Lathdrinor

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Sockpuppet you encountered before

User_talk:Kwamikagami#Sockpuppet_william_plant. Help me revert this guy's edits, he adding maddive amounts of OR to many articles.Jaabaat (talk) 03:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi

I've noticed you've been changing recent edits by on Oracle bone script, Shang Dynasty, Zhou Dynasty and other articles. I now see that you're right that some of them were WP:UNDUE, especially Jiang Yuan and Houji. I'm also grateful that you still maintained a sizable portion of my contributions. Concerning other reverts however, i believe you removed relevant sourced info, which i intend to hopefully reupload in a less undue manner. On Jiang Yuan you rephrased my contribution into stating that a hypothetical Jiang and Qiang relationship was recently introduced by Christopher I. Beckwith. This theory was actually proposed by Edwin G. Pulleyblank decades ago. I intent to correct this as well. Happy New Year. Krakkos (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi. I am happy to see that you are not intent on pushing Beckwith's rather idiosyncratic POV. I was a bit hasty on a few of the reverts, but in general, I do not feel Beckwith's views represent the scholarly consensus, as I have read a variety of works dealing with these subjects in recent times, none of which take Beckwith at face value. The primary thrust of Beckwith's hypothesis is based on a linguistic argument - he believes that Chinese is either a 'minimally maintained Indo-European language' or an Indo-European creole. This view is nigh universally rejected by other Tibeto-Burmanists and linguists at large. I refer you, for example, to the description of Beckwith under Sino-Tibetan, and also to this review in the Journal of Indo-European Studies: http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES3834web/13Reviews%28431-453%29.pdf, in which it is stated - "I can think of no reputable Indo-European linguist or Sinologist who would call Chinese a product of IE [as Beckwith tries to argue]", pg. 432-433. Peruse the material and wealth of cited sources in Sino-Tibetan and it is quite obvious that Beckwith is not just in the minority, but the *tiny* minority here. Consequently, just as I am not keen on mainlining Beckwith's view on Chinese's linguistic family in Sino-Tibetan and Sinitic, I am not keen on mainlining the view he derives from this linguistic idea in other articles. I have made a few additional changes and will inform you of this response. Lathdrinor (talk) 19:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for linking to the review on Beckwith's book by Karlene Jones-Bley and Marti E. Huld. It put's things in perspective. As you write in your response, the mentioned rejection by Indo-Europeanists and Sinoglists is regarding his theory of Old Chinese being of Indo-European origin. Taking that in consideration i suggest this quote belongs in the article Oracle Bones script, where this theory is already mentioned. Krakkos (talk) 21:03, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

It goes beyond that. The article also criticizes Beckwith's over-use of the chariot burials as evidence. In any case, the bottom line is that even Beckwith himself is not sure whether Indo-Europeans founded the Shang Dynasty. That's why he uses "may even have been responsible" as opposed to "were responsible." Mainlining a mere *speculation* of Beckwith's in the Shang Dynasty article most obviously violates WP:UNDUE. I see only two satisfactory solutions: 1) leave Beckwith's speculation there but qualify it with the fact that it's not generally accepted 2) remove it altogether. I observe that the much respected Encyclopedia Britannica makes no mention of it at all. I do not believe Wikipedia ought to be so biased in favor of Beckwith as to advertise his conjectures. Lathdrinor (talk) 21:10, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

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Shang dynasty's language

Hello Lathdrinor. This concerns the Shang dynasty, Zhou dynasty articles, that is why I want to ask you this. Easy772 added a section called "Language" [1] to the Shang dynasty (and Zhou dynasty) articles about that Shang's language was not Chinese but "a highly-creolized lingua franca based on languages of the Southeast Asian type". Easy772's edit was reverted by Kanguole [2], and Kanguole has started a discussion at Talk:Shang dynasty. But Easy772 has added them back. According to Talk:Oracle_bone_script#Language_of_the_Shang's discussion on the language of Shang, the viewpoint added by Easy772 (according to DeLancey) is not a widely accepted one. What do you think of this "Language" section?--Balthazarduju (talk) 00:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, from the latest discussion on Talk:Shang dynasty, it seems Easy772 wants to go ahead with adding content about the Shang dynasty's Southeast Asian connection (Easy772 said "Before I add the statement, are there any objections?"). But without detailed context in the actual Shang dynasty article, I think it is very odd to just plainly state such material. I also think other participants on that discussion, such as Kanguole, Zanhe, Ogress, Rajmaan, Nishidani, etc. might want to weight in before Easy772 go ahead with adding. There should be a more of consensus.--Balthazarduju (talk) 05:10, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Lathdrinor, you are one of the most knowledgeable people on Wikipedia on matters related to ancient China, that is why I was wondering if I can ask you something about history of China outside of Wikipedia. I was wondering if you can leave an email address for contact (it can just be any, and not your personal one)?--Balthazarduju (talk) 12:42, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Balthazarduju, send it to lathdrinor3@gmail.com. Keep in mind I am not that active, however, and may take a while before responding. Lathdrinor (talk) 00:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Easy772 has opened up a dispute resolution but he did not include everyone involved; you might be interested in commenting as he only included Nishidani, Rajmaan and Kanguole. (I had myself added.) Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Talk:Shang dynasty.23Language discussion Ogress _smash! 21:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Last time I spoke with Easy772, we reached an agreement by which I'd be fine with a statement to the effect of 'the Shang language is widely believed to have been an ancestral form of Sinitic, though there have been occasional proposals for a Southeast Asian affinity.' However, in case he deviates from this description, then I do want to be involved. Lathdrinor (talk) 00:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, he opened a DRN, so you could pop in and literally copypaste that above statement, because based on his conversations and some of the information he's posted under his username off-wiki, I doubt that's what he will agree to. Ogress _smash! 00:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Lathdrinor, I just sent an email to you.--Balthazarduju (talk) 11:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Dispute board Shang dynasty

Hi Lathdrinor, it looks like on the Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Shang_dynasty.23Language, Easy772 has added his last Craniometrics discussion from the Talk:Shang dynasty to the noticeboard about Shang dynasty language. The section in the Dispute resolution noticeboard is called "Talk:Shang dynasty#Language", but Easy772 just decided to add these physical craniometrics discussion onto the noticeboard. Now there is moderated discussion, can you come to the noticeboard? The noticeboard also needs User:Zanhe and several other involved users to comment on the latest development as well.--Balthazarduju (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Shinsi

Deletion of Shinsi has been requested by User:Ogress for being a "a random place-name from Korean mythistory". You have partaken on this subject in the past, and I ask that you partake on the current discussion of its deletion here[3]. Thank you. Cydevil38 (talk) 11:45, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

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