Rev.JamesTBurtchaell,csc

i regret that i was required to revert your reversion from Catholic to Roman back to Catholic but you offer no substantive evidence to support your change other than "talking" with some others. Well, i've done more listening than talking when in the seminary and know indisputably the church calls herself "The Catholic Church," not The "Roman" Catholic Church. Ever hear of "The Catholic Encyclopedia"? It is frequently cited in Wikipedia articles referencing religion. Note its title is the CATHOLIC Encyclopedia, NOT the ROMAN Catholic encyclopedia. The Catholic Encyclopedia as a stamp of imprimatur meaning it is regarded by the hierarch as being without error, which extends to its title. i also refer you to this passage in the article on Catholicism:

"McBrien maintains that Eastern Catholic Churches should not come under the heading "Roman Catholic Church": "The Catholic Church itself is a communion of local churches, known as dioceses and patriarchates, of Roman and non-Roman Churches." Thus "to be Catholic—whether Roman/Latin or non-Roman/Latin—is to be in full communion with the Bishop of Rome and as such an integral part of the Communion of Catholic Churches."[8] Other writers, such as Kenneth D. Whitehead, disagree with McBrien by objecting to the use of the term "Roman Catholic Church" even for the Catholic Church of the West. Whitehead has pointed out that this term appears nowhere in the 16 documents of the Second Vatican Council.[9]"

• Footnote 9 refers to Mr. Kenneth D. Whitehead's objection to the term "Roman."

There must be more profitable edits you can do than insisting members of a certain religious denomination submit to your will in calling ourselves something we are not. Thank you.

Old Catholic Church

Before you can remove the Old Catholic Church from the face of the planet, as you seemed to have done in this edit, you should first ask the Old Catholics if that is OK with them, and b. propose that the article on the Old Catholic Church be deleted. Your edits do not help the project; they are disruptive. This has nothing to do with Protestants calling "you" something; it has everything to do with consensus, and your removal of "Old" in that sentence didn't even make grammatical sense--your edits stated that small clusters of Catholics in the Netherlands split off from the Catholic Church and called themselves the Catholic Church. Drmies (talk) 06:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

• To as the "Old" Catholics anything would be to suggest i believe in their existence. The Church makes no distinctions between young Catholics and old Catholics. Again, it appears it is insecure Protestants who want to have us identify ourselves as something other than "Catholic" that they might lay claim to being catholic as well. My objection is not to Protestants calling themselves catholics, but to insisting that we Catholics no do so, or only while using their preferred prefix, "Roman." No amount of Wikipedia popularity polls can change the fact that we do not call ourselves "Roman" anything. Get over it. Try reading the article footnoted in "Catholicism" (#9) by Daniel Whitehead. He is a noted thelogian who does not ask everyboy do raise hands to choose, but explains the church position. Enjoy.
  • I am not sure I understand your first sentence. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the term "Old Catholic" has something to do with age? You know that that is a rather silly statement. The (Roman!) Catholic Church does recognize and has relations with the Old Catholic Church, which you ought to know as well. I've never met a Protestant, by the way, who insisted on calling themselves Catholic; the ones that I know would rather be caught dead than be called Catholic. The one single footnote you keep referring to doesn't mean that much here--there is a consensus on naming conventions in Wikipedia articles. It may come as a surprise to you that Dutch Catholics, for instance, call themselves Roman Catholics, and abbreviate that often as "Roman"--and they do not intend to disrespect themselves when they do so. Again, these matters should be addressed on the various talk pages of the articles you are editing, and I encourage you to do so. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 06:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Catholic church, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Sunray (talk) 07:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

To put a finer point on this: If you were to review the talk pages, you would see that the lead sentence and its supporting note have been discussed for months on the article talk page. The topic has also been the subject of formal mediation. The current wording represents a consensus that balances many different points of view. It is not only protestants who use the term "Roman catholic", but also, in some cases, Catholics themselves, particularly in the context of ecumenical communications, but also, sometimes even in the name of individual churches. If you doubt this, please take the time to read through the discussion in the talk page archives, where abundant evidence has been presented and discussed.

One thing that is important to bear in mind in disputes of this nature is that editorial decisions in this encyclopedia are made by consensus. Thus if you are not convinced after reading the archives, you are encouraged to present your views (supported by reliable sources) on the article's talk page. There are many Catholic scholars among our editors who, though likely tired of this discussion, may nevertheless be willing to discuss the matter with you and consider your points of view. If I may be of assistance in any way, please contact me on my talk page. Sunray (talk) 08:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

talk page instructions

Rev James, when you have a discussion on Wikipedia, just have the conversation on one page. For instance, if I initiated a conversation with you on your talk page, answer me on your talk page, do not come to my talk page to have the discussion because it gets too confusing to follow. You can place a note on my talk page telling me that you've answered me on your talk page to let me know if you like. Also, you need to sign your name using the four tildes as discussed on the welcome page. Please take some time to go through that page and get familiar with how Wikipedia works. If you need any assistance I can help you.

Also, its important to remember that Wikipedia is a fun hobby, it is a good place to encounter different ideas and have discussions about what scholars think of each article. No one really cares what we think because we can't use ourselves as references on Wikipedia, we can only use WP:RS (reliable sources). So the best way to engage people is to put forth the best possible sources that meet WP:reliable source examples. When that doesn't work, there are some really not fun Wikipedia activities like mediation (what we went through with the name issue). I hope you decide to stay and play : ) NancyHeise ^talk 16:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia wants academics

Rev James, if you are the Rev James your username implies, your participation in the Catholic Church article effort would help us tremendously. Can you email me at the link provided on my userpage? Click on my name at the end of this post and it will take you to my userpage. My email link is in the paragraph at the top of the page. Can you spend some time looking over the article and compiling a list of suggestions for us? We would really appreciate it, thanks, NancyHeise ^talk 17:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)