Caucasian Man

August 2020

Hello, I'm William Harris. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Caucasian Shepherd Dog, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. William Harristalk 09:24, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at Caucasian Shepherd Dog, you may be blocked from editing. William Harristalk 22:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank-you for your message, I have relocated it from my Talk page to Talk:Caucasian Shepherd Dog, which is more appropriate for discussing this particular article. I appreciate that you have now provided a reference. William Harristalk 08:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

December 2022

Hello, I'm Cassiopeia. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Ilia Topuria have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. Cassiopeia talk 23:34, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello.

Ilia Topuria does not hold a German citizenship. He is Georgian and has a Spanish citizenship, as well. He was born in Germany because his parents were immigrants at that time, but I don't think that makes him German. What do you think? Caucasian Man (talk) 02:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi Caucasian Man, Thank you for your message. Just check and according to this article, and since Topuria lived in Germany only 7 years prior moved to Georgia, he would not eligible acquire German citizenship. My bad. Crossed out the message above and restored your edit. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 04:10, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

February 2024

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Ilia Topuria. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. Repeated vandalism may result in the loss of editing privileges. Thank you. Cassiopeia talk 08:43, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

Vandalism was done when "Georgian" was removed from his nationality. Even the source next to it says that he is Georgian and represents both countries. He is not Spanish. He's Georgian who resides in Spain and holds the citizenship of both countries. Also, he officially represents Georgia in the UFC (hence the Georgian flag next to his name when he comes out). Please follow the source link and you can read yourself.

We should either put "Georgian and Spanish" or only "Georgian" both in the text and next to the nationality section in the right bar. Caucasian Man (talk) 12:47, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:NATIONALITY only list nationalities where subject has established themselves. And since Spain doesn't allow dual citizenship with Georgia - see source -1 -2 -1, -3, and [1], Spain does not have agreed dual treaty with Georgia, we just list him as Spanish. Cassiopeia talk 01:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

He represents Georgia at UFC:

https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria

I am not sure about the logistics here but I know he and his brother have Georgian citizenship as all their relatives are in Georgia and they often visit our country. Regardless, you should mention that he's Georgian, otherwise it would be extremely unfair and what's more important false. Caucasian Man (talk) 12:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Check out the very source that is indicated for his nationality, the first source: [1] https://www.mmanews.com/news/aljamain-sterling-names-only-featherweight-hed-like-to-avoid

The source mentions: "Topuria, who boasts Spanish and Georgian citizenship, is a close friend of Dvalishvili. "

Hence, please go back and put Georgian & Spanish next to his nationality. I have already put "Georgian" in the first paragraph and I have indicated a very reliable source, the fighter's ESPN profile that clearly states that he represents Georgia (the Georgian flag next to him).

Let me know once you have corrected it. Caucasian Man (talk) 12:41, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:NATIONALITY, you list the nation where the subject has established themselves, Topuria was not notable as a teenager in Georgia. Nswix (talk) 15:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Even your provided "source" that backs up his "Spanish" nationality claims he holds Georgian citizenship as well, and he represents Georgia in the UFC, so that makes him very much Georgian.

As soon as he became a UFC fighter, he started representing Georgia, so Georgia is relevant to his notability and he is recognized as a Georgian fighter by the UFC community:

https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria

Please stop disruptive editing. Caucasian Man (talk) 16:59, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to tell you again. It's not about citizenship. Read MOS:NATIONALITY. You list the nation where the subject has established themselves. He fights out of Spain. Nswix (talk) 17:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Again, you are just biased Spaniard who wants to appropriate other countries achievements.

Merab Dvalisvhili is based in the US but that does not make him American. Ilia Topuria represents Georgia and he is Georgian. End of the story.

That's what MOS:NATIONALITY" says, so you are the one who needs read it:

"Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability"

The fact that Ilia Topuria is Georgian is very relevant to his notability, as he represents Georgia in the UFC(https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria) and the whole fighting community knows that he is Georgian.

So in conclusion, according to MOS:NATIONALITY, he is Georgian. I cannot make this more clear. Your disruptive edits will not be tolerated any more. Do not change Georgian back to Spanish once more or you will be blocked from editing. Caucasian Man (talk) 19:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Ilia Topuria. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Nswix (talk) 17:09, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

You started edit war, not me. I keep putting down reliable sources and you spread misinformation without a source. @Cassiopeia if you are an administrator, you must do something about this. This nonsense cannot go on. Caucasian Man (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

@Caucasian Man and Nswix:, Hi Caucasian, I have replied you on Toporia's talk page and I suggest you to read "Citizenship" discussion on said talk page. Any disagreement, we go to talk page and discuss as that is Wikpedia guidelines. I undersatnd where you coming from but may I reiterated, We put subject as Spanish as per MOS:NATIONALITY. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 22:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

And I explained that as per https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Context we must put the subject as Georgian. Read the guidelines again:

"Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability"

The fact that Ilia Topuria is Georgian is very relevant to his notability, as he officially represents Georgia in the UFC (https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria) and the whole fighting community knows that he is Georgian. He became famous after he started his UFC career, and he's always represented Georgia at the UFC and is recognized as a Georgian fighter.

If you want to argue that he only holds Spanish citizenship, then that needs a valid source. The only "source" the disruptive editor @Nswix provided was the interview with Aljamain Sterling, which is of course not a reliable source but even if we go with it, it is stated in that article that "Topuria, who boasts Spanish and Georgian citizenship, is a close friend of Dvalishvili". That was a quote.

So you cannot use that source to argue that he is Spanish, whereas my source comes from the valid and famous sports journal ESPN. And, like I mentioned, we must put the subject as Georgian according to the wikipedia guidelines. Caucasian Man (talk) 08:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

@Caucasian Man and Nswix:, Caucasian, I am not sure you read the links on subject talk page which I have mentioned to you. There are many sources which the subject mentioned he was Spanish and resides in Spain which that was when he was notable. Moreover, and again, Spain does not have the treaty to with Georgia to have dual citizenship. He being a Georgian, is no longer a citizen but as Georgian ethnicity/bloodline/heritage/background which is not same as a citizen of Georgia. Also it doesnt matter what country/countries/the whole world or universe - it does not meet MOS:NATIONLITY. Cassiopeia talk 10:11, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

You have not read my sources apparently. I read everything you put up and I invalidated them.

Basically you sent me Spanish constitution which is irrelevant here. First, you need to provide a source that claims he is a Spanish citizen, which you failed to do. Your links never mentioned it. So back up with a source please.

Second, I you have not addressed my second major point:

The fact that Ilia Topuria is Georgian is very relevant to his notability, as he officially represents Georgia in the UFC (https://www.espn.com/mma/fighter/_/id/4350812/ilia-topuria) and the whole fighting community knows that he is Georgian. He became famous after he started his UFC career, and he's always represented Georgia at the UFC and is recognized as a Georgian fighter.

Thus, even according to wikipedia nationality guidelines, it must be explicitly stated that he is Georgian. He is not Georgian by background only, he officially represents Georgia at UFC.

Please pay more careful attention to my comments not to miss anything else. Caucasian Man (talk) 10:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Again, it does not matter which country/countries the subject wants to represent, we state the nationality/resident (Spain) when the subject was notable. Cassiopeia talk 10:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

You are not addressing my points. Maybe I will number them so you can see them clearly and address them one-by-one:

1. According to wikipedia guidlines, "neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability". The fact that Topuria is Georgian is very relevant to his notability. He became famous when he started his UFC career where he represented Georgia, not Spain. So Wikipedia guidlines demand his Georgian background to be mentioned.

2. The current source that is being used for his nationality is Aljamain Sterling's interview source which states he holds both Georgian and Spanish citizenship. Thus, you need to provide a source that claims Ilia Topuria is a Spanish citizen and Spanish only. Unless you do that, one might very well argue he is fully Georgian and not Spanish. So please delete that source and provide one that proves he is Spanish citizen only. Caucasian Man (talk) 12:36, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

MOS NATIONALITY - based on the person was notable when he was the citizen or resident of the country which the subject has move to Spain when he was 15/16 and he was not even fight in professional MMA let alone he is notable - see "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident". As per the Spanish govnt doc states Spain has no treaty of dual citizenship from Georgia - if you can find independent, reliable source indicate the subject as of today still have Georgia citizen and no Spain citizenship, then let me know as there are many source indicate he resides in Spain. This is same as "German citizenship - As link provided in the discussion above - according to this article, he is not eligible to acquire German citizenship/national due to he moved to Georgia after staying in Germany only 7 years". Pls do not ignore the citizenship doc from the said government. Where he was born, where he moved to, where he is resides, Georgian parents all can be recorded and sourced in the body texts which is already in the "Background" info but not in the lead section (intro). Cassiopeia talk 03:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

1. I get what you are saying about the wikipedia guidlines and I have read it many times already, but you are not addressing my points for some reason. That's what it says: "neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability". I argue that "unless" is relevant here as he became famous representing his native Georgia at the UFC, and became known as one of the early Georgian fighters along with Merab Dvalishvili, Giga Chikadze, and Roman Dolidze. How do you respond to that?

2. You claim that he is a Spanish citizen only. If you want me to prove he has Georgian citizenship with a source, you must prove his Spanish citizenship with a valid source, as well. The current source is from an article that argues he has both citizenships. Residing in Spain is not enough because he resides in Georgia too during the vacations. SO PLEASE PROVIDE AN INDEPENDENT RELIABEL SOURCE to confirm that, otherwise it will be an unconstructive edit from your side. Caucasian Man (talk) 08:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution noticeboard discussion

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Nswix (talk) 14:53, 16 February 2024 (UTC)