron therefore gave the rulings and relied on the advice or the reasoning of Gorham. I am inclined to think this a one-off case of misunderstanding the nuanced meaning of so ruled rather than a genuine academic error. I think that any non-native English speaker could misuse ruling to describe Gorman's involvement. Word choice aside, the sentence is factually accurate.

The concern underlying this FAR was that the article's original nominator possibly has a record of sourcing misuse. I have to say that nothing of the sort seems to have happened with this article. While we could carry on checking the footnotes, I am not sure that anything found so far suggests that the article would not pass FAC today, and I don't find that likely to change. This review should end here. arcticocean ■ 00:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Edward I of England

Notified: Unlimitedlead, Dudley Miles, Ealdgyth, Usernamesarebunk, Lampman, Hchc2009, GoldRingChip, Gog the Mild, Surtsicna, Nev1, Mike Christie England, WikiProject Wales, WikiProject Scotland, Ireland, Jewish history, Middle Ages, Military history WikiProject English Royalty diff for talk page notification

I am nominating this featured article for review because, during the FA process the article went through, three large areas of historical research were omitted. Thus currently it does not meet the criteria that the article needs to be:

• 1.b comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context and
• 1.c well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature

I have since addressed one of those, but had no feedback. I intend to address the other two but would like to ensure my work is reviewed as I do so.

The areas that were not addressed during the FAC process were

1. Anglo-Jewish historical research: Edward's actions are a large subject of discussion in this literature, which contends that he has particular significance for the history of antisemitism and for English identity, which incorporated an antisemitic element as a result of the expulsion. (These topics were notably missed in Prestwich.) These issues have now been addressed to a minimum level by myself but need a check for FA standards.
2. Welsh history: Edward I is of particular significance to Welsh history. Edward is typically seen by Welsh medievalists as a coloniser, someone who did immense damage to Welsh society, culture and self-confidence, which produced a lasting anger. These items need expanding in the "Legacy" section at least. The literature on Edward I from a Welsh perspective was unfortunately contended not to exist during FA review.
3. Irish history: The literature on Ireland was not consulted; Ireland is not covered in the article at all, except to mention Edward governed it and it provided him income. Themes include the early takeover by Edward and some squabbling with his father; Edward treating Ireland as a revenue source and little else; corruption and incompetence in the administrators Edward appointed and repeatedly sacked; over-taxation to meet his war demands; speculation over food exports during the Welsh and Gascon wars; problems emerging from the Edwardian weak administration including a revival of the fortunes of the Gaelic areas' leadership, leading to regular wars in the period and following centuries. Thus although an absentee landlord, current Irish historical research sees him as signficant for the difficulties of Ireland that continued in the centuries following.

Additionally, a check should be made regarding Scottish sources and perspectives.

These areas should also be looked at:

• Religious views: the article may not fully capture the nature of Edward's devotion. It covers his piety as actions, rather than as a belief system. There is commentary about his and Eleanor's piety giving them a sense that they were doing God's work, which makes sense as Crusaders, and explains better his sense of certainty while doing morally reprehensible things.
• Relations with Eleanor: particularly, the support of and the psychological impact of the loss of Eleanor and some of Edward's key advisors around 1290 is often held to have impacted the latter part of his reign. This doesn't seem to be discussed. Also, Edward encouraged Eleanor to accumulate land wealth to reduce the call on his own funds, which was an important change for future queens but impacted a lot on domestic relations with the landed classes who were being dispossessed; it limited what he could do with taxation and was a driver in his policies towards the Jews. This is now touched on this but it could do with discussion earlier.

The reasons for several of these areas being missed appear to include an over-reliance on Michael Prestwich's biography. It received significant academic criticism for missing several of these areas, and being overly concerned with war administration and finance; which I have noted on his Wikipedia page.

Key texts that need consulting include:

• For Wales, "The Age of Conquest: Wales 1063-1415" by RR Davies from 2001, and A History of Wales by John Davies.
• For Ireland, "A new history of Ireland Volume II 1169-1534", which contains a dedicated chapter on Edward's Lordship, "The years of Crisis, 1254-1315" and a further chapter on the wars that were provoked in the period "A Land of War", both by James Lydon. There is by Robin Frame, "Ireland and Britain 1170 to 1450", and other works

As mentioned, I would not like to see this article demoted and I am willing to do the work on Wales and Ireland particularly, and anything further on Anglo-Jewish matters. There is a question on structure for that section also. A point may emerge around article length and there may need to be cuts to meet FA criteria. This I would certainly need help with.

If it is better that I simply work on these areas, complete that and bring the article back to FAR afterwards I can do that. But I haven't got much feedback on the page and feel reluctant to do more work without a little guidance.

Jim Killock (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm late to this party, but I would argue that Edward I and Wales is a very complex, nuanced topic and goes beyond Edward merely provoking hatred and lasting damage etc. David Stephenson's recent studies are a must, imo, somewhat updating and revising his old mentor RR Davies. Then there is my own modest offering (cough, not that I am trying to flog books on here...) 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:1D13:60A2:4605:AAA0 (talk) 11:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Very happy to take a look at further sources; I can definitely take a look at David Stephenson's studies for anything clearly missing. If we have your name we can look at anything you have written as well. Jim Killock (talk) 14:31, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks - it is David Pilling, Edward I and Wales. Stephenson's book on Powys and his recent Medieval Wales: Centuries of Ambiguity are go-to for this subject. I have some comments on Ireland as well, still nagivating these Wiki pages. 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:A13D:765:F9A3:95A5 (talk) 15:13, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks David, I have Centuries of Ambiguity and your volume as it goes, I'll give these a read and see where I get. Jim Killock (talk) 18:15, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment by KJP1

My view is that a FAR, a year after the article's promotion, is not needed. If I can try and summarise, you think there are three areas where something/more needs to be said;

• Edward and the Jews;
• Edward and Wales;
• Edward and Ireland;

and two areas that may need a bit more coverage:

• Edward's religiosity;
• Edward and Eleanor.

My suggestion would be that you write brief, sourced, paragraphs on each of these, covering the additional points you think need to be made, and place them on the article Talkpage. Then, see what other involved/interested editors think. I stress brief for two reasons - firstly, your comments to date are rather long and this may discourage editors from engaging with them; secondly, there are always challenges around what to include, and not include, in an FA. Edward reigned for 35 years and packed a lot in, as well as being quite busy before his accession. Therefore, you're never going to be able to cover everything. Indeed, we already have spin-offs, e.g. Conquest of Wales by Edward I, Edict of Expulsion etc. and it may well be that further spin-offs, Edward and the Jews / Edward in Ireland etc. could be an answer. KJP1 (talk) 08:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy with that but I'd note the main reason for non-engagement AFAICT is probably that the main editor is in semi-retirement and no longer working on the page. There will be existing pages for all these topics, but for an FA standard, the page has to reasonably represent all the relevant literatures, AIUI, ie, other parts might need trimming, if it came to a question of overall length. As now the article arguably violates NPOV, through omission of some of the more uncomfortable aspects of his reign.Jim Killock (talk) 08:57, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• I suspect that the OP has found sufficient deficiencies in the article to justify a trip to FAR. Per policy, if they attempted any major changes they could be reverted, while the talk page is quiet enough to suggest it would be an unprofitable exercise.
  In the meantime they have built a solid case. They have identified fundamental omissions which don't only breach WP:FA? but Wikipedia policy and pillar also.
  More broadly, it highlights the problem with a lack of expertise at FAC. There may not be always much we can do about that, but we must accept the consequences of it all the same. While the review of this article received an at first glance thorough examination, with the exception of a couple, most of the reviews were for prose and spelling and the source review lightweight. The latter, at least, could have e highlighted gaps in the scholarship.
  Still, it's not too late. I'm sure we're all grateful to JimKillock for highlighting these issues and for expressing willingness to step up to the mark and address them. Cheers! ——Serial 12:37, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Either way, FAR or Talkpage, it would be immensely helpful if JimK could provide suggested paragraphs for inclusion, which would look to address the said omissions. I think that would greatly assist other editors in assessing the issues, and how they might be addressed in the article, having regard to weight, length etc. KJP1 (talk) 15:32, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I will crack on with this for sure. It may take me a few days to find time to start; altogether I would think probably 3-4 weeks are needed for me to find spare time to look at all the things I've mentioned. The Wales paras are the easiest for me. Jim Killock (talk) 16:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

No hurry and no problem! Edward I is not my period, but I do have some experience of compressing prose into tight, FA, pargraphs. If I can help at all in terms of reviewing the prose, I'd be delighted. Serial is your man for reviewing the content. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 17:54, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks both of you for the kind words and offers of (potential!) help. Jim Killock (talk) 22:07, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@KJP1@Serial Number 54129Ping in case you are able to help: I've linked to the work I have already done for checking re Anglo-Jewish policies, and drafted the changes regarding Wales from Welsh sources below. Jim Killock (talk) 18:45, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

JimKillock - Not forgotten this, just busy irl this week. Will take a look at the weekend. KJP1 (talk) 08:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Edward's Jewish policies: text check

Moved to talk page to simplify feedback

Wales I: Edward I of England#Conquest of Wales

Moved to talk page as mostly resolved

Wales II: Edward I of England#Legacy

Moved to talk page

Next steps

I will try to write up the section on Ireland next, once I have Davies 1998 British Isles book. I have access to the two volumes on Ireland, Frame 1998 and Lydon 2008a mentioned. --Jim Killock (talk) 19:11, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Re Ireland, I would also recommend Beth Hartland's essays on the governance of Ireland in Edward's early reign. Hartland doesn't seek to overturn Lydon's criticisms, but points out that Edward did make more of an effort with the lordship prior to the Scottish wars, albeit at a remove. 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:A13D:765:F9A3:95A5 (talk) 15:15, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This is useful thank you David. Jim Killock (talk) 18:08, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Comments from KJP1

With apologies for the delay in getting to this, a few comments. A caveat to start, Edwardian history is definitely not my period, and thus what I'm not able to judge is the weight that would be appropriate to give to the differing views on the Jewish and Welsh (and subsequently Irish) issues. That said:

• In general, the suggested additions to the Jewish/Welsh issues seem quite reasonable.
• In relation to the Jewish issue, we now have two, well-sourced, paragraphs, featuring a range of views. These seem reasonable. I'm not myself quite clear on the connection that is being drawn between the tomb of Little St Hugh and the Eleanor Crosses. The text says "is likely to have been an attempt by Edward"; it seems to be suggesting more than just a stylistic similarity, but some form of connected political aim. Is it possible to make it clearer?
  • The background is that they were built in the same style by the same craftsmen working for the Royal household. This has led historians to pick up on a linked political purpose, as both are political objects. Since Eleanor had an "unsavoury" reputation regarding Jewish loans and land seizures, it is most likely that she was being associated with the cult of St Hugh, in order to "clean up" her reputation, as someone who venerated a Christian child supposedly ritually murdered by Jews. However, although the evidence is quite clear, it is also historians making educated calculations, not a matter of simple fact. At the same time, Edward's promotion of the cult is absolutely established and his purpose entirely clear. I'll take another look as the point re Eleanor is a difficult point to convey. --Jim Killock (talk) 09:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Checking, I had placed this information into an end note, regarding the link between the Eleanor crosses and the tomb design. I could edit the main body, to say something like "creating a visual association" or "probably to associate Eleanor's memory with the cult". --Jim Killock (talk) 12:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• What I can't judge is whether the emphasis given to this issue by historians would warrant it being a separate section. It would, of necessity, still be quite brief. That said, a 4.4. would not seem too problematic?
• Wales - moving the coverage of the 1287/1294 rebellions further down seems reasonable, and creates a better chronology. The other changes don't seem controversial to me.
• Legacy - losing the sentence on contemporary English views of the Welsh campaigns again doesn't seem controversial, it's not directly sourced. Where I would diverge from JimK is in ditching Morris and having only the views of Welsh historians, Davies/Davies. Include them, certainly, but not exclusively.
  • Just quickly on this: the current "Legacy" structure is "views on Edward, from an older English; modern English; Scottish; Welsh; Ango-Jewish perspective", rather than dealing with aspects of his reign.
  • I think more fruitful that pro contra on each aspect may be to bring the question of Edward and the English Crown as either an English or British phenomenon, and the associated power dynamics into focus, as this has been an area of active discussion (there's 3-4 histories written like this, not yet consulted, noted below). The question raised by Morris (was it justified) isn't really discussed in the literature (much?) AFAICT, it was just used as a proxy answer to "Do we have information about Welsh historians' view of Edward?" as a reviewer noted this was missing. --Jim Killock (talk) 09:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
• And I would tweak the clause "R. R. Davies finds Edward to engage in the 'gratuitous belittling of his opponents', being 'one of the most consistent and unattractive features of his character as King'" to read something like "R. R. Davies considered Edward's repeated and 'gratuitous belittling of his opponents', to have been 'one of the most consistent and unattractive features of his character as king'".

• Character - following on from the above, it would seem reasonable to reflect something of this in the "Character" section. It doesn't currently have anything on how he was/is seem from a Scottish/Welsh/Irish perspective, and that would be useful to have. But it would again need to be quite brief.

I hope that editors with much greater knowledge of Edward will be able to chip in, particularly on the issue of DUE which buidhe notes above. KJP1 (talk) 07:37, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks very much for this @KJP1. I'll wait some further feedback before making edits. Jim Killock (talk) 09:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Nikkimaria; I have been busy with other things but want to do the Ireland section next. This won't be so much work as looking at Scotland, and the British context, both of which need me to do significant reading. I think I may as well transpose the edits re Wales at this point. Jim Killock (talk) 09:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Irish section drafted Jim Killock (talk) 18:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Feedback requested

I've done most of what I hope to do now, I might tidy up some Scottish points later but for me the FAR changes are done. If @KJP1 or @Serial Number 54129 or anyone else has feedback I would be very grateful. Pings to @Unlimitedlead, @Dudley Miles, @Ealdgyth, @Usernamesarebunk, @Lampman, @Hchc2009, @GoldRingChip, @Gog the Mild, @Surtsicna, @Nev1, @Mike Christie --Jim Killock (talk) 09:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Jim Killock, could you move your notes and resolved commentary to the review talk page? This one's getting a bit hard to follow at this point, and that may be discouraging others from weighing in. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:26, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Nikkimaria I've moved the notes and commentary I can move and linked to them. Hope that helps. Jim Killock (talk) 07:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• @KJP1: How are things looking from your perspective? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:18, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

  Nikkimaria - Sorry, missed this one. To me the changes suggested are sound, and the research very solid. I do wonder whether there is sometimes a little too much detail for our summary style. But my real problem is that I'm not a specialist in this period, and as such I cannot make an informed assessment on "weight". It really needs, another, Edwardian specialist to weigh in. And those will be few and far to find! KJP1 (talk) 06:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you @KJP1 @Nikkimaria. A copy edit / check / tightening of prose could be done on my changes. Someone could check for issues with source and cite styles. I'm sure there's room for some cutting. On overall "weight", this is a problematic area as the last academic biog was in the 1980s. I would caution against judging weight via biographies alone; these tend to be partial and Anglo-centric accounts while are currently also rather out of date. Other literatures deal with Edward extensively (Anglo-Jewish, Scottish, Irish, Welsh histories). The prior Anglo-centricity of the article is what I've tried to re-balance, this is not a coincidence. Jim Killock (talk) 17:26, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

  I've posted a request to WP:GOCE for a partial copyedit on the revised sections, however there is currently a 3-4 month backlog. Jim Killock (talk) 12:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:07, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  JimKillock - Nikkimaria, as mentioned above, I think the problem we have is the lack of another specialist. For me, Jim's amendments look strong and well-sourced. But Edward I isn't my period, so I can't properly assess the issue of weight/due. For that, we need an Edwardian, which I'm not! KJP1 (talk) 16:50, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria I am, as mentioned above, done with my changes related to prior gaps in the sources examined; I have posted a request to WP:GOCE for a partial copyedit on the revised sections, we are about six weeks into a 3-4 month wait. I agree with @KJP1 that it would be handy for an Edwardian specialist to review if available but that seems unlikely.

  Choices are therefore are to (a) wait until the copy editing is done then close, (b) wait indefinitely for a specialist to turn up; or (c) close this now. I'd opt for (a) as a quality control on the prose and just in case a specialist arrives. A specialist could always review / argue on weighting at a later date, after all that is what I did in essence. Jim Killock (talk) 21:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  @JimKillock, could I suggest asking @John, who is known to be a good copy editor, for a review? A six week long wait is too long imo, and that is just for copy editors to get to your request, their review might take half a month or more. After that is done, I could do prose, source and image reviews. Matarisvan (talk) 13:54, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, that would be great. @John if you are willing to help with this, please make any edits directly, I can check for accuracy afterwards. This request lists which sections need reviewing. Jim Killock (talk) 15:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for the ping. I am travelling but I can take a look tomorrow. John (talk) 19:20, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

  Excellent, for ease of reference these are the sections that have been edited in this review and need a check / copy edit.

  • Conquest of Wales
  • Character as king
  • Parliament and the expulsion of the Jews
  • Administration in Ireland
  • Legacy

  Jim Killock (talk) 17:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks, that helps. Should be able to take a look this evening. John (talk) 13:56, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

  I've started by reading the article. It seems very good and thorough and I can see lots of edits I want to make. How much of a hurry are we in? John (talk) 23:58, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Started the first section. Some of these will be harder than others. I am not a subject specialist. John (talk) 13:37, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks very much. There isn't any massive hurry (we've waited since mid June for a copy edit, and GOCE would take another 8 weeks at a guess). I can check for accuracy as you finish sections, or answer any questions you have. Jim Killock (talk) 14:14, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a pleasure. Please do check my edits in case any important shades of meaning are lost as I copyedit. John (talk) 14:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your changes @John, should we take it you are done? I'm very happy with them (I've made one edit) and thank you for looking at the text throughout, as well as the new edits. Jim Killock (talk) 20:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

You are welcome. I might take one further look if that's ok? John (talk) 06:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

for sure, go for it! Jim Killock (talk) 07:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience. I think I am finished now. As a Scot, I was tempted to use a different verb than "confiscated" to describe the removal of the Stone of Scone. I might say "looted" or maybe just "took". I wouldn't dream of imposing my POV though. What word does the source use? I think the article is looking good now. John (talk) 13:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll check in a few days; there will be multiple sources of course, and potentially different words used. "took" is neutral enough. Edward's penchant for delivering snubs of this nature is well discussed in the sources, but dealt here with at "character" / "legacy" rather than in the narrative. There, "seizure" is used. [Edit: I agree that "confiscated" is rather non-neutral / Anglo-centric; it implies that law and authority was on Edward's side when taking the Stone] Jim Killock (talk) 18:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@John Prestwich (cited) used "removed", also more neutral than "confiscated". Barrow uses "moved", followed by describing it as "plunder[ed]". So "took" seems right to me as it doesn't presume legality or claims of legality. I made the edit in any case. Jim Killock (talk) 19:18, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that is more neutral language, and if it is truer to the sources that's perfect. John (talk) 19:21, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Still to do; full dates for the events of the Second Barons' War as just having months is confusing. I presume he didn't erect the memorial crosses himself, but is it too clunky to point that out in the text? John (talk) 15:28, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this is clearer, thank you. Jim Killock (talk) 18:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria What is the process for closing the review? I think we have done as best we can with available resources (I think @John is done with copyedits from what I can see). Jim Killock (talk) 19:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

The process is we need people to either say this is ready to close without FARC, or this needs to be moved to FARC. Once there's a consensus either way it will proceed according to that. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• As someone who has read and reread the article in the course of a fairly thorough copyedit throughout, with specific emphasis on the rewritten sections, I think this article should retain its FA status. It looks like all the concerns raised in this discussion have been addressed. John (talk) 14:34, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• I am happy that the concerns raised are sufficiently addressed and believe it should retain its FA status. --Jim Killock (talk) 16:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
• I shall stick my neck out and also vote for retain, given that it was a fairly recent FA, and JK's edits seem clear improvements. JK has done a good job of expanding/nuancing/giving the article a wider perspective, and John's done a great copy edit. KJP1 (talk) 16:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan

Hi Jim Killock, my comments:

• Note a, ref #2: the page range we have used, 865-891 is, I think, a whole chapter. We need to cite 1-3 pages which say regnal numbers were not used during Edward's time and that he came to be known as Edward I only after his 2 immediate descendants also used the same name.
• Note v needs a citation.
• Perhaps link to justiciar? I must say that I didn't know what the word exactly meant.
• Ref #35 needs page numbers, unless we are citing all 11 pages of that source.

Will resume tomorrow, completed reviewing the Early life section. Matarisvan (talk) 10:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks - I will work on these, note these issues were present (bar note v) at FA completion, rather than in this round of changes, so fixing refs especially may take a bit of digging for me. Jim Killock (talk) 11:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

These are fixed. On ref #2 re regnal numbers, the information was not in the source, so I removed it. On ref #35 (now #34), I don't believe this was the source used as it goes into great detail without really making the basic points. Rather I think the narrative follows Prestwich, so I added that. Jim Killock (talk) 13:07, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Jim, will resume my review the day after tomorrow. Till then, you should look at ref #7, particularly its last 3 sources, because only the first source cited in that ref is necessary. I think the titles of the 3 sourcez are cited to show that Edward was called the Lord Edward before his coronation. Matarisvan (talk) 18:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

These sources don't actually support the claim, afaict, so I've removed them, thank you. Jim Killock (talk) 23:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @JimKillock, resuming my review:

• Add the inflation adjusted value for the £17,500 lent by Louis IX?
• "crown lands that his father had surrendered during his reign": Could we perhaps list these lands in a note?
• Link to the castles of Beaumaris, Caernarfon, Conwy and Harlech?
• Add the inflation adjusted value for the £400,000 cost estimated by Prestwich in note O?
• Link to RR Davies and Michael Prestwich in the body as done in the biblio?
• Add the inflation adjusted value for the £16,000 in fines and seizures?
• Add the inflation adjusted figure for the £110,000 lay subsidy approved?
• Add the inflation adjusted figure for the £200,000 raised through the lay subsidy?
• Add the inflation adjusted figure for the £473 in Edward's burial costs?
• Ref #352: consider removing the first two sources? Either their titles or the whole books have been cited.
• Remove the second link to GWS Barrow?
• I believe the war in Flanders has not been summarized or linked in the Early reign section, and is mentioned directly.

That concludes my prose review. I have done some little edits to the sfns myself, I hope that is alright. I will try to do an image and source review soon. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 16:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @JimKillock, pinging you in case you haven't seen the comments above. Matarisvan (talk) 14:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan I've done the prices as best as possible (direct comparisons aren't very real). The link changes are done.

I haven't done the war in Flanders change as I haven't understood what is needed.

Re ref 352: the refs are for the positive works in question; presumably the other refs are later historigraphical reviews of said works, so I left these in but clarified what the refs are (the works, sources for their reception).

I think that deals with the requested changes - apologies for the delay Jim Killock (talk) 23:17, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

@JimKillock: On the Flanders war point, I meant that we have not summarized or stated what Edward did in that expedition. We merely state "but it was not until August 1297 that he was able to sail for Flanders, at which time his allies there had already suffered defeat." What happened thereafter? What did he do in Flanders? We just say when he went there and when he returned, unlike our accounts of the wars in Wales, Ireland and Scotland. Matarisvan (talk) 13:54, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I guess the point is that Edward did not have a direct interest in Flanders, he was not invading for example, but had merely supported Flanders against the King of France, to protect his interests in Gascony (in the south of France). So Flanders isn't part of the narrative beyond that - I will check the narrative to see if this is sufficiently clear. Jim Killock (talk) 14:38, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Then I don't have any other points to raise, though you should clarify that Edward played no active role beyond supporting the count. Also, I would recommend you get reviews from @UndercoverClassicist and @Tim riley, both of whom I reckon would have a good command on English history. I will soon do image & source reviews, hopefully within a month from now. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 15:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan Bear in mind that you are reviewing the whole article which was meant to be thoroughly reviewed 18 months ago - please do check what they did so you avoid any duplication.

• Image review
• Source review

Both of us have found issues with sources tho so I don't discount that there may be others. On images, File:Edward I of England and Eleanor of Castile, Lincoln Cathedral.jpg was remodelled to depict Edward and Eleanor in the 1800s, and there is no evidence that it was originally meant to depict them. I've failed to find goo sources about the depiction either way, so it should probably be removed. Jim Killock (talk) 16:33, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood how FAR operates, but this does seem to be turning into a full-on FAC Mark II. KJP1 (talk) 16:15, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

David Pilling

Flanders is very complicated - Prestwich didn't cover it adequately, imo, or Morris, or anyone, really, since many of the actions of Edward's allies on the continent are described in non-English language sources. It is absolutely true to argue, as the likes of Prestwich and Lyon did, that Edward's expensively assembled allies did next to nothing: most of them did in fact fulfil their contracts and fight the French. Also worth pointing out that the cost of the Anglo-French was 1294-1307 was more than Wales and Scotland combined. 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:F965:6D55:5008:D11E (talk) 22:19, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Oops that should read 'absolutely untrue'! 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:F965:6D55:5008:D11E (talk) 22:19, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks David, this is very useful, let us know where we can get a bit more information and we can add these points. Jim Killock (talk) 18:07, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

It might be easier if I added some content to the Wales & Flanders sections - I don't know how the editing process works on here, do new comments have to be submitted for review? Davidpilling56 (talk) 06:42, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Davidpilling56 and welcome to Wikipedia! You could just add text to the article, but as it is your first go, as this is a "Feature Article review" process to deal with the article's shortcomings (as Edward I's article is meant to be Wikipedia's best work, a "Featured Article"), you could draft your first change(s) and we could review them here. As you are a professional archivist and historian I'm sure you can get this right :) Then after your first go, you could notify us of the nature of the changes, and then just edit the article directly.

The main requirements of Wikipedia's policies are:

• Neutral Point of View (NPOV)
• that material is referenced to the exact pages in reliable (ie professionally published) sources where the information can be located (formatting these is something you may need help with)
• that material is brief and appears in proportion to how the subject is treated in English language literature about the topic (ie, about Edward I)

For Flanders this probably needs to be quite short as the.literature doesn't focus on this aspect of his career; I imagine that French and Dutch literature talk about this a lot more when dealing with him. We should apply a bit of flexibility IMO as basing proportions solely on English language sources might be a practical decision but it does cause the possibility of bias from a global standpoint, which does of course go against Wikipedia's core NPOV policy.

On source formatting, if you provide the source details I will help you with formatting the short ref and long ref for the blibliography.

I am in this edit creating a section in this review for your comments and work. Jim Killock (talk) 11:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Jim, appreciate it. I'll try and put something together in the next few days and post drafts on here, as you say :) 2A06:5902:3A03:7900:F418:7623:2F2B:21E5 (talk) 15:16, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

No problem! Look forward to reading :) Jim Killock (talk) 12:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Have just added a draft for Flanders in my edit section - see what you think :) Davidpilling56 (talk) 16:21, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Edward I of England#Diplomacy and war on the Continent

[ Draft moved to Talk page ] This section has been edited by David to explain the scale and impact of the Flanders campaign, and that it was not a flat failure. Note that information about the actual cost needs adding and the the figure previously give (£400,000) is removed as likely incorrect. Jim Killock (talk) 05:52, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Byzantine Empire

Notified: Mass Message Send notifications, talk page notices 2020-11-21 2022-12-10

This 2001 FA which dates to Refreshing Brilliant Prose days was last reviewed at FAR more than 10 years ago, and its most significant contributors are no longer active. The talk page notifications from 2020-11-21 and 2022-12-10 barely scratch the surface; the article is riddled with maintenance tags and there are concerns about image licensing, uncited text, prose, MOS compliance, and a good chunk of the very large article has never been vetted in a review process, as it was added after the last review. I believe the problems here are too deep and wide to be addressed at FAR, and the article should be delisted and re-submitted to FAC if it improves, but maybe someone is up to the task. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I generally agree that FAR is an unlikely solution for this, unless someone seriously commits themselves to this daunting task. This has been one of the big impending FARs for many years... I think the biggest length issues are in the history section, which should be 3/4, maybe even half as long. On the other side, the Literature section seems embarrassingly brief. From my understanding of Byzantine music (I created the List of Byzantine composers article), the emphasis on instruments is hugely undue and much more discussion of composers, genres and music rituals should be instead substituted. Aza24 (talk) 22:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I am reluctant to commit, given other constraints, but with a day in the library I could seriously improve the bloated history section. We shall see. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree with SandyGeorgia. Even if it were thought that a very long article would be needed even to summarize this topic well, this is not in any shape to be considered featured article class. As Sandy points out, there are too many deficiencies for a featured article. It will be a big task to make the needed improvements and, I think, few if any reviewers available to undertake it. Donner60 (talk) 06:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Agree with all of the above. If there's a collective push to save this article I would chip in but it's way too modern for my usual area and I'm in no position to lead it. Aside from all of the valid criticisms already made, I am surprised to see not a single mention of slaves/slavery in the article. We have Slavery in the Byzantine Empire which seems to suggest that there were major changes to the institution of slavery from how it had been in classical antiquity... Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:35, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Caeciliusinhorto-public it looks like work is progressing; are you in? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping SandyGeorgia. Between Christmas and other real-life stuff I probably can't commit to much but I'll watchlist the page and poke my nose in if I have anything useful to contribute. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

• Move to FARC, it looks unlikely anyone can or will take this on. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:34, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
• Move to FARC per the above. Z1720 (talk) 14:49, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
• Move to FARC it seems like even basic maintenance tags are unaddressed. Apropos of nothing, I am surprised that this article manages to be even longer than my own African humid period. I caveat though that I see though that Biz is doing a bit of work on the article? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:39, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

  I've been taking a break due to life, but before I touch this topic again I want to read Anthony Kaldellis's The new Roman Empire and complete my research on a draft I'm working on. I think there are some easy improvements that could be made. I prefer to collaborate with people and take a section by section approach as I go deep into the sources and more interested in factual accuracy as it supports a narrative than word smithing. Biz (talk) 20:15, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

  I am also reading this book, and I would like to contribute to improving this article the best I can. If I can help you in an adequately directed way, I would be happy to. Remsense聊 13:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

• @Biz and Remsense: What is your timeline like - are you hoping to work on this within the context of FAR? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  Not sure. I don't have time to commit due to life circumstances, have not finished Kaldellis yet because I'm 4 deep in other books, but throw me a bone... @Future Perfect at Sunrise @Furius @DeCausa what do you think is best to improve the article? Biz (talk) 07:04, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  Conversely, I do have time, but I am intimidated in the task and would feel most comfortable as the "junior partner" in an article cleanup where I'm possibly doing tasks specifically requested by others with more intuitive expertise, like I am presently doing at the other FAC Battle of Red Cliffs. This is a big topic of my interest, but it's not my specialty.
  If anyone else wants to help and knows exactly what to do, but doesn't have the time to do it—I have that time at present. I hope that's useful. I've been grabbing the sources cited so I have them on hand. Remsense留 15:47, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

  If you have time, and like to read sources, then I have a project that will prepare us for productive editing. It's the approach I would take and if we set this up right, I'll happily involve myself as well when I find a minute as this is the fun bit for me but also the most time consuming. This can be a parallel process to any editing that occurs. It will align people and can be used to settle Talk disputes. If more people want to involve themselves, it gives a common reference point for editing.

  1. Read all the sources referenced to statements and document with quotes and/or bullet points what they say.

  • Check they actually say what was written
  • Check for patch-writing
  • Use this an opportunity to identify historians who might have written more research that updates our knowledge. Bruno Rochette on language is a good example of that, as he wrote a more recent paper (2018) that, I think, responded to misinterpretations of what he wrote in 2012 (and that Wikipedia used as the basis of its narrative in the Roman Empire article section).
  • Documenting this means you can have other people help with the evaluation

  2. Read the article and sources in Roman Empire and see if there is anything there we can use.

  • There should be synergies between these articles
  • When these articles talk about each other as different empires, we should probably understand why.

  3. Finish reading Kaldellis's The New Roman Empire. See if anything he introduces supports the sources, the narrative or challenges them (the Iconaclasm is an example).

  • If you want to take this article to an even higher level, chase down Treadgold’s 1990s work and see where he and Kaldellis agree or differ in views.
  • In my view, this article should read with what Treadgold and Kaldellis have written in their books as the primary sources as they are the most recent academic historians to write about the topic at length.
  • Specialist historians on sections should be used of course to delve into issues but as we are looking for consensus what Kaldellis and Treadgold have said should be the test for consensus.

  The act of doing this will give us plenty of inspiration to start editing and improving the article on what substantively it needs. As it’s a large topic, I suggest this is done in sections to make this less over-whelming. If there is a way to set this up as a project, other people can contribute. By reading the sources, the edit prioritization will just naturally emerge.

  Further, by doing this, copy editing I think will be more informed and it will allow us to make the article more concise with the content that matters. Biz (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I think we all agree that this shouldn't be an FA. It would be good to get a clear summary of why it's not and of what needs to change.

I have a lot of respect for Biz's work and especially for their careful section by section approach, but that does mean that the talk page tends to focus on points of detail and nomenclature.

Thus, we don't currently have a holistic overview of how the article should change. It would be good to have that. If FA review could give us that, it would be worth doing. If there is another, better venue, we should do that. Furius (talk) 07:41, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. That said, I do think Kaldellis’s book — the first new academic narrative since the 1990s — should be a standard for us to measure the current article beyond the maintenance tasks. Despite some issues, it’s remarkable well written. If we have a group of people commit to reading it before editing we will be all on the same page and the article will be all the better because of it.

One suggestion on approach is we understand this is a big project and do drives every so often on sections. It will make this a sustained effort then (and action will breed other action). If a regular group of editors have experience working together, they can just jive off each other’s edits. If people revert and becomes a problem, we take it to talk. What’s key is we set the expectation that we are blowing up a section and ask for people’s collaboration in edits rather than hash it out on talk. Biz (talk) 05:39, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I am currently already reading it as I've said above, and I agree with your praise. Also with your methodology, I am fully onboard. Remsense留 05:55, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I can work with Kaldellis as a foundation, I also have access to the relevant Cambridge history; I can get going in around a week, if that's acceptable. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:15, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Word counts by major section

• Lead: 571
• Nomenclature: 307
• History: 10,090
• Government and bureaucracy: 924
• Science and medicine: 528
• Culture: 3536
• Economy: 418
• Legacy: 416

Lead can be done last (and where Talk wastes the most time so let's stay away from it). Nomenclature has undergone a major review recently so no need to focus on that now. The Language section in Culture is 519 words, a good 1/7th of that section and larger than the two sections after it -- the languages section in Roman Empire has undergone a recent deep review by me so we can lean on this to re-evaluate this section. Oh, and history, let's look at that as clearly this needs work:

• Early Byzantine history: 1026
• Justinian dynasty: 1081
• Arab invasions and shrinking borders: 1312
• Macedonian dynasty and resurgence (867–1025): 2170
• Crisis and fragmentation: 491
• Komnenian dynasty and the Crusades: 1694
• Decline and disintegration: 1282
• Fall: 309
• Political aftermath: 725

Was hoping to finish Kaldellis before editing again -- with my travel and other commitments, optimistically it won't be before January -- but hey, throw a dart and we can start. Biz (talk) 04:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

For some reason, my non-binding pick is Crisis and fragmentation, it may be easiest to identify the article's broader shortcomings with a short cut from the middle. I can also take a closer look at Language.
Oh, also, the presence of File:Bizansist touchup.jpg seems fairly...not for this decade. It needs to be replaced or likely removed, I'll see what I can source. Remsense留 04:21, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Ah, the most interesting section! Crisis and fragmentation, or rather that time period, is something Kaldellis will be key for as there is a lot of new research since Treadgold.

It's worth introducing the historian Roderick Beaton (with his very excellent, The Greeks: A Global History) who's book tries to make a case that every generation of Greek-speaking regime collapsed when central government was no longer useful. So in the case of the Byzantine Empire, he said long before 1453 and even 1204 occurred. That is to say, this era of 800-1204 is very sensitive how we edit it. Howard-Johnston, Treadgold and Kaldellis are the leading experts on this 'middle' period so I hope you understand my reluctance to have an opinion on this section until I get further with Kadellis. Biz (talk) 04:47, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Let's start at the beginning? (I should note that when this FAR was opened a month ago, I trimmed the original six paragraphs into the current two). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:12, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I would also fully support this approach. Remsense留 14:17, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Logical. Ready to roll. Biz (talk) 15:38, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

With three "Move to FARC' declarations, I'm unclear which way this FAR is headed. If you all are intending to save the star, it will be a very long effort, with work best conducted on talk with bi-weekly updates here, while a discussion of how you intend to tackle the size issue will be helpful. How will the article/work be divided, where will summary style be employed? Alternately, if the thought is that the article will be better served by having it delisted, and re-appearing at FAC once reworked, we need to know that, too, so we can move to FARC. I understand people are still reading the necessary new sources, but over a month in, we've seen very little actual article progress, so direction is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Per above, it seems like we are going to keep it simple, starting with the history section and go over it chronologically. I've already earmarked several graphics that I plan on replacing or possibly removing. Remsense留 14:26, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm willing to work on the article within FAR, but not outside it. To be honest, the size issue is at the moment secondary to more immediate problems (OR, CLOP, etc.) History section first, then others, when we're all hopefully soaked through with knowledge. As we should be going section-to-section, and just move the comments on each to talk after it's satisfactorily completed. This will be a long job but I wouldn't expect anything else for such an important article (Genghis Khan took me 413 days on my lonesome). At the moment, I'm mildly optimistic—we have three competent and active editors, pretty much a blank sheet in front of us, and if it fails then. well, at least we tried? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I support working within FAR though these frameworks for review is not something I have useful experience in. Will need to defer to someone else's lead on that. In terms of process, I'm amenable to suggestions.

If we exclude the Lead and Nomenclature, there are 9 history subheadings, 7 culture subeadings and 4 other major sections. By announcing periodic drives on a section and putting eyes on it, even with just 1-3 of us, we'll rip through and make Temüjin-like progress. If we want to do this right, and on balance of all the things needed, I'd say this a 20-80 week project (budgeting 1-4 weeks per section).

I'll put my hand up on the slowest part of this process which is validating existing sources, evaluating other sources people suggest or from other articles, and otherwise assessing current scholarship. This will result in addressing article issues like CLOP and OR, and by extension assist with condensing the narrative which will address the big billboard problem of size. Happy to document notes and note down direct quotes as I read sources which may assist in making this work more accessible so other people can leverage it. Biz (talk) 19:14, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good. Sandy is probably right that we should do all the nitty grity on this FAR's talk, so we don't clog up the main FAR page with all our scribblings. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:39, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense. So if I understand this right:

• this FAR page (or its talk?) is where we document a FAR review
• this FAR talk is where we put notes evaluating scholarship and/or other notes
• Issues from the above two processes will get posted on the articles Talk page
• We announce updates here every two weeks
• After (or in parallel?) of the FAR, we do section by section drives?

Anything else? Who will perform the FAR? And we officially start sometime-ish this month? Biz (talk) 20:08, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I think the idea is that everything happens on this page or its talk, and that the improving of each section is part of the FAR. At the end, some other editors will take a look at the article and see whether they think it meets WP:FACR. Is that right SandyGeorgia? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:14, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand Biz's question: the FAR is open, the instructions are at the top of WP:FAR, but there is no time pressure. Other editors will evaluate on this page whether the article meets WP:WIAFA, but it is typical for them to wait until after you all are ready for a new look and as long as you keep this page informed and that work is steadily progressing in the right direction. (I am quite concerned that I haven't seen much progress yet, particularly in terms of re-organizing the content towards a trimmer version.) Where you coordinate the work doesn't matter; it can be on the article talk page, or on the talk page of this FAR, but to avoid clogging this page, the nitty gritty need not be conducted here, unless you need broader feedback beyond the day-to-day improvements. This page is for others to eventually declare Close or Move to FARC in the FAR phase, and Keep or Delist if it moves to the FARC phase. Considering there is a very large amount of work to do, my suggestion is that work proceeds on article talk, and that you let this page know bi-weekly how things are going. If progress stalls, editors are likely to suggest Move to FARC to keep the process moving forward. Perhaps an understanding of FAR functioning can be had by reading through Wikipedia:Featured article review/J. K. Rowling/archive1 (which I I believe is the biggest rewrite at FAR to date). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the pointers.

I've started the review with some structure on how we approach it in this article's talk page. Open to feedback to do this differently (in the Talk page, of course). Biz (talk) 19:41, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion of approaches may also take place on the article's talk page. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 03:59, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm continuing the rewrite, aided by the others here; @Z1720 and Jo-Jo Eumerus: as the two remaining !votes, is there anything in particular you want to see addressed? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:40, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

There is at least one section without a source at the last sentence. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:46, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

We'll get to that. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I still see lots of uncited sections. I am happy to cn tag the article if this is requested. Z1720 (talk) 16:02, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes please, that would be a great help! Biz (talk) 16:05, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

I would appreciate feedback on two sections I've been focused on: Transition into an eastern Christian empire and Language. I still want to do more source work (last paragraph of languages needs verification; waiting for a new book on slavery which may improve the narrative) but I thought now is as good a time than ever to ask if I am rewriting this article to the standard that is expected. (I'm finding it a challenge to balance summary prose with comprehensiveness and neutrality...I've never brought an article to FA standard so I apologise for what may seem obvious to others.) Biz (talk) 00:23, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Christmas Day update: Biz has been working on the language section, while my grand reduction of the history section has gotten slightly distracted; I will be back there shortly, however. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:45, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

  • I've completed my read (40+ hours) of Anthony Kaldellis's The New Roman Empire which was my precondition before I start work on this article.
  • I'm currently focused on "society". It's two-thirds done. @AirshipJungleman29 is taking point on History and it's not an easy task.
    • Languages: need to validate last paragraph sources and final review of copy. This section was completely rewritten by me.
    • Transition into an eastern Christian empire: need to validate two sources still and final proof read to make sure I'm happy with the copy. This section was completely rewritten by me.
      • when I thought I had finished this, someone added a paragraph on slavery, and as I validated the sources, I ended up reading a book Slaveries of the First Millennium by Youval Rotman which helped rewrite it and which is also helping with a lot of other content (like marriage which sits in women right now)
    • I've asked for feedback on the above because I'm not confident in my ability to meet FA standard, and before I embark on the rest of the article.
    • I'm currently reviewing the "women" section and have more literature to read as it's a topic I have no expertise in
      • I'm drafting a new section on socioeconomic and legal rights, that will incorporate sources from the women section I'm reading and that will reduce that section but also make the content stronger I hope (ie, combined with other sources, broader perspective).
      • I'm still evaluating if there needs to be something on "gender" (as part of women or separate) which is something that is coming up in modern scholarship. Can only resolve this by reading a book by Leora Neville
  • Due to life commitments, I expect to be slow moving until February 5th.

  Biz (talk) 20:43, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

  History rewrite is ongoing...slooowwwwly. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 21:12, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
  • sloooooow progress. should be able to crack on next week, however. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 05:50, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Update: I hope to make some progress this weekend. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:25, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

  Life got in the way for me that I needed to depriortitise this. But I'm still committed. My current focus is on the government and military. Working on how to find a balance of what I can do with more consistent contributions so I don't disappear again. Biz (talk) 22:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

• Wikitrivia comment: This is undisputedly the longest-lived FA on the English Wikipedia, going as far back as mid-November 2001 (or rather, August 2001 per Wayback)—a total of ±22½ years. Given its tenure and current longstanding rescue mission, it'll already be too soon if the star gets taken down. (Having typed this out, I now feel really old.) Details and backstory at WP:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-07-21/Dispatches. --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 05:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
  • According to Wikipedia:BrilliantProse, 26 May 2001, 08:00:45 Slgrandson. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:38, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29, Biz, and Remsense: How is it going? QuicoleJR (talk) 19:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Halted, and probably will be for the next three weeks due to RL responsibilities. Working on adjacent topics, however, and intending to return. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Same with me. IRL challenges, but have every intention to continue. Appreciate the follow up. Time has flown this past month… Biz (talk) 04:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I copy-edited the "Society" section, does that section look better. CosXZ (talk) 21:26, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thank you! @AirshipJungleman29 added that copy editing tag because I wanted feedback on my writing and actually I've been waiting for this and is partly why I paused my contributions. I would appreciate your continued involvement in copy-editing as we re-write sections. Personally, I'm trying hard to write a balanced and modern narrative supported by stronger sources but it's easy to get caught in detail that another editor can easily correct. Biz (talk) 20:33, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Biz please try to iron out your additions in drafts, before adding them to the rewritten article. Take for example the second paragraph of this edit—none of the three sentences make grammatical sense, and I additionally don't see what relevance it has to a section titled "Central government". ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

By second paragraph, you mean the sentence starting with Phocas?

I'll review the two new sentences on nomos empsychos and re-evaluate which seems to be the only thing you cut from the revision I made. Biz (talk) 01:31, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi all, came across this a few days ago and thought I'd offer my help if there are any particular sections that could do with editing/sourcing improvements? @AirshipJungleman29@Biz & co.? Jr8825 • Talk 21:51, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Great! We are working our way down the article, @AirshipJungleman29's driving the history rewrite and also worked on Nomenclature which I also previously worked on, I've completed my work on Society and recently finished Governance. I've gone into a rabbit hole understanding one statement about nomos empsychos and related the impact of Justinian's code, which probably won't belong on this article but reflecting on its relevance still, and plan to focus on military, diplomacy, law after that which has some overlap on the work I've already done.

Economy, architecture, Daily life, Science and medicine, Religion would be next after that so that would be a great place you could pick up on. Arts @Aza24 has previously said they would work on, but otherwise open field! Biz (talk) 23:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Starting work on literature in my sandbox. Should get to Art and Music after – Aza24 (talk) 19:09, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

I've completed a draft for a new literature section, see User:Aza24/sandbox (perma link: [3]). @Biz:, does it seem too long? I was going for as concise as possible, but don't know if I've overstepped. I'll paste it in after I copy edit and go through the sources once more. Should get started on the art section in a few days. – Aza24 (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I've responded with feedback. @AirshipJungleman29 should also take a look. Biz (talk) 03:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I've made some adjustments (moved your comments to the bottom of the page with replies). Aza24 (talk) 04:40, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, don't have much time to take a look at this at present. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No worries! The Byzantine Empire will be waiting, since you can't go back to Constantinople anyways. Aza24 (talk) 21:10, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

My new literature section has been added. Thanks again Biz for your feedback! I'll look towards doing Art next sometime soon – Aza24 (talk) 02:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your work. I've updated the status of the article here: Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Byzantine Empire/archive3. Let's use that page to coordinate on the work, and keep this page for general updates. Biz (talk) 03:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Understood! Nice system you got there Aza24 (talk) 16:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

• After 8 and a half months, this article is still not close to meeting the FA criteria. There are still uncited sections, including the entire "Military", "Clothing", and "Relationship with Western Christendom" sections. Progress also seems to have stalled, with information added recently getting reverted several times. While I appreciate the work done to try to save this, it might be better if it goes to FARC so that it can be evaluated for delisting. Z1720 (talk) 21:33, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

  I've removed the three sections until more work can be done on them.

  If there is a list of specific issues you want done by a certain time period, I'm happy to prioritise this over the line by line by section review that is currently occurring (albeit at a leisurely pace as I did not think there was a rush and it requires readings and reflection)

  As for the reverting of some of my edits, this has not been a problem for me, as it keeps me to a higher standard when done respectfully. And of the litany of other editors where this occurs, it's been appropriate as we've had talk page consensus on these issues. But I can understand it does not look good. Biz (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

• The concern is not about specific sections: it's that FAR is about evaluating whether the article should still be considered an FA. Having extended comments on a review makes the FAR page difficult to load, and discussions on article improvements should happen on the article's talk page, while small corrections should be discussed on nomination pages such as FAR. If the article is so far away from the criteria that it cannot be fixed in a couple of weeks, my opinion is to delist it and work on it without the time pressures of FAR, and it can be renominated at FAC when it is ready. Since this has been open for 8 months, and citation problems still exist (even after the above sections were removed) my opinion is that the article probably needs a lot of work to get it back to FA status, which should happen on the article's talk page. Z1720 (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

  Understood. I defer to yours and others judgement. Personally, I like the idea of keeping this as the oldest FA on Wikipedia so would prefer a process where I have time to improve it which is how I understand FARC with extensions is.

  I do want to say that the articles talk page has been inhibiting progress on this article these last few years. Since this FAR started, I've become along with others one of the top authors in the articles history. The work I do is not superficial and will take months. For example, the previous FAR editors added citations but when I checked one, it was to the contents pages (as I read all the sources); and this Bleicken book I've hunted down that is referenced in modern scholarship I've come across is referenced in other articles (ie, Principate) and now that I've read half of it says something completely different to what people think it says (ie, terms like principate/dominate need to be dropped, it was the same legal system since Augustus, there was no hellenistic autocracy change in the emperor which nomos empsychos has been used to represent, etc). Biz (talk) 19:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I went down a nomos empsychos rabbit hole, reaching out to academics as it's a multi-disciplinary issue across history, jurisprudence and philosophy. As for why, I've come to realise it's important for this topic, as it underpins narrative bias historians have (ie, Prinzipat und Dominat, Bleicken 1978, 22–24 uses it for periodisation of the Roman Empire that others refer to; Kaldellis all together rejects it; and it separately has had a huge impact on medieval and modern law but that's beyond the scope of this article though it does link to the section about law as it was in Justinian's code). If someone can help me obtain access to Bleicken which I've had trouble with, I would appreciate that. UPDATE: it only took a few hours and two months but I found this out-of-print book that all the scholars reference; now I just need to learn German...

Military is a complex topic I'm reading about now and plan to draft new copy hopefully this month when I get some free time. Biz (talk) 20:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Nikkimaria and @Z1720, I've worked on the bibliography formatting, namely the links to authors and editors, locations of publication and consistent use of ISBN13. Could you review this? Once this is OK'd then I can start work on the reference formatting. Matarisvan (talk) 06:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan: Feel free to ping me when this article is ready to be reviewed. I could consider the article ready when there is no uncited text, the prose size is reduced (currently at over 13,000 words), and the article has been copyedited (anyone can do that, or even split the work). Z1720 (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I was looking for a review of just the formatting of the bibliography. I believe it would be much better to do piecemeal reviews since, as you said, the article size is large. Wdyt? Please let me know, Matarisvan (talk) 07:04, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan: I'd prefer to wait until the whole article is ready: there have been times when editors asked me to review parts, only to disappear later. However, the following listed sources are not used as inline citations, and should either be included or removed: Dennis, George T. (1985), Chrysos, Evangelos (1992), Bury, John Bagnell; Philotheus (1911), Antonucci, Michael (1993), Seeck, Otto, ed. (1876). Z1720 (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I will look through these sources and see if anything in there can be added here. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 16:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Those are all references that were previously in the diplomacy section, a review completed after Matarisvan's review. I reviewed diplomacy in late July and agree that they can be removed (except the Chrysos that in now listed as a chapter in Shepherd). Biz (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

@Biz, could you confirm whether it would be alright if these 5 unused sources were removed? If so, I will remove them. Matarisvan (talk) 08:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, though I think since this was discussed it has been removed. We would love it if you could continue to join us in the review, the more eyes the better. Let's discuss the work on this talk or the articles's talk and keep this page just for pulse general updates. Biz (talk) 16:06, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

• I am free once again, and expect progress to be made swiftly and efficiently over the next month. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 23:55, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
• Quick update: we now have two subject-matter experts updating/rewriting the sections on both economy and religion. I expect to get to the art section soon. – Aza24 (talk) 05:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comprehensive status update as of August 20 2024

 Doing... History and Arts are progressing but I defer to Airship and Aza given they are updating here. I'm working on Law next

 Doing... Religion was rewritten by an editor with expertise in the topic (Jenhawk777), Economy similarly for the first paragraph by another editor (Graearms) but needs more work, and both will need to be reviewed by different editor later.

 Done Governance and Diplomacy have been recently reviewed.

 Done Also reviewed, but new since the FAR started: Geography, Military (Army, Navy).

 Done Previous sections that are now finalised: Society. They include Transition into an Eastern Christian empire (previously in history), Slavery (new section), Socio-economic (new section partially from women before), Women, and Language.

 Done Nomenclature from before

 Done Infobox has now more tightly regulated and simplified.

 Done Matarisvan has improved the bibliography and converted the remaining references into SFN on the unreviewed sections.

 Not done Other than the before mentioned, what remains is a review of the more straightforward topics of Flags and insignia, Daily Life (Cuisine, Recreation, and we might add Clothing), Science/medicine, and legacy.

 Not done Airship will be proposing a new article layout, which we may implement once we complete the review to restructure the content and address lingering word count issues, as well as to make the content more accessible

Overall: We may not be done but the work we've done has now made all of us in the before mentioned 5 of the top 10 authors of the current article which reflects how extensive this content review has been. We also have a battle tested standard on source usage which if we stick to will put it in the strongest state its ever been while also reflecting the latest scholarship, breathing in a new life for this FA. Biz (talk) 22:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:26, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Still going, no intention of stopping; article is being gradually improved. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

    Law has been rewritten and the review is complete. SandyGeorgia's long standing issues, except length, addressed. Flags and insignia, Daily life (Cuisine, Recreation, Clothing) as well as a new dedicated section for Education in Society have entered into different stages of review right now, with many thanks to Matarisvan this past month for moving us forward. Biz (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:16, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria, we now have only three sections left to rewrite, namely Science & medicine, Legacy and Arts. Other than that, there are only two sections yet to be fully reviewed, namely Daily life and Economy. Once these are done, we have 6 images which need sourcing (compared to the original 12) and TOOBIG issues left to address. I think we could then put the FAR up for voting, though other editors working on the rewrite have raised some more issues which might take a little more time to resolve. Matarisvan (talk) 13:45, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  The reviews for Flags and insignia, Education, and Clothing are now complete. I plan to focus on Recreation, Cuisine, and Religion next. Biz (talk) 05:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  Shouldn't we simply go ahead with delisting at this point? It's been over a year now with no real end in sight, and much as I appreciate the efforts at reworking and fixing parts of the article, none of the newly contributed text has been of a quality that we can simply assume to be fit for an FA (just had a quick browse through the "society" and "cuisine" sections, and they are definitely nowhere near FA quality at this point.) All of this will have to go through a new, rigorous review in any case, and that new review can just as well be a fully fresh FA re-nomination. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:04, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  That might be for the best. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

  I think it’s a fair to say the rewritten content should not be assumed to meet some standard. But given the ordeal it has been to go through this article, I can confidently say it’s better now than it was before. I am including the work done by previous FAR reviewers who did not do as thorough a job on the sources. Which is to say we should have de listed it a year ago.

  De listing it now may impact the drive to complete this work. I’ll support whatever decision. Biz (talk) 07:45, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Future Perfect at Sunrise, the Cuisine subsection was rewritten recently, and its rewrite has not been completed yet. As for the Society section, could you point out some issues so that they can be ironed out? As for the rest of the article, once the pending Arts and Daily life sections have been reviewed by the editors working on the article, we were planning to put up the article for reviews and voting by other editors. I don't think a delist would be wise at this time, the standards will always keep rising and FACs or FARs may never pass. Matarisvan (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

  Well, it's just the overall impression of turgid, tortured prose, pretty much throughout. Over-use of heavy nominalizations for describing events and developments (which could be more naturally expressed by verbs); over-use of heavy post-modifiers; imprecise connectors; incorrect relatives; over-use of "would" for things that should be narrated in simple past tense, overuse of "with..." participial clauses, and so on. And much of this incoherence on the purely stylistic level is a symptom of incoherence on the content level – incoherently detailed claims in one part of a sentence that remain impossible to understand because of lack of detail in the remaining context. It's pretty much everywhere, most pervasively in the texts contributed by Biz, who introduces new problems with virtually every new content edit he makes (e.g. the latest one: [4]. Game-boards became increasingly popular in all parts of society, and which along with dramatic performance and sports, reflected the transition to entertainment for private pleasure.. Where to start? Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:32, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Examples from the "cuisine" section, for illustration: Back in August this year, this section had a sentence, in the context of describing Byzantine foods that seemed strange to foreigners: The garos fish sauce condiment was also not much appreciated by the unaccustomed; Liutprand of Cremona described being served food covered in an "exceedingly bad fish liquor.". Arguably a bit too much detail, but overall decently written. When Biz first rewrote this in November [5], it came to sound as if the sauce was universally disliked (i.e. including the Byzantines themselves): … while the garos fish sauce condiment which still had a presence from classical times was not much appreciated and described by Liutprand of Cremona as food covered in an "exceedingly bad fish liquor" (which also has an incorrect relative clause, and an incoherent description of a sauce as "food covered in" a sauce). In the latest revisions since then [6], the sentence was left out, but now we have "fermented fish sauce" in an enumeration of the foods that continued from Byzantine times into the modern era (with a link to the modern fish sauce used in East Asia). Problems just keep coming and going. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:04, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  If this is feedback you're willing to continue, I'm happy to action. It's a Wiki, which means to me this is a constant work-in-process. Validating sources takes a lot of time. Writing as close to the source language but not close captioning leads to awkward language sometimes. Writing simply can also contribute to turgidity and nominalisation. All this is compounded by the fact that we need a quicker turnaround.

  Whereas the content incoherence you reference, using game-boards, that I worked on this week with recreation: it's a new but much stronger single source I added and it's one of the conclusions that the Roman culture that formed the Hippodrome led to something that resembles private sport today. With the contrast to the start of the paragraph "Chariot races.... and some wild-animal shows..." of how it started as public entertainment. My philosophy is a paragraph should communicate one big idea but yes if you look just at this sentence you will miss this.

  For these reasons, it's appreciated as having more eyes on the copy once sources are verified/expanded is helpful. As was the case with this section this week, I end up spending hours reading/searching sources. However, if this is a systemic criticism of my participation, let's delist as we need to remove the spirit of Momus on this article that's haunted the Talk page for years and that prevents well-intentioned progress.

  A comment on the Garos fish sauce given this reflects my incoherent thinking. This entire section was written as if it was by (and for) Greeks. Using universal language (who cares it was called Garos) to a page about fermented fish sauce (which mentions Garos) seemed appropriate. While an article talking about East Asian cuisine is not relevant to the people not part of the 700m in East and South East Asia, you can scroll a bit further to see Worcestershire sauce, which makes it relatable to modern English audiences. There's something there for everyone. Further, removing a Lombard diplomat's primary source that was entertaining takes away some style, yes. But more valuable, it's the elimination of these unnecessarily opinionated Western European sources that's needed, as it disproportionately denigrates. Biz (talk) 19:41, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Why do I have the feeling you didn't take in any of the concrete points of criticism about these two passages I raised? Do you really not notice the grammatical and logical fallacies even when they are right there in front of your eyes? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  I appreciate the feedback and would like more of it. I think I made that clear. However the tone of your commentary comes across as a character assassination. Which is why I'm asking: if it's feedback, let's continue this and implied in that is not here and perhaps on Talk or with tags to do it in a more consistent way, if not let's delist and find some one else who cares to take this back to FA one day. Biz (talk) 20:33, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Biz you have made three attempts to write one paragraph. Out of interest, do you see anything to improve in the prose of the third attempt? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  If my third attempt is bad, I will need you to explain that. The first two reverts you made, I appreciated your reverts. My first edit tried to use source language and it was too abstract (the original text was egregiously off). My second attempt created a double speak first sentence when the text was simplified. Not sure what else you saw. My third attempt the only thing I can see you have issue with is "gradually began to impact all facets of life" is not informative enough. Biz (talk) 18:13, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  "especially after the support of Constantine" is very clunky; it should be "especially after Constantine supported it" or similar. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 18:24, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  By clunky, is it an issue of tone? Less words is my preference as well, but it also shapes what is expressed.

  If we're comparing (A) "Christianity gradually began to impact all facets of life, especially after the support of Constantine" versus (B) "Christianity gradually began to impact all facets of life, especially after Constantine supported it" whats the difference

  • Tone (A) is more formal and abstract. It emphasizes the support as a concept rather than Constantine's personal action versus (B) being being more direct and active, giving a conversational tone
  • Focus (A) shifts focus slightly towards the broader effects of Constantine's support, treating it as an event or state. Versus (B) which focuses on Constantine's personal decision or action as a turning point
  • Immediacy (A) creates a sense of distance, suggesting that Constantine's support was a factor, but not necessarily emphasizing his active role versus (B) which makes Constantine's agency clearer, underlining his active participation in promoting Christianity

  The issue for me, and why I wrote it like this, is do we want to say Constantine was the decision maker or do we want to show instead the historical impact of his support? Biz (talk) 18:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  No, it is an issue of grammar. Very little of what you wrote above is relevant, or even correct. This whole sequence is making me seriously doubt if you can write at the prose quality needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:16, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Biz, perhaps we should reach out to some prose people on Wikipedia. Both John and Tenryuu come to mind. I could leave one of them a message? Or you're welcome to do so. Aza24 (talk) 20:02, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  You are correct in assessing an issue because you know the prose standard better than most, but you're not diagnosing this usefully or answering my questions to help me align, which makes me question this sequence as well. The sentence is grammatically correct from the English I know (subject-verb agreement, logical phrasing, use of the prepositional phrase) and it has clarity. The issue you raised is more precisely specifically tone and emphasis. The tone I can change to less formal which you imply but the emphasis you're not addressing and is most relevant as it impacts the meaning.

  "Christianity gradually began shaping every aspect of life, especially as it gained support from Constantine." changes the tone without changing the meaning. Your version changed the tone and meaning.

  @Aza24 That might be helpful. Absent another opinion on this minor issue which is representative of a bigger issue, I endorse the original post to delist. Biz (talk) 20:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  (pinged by Biz) I was pinged by the aforementioned user to give some input. As I do not deal with FARs, I do not concern myself with the criteria it has for articles. I will only offer my thoughts on the sentence in question.

  The issue with sentence A is that there's a misplaced modifier. I could assume that Constantine decided to support all facets of life as opposed to Christianity. Sentence B avoids this problem because of the two antecedents in the sentence, only Christianity agrees with the pronoun it.

  That being said, you can try and preserve the construction support of Constantine if it were placed as a parenthetical element immediately after Christianity. Personally I prefer using the Saxon genitive here to cut down on the wordiness. That is,

  Christianity, especially with Constantine's support, gradually began to impact all facets of life.

  —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 23:56, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

  Arts update: My schedule has cleared up, so I'm able to give this much more attention. I'm working on expanding the Art section (https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=User:Aza24/sandbox&oldid=1260909021) and should be finished within the next few days. I'm planning to combine the art and architecture sections (already done at the Middle Ages artcle); the two are typically treated together in all the sources I'm coming across. After that I'll tackle the music section, a topic I'm already familiar with.

  I suspect the 12th-century renaissance section will be removed entirely. Its not really a thing in Byzantine literature/art, both of which have an earlier 'renassance' amid the Macedonian Renaissance. It seems rather haphzardly constructed, with information better belonging to other sections. – Aza24 (talk) 06:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  Alright, art/architecture done... Aza24 (talk) 00:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

  Music section done! Aza24 (talk) 07:06, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Two things about the history section @AirshipJungleman29:

• I'm not sure the Sasanian map makes sense, seems too out of place to have an entirely different empire's territory here; if it was a map of both the Byzantine and Sasanian at that period, it might make more sense. At the moment, it may just confused unsuspecting readers
  • I am not attached to any of the images, providing they are relevant; feel free to adjust as you want.
• I would definitely suggest that the section headers have more than just dates. They would seem more helpful as navigational tools with something like "Justinian and Heraclian dynasties: 518–717" – Aza24 (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
  • I agree completely. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Featured article removal candidates

Place the most recent review at the top. If the nomination is just beginning, place under Featured Article Review, not here.

Boogeyman 2

Notified: PanagiotisZois, Paradoxasauruser, WikiProject Film

Review section

I am not sure this article meets the WP:FACRITERIA as raised by multiple users in the talk page (thread 1; thread 2; FAC, notice given).

Regarding the following specific criteria:

- well-written: the prose is informative but somewhat unpolished in some places, and could be rewritten to be more engaging

- comprehensive: Production, release, and sequel may benefit from expansion

- well-researched: the article would benefit from additional sources and is missing citations, for instance, no citation for the Cast and for "Evolution of the killer's mask, dubbed Boogie Mask". NB: I wasn't sure if Cast needs citations in general but I have seen that many good articles have it, e.g. The Thing (1982 film)#Cast.

- media: lacks significant use of images and other media, where appropriate, as required for FA.

N.B.: the talk page has not addressed these changes (the previous thread is also from 7 years ago) so I suspect the original authors may be inactive. Caleb Stanford (talk) 23:08, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - How is the lack of images to get this demoted from Featured Articles? GamerPro64 22:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. @Caleb Stanford: First of all, the FAR notifications step is not optional. Please complete step 6, "Notify relevant parties", per the instructions at the top of WP:FAR. PanagiotisZois is still an active editor. Second... 1, 3, and 4 are not very actionable as they stand. Fair-use requirements are fairly strict on Wikipedia (see WP:NFC). If you want to upload some and think you can justify them, great, but they are only rarely required. Jaws (film) is an example of a FA-class article that only uses a movie poster as a fair-use image, say. For 1, this is a vague comment. I'm sure some people can be found to disagree with any of the prose. Do you have any particular examples of difficult-to-fix paragraphs that need rewriting that aren't just stylistic preferences? And for 3, Cast sections are often implicitly considered sourced to the credits of a work itself. If you've found a source you'd love to include which has the full cast, sure, add it, but if you'd just be adding a citation to the film's credits, it's not required. In the same way, the mask caption is just stating how the image was compiled. Now, that said, I do agree it would be nice if the uploader could add more specific links in the image upload (e.g. the timestamp of the still, a link to the page of the blog, etc.), but this isn't a significant enough issue to FAR most likely.
  • The main possibly actionable complaint here is #2, comprehensive. The article is a bit on the short side. However, there is a range of opinions on how deep an article should go, and an "overview" approach is valid too. But it helps to be more specific. Are there in-depth sources that are not currently consulted in the article, but should be? What are they? That may be what is helpful here. SnowFire (talk) 02:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC)
• Procedural comment. I've just made the required notifications myself. Not a huge deal but coordinators might consider starting the "clock" on moving to FARC as starting slightly later due to the delay. SnowFire (talk) 17:07, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
  • @SnowFire: Thank you and my apologies for the omission, I thought I had pinged relevant parties but must have missed it. I agree with the criticism that some of my feedback is not actionable and am happy to make it more so. Caleb Stanford (talk) 01:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I have also notified User:Paradoxasauruser based on past contributions. There is also User:You've gone incognito but this appears to be a sockpuppet account that has been banned (12.6% contribution to the page content). Caleb Stanford (talk) 01:48, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
• Move to FARC: To be honest, I don't think the article is exactly FA-worthy. At least, not for me, based on the kind of work I expect of myself when I work on media-related articles nowadays. Just looking at the "Reception" section, for example, the section is extremely small and uses only 6 sources. Granted, this is mostly due to the lack of overall sources that reviewed the film. Another issue is that outside of IGN, none of the other sources are exactly high-quality. The section also relies a lot on quotations from the sources, rather than paraphrasing them and what each reviewer had to say about the film.

Regarding the topic of "Comprehensiveness", while I do agree that the sections on "Production" and "Release" should ideally be longer, back when I wrote the article, this was all of the sources I could find. Maybe there's more, but I didn't find them back in 2017. However, I disagree that the section on the sequel needs to be longer. It's not really necessary for article to place much emphasis on preceeding or succeeding installments.

Lastly, much of the "Production" section relies on primary sources or ones that may not necessarily be reliable. There's the blog of Renee O'Connor, that of Jerad S. Marantz, and the website Mental Floss. As for the "Reception" section, I'm not sure about the reliable of the sources regarding the film's premiere at Grauman's Chinese Theatre, and its theatrical release in Russia and Italy. Taking some of these things into account, I think the article should be delisted. It may be good enough for GA-status, but definitely not for FA, unless more sources are found to expand certain sections and replace the more low-quality / primary sources.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

• • @PanagiotisZois: Thanks for joining the discussion here and sorry for missing the ping earlier! I agree with the comments you wrote above. Caleb Stanford (talk) 01:42, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Thanks for the ping, @Caleb Stanford! hard to believe it's been seven years since I copyedited this guy. iirc it was to bump it up from GA to FA status.

reviewing it now, the text could use some polish, and maybe another image or two. But for comprehensiveness and research quality, I don't think there's room for significant improvement. It's pretty solid length without going overboard, and being a sequel to an already bargain bin horror flick, most of its citeable coverage will be from the indie film scene, cult horror blogs, first-hand behind the scenes, etc. Unless it gets rereleased by a boutique label I don't see that changing.

I'm biased since I worked on it and love horror (with a special soft spot for dinky entries such as these) - so I'm inclined to let it ride as FA. but! i've also never worked too closely with article status qualifications, and am open to it returning to GA status if the community feels that it doesn't belong in the FA rotation.

hope that helps one way or the other. never done one of these before! Paradoxasauruser (talk) 23:29, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised in the review section include prose and sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Shoshone National Forest

Notified: MONGO, WikiProject Protected areas, WikiProject United States, diff for talk page notification (2023-05-16)

Review section

Issues about this Featured Article—primarily, outdated info—were raised in January 2021. The article was then listed at WP:FARGIVEN in May 2023 when updates failed to materialize in the preceding year. Since then, other than rescuing dead links, no major updates have been made; a major contributor who is just now notified hasn't been active for at least one year. George Ho (talk) 21:03, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC reluctantly. The issues here aren't especially extensive, and I'd be happy to give MONGO or anyone else interested more time to address them. But it's been four years since the initial notification, over a year since MONGO was last active, and two months since this FAR was started, so I do think we need to move toward delisting unless someone wants to take this on. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 01:16, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
• Move to FARC – no work being done to address issues. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Currency. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:39, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Northrop YF-23

Notified: Example user, Example WikiProject, [diff for talk page notification]

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because over the past few months, I've added a considerably amount of additional information about the aircraft's design history gathered from multiple sources. The prose has doubled in length, so I would like other editors to review my work to ensure that it still meets FA standards. Steve7c8 (talk) 22:33, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi Steve7c8, did you discuss this on the article's talk page at all? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Negative. However, given the amount of content added since it was last listed as FA over a decade ago such that it has more than doubled in size, with much of the new prose written by myself, I believe that this warrants a FA review especially from a neutral party to ensure that it meets the quality standards. Steve7c8 (talk) 04:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Could you please notify other editors and relevant WikiProjects? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Steve7c8, I've worked a little bit on the article. I believe you have the technical knowledge of the subject, while I can do source and reference formatting. I changed the sources to cite book or cite journal templates, and changed some of the references to sfn tags. Would this and any further work I do on formatting be okay with you? Matarisvan (talk) 06:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

The changes look good. I'll notify some other editors and relevant WikiProjects to have another go at it. Steve7c8 (talk) 15:48, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi Steve, we need a link for the Aerospace Daily article, otherwise any reviewer doing spotchecks would fail the source review. Matarisvan (talk) 12:52, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The original link from years ago is gone and I don’t think it’s ever been archived, but it’s transcribed in a forum post here, which I’m not sure is considered adequate. Steve7c8 (talk) 15:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Can you post the link here, I can search for it on archival sites. Matarisvan (talk) 09:27, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't have the original link. Perhaps search for key words and phrases in that article that's transcribed in the forum post? Steve7c8 (talk) 23:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Then we'll have to remove this reference, we already have another one (Chong 2016) at the same place. Is that OK with you? Matarisvan (talk) 13:08, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

That's fine then. Steve7c8 (talk) 21:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, @Steve7c8, do you have access to either of Sweetman 1991a or 1991b? I put in these in the sfn tags on a placeholder basis as I wasn't able to get access to them. This is the last thing left to do here, once it is done we can safely say the article is back again at FA level. Matarisvan (talk) 16:30, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Currently I don't. I have limited access to these sources as I'm in the middle of an SLTE currently, but in a few days I'll check my shelves. Steve7c8 (talk) 19:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

As a follow-up, @Matarisvan, a friend of mine has hard copies of these publications, I can borrow them if need be. Steve7c8 (talk) 14:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Both of these, @Steve7c8? That would be great, we would be able to finally close this FA review. Matarisvan (talk) 14:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan, I'm not quite sure how to Wikimail these sources. My friend has the physical books on hand which I borrowed. Steve7c8 (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

You would just need to photograph the pages we have cited here, and attach these photographs to an email which you can send through Wikipedia. Also, I'll be reviewing the YF-22 article at ACR soon, I haven't forgotten about it, just have too much work both on WP and IRL. Matarisvan (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan I have emailed you one of them, working to borrow the other book again to get pictures. Steve7c8 (talk) 13:14, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

@Steve7c8, received. Working on spot checks on refs cited to this source. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 13:48, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Matarisvan I have emailed you the other one. Steve7c8 (talk) 20:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Comments

• What establishes that Speciality Press located at Forest Lake, Minnesota has a reputation for fact checking, etc? The article is cites several works published by this company, which appears to lack and internet presence.
• If File:FB-23 Rapid Theater Attack.png is a Northrop Grumman image as stated, it's been wrongly uploaded. The source PDF doesn't establish that it was released under a creative commons licence.
• I suspect that none of the external links are needed. Nick-D (talk) 00:45, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not familiar with Specialty Press overall and I believe they went under just recently. However, the cited books in this article are written by people with direct connections to the YF-23, namely Alfred "Paul" Metz, YF-23 PAV-1 test pilot, and Air Force Materiel Command researchers and archiver, Tony Landis and reputed aviation author Dennis Jenkins.
• If that is the case, I can upload a non-free thumbnail version under fair use.

Steve7c8 (talk) 00:13, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:05, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria, I believe we may be able to put up this FAR for votes soon. I just received scans of Sweetman 1991b from @Steve7c8, now to complete my review I only need scans of Sweetman 1991a, which could be available soon. Matarisvan (talk) 13:48, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Matarisvan I have Wiki-mailed pictures of both sources to you. Do we have enough to close out this review? Steve7c8 (talk) 14:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Hi @Steve7c8, I did spot checks for both sources and all of them seem to be ok. I can conclude my review, but the votes of other reviewers will be needed for the review to be closed fully. Matarisvan (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  I forgot to add this in the above comment, but I would like to vote keep. Matarisvan (talk) 16:53, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nick-D, before you leave for your break, could we have your vote? Matarisvan (talk) 13:49, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• The FB-23 image did originate from Northrop Grumman, but it was published by a U.S. Air Force article. Is that not considered a U.S. government image then? Steve7c8 (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

• My understanding is that the original image needs to be the work of a US government employee to be covered by this PD category. Nick-D (talk) 09:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Gog the Mild, @Matarisvan, @Nikkimaria I've seen some conflicting information on this, how should we adjudicate? Steve7c8 (talk) 17:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

• It's not quite so cut and dried. A work of a US government employee as part of their official duties is PD. A work of a non-government employee can be PD as USGov, for example if there was a contract in place establishing that, but it's not a guarantee. See Copyright_status_of_works_by_the_federal_government_of_the_United_States#Limitations. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:24, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

@Steve7c8, I would suggest removing the FB-23 image, since its copyright status is uncertain per Nikkimaria's comment above. I would reccomend adding an image of the FB-22 in its place, because it was competing with the FB-23, and because I reckon there would be more copyright free images of the FB-22 available. Matarisvan (talk) 17:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I've replaced the FB-23 image with a fair use version (it will be automatically downscaled) to resolve this issue. Furthermore, I've removed most of the external links, except for the NASA gallery which I think is relevant. Steve7c8 (talk) 16:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

• I forgot about the external links, and I agree that none of them seem necessary. I'm okay with removing them, but I'm not sure if I should without consensus from others in this review.

Steve7c8 (talk) 17:50, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

• There are a number of areas where a copy edit is needed. Some examples below.

• Translation of technical terminology per Wikipedia:Make technical articles understandable and Wikipedia is not a scientific journal is needed in some places. Eg: "The YF-23 was statically unstable — having relaxed stability — and flown through fly-by-wire with the flight control surfaces controlled by a central management computer system." and the following five sentences. Or "the chiseled shape of the nose generated vortices to improve high angle of attack (AoA) characteristics".
• There seems a lot of reliance on providing Wikilinks rather than in line explanations, falling foul of MOS:NOFORCELINK: "Do use a link wherever appropriate, but as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links." Implementation of this is subject to debate, but taking the article as a whole it seems to me to fall the wrong side of the line.
• There seems to be an overuse of upper-case initial letters. Eg "Engineering and Manufacturing Development" or "Avionics Ground Prototype"
• Some abbreviations are given but not reused. Eg "a domestic 5th/6th generation (F-3) fighter" or "Avionics Ground Prototype (AGP)".
• Or "infrared homing (IR) missile detection" where the abbreviation is given at the third mention of infrared, which is not mentioned again.
• The paragraph starting "The Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) launched ..." should be deleted. Its only connection to the F-23 is "there was speculation that it could offer a modernized version of the F-23 to the JASDF". This seems to be "going into unnecessary detail" and/or not using summary style.

The article is not IMO to FAC standard. It is getting there and has clearly had a lot of TLC, but it needs a little more. Note that the examples given above are just that - examples. Resolving just these will not bring the article up to scratch. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:16, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

We can address these in stride.

• Would the phrase "flown through fly-by-wire which provides artificial stability" help clarify that?
• "the chiseled shape of the nose with its sharp edges generated vortices to improve high angle of attack (AoA) characteristics"
• I'll do a pass through this article to try to address this, although I would appreciate it if others can help because as an engineer, some of the terminology that's intuitive for me may not be for most readers.
• Those are formal names in DoD acquisition language and also ATF program language, so I'm not sure how they should be handled.
• I'll do a pass through to eliminate unneeded acronyms.
• In this instance, I agree that there is a bit of undue weight. The only reported fact is that Northrop Grumman had offered to partner with the Japanese industry for the F-3 program, but no information was given on what was proposed, and as far as I know, the F-23 derivative is the journalist's own speculation. So again, this may be undue weight and if others agree I can adjust the wording.

Steve7c8 (talk) 22:54, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Moving to get additional perspectives. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

• Delist The external links still obviously don't comply with WP:EL. Nick-D (talk) 09:45, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

  See my amended reply above. Steve7c8 (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Bart Simpson

Notified: WikiProject The Simpsons, WikiProject Television, WikiProject Animation, WikiProject Comedy, WikiProject Fictional characters, Gran2, Scorpion0422

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because...The article is obviously outdated and doesn't meet the modern FA criteria. The article went a lot of changes and the prose isn't FA quality already. There are lots of reliable and scholarly sources that need to be updated for the article to be updated + the article uses a lot of low-quality sources and the citations are poorly formatted. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 06:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC The article needs to be updated with 2010-2024 information. Z1720 (talk) 16:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
• Move to FARC – lacks information for the last ~15 years and sourcing needs improving. I don't think the prose is too bad, but the article would need a lot of updating to keep the star. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised in the review section include currency and sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:15, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Considering, @Z1720, Boneless Pizza!, and Sgubaldo: what specifically needs updating? I could fix the citation formatting and low-quality cites. 750h+ 10:41, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Do we need to be specific btw? Most of the section looks like you really needs to start from scratch. Its a lot of work, not just updating though. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 16:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Boneless Pizza!: Naming the specific sections that need updating helps others, as interested editors can take a look and see if they agree or disagree. A one-sentence statement about what needs to be updated, or suggestions on what to add, can also help, especially from subject-matter experts who can identify what is missing. Z1720 (talk) 17:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Boneless Pizza!: per Z1720, if you want me to help i'm gonna need a little more than that (i've never worked on a cartoon character before) 750h+ 23:40, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not expert either at cartoon characters, except at video games. But yeah,at first glance it needs a lot of improvement 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 14:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720, Boneless Pizza!, and Sgubaldo: I'm going to ping @Xeroctic and Pallettown: who seem to be frequent contributors to the project, but otherwise I'm moving towards keep rather than delist (not officially voting now), as aside from the citation formatting, one page needed tag and minor copyedits that could be implemented, the article seems to be in fine shape, aside from the unreliable sources which I can remove and replace (not too much work). I don't see any need to add anything date-related unless he appears in another movie or something extraordinary happens; the article doesn't list many dates (it primarily lists his characteristics and developments) and doesn't need to list every episode he appears in. I'm happy to fix the issues remaining however. 750h+ 13:20, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

+ the reception section needs to be overhauled and expanded; while the character's design and merchandise section needs to be expanded more. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

@Boneless Pizza!: sounds easy. Will do once I finish some other work. 750h+ 13:26, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

@750h+ Wow, it seems like all the tough ones look easy at you. You're also pretty quick at gaining more of those brown stars. Wikipedia should be thankful at your work! 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm trying to save the more iconic ones like this and the Notorious B.I.G. because you'd probably rather something never be an FA rather than it being an FA and seeing it get delisted, and so if it's an iconic person that just makes it all the more depressing, which is why i'm trying to stop it 750h+ 13:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems like you're not only good at Car articles, interesting. Honestly, I'm also on verge of sending Homer Simpson to FAR soon as I'm maintaining the FAs at WP:Fictional characters asap. Though, I only work RE characters. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

@Boneless Pizza!: I kind of disagree with the expanding of the design and merchandise ; they both seem well sized. What do you think needs adding? 750h+ 02:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless there's more in google news. I think design could be possibly be added a tiny bit. But if you can't find anything, its fine. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 13:14, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

There's not much information about the character past 2010. The only two sentences I could find were "In "Simpsorama" (season 26, 2014) Bart states his birthday as February 23" and "In 2022, Paste writers claimed that Bart is the 26th best cartoon character of all time". Sgubaldo (talk) 19:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Since I was pinged, I will mention that I put the corresponding good topic for delisting a while ago (due to the delisting of Maggie and partially due to this FAR being pending).

Having edited this article occasionally, I am mostly making minor rewordings and doing redirect maintenance rather than writing content. There has been a little noteworthy coverage in recent years that could be added, such as the character's non-canon 11th birthday, which could warrant a brief mention in the article (but I am unsure where it would be most suitable). Xeroctic (talk) 14:32, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Some additional comments after a quick review:

• "In "The Blue and the Gray", Bart (along with Lisa and Maggie) finally questions why his hair has no visible border to separate head from hair." is uncited. I'm not sure it is necessary in the article: if it is, the explanation should be included.
• In "Hallmarks" there's an entire paragraph devoted to Bart's nude scene in the Simpson's Movie. Is this really a Hallmark if it happens once, or perhaps its just fancruft and can be removed.
• "Groening, Matt (October 28, 2010)." is listed in the Bibliography but is not used as an inline citation.

I hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 15:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

• In terms of the nude skateboarding scene, it provides as an example of the nudity hallmark (although I think that mooning should be mentioned as his nudity is predominantly that), it has received at least some press coverage, and it is mentioned in two other articles, so I think it could stay. Xeroctic (talk) 16:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

  The quote boxes looked quite messy, I think it should be removed also since modern FAC doesn't recommend hat. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 23:40, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

  I'll also add that if its possible also to remove all the citations at lead so it will looked clean. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 01:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Boneless Pizza!, Z1720, Xeroctic, and Sgubaldo: i think i've fixed the article up. What do we think now? I've reduced the article's size significantly by removing cruft, which i think is a good thing. 750h+ 19:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  • I would be consistent with whether or not the citations use title case for the titles. I would also make sure to italicize game and film titles in the citation titles per MOS:CONFORMTITLE
  • For most of the FAC nominations, they told us that further reading sources shuld be cleanse and all implemented at the article.
  • From the reception section: ref 118 (not italicized) and ref 173 (not linked). Some other BBC news arent italized, while others are.

  🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 19:54, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Boneless Pizza!: all should be addressed (if I forgot to address anything let me know). Any other concerns? 750h+ 07:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  There are some film titles aren't italicized yet, for ex: "The Simpson". About references, ref 174 should be fixed, ref 186 Complex magazine isn't linked yet, ref 193 doesn't have website name, ref 194 doesn't have authors, ref 200 not yet linked + it should be "Screen Rant" with space, and possibly more. Also, after checking some the content you removed, The Simpsons and Philosophy: The D'oh! of Homer chapter "Thus Spake Bart: On Nietzsche and the Virtues of Being Bad" content I think should be implemented. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 08:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Oof, I think you bolded the film titles instead of italicizing it. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 09:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Boneless Pizza!: alll done 🙂. anything else? 750h+ 09:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  I apologize about this and I really appreciate you working on this iconic character. This should be the last "issue" I will point out about comprehensiveness. These sources NFL Bart Way Mentioned and lastly this about the arrested graffiti that can be imolemented under "negative influence" should be implemented imo. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 09:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Under "Cultural influence, reception, and commendations", I don't like what haplen to the first paragraph. It feels like it just lists everything about its rankings and such (repetitive). I would remove TV guide as a source if I were you due to it being low quality, and also add some context on what the author of Paste said instead of listing it only. Again, I apologize and I already told you before that this article is big and tough. But, the article has already improved and it's almost there! 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 09:28, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Boneless Pizza!: if you have any left over concerns please list them in your following comment, please don't just add more extensive concerns when i feel like i've already addressed your remaining comments. responses: the graffiti is too minor of an incident to be implemented. i added the NFL source, while the other two sources are pointless imo. i don't see anything wrong with the first paragraph of the Cultural influence, reception, and commendations, as it follows WP:RECEPTION pretty well. I also don't get where you saw TV Guide as bad source, as, per RSPS, is an excellent source for television related topics. The Paste writer also didn't say anything about Bart; all that was written was "Every principal’s nightmare, this merry prankster’s only two real talents are skateboarding and troublemaking. —Josh Jackson". 750h+ 10:08, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  @750h+ Oops, I treated TV Guide as Daily Star; my bad. I think that's it. Pinging the other 2 @Sgubaldo @Z1720 if they still have concerns. Many thanks for working on this popular article. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 10:24, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Boneless Pizza!: does this count as a keep vote? 750h+ 10:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Yes. However there's still few issues. Ref 233 doesn't redirect me to bibliography after clicking it, ref 57, 62, 73, 80, 81, 85, 128, 236 was bolded instead of being italicized. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 10:35, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  + "In 1996, he was ranked No. 48 on TV Guide's list of the 50 Greatest TV Stars of All Time. In 2002, both Bart and Lisa were jointly ranked No. 11 on TV Guide's list of the Top 50 Greatest Cartoon Characters of All Time. In 2022, Paste writers ranked Bart as the 26th greatest cartoon character of all time" this isn't FA quality and it feels repetitive. You have other ways to do with this? 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 10:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Boneless Pizza!: fixed the bolding concerns and harv error. I fixed the commendations to make it more "FA quality", but i can't change the repetition of "all time". 750h+ 10:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks! Btw, I think the image [7] should be replaced of him mooning? Anyway, I am leaning keep. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 10:55, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  Article seems much improved.

  • Ref. 12 missing a year
  • Ref. 29 seems to be from a very questionable journal.
  • Refs. 42 and 233 have a harv error (i.e. the sfn is broken)
  • Refs. 45 and 162's formatting is broken.
  • Refs. 86, 98, 102, 111, 118 and 163 could be archived.
  • Nitpick, but in the references, sometimes it's "Fox", sometimes it's "20th Century Fox". Make it consistent?
  • Should the character's non-canon 11th birthday that Xeroctic mentioned above be included?

  Sgubaldo (talk) 15:57, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Sgubaldo: all done. 750h+ 18:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

That image, according to the file discussion page, is meant to depict two hallmarks; skateboarding at (at least partial) nudity, as well as depicting a notorious scene from The Simpsons Movie, so I think it could stay as it is. Xeroctic (talk) 12:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, should the discussion about that image be listed at WP:FfD, since you removed it and may be considering replacing it? Xeroctic (talk) 12:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with Xeroctic, most of the paragraph discusses the skateboarding scene. 750h+ 12:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Restored. Anyway, the article looks good now. 🍕BP!🍕 (🔔) 12:34, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Emmy Noether

Notified: Scartol, WillowW, WikiProject Germany, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Mathematics, WikiProject Women's History, WikiProject Women scientists, WikiProject Physics, WikiProject Women writers, WikiProject Socialism, WikiProject Women in Green, 2023-08-20

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because there are numerous citation concerns, including an orange banner at the top of the "Contributions to mathematics and physics" section and an uncited "List of doctoral students" section. There's also a lot of great prose describing math concepts, but much of this does not describe how Noether contributed to these concepts and I don't think much of it is necessary for the reader to understand how Noether contributed to the ideas. I think this would need a math specialist to help improve the article. Z1720 (talk) 20:26, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I added a source for the entire doctoral students section. Also, far be it from me to ignite another "anti-intellectualism" GAR/FAR firestorm, but the line "I don't think much of it is necessary for the reader to understand" rubs me the wrong way. Yes, to understand Noether's accomplishments it is necessary to understand the mathematics and physics concepts she worked with. That said, I agree that the contributions section could be better sourced; we used to allow unsourced background material that we would expect any student of the subject to have some familiarity with, but those days are gone. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

To expand upon my comment about what the reader needs to understand: after reading the article when making the nomination, I found that some sections did a great job explaining the math, but struggled to connect it to Noether. For example, in the "Background on abstract algebra" section, Noether is not mentioned until paragraph 4. I would expect Noether's contributions to be more prominent and mentioned first, then the mathematical principles explained by connecting it to Noether's contributions. I think the "First epoch (1908–1919): Physics", all the second epoch, and all the third epoch sections do this well; I think the other sections need to feature Noether more prominently, which might involve removing some information, and will probably involve moving around some information. Z1720 (talk) 22:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

We get an issue with accessibility or focus whichever way you slice it: either there's maths explanations with nothing to do with Noether, or the descriptions are only accessible to those familiar with elementary algebra. If you don't understand what a group is, it's impossible to understand Noether's contributions to maths. I don't think you can reverse the order of it.

The subject matter is necessarily extremely technical. What might not be obvious to layreaders is that (e.g.) the group representations paragraph is child's play compared to the statement of Noether's problem. This is the dumbing down as far as possible without distorting the facts. I can wax lyrical about group representations but Galois theory makes my head hurt. By focusing on big picture ("it's all about symmetries", "like prime numbers") and toy examples (the discriminant, polynomial splitting fields), but also giving the full statements of what Noether studied, I think the article does quite well. I feel it's best left as is unless someone is jumping to make it a big project of theirs.

My comments at Talk:Emmy Noether#WP:URFA/2020 were to indicate that I do not think there are major citation issues—it's more a style issue, as convention has changed since 2008. I do feel this article would benefit from a mathematician giving it a full copyedit, with an algebra textbook to hand for some inline citations. — Bilorv (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Bilorv said more or less what I was going to. The ordering in the "Background on abstract algebra" passage makes sense because, well, it's background. It has to cover concepts that were introduced a half-century before Noether was even born. That's just how math works: it's a cumulative subject, and we can't always take a thin slice out of it and hope for a meaningful result.

Much of the uncited material can probably be found in any textbook on the area (e.g., the definition of a ring or a group representation is standard stuff). I did what I could with the books that I had near my desk, but I am too tired to do more and need a very very long break. XOR'easter (talk) 00:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe the "List of doctoral students" section is necessary in the first place. "All" (i.e. those with wikilinks) the notable students are in the infobox and a table list of their dissertations and defenses seem somewhat superfluous. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the section. Feel free to revert or add it back if you disagree. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I also realised there were two separate "Recognition" sections, which I merged together. Sgubaldo (talk) 02:24, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this removal. Everything in the infobox should be a summary of main-article text. The infobox should not supplant the article. See MOS:INFOBOX: When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. If you include the list of doctoral students only in the infobox, then readers looking for a non-superficial summary will not find that information. Or, to put it another way, if it is so important to the article that it needs to be summarized in the infobox, so that even low-attention-span readers skimming the infobox find it, then it is also so important to the article that it should be covered properly in the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:29, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I know the infobox shouldn't supplant the article. My reasoning was that the infobox could have the names of all her notable doctoral students while the article went into more detail (which it does, in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section; I recognise it's in need of some more sentences about her doctoral students specifically). I still don't believe a list of their dissertations and defense dates is of benefit to the average reader, but I'll leave it. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not wedded to the specific table format. A more prose-like format such as a bulleted list might be better. The titles of the dissertations are less important than their overall topics and what happened afterward to each student. And the placement of the list of students in the article would make more sense in the section you mention than as an appendix at the end. But if one is looking for a complete list of her students (or, what the infobox lists, her bluelinked students) one won't find anything resembling that in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section in its current state. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. After the citation issues are resolved, perhaps the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section can be expanded to include more information about her doctoral students, but I don't think it should make or break the article's Featured status. Sgubaldo (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with David Eppstein that the doctoral students should be mentioned in the body. An exhaustive list makes sense to me, with dissertation topic (e.g. p-adic numbers) and anything the student was later known for. It would also make sense to incorporate them into the chronological account of her life, but the issue might be that she had so many notable students that it could overwhelm the rest of the section's focus. — Bilorv (talk) 21:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with ensuring they are mentioned in the body. My reasoning was that dissertation titles and defense dates are not that important. Sgubaldo (talk) 13:53, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the dates are worth keeping. The titles, if we have topics instead, can go. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:27, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

For now, I've added an initial mention of the two Erlangen students in the "Graduate students and influential lectures" section. They don't seem too notable though and could probably be moved up to the "Teaching period" one instead. Unfortunately, I don't think I'd be of much help with the citation issues. Sgubaldo (talk) 01:27, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Comment Work seems to have slowed down, but several sourcing problems remain. Are editors still working on this? Z1720 (talk) 14:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I won't have the time to properly sit down and crack on with this until towards the end of March. After that, I'm happy to continue working on the doctoral students part. As I said above, the citation issues in the "Contributions to mathematics and physics" section may require someone with more expertise than me in the area. Besides, beyond those two issues, I think the article is worthy of FA status, and I made some structural changes that made the article (in my view) neater. Sgubaldo (talk) 15:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Improvements have definately been made (thanks everyone!) but I still have citation concerns, as there are some paragraphs which do not have any inline citations. Would it be helpful if I tagged the areas that I felt needed citations for others to address? Z1720 (talk) 16:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

That would be helpful. Sgubaldo (talk) 16:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Note a seems to use inline references, which should be converted to inline citations (footnotes). Z1720 (talk) 17:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Working my way through as many of those as I can. Will update when I stall out. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh, now we're forbidden even footnotes from having parenthetical citations within them? So we need a separate footnote inside the footnote to be the reference? No. Just no. This blind fanaticism serves no encyclopedic purpose. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:47, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I misindented my comment. I've been working through the cn tags. Haven't looked into the note. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

My reply was aimed more at Z1720 than you. Going through cn tags and finding citations for them is a very useful thing to be doing. Putting nested footnotes into footnotes because of an aversion to mixing footnote text with footnote citations, less useful. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

• Firefangledfeathers? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

The inline reference issue in Note a has been fixed. Two cn tags remain, and the section on her second epoch might need some citations too. The rest of the article seems good. Beyond that, I had the idea of making her doctoral students part of the prose rather than an explicit table at the bottom of the article, but that shouldn't make or break FA-status. Sgubaldo (talk) 20:51, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Sgubaldo. Haven't given up on the last few cns. Just been busy. I'll either fix them soon or throw in the towel. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I found something in Page 99 of Emmy Noether: The Mother of Modern Algebra by Margaret B. W. Tent for the phrase 'Her family paid for her room and board and supported her academic work' as mentioned on the talk page, but i'm a little skeptical of using it as a source since it's mostly aimed at teenagers and the author takes some literary creativity and makes up conversations between historical figures. No luck on the other cn tag yet. Sgubaldo (talk) 12:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I removed the "Her family paid" line. XOR'easter (talk) 21:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't been paying attention to the bigger picture, but I resolved what I think was the last remaining cleanup tag a couple days ago. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:11, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  I've prosified the doctoral students and added some references in certain places. If a reviewer could go through and check again what else they feel needs a citation, that would help. Other than that, I think this should be done. Sgubaldo (talk) 13:28, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

• Move to FARC My concerns about this article are still present: there is off-topic information that does not relate to Noether's life and lots of uncited information. Z1720 (talk) 16:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  If you think that is true then why have you done nothing to make your concerns more specific, for instance by responding last May when the comments immediately above this talked about resolving all remaining cleanup tags? We cannot clean up what we cannot see, and we cannot read your mind if you will not tell it to us. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  Frankly, this baffles me. Nothing in the article as it stands is "off-topic" to my eye. Rather, it's all either straight biography or attempts to explain the mathematical topics on which Noether worked. In other words, cutting anything would risk having an article that fails to work as a self-contained unit. XOR'easter (talk) 21:53, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

• In my opinion, a lot of the information in "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" can be summarized better: it is a lot of detail that would probably be better explained in the articles of those concepts. "Algebraic invariant theory", "Galois theory", also have a lot of text explaining the mathematical concept when this could be better explained in the concept's article. This article is over 9,000 words, which WP:TOOBIG recommends be split and reduced: I think there are opportunities in this article to move information to other places. This article doesn't need to be a self-contained unit, because it is part of a wider Wikipedia project and users can go to other articles to get more detailed information. Z1720 (talk) 22:22, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  So, to put it bluntly, you want to gut the intellectual contributions from a biography of someone known for her intellectual contributions, in favor of a greater emphasis on routine biographical information? Perhaps you can explain how this fits with your understanding of WP:FACR #1b, in which we are asked to ensure that the article "neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context"? The sections you object to are exactly placing the subject in context. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:55, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

  An article about Emmy Noether needs to explain why a whole host of major concepts are called Noether's or Noetherian. That's far more important than the rules of thumb in WP:TOOBIG, which are made up anyway. XOR'easter (talk) 00:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the article does not need as much information as it currently has on explaining the mathematical concepts. It would be better to summarise the theories in fewer words and give more detail of their explanation in the theory's article. The long explanations of these theories are against WP:FA? #4, and I do not see how these very long explanations of concepts are major facts of Noether's work. Instead, they are going into too much detail of the background before Noether's contributions or giving too much detail in their explanation. I look forward to new editors reviewing the article and giving their thoughts so that a consensus can form. Z1720 (talk) 01:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  Even this biography of Noether aimed at children aged 6-8 claims to include "explanations of complex mathematical concepts". Are you suggesting that Wikipedia should fall below even the mathematical sophistication of a children's book? Because that's what I am getting from your comments here. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  The explanations currently in the article are already very short compared to what an article devoted to a Noetherian math topic would be. For example, our page on Noether's theorem is, by itself, over half the length of the entire Emmy Noether page, and much longer than the corresponding subsection here, Emmy Noether#Physics, which is all of three paragraphs. We're not teaching a course in ring theory or advanced classical mechanics here; we're doing pretty much the bare minimum to explain what Noether herself did and why it matters.

  I'd be amenable to judicious trimming, but that would require a sentence-by-sentence reading to decide what phrases might be diversions or superfluous details, not a vaguewave at the FA criteria. XOR'easter (talk) 18:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Moving to get more input regarding this article's status WRT the FA criteria. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:12, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delist My thoughts in the FARC remain unchanged, and the issues I brought up haven't been resolved yet. If there are any changes, please ping me and I can take another look. Z1720 (talk) 23:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Striking this, progress is continuing. Z1720 (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• • Keep. (Personal attack removed) The article is well written, well sourced, and significantly improved since the FA began. It covers Noether's life and work in appropriate detail.

  —David Eppstein (talk) 01:39, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein. This does not mean I must support the argument of delisting a status. As a not-so-thoroughly-expert-at-FA-reviewer and not a fan of biographical articles, I found they remain unsourced in the following:

• These courses often preceded major publications on the same subjects.[citation needed]
• Some other facts remained unsourced in the section "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)": Lasker–Noether theorem and her other works in further explanation.
• "An algebra consists of a choice..."
• First epoch and second epoch

Overall, the article looks good, and its status can be preserved. But this question for me: do all of these need citations for, keeping in mind, supporting the facts? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 03:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Whether or not these need citations (I haven't taken the time to formulate an opinion) that is already more helpful than Z1720's claim of "lots of uncited information" but refusal to respond to requests like "If a reviewer could go through and check again what else they feel needs a citation" from last May. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Not sure how can I comprehend your words here: it is better to give a list of which parts that is unsourced, unlike the user who says to fix up everything without giving more details of the problem? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 04:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That was what I meant, yes. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein So, I think I shall leave this to you. Hope you don't mind. I wish I can help but biographical articles are not my thing. I'll see if I can find some spots. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 11:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein and Dedhert.Jr: I have added cn tags where I think citations are needed. There are some sentences where the citation is in the middle, instead of at the end of the sentence: I did not check to see if these citations verify the information after the citation. Z1720 (talk) 12:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Z1720 If you found things that is not in the criteria, please make a list of bullets. Users may understand and start to fix up, just like how normally users reviews GAN. You don't mind, eh? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 12:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's a list of my concerns:

• There are uncited statements, which I have noted with citation needed tags.
• There is a lot of prose that describes the background information of mathematical concepts which is not directly related to Noether. While some background information is necessary, I think the "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" goes into too much detail on mathematical concepts that are better explained on the concept's own article page.
• The "First epoch (1908–1919)", "Second epoch (1920–1926)" and "Third epoch (1927–1935)" sections spend a lot of time explaining the mathematical concepts, but do not explain Noether's contribution or how she discovered them. These sections need to more closely link Noether to the work.
• Per WP:ONEDOWN, many of the math concepts explained in this article are too technical for the average, interested reader to understand. This article is a biography of this person and a reader should know how her discoveries affected mathematics. The large amount of mathematical information and high-concept language makes this difficult, and I think this information would be better on the mathematic concepts pages, rather than here.
• The following sources are listed in "Sources" but are not used in the article: Blue, Meredith (2001), Huff, Kendra (2011), Kimberling, Clark (March 1982), Schmadel, Lutz D. (2003), Lemmermeyer, Franz; Roquette, Peter, eds. (2006), Noether, Emmy; Brewer, James W; Smith, Martha K (1981), Schmadel, Lutz D. (2003).

Hope this helps. Z1720 (talk) 12:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Keep conditional on the explicit {{citation needed}} tags being resolved. I do not see the case for shuffling actual mathematical content in a mathematician's biography off to other articles. Nor do I see a real conflict with the WP:ONEDOWN rule of thumb. The most technical parts of the article are about mathematics one sees in graduate school, and they're pitched to an upper-level undergraduate audience. XOR'easter (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Speaking of the mathematical fields alongside its technical, apparently algebra is somewhat intended to be technical in this case, no matter how one would like to try to gloss it into the least technical as possible. I think other fields such as mathematical analysis or calculus, or topology, are similar cases. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

• On hold, awaiting content's improvements before picking either delist or keep. I prefer not to delist the status because some users would like to keep it, nor to keep it because the content is still debatable and especially in shambles quality of unsourced facts. Some responses from me to Z1720:
  • Replying "There is a lot of prose that describes the background information of mathematical concepts which is not directly related to Noether": I cannot find anything that exactly means here. If I look at it again, it is actually the opposite. Can you tell us more specifically?
  • Replying "Three epochs": Ditto, but waiting for the sources.
  • Replying WP:ONEDOWN: Already explained in XOR'easter's reasons to keep.
• Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  I do not understand the "more closely link Noether to the work" comment at all. The "epochs" sections are full of her contributions. In 1918, Noether published ... Noether provided the resolution of this paradox ... Noether's theorem has become a fundamental tool ... In this epoch, Noether became famous for ... In 1923–1924, Noether applied her ideal theory to ... And so forth. XOR'easter (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  Then I guess this leaves to the sourcing problems, after which I might be vote for the status. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 04:00, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources either added or removed/moved to Further Reading where not needed. Sgubaldo (talk) 01:01, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Responding to some of the above:

• Re: WP:ONELEVELDOWN: if this was a math article, I would be more receptive to the argument that information is geared towards graduate students. However, this is a biography article, and as such I think all of the prose should be more accessible to a wider audience. I think the goal for the language in this article should be to be readable to an interested high school student with an exceptional understanding of basic algebra concepts: after reading the article, the high school student should be able to explain in a basic way what her contributions to mathematics are/were.
• Re: Background information and too much detail: These are the places with the math concepts that I am concerned about:

• in "Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics)" is two paragraphs of background information before Noether is mentioned.
• In "Algebraic invariant theory" Noether is mentioned in the first paragraph, then there is four paragraphs of information without mentioning Noether.
• In "Galois theory" Noether is first mentioned in the fourth paragraph.

I think these sections should link Noether to her discoveries sooner and more explicitly. If this prose is background information, I would like that information intertwined with Noether's discoveries more effectively or have information summarised with one paragraph per section of background information being the goal.

There's a couple reasons for this:

• The article is over 9,000 words, which WP:TOOBIG recommends considering spinning out the information. I think the background information is the best place to consider this.
• I think too much background information is off-topic for this specific article and the information better served in the appropriate mathematics article.
• Summarising/moving background information might make the article more accessible to people with less subject matter knowledge, as they will not feel like they have to have a solid foundation of high-level mathematics to have a basic understanding of her contributions. If I wanted high-school students to report on her contributions, they would struggle to simply describe why she is important.

Sorry for the long response and the wall of text (ironic considering I want to trim information). I hope it is helpful and happy to summarise below if editors want. I think those were the only two concerns where my comments were requested. If I missed something, please ping me. I struck out my "delist" designation because there is progress being made on the article. Z1720 (talk) 16:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• User:Nikkimaria is refusing to let me include content in this review responding to other reviewers' comments in this review, and has repeatedly redacted my own comments into an accusation of making personal attacks directed against me. Because of this non-neutral behavior, I would like to request that any future coordination of this FAR be performed by someone other than Nikkimaria. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• @FAR coordinators: to ping the other FAR coordinators. Z1720 (talk) 18:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• I am asking you to keep your commentary focused on the article, rather than on other reviewers. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Despite your repeated allegations, the comments you removed were focused explaining why I think certain other comments in this review should be discounted as unreasonable, rather than focused on the person who made those comments. Is that not allowed? Are we required to separately contribute to this FAR, ignoring all other contributors? What kind of process it that? —David Eppstein (talk) 19:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• You are welcome to respond to comments made by others, as long as you do so without personalizing. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding this: if this was a math article, I would be more receptive to the argument that information is geared towards graduate students. However, this is a biography article, and as such I think all of the prose should be more accessible to a wider audience. It's a biography of a mathematician, and on top of that, a mathematician whose pioneering contributions were at a rather abstract level. I don't see how the article being a biography can override the fact that it is an article about mathematics. This seems like a matter of personal taste, where mine differs from yours, rather than a factor that should play into FA status one way or the other. Likewise: ...or have information summarised with one paragraph per section of background information being the goal. This strikes me as a rather arbitrary line (and I doubt that it could be feasible without reducing the mathematics to empty platitudes).

Summarising/moving background information might make the article more accessible to people with less subject matter knowledge I suspect that the opposite is true. The more times a reader has to click on unfamiliar words and open new browser tabs, the more likely they are to give up. Nor is it the case that pointing the reader to a big page about a whole area of mathematics — Galois theory, let's say — is the right way to inform them about the parts of the subject most relevant for understanding the contributions of Emmy Noether. XOR'easter (talk) 19:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if we could compare two other FAs Leonhard Euler and Georg Cantor, the topic as in geometry, analysis, graph theory, number theory, and more, seem less technical. Unlike Emmy Noether which focus on abstract algebra topics, the description is difficult to understand naturally because of how abstract the topic is. I think that is also the reason why its section Background on abstract algebra and begriffliche Mathematik (conceptual mathematics) has so much background of basic explanations about abstract algebra topics???

Since this article also focuses on mathematics other than biography, is it possible to call FAR coordinators who are in favor of mathematics? Dedhert.Jr (talk) 00:52, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dedhert.Jr: I'm not sure what "FAR coordinators who are in favor of mathematics" means. I am not a coordinator, but my understanding of their role is that when this discussion reaches a conclusion, a coordinator will evaluate the discussion here and the article's adherence to the featured article criteria and decide whether the article should remain a featured article or be delisted. The criteria for mathematics articles are the same as other articles, and I don't think coordinators have a preference for the type of articles that are featured. Pinging @FAR coordinators: to give a better explanation than me. Z1720 (talk) 13:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure. I was trying to say that, since some of the users have criticized your comments about TOOBIG and ONELEVELDOWN problems allegedly, it might ping coordinators who are experts in mathematics as well, ensuring find a solution to the drama of mathematical topics discussed here. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 13:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

There aren't coordinators assigned to specific subjects. Typically posts at WikiProjects would be a tool to bring in expert reviewers - I see that has already been done in this case. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps it is worth pointing out that the same issues about TOOBIG and ONELEVELDOWN arose already in Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/John von Neumann/1 (a similar case of someone known for research contributions that are both extensive and highly technical). There, Nikkimaria had a (very minor but non-neutral) role on the side of byte-counting and of pushing to cut down much of the technical content. Since the same issues are a central concern in this FAR, I would have greater confidence in the neutrality of some other coordinator. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking about the same thing. Considering that rewrite her contribution as summary and then create Contributions of Emmy Noether just the similar how did one proposed in John von Neumann, recall that WP:TECHNICAL have a quote of saying that a good article will always grab of interest so the audience may interest to read it. And for the preassumption, I think it is a 50-50. Dedhert.Jr (talk) 02:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

There are some math topics where we can at least explain the question at a high school/pop science level and then say that the person is famous because they answered it. Andrew Wiles? Oh, he proved Fermat's Last Theorem. Kenneth Appel and Wolfgang Haken? They proved the four color theorem. Emmy Noether? OK, better sit down, this is going to take a minute.... The least abstract thing to explain is probably her contribution to physics, but even that requires understanding what a conservation law is and what we mean by a "symmetry", not of a shape, but of a physical law. XOR'easter (talk) 17:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Minor Update: citation needed tags are down to 11. Sgubaldo (talk) 17:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Down to 9. Sgubaldo (talk) 19:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

My guess is that it won't take 9 different references to fill in the 9 requests. An introduction to algebraic invariant theory might satisfy 3 of them, and a work on chain conditions might take care of another 3. Arguably, the sentence Much of Noether's work lay in determining... is a summary that doesn't need a blue clicky linky number of its own, and An algebra consists of... could be sourced to any book that defines an algebra over a ring. That leaves finding a secondary source describing what she wrote in Abstrakter Aufbau der Idealtheorie in algebraischen Zahl- und Funktionenkörpern. XOR'easter (talk) 20:10, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Now down to 5. XOR'easter (talk) 04:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Concerto delle donne

Notified: Mass Message Send notifications, talk page notice 2023-02-10

Review section

This 2006 FA was nominated by an editor who has made one Wikipedia edit since 2013, and has not edited the article since 2007. The article has no main watchers and has not been maintained to standard. The article was notified last year for original research, over-reliance on single sources, MOS issues, and citations needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Did some urgent fixes and will park these lists of sources to use here. It seems like Newcomb 1980 is available at a local library. That's for sourcing & completeness; someone more adept that me will need to handle MOS problems. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Did some expansion. Newcomb 1980 seems to be the most comprehensive source on the group, so I can see why he would be the main source. Stras 2018 seems to be a bit more generally discussing the music scene in Ferrara, rather than a detailed analysis of the concerto delle donne. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus, starting to try to catch up ... where does this stand; do you think the article meets comprehensiveness? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it passes on comprehensiveness, keeping in mind however that I only considered sources that show up on Google Scholar. There are some bits in the page source that need further thought. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

The additions look great, thanks Jo-Jo! I recall working on this for a bit but stepping back due to time commitments. Hopefully I can look throughout it more next week... am thinking that the biggest issues right now are source References formatting and the rather poor lead. Aza24 (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Aza24 are you going to be able to look at this, or should we be moving to FARC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:06, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes I think so. Give me till the end of the weekend—if I don't get to it by then we can move it FARC. Aza24 (talk) 06:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Looking at this today – Aza24 (talk) 22:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Looked at it a bit today. I still have more cleanup to do, but at the moment these are the issues I see remaining (this list is for my own personal use as well)

• Needs many more reference to Stras
• A few missing citations still (one is marked), about cross dressing, the ballet etc.
• Probably need a collage pic of the Duke and Duchess in the beginning of history
• Emphasis on Luzzaschi and near absence of anyone else may be undue, I'm not sure
• Note b needs to be expanded to include the similar contradiction from Pendle and Grove
• Music section is a bit of a mess; badly organized and laid out. The composers
• Really needs an image of sheet music (which I can engrave and then upload)
• I don't think Yarris is a "high quality source"
• Similar doubts about Kuhn
  • Looked at this further and believe its high quality enough – Aza24 (talk) 14:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
• There is a great long-ish quote from Vincenzo Giustiniani (in Burkholder) which could go in quote box for the Influence section
• Lead needs a complete rewrite, including the names of important composers and singers
• Minor clean up matters regarding linking first mentions (& overlinking) and giving translations to Italian terms
• Overall, I think there are two main issues:
  • Rewrite of the music section
  • I think the whole article will have to be recontextualized a little. Too much emphasis on the Ferrera court and practically none in comparison for the equivalent ensembles at Mantua, Florence, etc. Britannica's article is (surprisingly) a good model in this regard Aza24 (talk) 06:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  It seems like the Wikipedia Library is down, so I can't do anything about Stras or the other concerti or the citation tag at the moment. I looked for an image of Duke and Duchess, but apparently there are only separate images. It seems like Monteverdi is more commonly mentioned than Luzzaschi in sources, though. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:25, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  No worries! I have a PDF of Stras (which I can send?—email me if so) that I'm planning to add from. For the Duke/Duchess I meant a collage (double) image, which I've just added. – Aza24 (talk) 21:32, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  Can't do anything before tomorrow, sorry. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

  Began to work a bit with Stras. I am going to warn folks that since musicology is very far from my areas of knowledge/interest, I am perhaps not the person to ask for a proper due weight evaluation. I got as far as p.167 in Stras. I've asked at WP:RX for one source for the crossdressing thing. Does anyone have access to this book? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

  I just found a PDF. If you email me I can send it to you. Aza24 (talk) 20:12, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

  Are you up for rewriting the music section? This is a topic on which I understand essentially nothing. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 17:33, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  Yes I think so. Was looking into what that would consist of earlier – Aza24 (talk) 20:38, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

  Aza24 where does this stand? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:50, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

  Should hopefully be able to work on it this week. Back from vacation now. I think its definitely trending towards a positive direction Aza24 (talk) 05:35, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

  Aza24? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:55, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  Uhhhhhhh, sorry I am getting v distracted. I assure you all this is still on my radar Aza24 (talk) 05:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

• @Aza24: ? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:01, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

  At work in my sandbox – Aza24 (talk) 04:03, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:22, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

  Need the music and lead sections rewritten, seems like. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:19, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

  Aza24 could we get this one wrapped up soon? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:34, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  Going by the notice on their userpage, they won't be able to for a month. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:45, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

• Does anyone know about anyone else who is familiar with these music topics? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 18:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Not anyone well versed with FAR; Aza24 perhaps we should consider moving on here ? It's six months now ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  @SchroCat and Ssilvers: might you suggest an editor who can take this on? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:24, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry, no idea. Are there any musicians on WP who have researched different madrigal styles? You could ask at the classical music project. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:38, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  They were notified; only Aza24 came forward. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:43, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Tim riley would be a possible, except he's on something of a break at the moment. I'll drop him a line to see if he has either the knowledge or inclination. - SchroCat (talk) 20:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you so much; there is User:Aza24/sandbox to contemplate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

• Unfortunately not one for Tim. As he puts it, "music started with Bach, and anything earlier doesn't figure". - SchroCat (talk) 20:33, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

  I guess in that case we should wait until Aza24 is more active. If nothing's happening still, we should proceed to FARC. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:40, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

• @Aza24: Are you still intending to work on this? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:12, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

  Will have another go in the coming days – Aza24 (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

  Looks like a rewrite is underway at User:Aza24/sandbox. @FAR coordinators: I wonder if we can collapse the aforementioned bullet points about who is available, for better readability. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:20, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

• Suggest moving to talk. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:01, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

  Asked Aza about the sandbox. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:22, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aza24:? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

FARC section

Stalled. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:15, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I've set aside some time next weekend to work on it. Aza24 (talk) 23:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Almost done with refiguring the music section in my sandbox Aza24 (talk) 18:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

  At work again this weekend Aza24 (talk) 16:54, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

  Music section has been rewritten/reorganized; new paragraph added to the new "background section". At this point, the Roster and duties, as well as influence sections just need some touch ups—though more so on the former section. Aza24 (talk) 19:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

  I've given a go at rewriting the lead. Aza24 (talk) 19:53, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

  @Nikkimaria @Jo-Jo Eumerus, I think I've given all I can to this article. The topic interest me, but I find too distracted by other WP commitments.

  I think the article is fine where it stands now, but am happy to hear the input of any others. Aza24 (talk) 06:09, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  Is Yarris still a problem? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:47, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I think Yarris is okay. Most of her citations are used in addition to others, so if other reviewers disagree, they could be fairly painlessly removed. Aza24 (talk) 18:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see any obvious issue, but this is a topic I am not very familiar with. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:33, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

• I decided to reach out to Laurie Stras, an expert on this topic, and she has kindly agreed to give feedback via email about possible improvements/errors. She said she's on vacation at the moment, but has promised to look soon. Looks like this should all be wrapping up soon. Aza24 (talk) 07:14, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

  She pointed out some factual mistakes, which I've now fixed. She also said that although the article is heavily influenced by somewhat older scholarship (Newcomb 1980), it is generally suitable for a general encyclopedia. She expressed some hesitancy over citing Yarris, which I previously found questionable. I'm thinking all of the Yarris refs need to be replaced. Aza24 (talk) 06:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  It seems like many of the claims sourced to Yarris can be found in other sources, going by Google Scholar. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:47, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:45, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah... I've made a targeted list of goals to wrap this up. Will give it one more shot. Aza24 (talk) 18:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

  @Aza24: have you finished what you wanted to do with this yet. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry no, not yet Aza24 (talk) 19:21, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Update: I've removed all of the Yarris refs, since it's not a high quality source—it looks like they were mostly in addition to other sources, so the content did not change much. I've ordered hardcopies of both Stras and Newcomb (the two major surveys) from the library; I have digital copies but I think to finish this properly I'm going to need the physical versions. – Aza24 (talk) 03:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

  WP:RX might help with some of the physical versions. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  At this point, I think I'll have to bow out. The article has definitely improved, but I'm not sure how to judge it. I'll leave it for others to evaluate, I think I've done all I have the motivation for with this. Aza24 (talk) 08:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

  @Aza24: do you think there are still outstanding issues? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:22, 15 December 2024 (UTC)