Supergoalie1617

Deckplate Leadership

On your user page you talk of Wikipedia articles being full of POV and how you became so disgusted that you quit editing. You have chosen to edit the article Chief Petty Officer and deleted the section on 'deckplate leaders'. Your entry on the articles discussion page justifies your reasoning for deleting the section on deckplate leaders by saying that in your experience you never heard of Chief Petty Officers being referred to as deckplate leaders. You further state that the Chiefs you knew of sat around and drank coffee all day long. Your removal of the deckplate leaders section displays a POV. I see a disgruntled junior Petty Officer that somehow wishes he could have made Chief so that he could sit around an do nothing all day long.

Maybe the Chiefs in your Navy sat around all day long, but I know for a fact that most Navy and Coast Guard Chief Petty Officers have responsibilities that a Petty Officer Second Class can not even begin to fathom. Maybe if you would have re-upped and made First Class you would begin to comprehend some of the responsibilities that a Chief has. (or should have.) As a Lead Petty Officer you would begin to assume part of those leadership roles.

I will be the first to admit that there are some sorry excuses for Chief Petty Officers in the service. Perhaps you had more than your fair share where you were stationed. There are some Chiefs that work very hard to take care of business. There are also junior Petty Officers that skate through the duty day doing as little as possible to get by. Others end up having to do their job.

I prefer to think of myself as a "deckplate leader". As a retired Coast Guard Chief Machinery Technician (think Navy Chief Engineman), I prided myself in making sure that my duty section had the proper rate training and always had the latest word from the wardroom. If there was an problem with one of my sailors, personal or job related, I had a handle on it. I was not afraid to take a sailors questions or problems to the division officer and get an answer for him. As a Chief it was my responsibility to know my rate forward and backward so that the engineers in my duty section were trained in rate. My personal belief is that one should be training ones replacement; because sooner or later everyone will either PCS or ETS. Yes, I owned a coffee cup. So did every sailor that ever worked with me. Maybe the Chiefs that you were familiar with sat around and drank coffee all day long; this Chief didn't, he was too busy being a "Deckplate Leader."

Consider replacing the removed section on deckplate leaders, just because there was no discussion on the talk page does not justify it's removal. Had I noticed before you removed it, I would have cited some objections. Your POV as a former junior Petty Officer is no justification for removal.

I do commend you for putting your justifications for removal on the discussion page before actually removing the section. That is always a good idea. Perhaps some research in the phrase 'deckplate leadership' would be in order for myself. If I feel that I have the proper citations, could I assume that you would not have any objections to returning the section on Deckplate leadership to the article? Perhaps a modest rewrite of the section would be in order?

Cheers... Cuprum17 (talk) 17:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to wait so long to respond, I surf Wikipedia often, but don't always log it. I was also an Engineman too, small world.

First off, can we PLEASE avoid using the phrase POV? People saying I am displaying POV for removing a single unsourced line is what got me irritated with wikipedia in the first place. You will NEVER hear me accuse someone of displaying POV when I haven't even heard their side of the story, so I would appreciate you doing the same. Your comment "I see a disgruntled junior Petty Officer that somehow wishes he could have made Chief so that he could sit around an do nothing all day long" is in itself POV, as you are giving me your personal opinion as to what kind of person you think I am. It would be just as easy for me to say you are displaying POV by calling yourself and your fellow chiefs "deckplate leaders", but I will not, and I apoligize for even having to say that much. Nothing gets on my wiki nerves faster than somebody throwing accusations at me and saying I'm displaying POV when they haven't even heard what I have to say yet. I'm not here to vandalise the Chief talk page or anything. I've made a few changed to other military pages, even one page where it has the pay grade of an Ensign listed as O-2, LtJG as O-3, Lt as O-4, ect... This discussion has to do with calling every Chief a "deckplate leader." Let us focus on that.

Second, whether you see a disgruntled E-5 or not is irrelevant. Please leave personal assumptions to yourself. Believe me in my heart of hearts that I never wished to be a Chief. I made E-5, and accepted an early out package (PTS) two months later, and if I had the chance, I would do it again. I can easily say you are likely a retired Chief who thinks he's the most awesome person in the world, but that's a personal attack, so I'm not going to go there either. Respect, patience, and the avoidance of assumptions and accusations of POV is the fastest way to settle an issue on Wikipedia. Sadly, 99% of Wikipedians doesn't understand this, which is why I stopped doing major editing. Every now and then, if I'm surfing Wikipedia and see something that I know isn't right or isn't sourced, I'll bring it up on the talk page. If nobody responds, I delete it. If you want a response from me, please be respectful and patient, or I will likely stop responding. If I am doing or saying anything that offends you, let me know.

The phrase "deckplate leader" did not have a source. I waited quite a while before removing the line, due to nobody responding to my talk page comments, I deleted it. Nobody responding typically means nobody cares or nobody is paying attention. You asked me to post my reasons for removing that line on the talk page, which I'm hoping is simply some kind of typo, because I posted a brand new section and paragraph quite a while before deleting the line. My comments are currently at the bottom of the talk page. As I did spend 5 years in the Navy, I never once heard of a Chief being called a deckplate leader. I rarely saw my Chief on the deckplates with me. It was always an E-5 or an E-6 down there with me. Chiefs are typically administrative workers. I actually have a pretty good idea what Chiefs do. Again, cranked in the Chiefs Mess for 3 months, and still keep in touch with a very good friend who is a Chief now, I knew him back when he was an E-4 (this brings me back to your line about how you "know for a fact that most Navy and Coast Guard Chief Petty Officers have responsibilities that a Petty Officer Second Class can not even begin to fathom". Again, remember not to make assumptions about people until you get to know them...). Perhaps the Coast Guard is a different story? I don't know. Also, is the line really necessary? E-4's are often called "overpaid firemen", and I could almost definitely source that, but is it necessary to put on the PO3 page? Let's just stick with undeniable facts, and leave out any personal opinions, i.e. deckplate leaders, ect... I do see a link on the bottom of the page now where the MCPON talks about deckplate leaders, but really, if the line MUST be replaced, I would be interested in finding a source from somebody other than a Chief. Chiefs are an extremely proud people, and will typically have nothing but good things to say about themselves and other Chiefs. As I still believe Wikipedia to be the most unreliable source of information on the planet, I will not put up much of a fight if you put the line back yourself. Let me ask you, why do you feel the line should be there? Don't worry about sourcing or anything at the moment, just tell me your personal beliefs as to why the "deckplate leadership" line should be replaced, I'm simply curious. As I review my response for posting, I see a few lines that could be interpreted as sarcasm. I assure you that no sarcasm is intended here. Thank you for reading my response. I will be on the lookout for your response and respond as soon as I can. Supergoalie1617 (talk) 19:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Supergoalie...

Thank you for your response to my concerns. I too am guilty of making assumptions about someone I know little about. The term "Deckplate Leadership" to me means that it is the level of leadership that is closest to the sailor that is turning the wrench (i.e. Engineman). The deckplate leader knows what the sailors job is and how to perform that job. He is that sailors immediate supervisor. Contrast that with the Division Officer, more than likely an Ensign or LTjg, who is the Chiefs immediate supervisor. The division officer is there to get his ticket punched so that he has that to display in his OER. He has little knowledge of rhe repair of a Caterpillar diesel generator set and only vague notion of how it works. He is a leader of his division but no practical knowledge of the day to day operation of an Engineering Dept. mechanically speaking. Nor should he. It is not his job to call the shots about what needs to be done about the PMS of a particular generator set. He has to answer to the Skipper if things aren't going right, but will generally leave the mechanics of operation and PMS scheduling to the Chief. That is what I interpret as "Deckplate Leadership".

I will leave you to modify the Chief Petty Officer article as you see fit. I was not able to find anything in writting about "Deckplate Leadership", but I haven't finished my search either. Please take my opinion for what it is and don't be upset by it. Yes, I am proud to have attained the rank of Chief Machinery Technician as I am sure that your buddy was in attaining Chief. I have honestly tried to do my job as a Chief with a view to improving the operations that I supervised. The sailors that I supervised were properly trained, motivated the best I knew how (plenty of atta-boys at Quarters) and knew what a deckplate was. (and in the engineroom, how to pull them up and clean under them!!!) The Division Officer didn't care so long as the work got done and he didn't look bad to the rest of the Wardroom. That is the difference in the Deckplate leader (Chief) and the Division Officer (Ensign). As a Chief and confirmed enlisted sailor I wouldn't have had the Ensign's job for twice the pay. I'm sure the Ensign would not have wanted mine, either.

Again, thank you for your response. You have a very good style of writing and expressing yourself. This is one of the better discussions I have had on Wikipedia. I know that editing on WP is sometimes a pain, but you would do well in article writing.

Thank you also for your service to our Navy and our country. Too many people take the protections that the military give to our way of life for granted. I don't because I have been in your shoes, Sailor. Cheers! Cuprum17 (talk) 21:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)