Sdc870

Bochenski

Hi, thanks, I guess you were just trying to fix things, but the ref is lacking its page number. In the unlikely event that you know it, please add it. If not, don't reply, I'll understand. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:10, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Franklin's electrostatic machine

I had to revert your edits on this article because it added many Harv Errors. Get the Harv Error tool from the help desk and make the edits correctly. The article has passed and has a Good Article status. Please keep it that way. Thanks.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 11:33, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

@Doug Coldwell: Sorry for the errors -- I did not notice them in the "preview". Ok. It should be all right now.

They are there as of 21:45 and just now as I looked. Obviously you didn't get the Harv Error tool from the Help Desk. If you did and installed it, THEN it would show these errors for you - just like it does for me on 2 PCs. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:55, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

I reverted your edits again as they added back in many reference errors. I recommend that you don't edit this article that has a Good Article status until you have installed the Harv Error tool and used it on other articles FIRST to see how to correct these errors.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I have a pretty good idea how references should work. Check out my User Page that shows 18 Good Articles and over 500 Did You Know articles I have done. I have over 11 years experience in creating articles. It turns out 98% of all the articles I have created became a Did You Know article. So I recommend that you practice with the Harv Error tool first with other articles before you edit a Good Article as that article could lose that status because of the many reference errors you enter in. Thanks!!! Cinco de Mayo --Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:59, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

When you look in WorldCat at AC/DC: The Savage Tale of the First Standards War you will see various editions from 2006 to 2013, that includes 2011. Whichever edition you wish to use, then all the references should be written accordingly and you won't have the Harv Errors.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 21:27, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

These are some of the library books I have used to produce Good Articles and DYKs. Many have to do with Benjamin Franklin. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

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Electric current

I have not had a chance to review the specific footnote from the textbook you are citing, but the claim that a wire getting hot doesn't involve heat is a WP:REDFLAG claim. Would you be willing to discuss at Talk:Electric current so we can figure out where the disconnect is? VQuakr (talk) 00:18, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes of course. Have copied the quoted text into Talk:Electric current. "current through the wire" results in the wire getting hot because electrons are banging into the lattice (i.e, increasing the internal energy). It is called "Joule heating" -- but as Serway and Jewett note -- it is not a heat process. Just seeking accuracy. No interest in "crackpot" theories. Sdc870 (talk) 02:05, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Do they define "heat process" or "the process of heat" elsewhere in the textbook? VQuakr (talk) 02:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Not directly. But see the following quotations, from which one could draw reasonable inferences for how they would define a heat process.

one can refer only to the work done on or by a system when some process has occurred in which energy has been transferred to or from the system. Likewise, it makes no sense to talk about the heat of a system—one can refer to heat only when energy has been transferred as a result of a temperature difference. Both heat and work are ways of changing the energy of a system. (p. 606)

The first law of thermodynamics is a special case of the law of conservation of energy that encompasses changes in internal energy and energy transfer by heat and work. It is a law that can be applied to many processes and provides a connection between the microscopic and macroscopic worlds. (p. 618)

The following are examples of processes that do not violate the principle of conservation of energy if they proceed in either direction, but are observed to proceed in only one direction, governed by the second law:
• When two objects at different temperatures are placed in thermal contact with each other, the net transfer of energy by heat is always from the warmer object to the cooler object, never from the cooler to the warmer. 
• ...bouncing rubber ball...
• ...oscillating pendulum...
All these processes are irreversible—that is, they are processes that occur naturally in one direction only. (p. 668)

Sdc870 (talk) 02:46, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm trying to parse what the author is trying to say in the context of Joule heating, but not getting it. "One can refer to heat only when energy has been transferred as a result of a temperature difference" is unambiguously wrong.

In joule heating we have energy in the form of work (electric energy) converted to heat, which either increases the temperature of the wire or, at steady-state conditions, transfers heat energy to the environment. Either way, 100% of the thermodynamic work is converted to heat. Sounds like maybe a case where a textbook isn't an ideal source (pretty common for science articles).

An oscillating pendulum winding down due to friction is irreversible. In an ideal frictionless oscillating pendulum, the oscillation itself is a reversible process. Similarly, an ideal elastic collision is reversible even though no real rubber ball is perfectly elastic. VQuakr (talk) 03:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Suspending the issue of "heat" (and what the "authors" mean) for a moment: Do we agree that Joule heating (in relation to electric current) refers to a current's power dissipation -- where this dissipation occurs because of resistance in the conductor? And if we agree on that, then isn't the issue to explain why there is power dissipation? If we can clarify/agree on those two points, then it will be easier to discuss the role of "heat" Sdc870 (talk) 04:24, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Roughly - Joule heating is proportional to the resistance and proportional to the square of the current. It is the result of a non-zero electrical current flowing across a non-zero resistance. I suppose I don't particularly agree that we must explain "why" at Electric current, because the main article about the subject is Joule heating. The lede sentence at the latter article, "Joule heating, also known as Ohmic heating and resistive heating, is the process by which the passage of an electric current through a conductor produces heat.", is probably an adequate level of coverage for the former. VQuakr (talk) 05:41, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok. I think the matter is clear for me now.
We agree (as you wrote above) that thermodynamic work is done, which results in temperature increase of the conductor, and/or transfer of energy by heat to the environment.
The point of contention (though I am not actually trying to ‟sell” anything here) is how to describe the transfer of energy by work.
Serway and Jewett want to speak about transfer of energy when it is across the boundary of a system. For Joule heating, they would say that the work increases the internal energy of the system (i.e., not across a system boundary), while you want to say that the work is ‟converted to heat” or ‟produces heat”. In both cases, the same transfer of energy is involved, but the difference arises in how to communicate about it.
As I understand Serway and Jewett, they view heat as a method for transferring energy, not a form of storing energy. So they would object to your phrase ‟transfer heat energy” or ‟converted to heat” or ‟produces heat”. This is presumably why they point out that (in their theoretical system) ‟no heat process” is involved in Joule heating, because there is no energy transfer by heat into the conductor. They would prefer to say that the thermodynamic work increases the internal energy of the conductor. (I am not trying to defend their view – just trying to explain it.) Maybe it is not ‟standard”, but it is not crazy. (and as an aside, that the conductor transfers energy by heat is a post facto event in relation to Joule heating.) Sdc870 (talk) 03:15, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

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