Yolo4A4Lo

User Talk Contrib's Subpages

I will generally respond here to comments that are posted here, rather than replying via your talk page (or the article's talk page, if you are writing to me here about an article), so you may want to watch this page until you are responded to. Response may be given slowly during weekends. Thank you for understanding. It is approximately 5:17 AM where this user lives (Indonesia). []

Re-structuring of the page

@Yolo4A4Lo: I had a talk with some fellow editors and fans and we came to the conclusion that this page in its current form is a bit redundant and doesn't really add any crucial and interesting new information that cannot be found on the bios page. So readers don't have many reasons to visit this page (even if it grows during this season). Our suggestion is:

1. Focus only at the Olympics in this article ("Yuzuru Hanyu at the Olympics" or Olympic Games) and move the other competitions back to the bios.

That page was made based on request by editors to reduce the size of the main. Despite the prose count is still acceptable, that page is big enough to load and it will become even bigger. So I don't think put the rest competition back there is a good choice.

1. Use the following structure:
   • 2014 Sochi Olympics
     • Road to Sochi (short introduction with key events of the cycle, qualification and evt. main rivals, but this is a spicy topic)

This is basically the competitions leading to Olympics which has been covered. Feel free to add more details to that. For rivals, you can mention other skaters who were on the podium with him leading up to Olympics. Otherwise, I don't think it warrant a dedicated paragraph given there's no clear rivalries in figure skating, unlike in sports like tennis or racing. And Wikipedia should be neutral.

1. • • Team event
     • Individual event
     • Exhibition gala, press conferences and interviews
     • Aftermath (Olympics-related awards and ceremonies, parade etc.)
   • 2018 Pyeongchang Olympics (similar structure like above)
   • Extra section for CiONTU as mid-career flashback and bridge between two Olympic cycles (either placed here or at the end of the prose part)
   • 2021 Tokyo Olympics (if he plays a significant role there like torchbearer or something)
   • 2022 Beijing Olympics (similar structure like the other two Winter Games)
2. Add more detailed infos about the background of his program choices, costume designs and the technical content (there are many reliable and very good sources available)

If there are news articles that prove those bits of information are notable enough to be included (self-opinion and primary source are not included) then you can include it. But remember, as per WP:NOTEVERYTHING, "A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." And I meant to say this earlier, but I'm a big fan of Yuzuru. I made an account here for him. I actually know you on Twitter. But the thing is Wikipedia doesn't exist to satisfy fans. It's merely a summary on someone and something which consist of things may interest general people and hopefully will make them to be interested enough to look for more details themselves. So, that's why not every interview etc need to be included here. It should be put on fan forum or wikia.

1. Add a table with his programs including a picture of the costume and a video link to each performance on the Olympic Channel.

There are probably even more interesting bits to mention, but this body would already make the page worth a visit. Henni147 (talk) 19:04, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

@Henni147: My suggestion: Try to draft everything, then we can decide what to put and what not. But I'm very reluctant to add things to the main article since what's there has been through detailed check by editors. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 11:47, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

• First of all, I want to thank you for all your help and patience with me during the last days and weeks. You had to explain so many things and correct so many edits... I'm extremely grateful for your guidance and hard work, and I hope I wasn't too much of a burden to you. I want to be very careful with any form of promotion of the articles here from now on, especially on Twitter. However, I made the experience that the fandom is very supportive and a big help, when it comes to translations and sourcing, so I may post occasional requests there.
• Regarding the Olympics page: If the seasons sections cannot be moved back to the bios, then I will respect that of course. It's not intended to blow up this page with information, but rather shift the focus more to the Olympics as a recurrent theme of the article, and point out what role the results at the other competitions of the season played in the build up to the Olympics (properly sourced of course).
• Hanyu's Olympic programs are special in many ways and I think, this page is a good place to mention these aspects:

Background infos to Olympic programs

• Romeo and Juliet: David Wilson has told in a recent interview that Hanyu had written a letter to him with the request to choreograph a winning program for the Sochi Olympics to Nino Rota's Romeo and Juliet piece, and how Wilson was conflicted, because he had choreographed programs to this piece for various skaters already (Sasha Cohen's 2006 Torino FS amongst others).
• Ballade No. 1: Hanyu had the opportunity to perform a part of Ballade No. 1 live with Japanese pianist Kotaro Fukuma at FaOI 2015 and meet pianist Kanon Matsuda to exchange their different approaches to the piece as a skater and musician. In 17/18 he reused Ballade No. 1 for the third time in four seasons, which is unusual in figure skating, and he started off the Olympic season with a clean 4Lo–SP at FaOI 2017, a feat that he couldn't achieve in eight competition attempts.
• Seimei: The making of Seimei was special enough to actually make a whole documentary about it. That includes Hanyu's lessons with Mansai Nomura (this info is briefly mentioned on the main page, but the source-link is dead), Hanyu's visit of the Seimei shrine in Kyoto for inspiration and also the recording of his own breath for the opening of the program (I think, these infos are particularly interesting and noteworthy for readers of this page).
• Parisienne Walkways: A life-size wax sculpture of Hanyu was exhibited at Madame Tussauds Tokyo until April 5, 2021, showing the ending pose of his Parisienne Walkways program, to which Hanyu had provided accessoirs like his own skates, bracelets and necklaces. (I have all sources for this one from different online news articles, but if you say that it's not notable enough or doesn't fit the page, we can skip it. I think, it underlines nicely, why the ending pose of PW is so special)

• I would also like to add more details to the technical development of Hanyu's arsenal and the men's field as a whole. I remember NBC's table at the 2018 Olympics, showing the increase of attempted quads from Vancouver to Pyeongchang. It would be good to point out how his repertoire has continuously grown, starting with the 4T and 4S in the Sochi cycle, the 4Lo and 4Lz in the Pyeongchang cycle (even if he was forced to take them out due to the injury), and the debut of new combos/sequences in the current cycle plus going for the 4A challenge (which will probably headline most parts of this Olympic season).
• Update: Here is a draft for the new structure of the season sections (I used 17/18 as example, as there is more content available at the moment). The selected pictures in the performance gallery are only samples to get a first visual impression. I can ask for more fitting pictures from the Olympics anytime, if needed. Henni147 (talk) 16:48, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

@Henni147: Sorry for the long waiting, there's an outbreak at my office, so I have been covering for my I'll colleagues for the deadlines ad can't update Wikipedia except routine updates. My suggestions for the draft:

1. To make the competition names uniformed with the main article, change them to the 2014 Winter Olympics and the 2018 Winter Olympics
2. Subsection change to "2017—18 season and 2018 Winter Olympics" or "2017—18 Winter Olympics season".
3. I'm thinking about a "Going into the season" subsection before Programs to summarize what he has done between the two Olympics; especially his world record performances and the two World silvers and one gold. It does sound redundant, but it will help reader to understand the context of his position during the season without having to read the main article. We can put a Main Article link under the subsection.
4. "Two seasons ago". Since now it's separated from the main article, I think it's better just to say " in 2014—16".
5. "Upgraded layout". I think it's better to mention what has been upgraded for the two programs if we have good sources on them.
6. "Due to pain in his right knee". I forget if there's a history behind this pain. If Hanyu explained it, we could add it in.
7. For video links, better use Template:YouTube. Or maybe making a video list like the YouTube example on Template:External media would be more tidy? We could make two video boxes for each Olympics. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 08:03, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@Yolo4A4Lo: Thank you very much for your detailed feedback despite the loads of work!

1. Yes, we had a similar idea to the "Going into the season" sub-sections. It might be a bit redundant to the main page, but every page should work on its own and a very basic summary of the cycle makes totally sense in this case. That includes the technical development, the key records and titles and crucial events like ankle injuries. Can all be summed up in a total of 2-3 sentences, which is a big help for casual readers.
2. For the layout upgrades we have three different possible sources: the submitted planned contents to the ISU (some of them were archived), the competition protocols and newspaper articles. I think, that should do.
3. Update: I used the YouTube template for the video links now, but did not change the gallery style, as I feel that it's valuable for readers to see a picture of the program.
4. I also added a more detailed section about the programs of the 13–14 season as example (I have the reference for the PW costume, but I don't know how to cite a TV news segment, in this case "NONSTOP!" on Fuji TV, aired on May 13, 2015).
5. Footnote: I have not added or changed anything in the other sections yet due to other commitments. Henni147 (talk) 17:34, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

TFL notification

Hi, Yolo4A4Lo. I'm just posting to let you know that List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu – a list that you have been heavily involved with – has been chosen to appear on the Main Page as Today's featured list for July 12. The TFL blurb can be seen here. If you have any thoughts on the selection, please post them on my talk page or at TFL talk. Regards, Giants2008 (Talk) 01:32, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

@Giants2008: Thank you for the selection. I think there's no problem with the blurb. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 07:40, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you!

		The Guidance Barnstar
		Thank you very much for your guidance and tireless work, especially in the editing process of the List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu and Hanyu's bios page. Your advices and changes were very helpful and valuable – Henni147 (talk) 10:03, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		Congratulations and thank you for the contributions on List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu which obtained a featured list promotion — Henni147 (talk) 10:03, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

completing directions

Hello friend how are you, I saw that you changed the redirection of the INI page, I know you are an editor of JO1, but what was your intention? If you changed the redirection, why didn't you create another page for the INI group? the name ¨ INI (group) was intended for a future page creation, please get in touch urgently. Please give us a prompt and timely solution!!

• @7290187mag: as I said as the reason on the change I did, the article "does not pass WP:BAND and is a case of WP:TOOSOON." Have you read those two links I put there? INI hasn't even debuted, nor they have any releases that is included in an national chart, hence they doesn't pass Wikipedia's Notability rule. Anyone or anything that is not deemed "notable" by Wikipedia can't have their own article. For INI's case, they're not notable enough yet. Just as JO1 was when they hadn't debuted, they couldn't have their own article. No matter how many times you change the redirect into an article, other editors will always revert it as long as they haven't met that rule. I suggest you prepare an article on INI as a draft and submit it after they debut and chart so Wikipedia editors can review it and put it up as an article. Wikipedia has rules, and they should be followed. Good luck. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 11:47, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Kanji writing of Tadashi Nagashima

@Yolo4A4Lo: According to kakaku.com the Kanji writing of the name Tadashi Nagashima is 永島正.

PS: Do you intend to do further changes on the draft page today? I'd like to expand some sections and maybe add infos about the current season if there is time. Best wishes Henni147 (talk) 09:16, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

• @Henni147: Thank you for the info. No, I may do it on Monday instead. The Sochi Olympics part is pretty good already for publish. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
  • @Yolo4A4Lo: Thank you very much for your edits on the draft page today! Just one question: I feel very uncomfortable with changing the original wording and punctuation of direct quotes, especially in blockquotes. At university we were instructed to take them 1:1 and mark all changes in square brackets, even spelling mistakes, left out full stops or changes from upper to lower case. They were very picky there. Do you know how Wikipedia handles changes in direct quotes? Henni147 (talk) 15:52, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Update: I provisionally returned the quotes from English sources to their original form. If you feel that it's better to change them and WP is okay with it, please feel free to revert my last edit. Henni147 (talk) 16:28, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

@Yolo4A4Lo: I completed the section about the upcoming Olympic season today and shared the draft page with the Axel With Wings translation team to check the added information for accuracy and discuss a possible shortening of the Ten to chi to section, as it's probably too long for the article in its current form(?) I would be very interested in your opinion, too :) Henni147 (talk) 19:40, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

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Ten's Discography

Baby Don't Stop and Low Low are not released as soloist, that's why they are under "collaborations" section.

Baby Don't Stop may be released as a group work (as stated on Youtube video as NCT U) BUT Low Low was released as TEN & YANGYANG NOT WAYV.

Also on Lucas's discography also showed his song as SM Station: Season 3 so don't cut it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:BA20:EA4D:AD0D:E499:2DB4:44BF (talk) 00:20, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Low Low is credited as an unit, or for more exact "WayV-Ten & Yangyang". They're mentioned as one on all music platforms and news. The name operates basically the same way as Super Junior-D&E and Exo-CBX (see, SM has a pattern there). Because the unit hasn't released enough material for them to get their own article, in the meantime they will be listed under NCT/WayV discography.

On SM Station songs, show me proof all the songs after Season 1 is available under one album. If you can't, then there's no reason to list it as an album. And it's already explained on the article it's under SM Project anyway. Lucas' discography is not maintained according to Wikipedia's guideline yet, and it doesn't mean Ten's has to stoop lower. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:39, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

How was Low Low is accredited as a unit since there was only two of them on the song? This song cannot be found anywhere in Wayv's discography neither where is it supposed to be then? What a funny explanation one is maintained guideline while another is not. Make it the same standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:BA20:EA4D:AD0D:E499:2DB4:44BF (talk) 01:55, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Here you can see on Spotify that "Low Low" is under WayV-Ten & Yangyang, not Ten. The song is listed on NCT discography under WayV complete with the note that it's a unit work.

We, editors, aren't paid and maintain Wikipedia in our free time, so we choose which pages we want to "watch" and maintain. It happens I'm a fan of Ten and I want to improve his page. I'll correct that part on Lucas' page if you want. If you have time to maintain all WayV's pages yourself than you're welcome. — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:09, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Listing SM Station Season 3 as the album is misleading since people, non-fans, will search the album title but only find a row of songs, not one album. I will put that information as a note beside the title if you keep insisting, but it's definitely not the album. — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

OK then. Your logic seems legit on "Baby Don't Stop". "New Heroes" & "Paint Me Naked" are in the project not album so it is understandable, I will edit them out. However, "Low Low" is still not listed on an actual WayV's discography nor Ten's, and "WayV-Ten & YangYang" won't be created as another sub-unit neither. Where should it be then? The source you have provided is kind of like a collection of all songs NCT has released so far but still cannot find a place where "Low Low" belong https://kpop.fandom.com/wiki/Ten#Digital_singles — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:BA20:EA4D:AD0D:E499:2DB4:44BF (talk) 02:25, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Because of WayV-Ten & Yangyang, "Low Low" is put under the NCT discography page which covers all releases by NCT and its unit. Just search "Low Low", it's there right under Kun and Xiaojun's "Back to You".

I have made the final changes to Ten's page, and that's how it should be. — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 02:36, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Therefore you are referring to this encyclopedia (https://kpop.fandom.com/wiki/Ten#Digital_singles) is not legit? "WayV-Ten & Yangyang" is not a unit but it is an artist which are "Ten" and "YangYang". It is not a soloist single hence it is on the collaborations section as it should be. I don't understand the logic of excluding the song where Ten is one of the only two main artist on the song and he didn't released it as WayV-Ten & Yangyang UNIT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:BA20:EA4D:AD0D:E499:2DB4:44BF (talk) 02:46, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that website is not legit. It's basically a fanmade website, they can put anything wherever they want. Here, as proof, a press release by OSEN, a big Korean news agency. They said, "WayV's new UNIT WayV-Ten&Yangyang will release their single 'Low Low' today (17th)," and at the end "WayV-Ten&Yangyang is the second UNIT combination of the Chinese group WayV". And actually the unit name is even written as WayV-Ten&Yangyang, no spaces, because they're counted as one. It has spaces on Wiki only because it's too long. — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 03:09, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

"Low Low" is the English collaboration single by Ten and Yang Yang. It was released on August 17, 2021. https://kpop.fandom.com/wiki/Low_Low — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:BA20:EA4D:AD0D:E499:2DB4:44BF (talk) 02:52, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Again, that website can't be used as a standard. It's managed by fans without references to reliable sources, such as news sites. — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 03:17, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

There are many references or new sites out there stated the song was a "COLLABORATION" released by "TEN" and "YANGYANG" not a song by the band "TEN&YANGYANG" (which either way it is a "collaboration" of "TEN") HereHereHere Here

Been discussing with other fan editors, even though "Low Low" was released under a sub-unit called "WayV-Ten&Yangyang", this song should still be put in Ten's discography as it's his "collaboration". This song wasn't from another "band" or "group" like "NCT U", "WayV", or "SuperM". It's a "collaborative" song from "TEN" and YangYang NOT a "group" or "band" named "WayV-Ten&Yangyang" (unit and band are different). That's the reason why kpop.fandom.com/wiki has listed it on Ten's discography. Unless Wiki guideline says otherwise which I cannot find a reason to exclude his own work from his discography HereHereHere Here

I'm not paid to edit and do it in my free time as well but I do it because I'm a fan of Ten and I want to improve his page and complete the information as much as possible. If you feel doing it unpaid in free time is not acceptable then you are welcome to leave.

I don't know what to say to you, but even though in interview-style articles they used a word "collaboration", it's still not how they formally credited. Just search "Low Low" on KOMCA, Korean Music Copyright Association, and you will see the credited performer is "WayV Ten and Yangyang". While for a collaboration work, they will be credited separately, just like "Cure" by Taeyong and Yoo Young-jin. Another proof is SM has dedicated page for WayV-Ten & Yangyang as one artist here. And yes, when WayV-Ten&Yangyang has their own Wikipedia page, "Low Low" will definitely be included in it. But they can't have their own page yet because they still can't meet Wikipedia's Notability requirement (they only have released one song which wasn't charting on any national main music chart). When they will meet the requirement? We don't know for sure, our best hope is when they release a unit album. And yes, that means we have to wait for probably a long time. That's why for now "Low Low" is listed on NCT discography and any news on the unit will be included on WayV page.

By the way I have been trying to improve Ten's page for years now, you don't need to worry about it. — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 08:10, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Been discussing with other fan editors, even though "Low Low" was released under a sub-unit called "WayV-Ten&Yangyang", this song should still be put in Ten's discography as it's his "collaboration". This song wasn't from another "band" or "group" like "NCT U", "WayV", or "SuperM". It's a "collaborative" song from "TEN" and YangYang NOT a "group" or "band" named "WayV-Ten&Yangyang" (unit and band are different). That's the reason why kpop.fandom.com/wiki has listed it on Ten's discography. Unless Wiki guideline says otherwise which I cannot find a reason to exclude his own work from his discography HereHereHere Here

By the way, I'm just here but looking for the completion, accuracy and precision of the information. I'm not looking for the duration of work of his editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:9800:BA20:EA4D:60D3:29BE:567F:56F0 (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Yolo4A4Lo has asked me to comment on the situation, so I'm here. First, Fandom can not be used as a source because its content is user-generated, thus not reliable. Second, "Low Low" is described to be a song by the sub-unit WayV-Ten&Yangyang among reliable sources, not a collaboration between the two members. This includes the Korean-language Osen and English-language Korea JoongAng Daily. As a compromise, I suggest replicating what has been done in Bruno Mars and Anderson .Paak with their work as Silk Sonic: add it to Ten's discography and write "(with Yangyang as WayV-Ten&Yangyang)" as a lead artist (see their respective discography pages for reference). ✗plicit 12:36, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Explicit::Thank you so much for your suggestion. Does this mean the song should be removed from NCT discography? The other subunit, WayV-Kun & Xiaojun hasn't had a respective personal page so I suppose we'll just leave it there. And should "Low Low" removed from Ten's page when WayV-Ten&Yangyang has their own page? — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 12:50, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't follow NCT, so their discography is a little confusing to me. I'm guessing the alternating members for every release is a result of them being a rotational group? I don't have a particularly strong opinion either way, but it would probably be best to leave the WayV sub-unit singles on NCT's discography page for now, as any removal would likely just invite more edit wars. Regarding their removal from the discography once the sub-unit members have their own pages, I think that's a discussion worth having when the time comes. ✗plicit 13:58, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, they have different members for each release when they're using NCT name as whole (not unlike AKB48 and their senbatsu system), and even when they release songs as NCT127/NCT Dream/WayV, sometimes not all members from that respective unit participate.

I personally think their discography page is so all over the place and too big, and i think it would be better if each permanent unit (NCT127/NCT Dream/WayV) have their own discography page and the current one will only cover releases by NCT U and their yearly all-members project, but i don't know what others may think about that idea.

Anyway, thank you so much for your help. I'll take note of your suggestion. — Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 14:23, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this would be a better solution rather than just leaving HIS OWN SONG outside HIS DISCOGRAPHY. Much much better solution!!! Thanks Explicit ::@Explicit::

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Taeyong Picture

I'd like to request a change in the photo of Taeyong on his page. A more updated one would be nice. 62.46.71.29 (talk) 06:27, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

The latest photos of him on Wikimedia Commons are these. If you have access to more latest non-copyrighted photos of him, you can help by uploading it there. (Or you can contact fansite who are willing to lend their photo and upload it) - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 06:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Billboard Japan charts

Do you expect Wikipedia editors to be following Billboard Japan and other chart publishers on social networks so that these chart publishers can make people aware there are errors with their published charts? If there's something wrong with their current published charts, they should un-publish them. Until such a time, I don't see a problem with reporting on their data that is still up on their website as I type this. Not that I'm going to re-revert you for it, but this really seems like you want to be the first to update the data when and if the chart position changes, because I don't see you reverting anybody else who added the Japan Hot 100 data from today aside from on JO1 articles. Ss112 07:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I reverted only JO1 articles because they're simply the only articles under my watch that got that update. And no, the information wasn't still up. I opened the original source before reverting your and another editor's update and it gave me a 404 not found, which led me to check Billboard Japan's social media. The correction was up since the earliest 05:28 UTC. So, no, it's not still on their website when you wrote this message. If you mind because I used the word "please wait", I only meant to inform anyone who may not follow Billboard's SNS that there would be a change and they might want to wait before continue updating. Whether they want to update with the corrected info later, it's up to them, there's no obligation here. Though I may update the ones on JO1 articles myself if there's no one correcting them because those article are under my watch. I don't even know if there's other articles that got the same update, so I don't expect anyone to do anything. It happens the new peak on JO1 song turned out to be a mistake, so there's no need for anyone to re-revert it, thank you. Lastly, you can see under JO1 Discography history that the one who's been updating it on time lately is not even me. My free time has been sporadic, so I only update what the other editor hasn't updated yet (whose updates I'm very grateful for). So, I don't know where this assumption that I want to be the fastest coming from. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:01, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Sarah Azhari

 I invite you to please join the discussion at Talk:Sarah Azhari.

Hello, we are seeking help with the Sarah Azhari article, created in 2013 & recently the subject of a deletion proposal. At issue was whether or not the Indonesian language sources establish notability. I am inviting you to the discussion at Talk:Sarah Azhari#Help with Indonesian language sources because you are in the Category:User id-N & have a minimum of 1,000 edits across all Wikimedia projects.

I realize that some of you are very busy while others may no longer be editing. Nevertheless, I thought it wise to consult with you.

Thank your for the work that you do on Wiki[mp]edia! Peaceray (talk) 21:06, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Ways to improve Short Program (TV series)

Hello, Yolo4A4Lo,

Thank you for creating Short Program (TV series).

I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:

Please add details of reviews in reliable sources.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Atlantic306}}. Remember to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Atlantic306 (talk) 00:45, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Atlantic306:: Hi, thank you for notifying me, but I would like to ask what does "reviews" mean here? Reviews of the series? Because it's still on-going so there's no reviews yet, but there are a bunch of articles on TV series that doesn't have reviews anyway. And every information in the article is the latest update and from reliable source. Do I misunderstand something? Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:44, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, reviews of the series in newspapers, magazines, reliable websites should be used when available to write a reception section. Doing this adds to the notability of the article so that it is more secure against deletion, regards Atlantic306 (talk) 22:01, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Walk It Like I Talk It

Hi, I'd like to ask about Walk It Like I Talk It position on JO1 Discography ... should it go to Promotional Singles section or Other Charted Songs section. Because other JO1 tracks who were pre-released after the title track digital release such as Icarus and We Alright are included in Other Charted Songs section. Thank you. --Moon Gin (talk) 01:36, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

We'll keep it there for now, I think. If they will release it as part of Kizuna (not separated like "Prologue" or "Freedom") and it charts, we'll move it to Other Charted Songs. If it doesn't chart, we'll remove it entirely. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Kizuna album page

Hi, I'm currently working on draft about JO1 Kizuna album page and I'd like to invite you to contribute and take part in the draft as well if you want. Thank you --Moon Gin (talk) 08:36, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

June 2022

Could you ping me if or when you are planning to do your expansion, which you mentioned on the other Talk page, for Hanyu's Skating technique section? Just let me know if it is this month or next month. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:00, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The update to include mentioned references during the article's discussion will start tomorrow if my work will give me enough free time. Since the sources are there already, I just need to re-read and draft the words. But the expansion to change it into Skating Technique and Artistry, I still need more sources for it. We only already have sources for his Olympics programs. I think I'll ask Henni's help for the sources as well. So maybe it will done next month. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 05:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The sandbox version you posted generally looks ok. My concern is that the Skating technique section make some notice of what other competitive skaters are doing in direct comparison to Yuzuru's top jumping skills. Namely, the Skating technique sections of Ilia Malinin has a link which shows that he is completing quad axels in practice with some skill; he seems to be on a faster track to completing a quad axel than anyone else and it seems worth a mention in Yuzuru's article. Also, the Skating technique section speaks of Alexandra Trusova as planning to be the first skater, man or woman, to complete a quintuple jump which Yuzuru has not stated any plans for doing. Some comments about the up-and-coming generation of quad experts seems a note in Yuzuru's skating section. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:45, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

But isn't adding that to Hanyu's page will be out of context though? We are talking about his ability and his impact on the sport, not what others are doing. I have set up his attempt at 4A led to more debate on quintuple and skating vs. jumps in general under the Accolades and Impact section, which will be closed with his personal stance on the debate. I think the progress Ilia and Trusova are having are more appropriate for the Quad jumps article rather than Hanyu's. Yet again, Ilia so far has only achieved it in practice and Trusova still only plans on doing it, so I'm not sure whether they are notable enough to be included in a Wikipedia article. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 14:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Your comments are all accurate; however the issue is of significance in looking at his achievements in a historical perspective both accurately and in context. Since the article already deals with comparing him to Dick Button in the past, then comparing him historically to Ilia in the present and future seems useful. Yuzuru has spent so much time speaking about the quad axel in the last year that it seems to make sense in a histicial context looking forward to mention Ilya's progress on the same quad axel which Yuzuru has made a priority for himself. You can decide on the best wording and if its worthwhile trying it. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:08, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a note of this, but of like I said now is too soon to add in anything because any progress done recently is not notable enough for Wikipedia's standard. Let's wait until someone gets the jump ratified. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Addition to the technique/artistry discourse

Hi! I wanted to give you a proper response to your first comment on this topic, but I didn't want to blow up the article talk page further, so I decided to write here. First of all, thank you very much for compiling all these definitions!

"Wikipedia itself defines the word ["artistry"] as 'significant artistic skill', while Cambridge dictionary defines it as 'great skill in creating or performing something' and Vocabulary.com defines it as 'a particular skill or flair for something, especially an artistic pursuit'."

I searched for concrete examples of artistic skills and got the following results from different sources: painting and drawing skill, sculpting skill, music composition skill, dancing skill, acting skill etc. These are all technical skills. So my conclusion is that "artistic skills" are understood as a special form or class of technical skills. We can basically group the main skills in figure skating as follows:

• Athletic technical skills: skating, jumping, spinning (and partner lifting in pairs and ID)
• Artistic technical skills: program composition, music translation, carriage & dancing (and acting if the skater portrays a person)

And we have in addition:

• Style: individual/personal approach to the program (not to be confused with a general dance style like samba)
• Commitment: physical, emotional and intellectual involvement in the performance

Hence, figure skating as a sport and performing art is the result of all aspects above with a potential aesthetic impact on the audience. With this definition of "artistry" I would definitely agree and support to use it if needed.

Again, thank you very much for your patience with me. This discourse helped me a lot and I hope, it didn't bother you too much. Henni147 (talk) 16:56, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

August-September 2022

There is a discussion at FAC for Tara Lipinski which you might be interested to see and maybe participate in. There may be some things of interest to the Hanyu biography article also in terms of formatting and edit conventions. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:38, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

The FAC is getting off to a slow start, and it might be useful if you could think about reviewing one or two of the articles currently nominated at FAC in sports or popular culture in order to get other editors to notice your name more readily. Once you complete your support/oppose comments for someone else's nomination, then you could also politely ask if they might look at the Hanyu FAC nomination to join in. Same for Henni147. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:31, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: yes, this is what I did yesterday. I started an FAC review for the 1981 World Snooker Championship, because I'm familiar with the editing of snooker tournament articles on German wiki, and the English counterparts are not much different in style. There is an older FAC nomination for snooker as well with the 2022 Welsh Open (snooker). Maybe I will tackle that one too if the review of 1981 Worlds doesn't bring enough traffic to our own article. Henni147 (talk) 07:16, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause @Henni147: I will try to review several articles I'm interested in or have knowledge of towards the weekend. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 07:26, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Has there been any progress on this? ErnestKrause (talk) 21:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I have reviewed the FAC on Gurl.com and invited the nominator to review. I'll try to do more in between my work. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:36, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Its picking up a little for the reviews of the Hanyu article, though it would be nice to attract more reviewers at the FAC. Nice going for the FAC articles which you both have already commented on. My other thought is that to get more reviewers, that it might be possible to go to the GAN nominations page, for Sports or Popular culture at GAN, and offer one or two of the experienced editors there to do their listed article at GAN if they will offer to do a review of the Hanyu FAC article currently in process. If they agree, then great, and you should go ahead and review their GAN article as long as they agree in advance. It might get more reviewers for the Hanyu article. What do you think? (Same for Henni147). ErnestKrause (talk) 12:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: Yeah, it might be a smart idea to offer a review exchange. I will go through the current GAN's and see if there is an article among them that I could review. Henni147 (talk) 13:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

There is a notice from the coordinators that the Hanyu article appears to lack the type of support normally needed for a regular FAC review. It is of importance that other editors become attracted to leave review comments of support or oppose for the article in the next few days if success is to remain a possibility. Both you and Henni should try to make 2 GAN reviews during this week-end, after contacting the GAN editors who currently have nominations on the GAN review noticeboard to see if they are ok with a review swap of Support/Oppose comments for the Hanyu article. After getting some further reviewers attracted to look at the Hanyu article for Support/Oppose comments, then it might be possible to move forward. This is of importance to the enhancement of the article. Also pinging Henni147. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:22, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Correction of ping to Henni to look at my comment here. The ping to Lee seemed to work, and some GAN reviewers added would be useful for the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 12:25, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: Yes, I got BennyOnTheLoose and Lee Vilenski both in the boat. And I contacted user Apqaria, who has contributed to Hanyu's main bios. She is willing to join the FAC review as well, but she needs a few more days to get it done. Henni147 (talk) 13:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for being MIA, caught up by IRL. But after we got the notification from the coordinator, I have sent out some invitations to editors who have worked on Hanyu's pages in the past, including 3a4t. There are already pending review/placeholder, do we still need more? I think I have a couple of editors I could ask. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Looks like congratulations on the Hanyu Olympics article. Nice going. ErnestKrause (talk) 22:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

New images for Hanyu's main bios page

@Yolo4A4Lo: A good friend of mine has provided some truly excellent pictures to Wiki Commons the last two days; the images of Hanyu's monuments and handprint memorial in Sendai are already added to the Olympic seasons page. Today she took shots of the new, large advertisement pillars by TV Asahi at Tokyo Station (image 1 and image 2), and also photographed two Kosé advertisement posters at Haneda Airport last year (Sekkisei TenChi and Sekkisei Origin). She also got a picture of a Yuzu cardboard at the Tourist Information Center in Sendai, and plans to take photos inside a bookstore packed with Yuzu books and magazines if she gets permission.

Footnote: the large add pillars at Tokyo Station made it to Japanese newspapers today like Tokyo Sports, so it really seems to be a big deal. I think, it would be awesome to have a small gallery of three pictures (one from Haneda, one from Tokyo Station, and one from Sendai) on Yuzu's bios page, maybe at the top of the endorsement section, to show his large public presence in Japan in a visual form, not just prose text. But I'd like to hear your opinion first. Henni147 (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi. Those are good photos. I saw what you did with the Olympic seasons, and I like it. I don't know if there's a regulation on number of images on one page, but I think we should be careful in balancing them out with the prose length and the article size (the loaded Kb to open it). Ideally, if there's a way to acquire them all, the images I think would be fitting:

1. A photo of his advertisement outside Japan, to show his international endorsement. But if we can't find it, the Sekkisei Ten To Chi To Partition Wall i think will be good to replace the current image of Endorsements and ambassadorships.

2. For Philanthropy, a photo showing him and the people at the 2018 parade, which profit was donated to affected tsunami area, and a photo of Sendai Ice Rink side-by-side (like in this second set photos under Babe Ruth#Early years) would be great.

3. I'm planning to combine the next two subsections into one Other media, for that we could add one photo of ad of his ice shows or book.

4. I've added the monuments photo to Accolades and impact (I've been trying to contact someone who has a photo of it but never got the reply. Finally!). I'm planning to add another paragraph on his popularity before "In recognition of his achievements", but feel free to move it around.

So, that means three other photos to add. Like I said it's ideally, so feel free to suggest other photos that are still related to the paragraphs.

By the way, I'm thinking to perhaps make another page of Hanyu titled List of Programs and Media of Yuzuru Hanyu. There would be table of his programs (we can make a special section for his ice show collaborations like we talked about last year), table of his DVD releases, list of bibliography (autobiography and photobooks), list of his exhibitions, etc. But that's still an idea because I still need to address the things on my to-do list first (but feel free to dump any info on those things I mentioned above on my Sandbox, I definitely need any help I could get with the research) and re-summarize his Public Life section. Another BTW, do you think we should move Pooh to Philanthropy (I will erase the subsection level, so just a paragraph) because at the end of the day he donates them?

So, yeah, all of those above is why I think his bio page is not ready for FA yet. Currently, I'm just adding archived links because many links are dead, especially from Ice Network and Golden Skate while looking for other articles to review on FAC. Look forward for your opinion. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:31, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick and detailed reply. Here are some thoughts/ideas:

1. I don't know if I can get access to overseas advertisement photos, but I can ask a fellow friend from Hongkong. Anyways, I agree that the TenChi partition wall fits the endorsement section.
2. My friend who provided the monument pictures, plans another trip to Sendai soon. I can ask her to take a shot at Sendai ice rink if permitted. She also might have an image of the parade in her private archives.
3. For the "Other media" section we could use one of the TV Asahi pillar galleries or wait for the bookstore shot.

I support your idea of new sub-pages. Yuzu's pro career section is expected to grow soon, and the page is at danger to blow up in size again. Also, I am not quite happy with the current structure and choice of section headings yet. We may consider to limit the TOC depth to 2 levels as well. I will think of some smart solutions and share a suggestion in my sandbox later.

About sourcing: there are many new excellent career summary pages (like nonno.hpplus by Shueisha) that we can use to drastically reduce the number of references and get rid of some dead Icenetwork or GS links. The new "Spin The Dream" website by Asahi Shimbun has compiled all of Yuzu's competition scores and results, even those from domestic novice events. You can find the table at the bottom of the page. I added this source to the Oly seasons 'further reading' section already.

I have long planned to do a total clean-up of the reference section on Yuzu's bios page, and make it uniform with the two sub-pages. But I want to wait with that until the other changes on the page are completed (don't want to do superflous formatting work for sources that get removed). Henni147 (talk) 02:30, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I'll check with those two sources and only add archive links to information not yet included in them.

For the TV Asahi pillars, I think the first image is better, but it needs to be cropped so Hanyu's face can be seen clearly even in a thumbnail. I did a quick cropping here, maybe just need to cut the ceiling a little bit for the image ratio, but that's my idea.

For the TOC level, I think it can stay as it is now because the per season subsections are important, but for Public Life, maybe we can merge it into something like Cristiano Ronaldo#Outside football, especially if we'll make another sub-page for his media, we won't need to go in details there.

If you want to clean-up and re-assign the refs, the parts that are pretty much done are: Early Life, Competitive career (still need some copy edit and paragraphs rearranged, but I don't see we'll remove a lot of things from there. In contrast, we need to add things we have missed but always included in his career summary by media), Former coaches and choreographers, Skating style and artistry, Education, and World records.

Oh, and on Cristiano's and other GA/FA pages as well, they put Philanthropy under Personal Life since it's one's personal decision to help and not a venture/business. What do you think? - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 03:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

• Re sources: I forgot to mention that I have full access to Hanyu's career summary in the latest issue of the IFS magazine, which also includes interviews with Brian Orser and Ghislain Briand that can be very useful for the coaches section. That magazine also covers the full story about Hanyu being booed at the 2012 Japan Championships podium, the officials' reaction to Hanyu's win over Takahashi, and also Orser's memories of that moment, which was a very serious issue and should be mentioned in one or two sentences imo. I also have access to many other books and magazines, so if you need anything, feel free to ask.
• In general, I like the solution with the "Outside football/skating" section, but I think, in Hanyu's case this is a bit difficult to realize, because most of his endorsements, ambassadorships, books, and magazines are somehow linked to his skating career. An "outside skating" section would probably only cover his few appearances on film and television.
• The philantropy section is very interesting, because it's indeed a personal decision like you mentioned. On the other hand, the donations and charity activities are linked to public appearances, and have an impact on local economy. This all happens outside Hanyu's private space. For that reason, it might be the ideal transition paragraph from public to private life. What do you think?
• Addition: the most important fact about Hanyu's private life is that it's as private as it can possibly be under the circumstances and his popularity level. He makes a very clear cut and shares hardly anything of his private life in public. Apart from his new YouTube channel (which is also dedicated to skating), he has no social media account until today. I think, this is a fact that should be mentioned on his bios page in one sentence at least.
• One last note: I suggest to change "Skating style and artistry" to "Technical skills and skating style". The current heading completely neglects the technical skills, which are a crucial aspect in this section, while "artistry" is overlapping with both, the skating style and creative technical skills. I think that, in Hanyu's case, this section is the essence of both, his competitive and professional skating career, and also of his skating philosophy in general. Hence, we should place big importance on the accuracy (esp. correct FS terminology) and completeness of this section.

I will create a little draft for the page structure now, and you are free to decide if we use something of it or not. Henni147 (talk) 07:55, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

• About the IFS magazine, I think I already saved the copy, but I haven't had the time to read it. Yes, those points definitely need to be included in the bio. And on Hanyu had no social media before his YouTube account, I plan to add it into the future popularity paragraph under Accolades and Impact, connecting it to how despite that fact, he still has a big presence on SNS through fans and other people.
• The philanthropy is so tricky to me. FS MOS calls it "philanthropic work" , so I assume they expect it to be more of Public than Personal Life, though it's under Personal Life on Lipinski's article since hers isn't that long. I think we can draft it and try to put it under both (on Sandbox) and see how it would flow.
• Oh, the title doesn't necessarily have to be "Outside skating" if it makes it tricky. We can keep "Public life" (They used it for Evan Lysacek as well; some other FS bio use "Public image" instead, which I think is not the right term and could have far different meaning on Hanyu - spoiler: it would be similar to Accolades and Impact)
• Actually, "Skating style and artistry" covers both technical and non-technical side of skating. Like "artistry", "skating style" overlaps both because it means what set his skating apart from other skater's, because definition of "style" is "the manner how you do something". So, Hanyu's style is his 3A, his smooth skating, his gender-bending appearance, the story of his programs. "Artistry" is how he achieved them; his very few transitions, these movements that are more commonly known to women, his active role in the creation of his programs, etc. So, I won't mind if you want to change it to "Skating technique (what MOS FS uses) and artistry", but I just wanted to say the meaning of the current title doesn't differentiate between the two either.

Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 08:57, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

"on Hanyu had no social media before his YouTube account, I plan to add it into the future popularity paragraph under Accolades and Impact, connecting it to how despite that fact, he still has a big presence on SNS through fans and other people." Agree, this is a very good solution.

Re "Skating style and artistry": I actually agree with you that style and artistry in the heading should be enough. But this only works if people stop treating athleticism and artistry as two opposite poles of a binary system. Sadly, many still do, and we need to consider this in our wording. Hence, the inclusion of (athletic) technical skills in the heading is a MUST in my opinion. Here is an explanation why I think that "Technical skills and skating style" is the best solution for the heading:

Like the 3A, Hanyu's low number of required crossovers to gain speed is a highly athletic, technical skill and should be clearly labelled as such. Of course, it can add to the artistic value of his performance, but this is a bonus. First and foremost it is a technical skill. And it's an insanely difficult one that many ice dancers can hardly master until the end of their career. Labelling difficult transitions as "artistry" is really dangerous (even if it's true), because many people still have this terrible misconception in mind that quads are the technical/athletic part of figure skating, while the entire rest is art, but not sport. I want to have stated crystal clear that complex transition work is impossible without sublime skating skills (technical foundation) and outstanding athletic fitness (it requires power, precision, coordination, balance, agility, and endurance). The artistic value for the program comes on top of that.

If skaters use tons of crossovers and 2-footed skating, it is their choice and hence part of their personal style. But at the same time, it is a display of weak technical skills in skating, as they are obviously not capable to generate speed through rhythmic knee action and efficient stroking, and this MUST be punished by the judges in the PCS with low skating skill marks. Regardless of any intentional, stylistic choices that may fit the music, dance, acting or whatever.

In conclusion, it is essential to distinguish between a) the technical foundation (repertoire of skills), b) the personal style (selection of skills), and c) the fitness/commitment on the day (successful demonstration of skills). These three are the pillars of every kind of performing art, figure skating included, and were all mentioned either in the ISU TP handbook or the old PCS chart. They all contribute to the artistic value of a performance, but they also need to be evaluated separately from each other. The technical skills are those that can be evaluated properly by objective standards and should be judged in sports competitions in the first place, while personal style is rather subjective, develops through various influences (other skaters, personal taste etc.), and is usually the key to popularity and appeal to the audience. Hence, these two aspects nicely describe the current content in our section. "Artistry" kind of stands above all, and you need to excel at all three pillars/aspects to reach the highest level of artistry (this is my understanding).

Sorry for the long text, but I hope, this makes my standpoint clear. Your argument is not wrong, but it further nurtures the narrative that Hanyu is an artist, while the young quad jumpers are athletes (I'm just tired of that nonsense).

Here is my suggestion for a possible structure of Yuzu's bios page: User:Henni147/sandbox. I have added some colored comments to explain my ideas. The changes in the career section are all optional. If you prefer the current heading structure, I'm totally fine with that, too. Henni147 (talk) 14:35, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Rather than becoming a broken record, I have changed the title to Skating Technique and Style as the middle ground. I have updated your sandbox with my future plans for the article. I think trivial changes like TOC level, changes to titles of existing subsections (Competitive career, Skating technique and artistry), deleting the World record scores subsection, and the paragraph merge for Early career can be done now. Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 16:51, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you very much for all comments and changes. I agree with all your suggestions.

• Re "Ice Prince": You might be right that this "Ice Prince" thing should be mentioned somewhere. To be honest, I have no idea where it comes from and why media (English media especially) is so obsessed with it recently. I remember that after Pyeongchang, some skaters were asked by the Olympic Channel to describe Hanyu in one word, and just shortly called him 'king' (Medvedeva, Takahashi, and some others). German commentator Daniel Weiss noted in nearly every FS broadcast on ARD that Hanyu is commonly known as 'der Galaktische' (the Galactic). Some others refer to him as 'God' or 'GOAT' or 'Michael Jackson on Ice' whatever. Maybe put this issue on hold for the time being, and only add it if it has become some official nickname.
• How do you plan to move the program table? My idea is to at least show a condensed table on the main bios page with the senior SP and FS titles, and use the nonno.hpplus summary as one global reference with anchor links to each source. Example:

Senior competition programs by season

Season	Short program	Free skating	Ref.
2010–11	"White Legend"	Zigeunerweisen	Details
2011–12	Étude in D-sharp minor	Romeo + Juliet	Details
2012–13	"Parisienne Walkways"	Notre-Dame de Paris	Details
2013–14	"Parisienne Walkways"	Romeo and Juliet	Details
2014–15	Ballade No. 1 in G minor	The Phantom of the Opera	Details
2015–16	Ballade No. 1 in G minor	Seimei	Details
2016–17	"Let's Go Crazy"	Hope and Legacy	Details
2017–18	Ballade No. 1 in G minor	Seimei	Details
2018–19	"Otoñal" (Autumnal)	Origin	Details
2019–20	"Otoñal" (Autumnal)	Origin	Details
	Ballade No. 1 in G minor	Seimei
2020–21	"Let Me Entertain You"	Heaven and Earth (天と地と)	Details
2021–22	Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso	Heaven and Earth (天と地と)	Details

The use of direct source links has the advantage that we don't flood the reference section with countless individual citations. I used that method on the career achievement page as well.

• Re lead section: I think, the current lead of Hanyu's main bios would nicely fit the career achievement page, where the lead is rather sparse at the moment. Maybe we could move it there and develop a new lead for the bios, based on the examples you mentioned. Henni147 (talk) 11:45, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• I have tried to look for it too but few sources said "fans named him" that (me, as the fan: heh?). we need to look for the first mention of it and maybe see how it has evolved.
• Move it like we did with the world records. Maybe only leave out his future pro programs, and put a For template to the rest of his programs.
• Yeah, we could do that. I had a problem writing the lead for the Achievements at first because I realized I would just repeat the main bio lead.

Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 12:49, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Promotion of Yuzuru Hanyu Olympic seasons

Congratulations, Yolo4A4Lo! The article you nominated, Yuzuru Hanyu Olympic seasons, has been promoted to featured status, recognizing it as one of the best articles on Wikipedia. The nomination discussion has been archived.

This is a rare accomplishment and you should be proud. If you would like, you may nominate it to appear on the Main page as Today's featured article. Keep up the great work! Cheers, Gog the Mild (talk) via FACBot (talk) 00:06, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Welcome to the club

		The Featured Article Medal
		By the authority vested in me by myself it gives me great pleasure to present you with this special, very exclusive award created just for we few, we happy few, this band of brothers, who have shed sweat, tears and probably blood, in order to be able to proudly claim "I too have taken an article to Featured status". Gog the Mild (talk) 13:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you today for the article, done in collaboration, "about the mens ice skating champion Yuzuru Hanyu's Olympic seasons. He has recently retired from competition and completed his career of competing at the Olympics; this article covers his medal winning three appearances at the Olympics."! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:25, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Precious

awaken the world

Thank you for quality articles around figure-skating, such as Yuzuru Hanyu Olympic seasons and List of career achievements by Yuzuru Hanyu, and around music including JO1 and Awaken the World, for working in collaboration, for "I don't own articles but I always strive to improve them", - Yolo, you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2782 of Precious, a prize of QAI. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

TFA request for Olympic seasons page

Hello Yolo4A4Lo and ErnestKrause,

I hope, it's okay that I suggested the Olympic seasons article for TFA. I think that Hanyu's birthday in December is a nice occasion to pin the article on the mainpage.

Unfortunately, with my medical treatment and other RL issues, I did not have the time to revamp the first key event section yet, but since the page got a pass for FAC already, I wonder if we should change anything at all or just leave the sections as they are now? I still plan to record a spoken version until December 7, so it would be great to decide about the content/structure of those key event sections soon.

Best wishes and thank you very much for your hard work. Henni147 (talk) 10:37, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

I've just added my support on TFA. Regarding the Hanyu biography article, I'm thinking that it would be good to mention the completion of a quad axel in competition recently by another skater, since Hanyu has previously stated that he wanted to be the first. ErnestKrause (talk) 13:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

I'll add the information under the Beijing Olympics section. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:45, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

@Henni147: As I stated before, I personally think it's okay as it is now. But if we're about to change it (what doo you think @ErnestKrause? Is the compact version better?), I made a re-summarize attempt on your sandbox. I think that's short enough. Read it, if you say yes, I'll move it to the article. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:50, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

It all looks pretty good. Is it worth starting to think about moving the Hanyu biography article towards a FAC nomination as well? ErnestKrause (talk) 13:50, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: My current to-do list looks as follows:

1. Record a spoken version of Olympic seasons sub-page in the next days (1-2 weeks), so that it's ready until December 7 for "Today's featured article".
2. Bring Hanyu's main bios to FAC and complete the draft for his programs and publications, so that it can be moved to the article mainspace. Then we can shorten or remove the program table from the bios page (mass of inline citations included).

RE key event sections: I asked some readers which structure they prefer. Most picked the division by SP/FS/global events, including the FAC reviewers Lee Vilenski and Epicgenius. It is also the shortest of the three options, but I yet have to create the section for the pre-13/14 events. I will try to complete that one now and run another global check for readability, linking, and inline citations.

If you agree, I would embed the drafts into the main article. If you prefer the current key event sections, we can also leave them as they are now. Personally, I have no issue with their current length or structure either (and they are already checked for all criteria + errors). Henni147 (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

The improvements to the article should continue as you state above. The one thing which I'll note at this time to keep in mind is that the article is over 200Kb in size which may become an issue for further nomination of the article. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:18, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: Are you referring to Hanyu's bios with the +200Kb size? The wiki page size tool says that it's currently at 56Kb readable prose. I think that's fine, especially for a thorough bios like Hanyu's, and I see possibilities to further shorten the prose size if needed.

About the key event sections on the Olympic seasons page: I realized that a re-structuring by SP/FS doesn't make much sense for the key events before the 13/14 season (see note on the draft page). My personal suggestion is:

1. Use Yolo4A4Lo's shortened version of the 13/14 key events from the draft page
2. Use the summaries by segment (SP/FS) for the other two key event sections from the draft page

Advantages: a) It's the shortest solution in prose length overall and b) it shows nicely Hanyu's records, strengths, and weaknesses in the SP/FS heading into the respective Olympics. It also underlines why the error in his short program at the Beijing Olympics was so devastating after him being the dominant SP skater throughout the Olympic cycle. This adds another dimension to his challenge of Rondo Capriccioso at the 24H show that doesn't fully come across in the current article.

If everyone agrees, I would adjust the Olympic seasons page as suggested above. Henni147 (talk) 15:00, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm generally fine with that and Yolo can confirm when she does a log in. Regarding the main Hanyu biography, it is presently coming in at a full file size of 270Kb which deserves being kept in mind. Some of it is images and tables, though that file size is quite large. Any thoughts for when attention can turn to the main Hanyu biography upgrades. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:06, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: I try to complete the draft for Hanyu's programs and publications as soon as possible. Then we can remove the current program table (including all references and images at the side) from the main bios page. That alone should reduce the total page size massively.

Update: I decided to adjust all three key event sections in the Olympic seasons article (I'm busy tomorrow, so I did it today). I realized that with the summary by segment, the page size gets reduced by 5.4Kb, which is quite a lot, so I would support to go with this solution.

• If you support this solution as well, I will ask FrB.TG if the few added sources are fine.
• If you feel that a uniform chronological summary is better, you can revert my last edit. Henni147 (talk) 16:56, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause@Henni147: I suggest to not being hasty with the main article because honestly it's still all over the place and there are some details that haven't been covered, some important materials (such summaries of his career published by media) haven't been included yet. We made detailed to-do lists here. I'm currently waiting for translation on his view on focus on quads. Feel free to help.

I'm satisfied with Yuzuru Hanyu Olympic seasons‎ already. List of programs and publications of Yuzuru Hanyu is also looking good, but it's very important for us to establish why each section is notable enough to be included in the lede. Once that done, as Henni said, we could move a lot of tables and images there. Oh, and don't the old Key Events on your sandbox. I believe there are little details to be added to the main article from there. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:18, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I stored the old key event sections (incl. references) in my sandbox, so that we can use them for the main bios if needed.

Regarding the program and publication list: I plan to write short prose paragraphs for the different sections to point out their importance/notability (I have collected and stored all required sources in an external file already), and then develop the lead based on those paragraphs. I want to do that parallel to the recording of the spoken version of the Oly seasons article.

Info: Marika who has recently joined the Axel with Wings translation team (JP-EN), has now created a wiki account here as well (Marika yuzu) and would like to help us with the polishment of Hanyu's page series. She has access to many Japanese books and magazines and has contributed some great pictures already. I'm sure, she will be a very valuable member of our team. Henni147 (talk) 08:13, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Nice to see another editor with an interest in Hanyu, though her account appears to be a redlink. The issue of the quad axels may now not be on Hanyu's top priority list since the Olympics are over. ErnestKrause (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause: Hanyu mentioned in a recent interview that he still works on the quad Axel and aims to land it at an ice show in the near future. If he succeeds, I will add that information to the 2022 post-Olympic event section on his Olympic seasons page for completeness. Regarding the red link: Marika has not created her userpage yet. I replaced the link by her new talk page. Henni147 (talk) 17:31, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you

		The Teamwork Barnstar
		Thank you very much for your excellent contributions in the planning and editing process of Hanyu's page series. It's great to work with you, and I hope that we can bring his series to a featured topic together. Henni147 (talk) 14:12, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

WayV discography

Hi, regarding the split discussion at NCT discography, I'd appreciate your help with WayV's discography. I have drafted an article for 127 and Dream, but I'll leave WayV to you. When you're done, I'll rewrite the lead at NCT discography. Thank you! Poirot09 (talk) 21:04, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for late reply, I was busy with irl. I'll start drafting now. I'll ping you when it's decent enough to go live. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:45, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Poirot09: Hi, the draft I have made is finished and ready to be moved to the article namespace whenever you want. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 08:39, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Yolo4A4Lo I've completed the split. Thanks for the help!! Poirot09 (talk) 12:10, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Yuzuru Hanyu task force launched

Hi! I decided to create a Yuzuru Hanyu task force page within the scope of the WikiProject Figure Skating. I received various requests from authors to join our team and also to brush up Hanyu's articles in other languages. So I thought, it makes sense to coordinate our tasks on one big page and also compile our own manual of style that we use on this page series. I will create a more detailed to-do list later. Since you are also a key member of our author team, it would be great if you added your username at the bottom as a coordinator as well.

@ErnestKrause and Figureskatingfan: maybe you'd like to join this task force as well? It would be great to have someone who supervises nominations and reviews, and you did a great job with the article about Hanyu's Olympic seasons. Henni147 (talk) 16:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

All ready to support Hanyu articles when needed. Any plans for turning to the Hanyu biogaphy article for possible promotion? ErnestKrause (talk) 16:06, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm in! You know that I support any and all things figure skating on Wikipedia, so I'm happy to do whatever's needed, especially supervising said nominations and reviews. I can also help with a MOS. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@ErnestKrause and Figureskatingfan: Excellent. Thank you very much for your quick replies. Maybe you can add your usernames at the bottom of the task force page too and note in brackets where your focus is on (nominations, MOS, etc.)?

Re Hanyu's main bios: There is still a lot to be done. We are currently working on the creation of two new sub-pages about his ice shows and programs/publications to unburden the main bios. It is expected that Hanyu will continue his career as a professional skater for a couple of years, so his article is likely to grow as well, and it's good to distribute the content from the beginning. This is easier than another page split. To get all this properly coordinated, I set up the task force page. Henni147 (talk) 17:29, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Henni147: Added my username. So all the talks about the project will go on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Figure Skating/Yuzuru Hanyu task force?? Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:36, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's a better place than our individual user talkpages, since everyone in the team can see it. I will set up a proper talkpage there today that we can add to our watchlists. I hope, that's a good solution. Henni147 (talk) 04:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

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Phantom (EP)

Since you usually update WayV's articles, I wanted to inform you that an inexperienced editor (I think) has created a wholly unsourced page for Phantom. I've tried to improve it to establish notability at least, but if you have time you should check it out. Poirot09 (talk) 11:43, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I'm not inexperienced but I'm barely getting back to editing after years of not really being active. I will try to add more sources sorry :( , I would like to add the album cover to the article but frankly I forgot how to so I will leave it up to somebody else more familiar with that ambit. Thank you --Bwoii (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

@Bwoii Responded on your talk page. Poirot09 (talk) 20:11, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

@Poirot09@Bwoii Firstly, thank you Poirot for informing me. I actually have made a draft page for Phantom before I was off for new year's holidays, but since there's already a page for it now, I'll delete the draft. I'll update the current page with all the sources I've collected in the coming days. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 13:33, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

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Yuna Kim A-class assessment

Hey Yolo, would you mind assessing this bio? I'd appreciate it if you did, here's the link: Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Assessment/Yuna Kim. Best, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Hi again, pinging you again, since the need is more urgent now. We have two reviewers, we need one more. Appreciate your assistance, thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

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Editing the Sam Read (actor) page

Hi Yolo4A4Lo, we’ve both been editing Sam Reid Wikipedia page in last week or so. I don’t want us to keep going back and forth on the page with our edits. We both want to improve the page.

I think that it’s probably a good idea for us to use Talk pages to discuss edits that each feel are unnecessary/incorrect, in order to create edits that are necessary/correct. Would you line up team up to do this? Helping each other discuss/find/edit the material needed would help the page overall. Elinoria (talk) 11:40, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

You could draft the article on your sandbox and I would read and give you some feedbacks. I actually have collected a lot of sources for the page but I don't have the time to draft it because of real life events and I have other pages I have to maintain regulary, so maybe I will add them into your draft bit by bit. But before that, I need you to read Wikipedia guidelines, such as how to write articles, how to write biography (shorter version for copy editing),the Manual of Styles (also MoS for Biography) , Wikiproject for Film Biography, and on Reliable Sources (here list of reliable sources). - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response.

Please visit the page of the actor Andrew Burt to see a page that I previously overhauled.

The page prior to my editing:

http://en.m.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Andrew_Burt&oldid=810120796

The page when I completed my overhaul and stopped editing it:

http://en.m.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Andrew_Burt&oldid=930737390

I would like to explain the reasons behind changes I attempted to make to the Sam Reid page in due course.

In the meantime I will read the articles you linked to.

Sounds great that we can come to a compromise and work together on this. Elinoria (talk) 09:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The changes you did with that Andrew Burt page indeed improved it, but that's still lower in quality compared to current Sam Reid page. Wikipedia articles are grouped into classes based on its quality. Andrew Burt page is still on Start class, while Sam's is already on C class. The way to improve Sam's page is to add more exposition. Single-sentence paragraphs actually should be avoided. And all statements have to be sourced. Just compare them with Josh O'Connor article. It's B-class, nominated to be a Good Article. Or with Good Article like Florence Pugh. That's the direction to strive for when editing Wikipedia articles. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 11:13, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Andrew Burt’s page ratings include reference to:

Low-Importance Television

Low-Importance Yorkshire

Unknown Importance biography

These things do not reflect the quality of information/content of the article, but rather the importance of the person about whom the article was written.

I agree that the Sam Reid page is full of single sentence paragraphs, many of which were/are disjointed. I did not write them. There is even a cut-and paste paragraph from an interview in there that I have already tried to reword, but you reverted.

As you can also see, I have been trying to flesh-out these sentences, and create a flow that avoids the current disjointed sentences, but again, reverted.

The grammar needs correcting in places, as does the flow of the writing.

I agree that the Josh O’Conner and Florence Pugh articles are good. I myself have been referring to the article about Ewan McGregor.

I also agree that the page needs further exposition, and that is another of my plans.

There are reasons for the edits I made to the Sam Reid article that you have reverted, and I will explain them in my next post, time-dependent, and trust that we will agree on a way forward to improve the SR article. Elinoria (talk) 12:48, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

"This article is rated Start-class" that is the part that reflects the quality of the article. You can read more about the assesment here. A lot of additions you did on Sam Reid page are details that are not stated in the sources. You can't add new details without adding new source that back it up. And the rest I did is copy editing the format in accordance to Wikipedia's MOS. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 00:30, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi -Yolo4A4Lo

In response to your previous message:

It is not the case that I made ‘a lot’ of additions without sources. If I didn’t add a new source to an edit, that was because the information was already included in the reference that it had been taken from in the first place. You do not need to add identical references.

I am puzzled as to why you removed tiny details such as that Reid played Harry Pearce in the ‘final episode’ of Spooks, or that it was ‘in flashback’. To have performed in the final episode of a popular show, as the main character, is a point of interest, and the information that it was done “in flashback” explains how that was possible. You say that those tiny snippets of information should have had their own distinct references. Wikipedia would grind to a halt if every separate ‘snippet’ required its’ own separate source. To provide a comparison to pages you have recommended to me - you suggested I read Josh O’Conner and Florence Pugh’s articles. However, having looked at them, it can be seen that major references are missing. Shall I assume that you will also delete the edits made by the editors on their pages?

You reverted my edits to the Orson Welles paragraph. However, if you had looked at the original source, you would have seen that the existing paragraph was just a direct cut and paste from the online article. To improve the integrity of the source, I reworded it and changed words like “his hero” to “admired”. It makes very little difference to the reader, but absolutely improves the page’s quality.

I would like to reinstate some of the content that you have deleted - but from experience, predict that you will again, revert my edits.

Ultimately, we both want to improve the page, and I would like to add far more information and improve the quality of the article, so do you see a way forward? Elinoria (talk) 16:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I edited yours into "In 2011, Reid played the young Harry Pearce in the series ten of the BBC drama Spooks." The Harry character is still included. And check the source I references, he didn't appear just on the final episode. He appeared in three (3) episodes. "in the flashback" is still redundant detail. And you cited his own agency's page as a source, that's called a primary source, which use should be avoided as much as we can especially when better sources are available. And the source you provided only mentions his role, no mention of "last episode" nor "flashback". "Wikipedia would grind to a halt if every separate ‘snippet’ required its’ own separate source." But it's true, every detail should be provided with a source. If that detail isn't included in the given source, then we have to look for another source. If we can't find them, then it has to be removed. Especially for a biography page. "Shall I assume that you will also delete the edits made by the editors on their pages?" Yes, however I don't watch their pages. I spend time editing on Wikipedia without pay. I only watch pages I am interested in, one of them is Sam Reid's page, Jacob Anderson's, and their show. I was the one who updated Reid's acting credit tables with all of its sources. Basically wrote the whole subsection of Interview with The Vampire Season 1 reviews after months of gathering sources, wrote, and edited them to make sure all details are sourced. I always strive to edit the pages I watch to Good Article standard, so if one day someone would like to bring it to GA status, that person won't need to work on too many things. If you want to see pages I worked on, you can check Yuzuru Hanyu and Yuzuru Hanyu Olympic seasons.

I reinstated some of your edits and removed some details to reduce possibility of copyright violation. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 01:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Yolo4A4Lo,

Your message answers statements I did not make.

In response:

I did not claim that you excluded the Harry Pearce character - it has always been part of that edit, and no one removed it.

I didn’t claim that SR only appeared in the final episode of Spooks.

I didn’t dispute that I cited Reid’s agency page, which you later removed.

It’s disappointing to see this happening with Reid’s page. It has potential for significant improvement, but this feels like gatekeeping. Elinoria (talk) 08:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I literally just take your edit on the Orson Welles part and the pre-existing paragraph, which I wrote last year, and rewrote it to avoid copyright violation, which improves the article's quality. That's a middle ground. But if you still call that "gatekeeping" then we have exhausted this conversation. And as a good editor, I will always make decision based on Wikipedia guidelines. Thank you. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 09:32, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

IMDb as a reference

Hi Yolo4A4Lo,

I have cited IMDb as a reference for Reid’s performance in Endeavour, having been unable to find another one online.

Do you think it is a sufficient source? Elinoria (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Accurate referencing

Hi Yolo4A4Lo,

Thanks for finding a non-IMDB source for SR’s Endeavour role. Also, do you think the mention of the complaint about The Taking of Prince Harry film is a necessary addition to the article? I did see it on the movie’s Wikipedia page, but it doesn’t seem relevant to SR. Let me know your thoughts—I’m aiming to add more to SR’s page but keep it concise, but wanted to check with you before I revert it. Elinoria (talk) 08:11, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

For actor biography, it's ideal to give more context for the role and the project (what they play, how they cast, what kind of movie/show etc.) they were in when there are reliable sources for it. For example, the Barbie section on Margot Robbie page highlights Barbie's gross, which is its biggest achievements. Unfortunately, Reid played a leading role in a film whose controversy was reported by Guardian, one of UK major publications. I think one sentence isn't that OOT. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 10:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

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CinEuphoria Awards

Other Game of Thrones actors had this award on their list of nomination, I tried to add this to Jacob’s page after I saw one of Game of Thrones, child actor Bella had CinEuphoria awards on her nomination list but user Yolo4A4Lo keep deleting it eventough Bella Ramsey, Dean Chatles, and several GoT actors already add CinEphoria on their nom list since 2020. Even other actors outside of Game of Thrones, used CinEuphoria awards in their nominations. If you check Jacob Anderson IMDb, it was written Jacob won 2 awards including CinEuphoria, actors & directors usually use their portofolio from IMDb for their career since it is more official and trustworthy compared to Wikipedia when here people could randomly put everything. Based on official website of IMDb, where only IMDb staff and director or production people could gave their information, they wrote about Jacob Anderson with Game of Thrones cast got the awards, including CinEuphoria awards. So, User Yolo4A4Lo stop deleting it please, I add CinEuphoria because on reliable official website like IMDb, staff wrote he won 2 awards, but on his wikipedia he just won 1 award because no one never try to open his IMDB profile and check all his information there. Wikipedia is a weaker source information compared to IMDb, that’s why actors profile are more detailed on IMDb. You could check it by yourself, how many awards he won based on IMDb, on wikipedia random people could change but only IMDb staff and people who work officially in film industry who could add things on that website. I hope you could learn and stop deleting my addings for CinEuphoria. Lighttunder (talk) 09:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I have a bad news for you: IMDb is never an "official" or "reliable" website. Their awards section isn't behind paywall and can be updated by anyone. I myself sometimes added legit awards that people haven't added to IMDb. IMDb itself even put a disclaimer on their award submission page saying they knew there are numerous award events not meeting their criteria and they haven't gotten rid off them.The only part of IMDb that's kind of "protected" is their cast and staff list, but even for that, as long as you can afford paying IMDb Pro, you can access that.

On the other hand, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Everyone can update it, yes. But there are thousands of volunteers, like me, watching over tens article at once to make sure every statement has citation and meet our numerous guidelines. And yes, our consensus says IMDb is not a reliable source, as explained on WP:IMDB. Every article on Wikipedia is also classified based on how "good" it is wrt reliability, notability, accessibility, and writing. Jacob Anderson's page is on Class B (you can check on the Talk tab). While Ramsey is on Class C and Chatles' page even has a warning on top of it because it has no citation at all. I and other editors strive to make each article better, not worse, so yes I'll remove any addition that has no reliable source (And just so it looks "fair" to you, I'll remove their CinEuphoria award as well).

So far, you only cited IMDBb and the Portuguese Wikipedia for that award, and both leads to an inactive film "award" blog based on Blogger. I couldn't find any proof that CinEuphoria is a legit awarding entity and recognized by people in the industry. So, unless you can provide a proof, for example a big news outlets like Variety, The Hollywood Reporter, cover that award on their reporting, I have to remove that it. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 14:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Two years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 09:12, 9 December 2024 (UTC)