Azalea pomp

Please review your image Albanian Dialects to ensure it is not copyrighted. InvisibleBureaucrat (talk) 04:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome!

Hello, Azalea pomp, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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Farahnaz Pahlavi

You removed my proposed deletion for the Farahnaz Pahlavi article, claiming that she is of enough note to warrant her own article, but you did not explain how she has enough note:

• She is Pahlavi royal family, but this information is already noted on the Mohammad Reza Pahlavi page, see Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi#Wives_and_children.
• She hasn't done anything particularly notable or newsworthy; she has been to college and has a job. This is not special.
• The article lacked citations anyway; who knows if she really went to college and works?

Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's son Reza Cyrus and daughter Leila are actually notable, and so their articles should remain. Reza Cyrus has been a voice against the regime, while Leila was received media coverage for her drug problem and death. I will bring this to a formal deletion debate. Hope to hear from you. The Behnam 16:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Since she is the daughter of a very notable person who was the ruler of a country, she is noteworthy. She was in many magazines in the 1970s so she was at least very noteworthy over 30 years ago. I for one know of her. She is famous to me since she is famous to me there are many others who know of her too. We as members of wikipedia must consider all cultures in the world for noteworthy people as well. Information which can be verified about her can be found on Empress Farah Pahlavi's website.

Gay Icon

Please don't removed sourced content from articles. If you disagree with what is in the article, please discuss it on the talk page before you revert. Jeffpw 08:27, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

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Dental fricative

Wow, I'm impressed! Keep up the good work (unless the information is horribly incorrect, I actually have no way of knowing). Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Since you're taking a lot of attention to these phone pages, I'd like to point out the new consensus on putting tables in these pages. So far I've been the only one who's been implementing it and I haven't gotten very far. I'd look into a consensus for organizing the languages by family. I see the sense in it but I'm not sure how popular it'd be. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You're doing a lot of good work. Although, I hoped that by directing you to the style guidelines that you might help out with the table-making but it's fine if you don't (I'll get around to that eventually), but please don't italicize things written in non-latin scripts. There's a policy against that. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Iranian languages template

Why are you removing this template from articles? --Rayis 13:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

To edit the template, just edit: template:Iranian languages word table. Thanks, --Rayis 13:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Hehe yeah I will try to change it later for it to have a little "edit" link on top! thanks for correcting any wrong info (however please make sure they are indeed reference-based corrections). Regards, --Rayis 13:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

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Judeo-Persian dialects

What exactly do you mean by These three are the only Judeo-Persian dialects, check the Compendium Linguarum Iranicarium? Do you mean that only those 3 dialects are mentioned or you mean Schmit doesn't consider Judeo-Kermani or Judeo-Golpayegani or Judeo-Isfahani as Persian dialects? Jahangard 01:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

You can not consider ethnologue as a reliable linguistic source (it's just a collection of different material with from different sources, and in many cases it doesn't cite its sources). About schmit's book, if it doesn't consider Judeo-Isfahani as a Persian dialect, cite the corresponding page, so we can check it (it's better if you cite the corresponding sentence in the footnote). Jahangard 01:50, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The distinction between northwestern and southwestern Iranian languages is not always clear. That's specially the case for many local dialects in Isfahan Province. About Judeo-Persian, I mostly rely on Khanlari's book on the history of Persian language. I'll check the details tomorrow. Jahangard 02:04, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Voiceless retroflex plosive

I changed back the Hindi exemple because the previous one sounds far more relevent to me since ठीक is truly Hindi while स्लेटी was imported from English language (slaty). BernardM 09:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Occurrence for various sounds

Luckily, we don't need to put examples from all languages that have such sounds. You're doing a great job, by the way. When I get back from my wikibreak I'm going to try to continue converting the consonants into the proper table format. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm not sure how we can see eye-to-eye on this matter. I definitely want to exclude artificial languages (other than Esperanto) since they aren't even spoken. I'd also want to exclude hypothesized and recunstructed languages like proto-indo-european and proto-germanic. A problem with dead languages like latin and sanskrit is that it's not really certain what the sounds were like exactly. Look at the talk page for Latin spelling and pronunciation; there's a debate there about the precise quality of the vowels. On the other hand, more recently dead languages like Ubykh have been formally studied by linguists. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 17:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Those are indeed unusual. I tell you what, I won't make any deletions on the merits of a language's vitality for the time being so you can include them. When I get off my wikibreak this summer then we can discuss it some more. Chances are that by that time your side will gain support and we may be able to tweak the format guidelines to include some dead languages. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:21, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion at Voiceless velar fricative

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Persian ق

It depends on the local accent. In the Tehrani accent (which is used in the Iranian mass media), there is no allophone of [q] for ق (and there is no distinction in pronouncing ق and غ). But in eastern accents (in Tajikistan, and afghanistan), [q] is the main (or maybe the only) allophone for ق. Also, in the local accents in the east and south of Iran (for example Kermani accent), [q] is still the main allophone for ق (and its pronounciation is quite different from غ which is pronounced as [ɣ] or [ʁ]). Jahangard 01:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[quːrbɒɣe] (frog) is a better example (because it's not an Arabic loanword). Jahangard 04:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

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Chechen language

Can you show me the souce that says Chechen /r/ is a trill and not a tap? I've found the tap here.Al-Bargit 14:42, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If "erd" in kurdish and zazaki are arabic, are then the "erde" in german language and "earth" in english also arabic?

If "erd" in kurdish and zazaki are arabic, are then the "erde" in german language and "earth" in english also arabic? --Meyman 11:56, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

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Mohammad Reza Pahlavi article

Greetings. If you have the time, please have a look at this [2]. Since you have been contributing to the article in the past, I wonder if you have any comments. Shervink 15:45, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm back

I'm back from my wikibreak (I have been for a while, actually). I was thinking that something that might be helpful for the phone pages that you've so generously contributed to is some sort of inline citation (such as Harvard citation) so that people can tell which examples are sourced and which aren't as well as the page numbers, etc. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

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Sources for "Image:Albanian_Dialects_Map2.PNG"

Here. 85.75.247.189 (talk) 01:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

khosh and gorosne

what was in old iranian and middle iranian the word "khosh / xosh / xwesh" (sweet/fine) and "gorosne" (hungry)? please give me also the language names as old persian, avesta, parthian, pahlawi. thanks --Meyman (talk) 13:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

do you know what is "ash" in persian? and whats the root of xwelî in kurdish for "ash" is? --Meyman (talk) 11:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

and do you know the root of persian gerdiden (to change), kurdish guherin (to change)? thanks --Meyman (talk) 12:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Edits by User:DJ1AM

Hi,

Could you please take a look at the edits by User:DJ1AM? Most of the pronunciations that he/she puts in the Persian-related articles are wrong. Alefbe (talk) 19:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, /r/ in English

Hi Azalea,

Yes, we follow established conventions, and using IPA /r/ for any rhotic, whether uvular trill or alveolar approximant, is a well established convention. It's simply a matter of broad vs. narrow transcription. The IPA Handbook itself uses /c/ for a post-alveolar affricate, for example. (Check under Sindhi.) One problem with the IPA on Wikipedia is its unfamiliarity with many readers, so the more familiar symbols we use, the better. Also, in some English dialects /r/ is a flap, not an approximant, so you could argue that /ɹ/ would also be sloppy. What we are saying with /r/ is simply "rhotic"; the exact realization is irrelevant for our purposes.

Anyway, the place to bring this up is MoS pronunciation, or probably better, Help:IPA for English, not on individual articles. kwami (talk) 06:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

But Azalea, it is IPA usage. I'm trying to remember if Ladefoged used /r/ in A Course in Phonetics. I think he did, but even if not, it's so common as to practically be standard. Just as the IPA Handbook uses /c/ for Sindhi /tɕ/ because it's 'tradition', so people use /r/ for English /ɹ/ when there's no reason to be more precise. That doesn't mean it's not IPA. And as the IPA does not define English, we need to decide which IPA convention to follow. Should the vowel of goat be /o/, /oː/, /oʊ/, /əʊ/, /ɔʊ/, /ou/, /oʷ/, or /ow/? There is no one right answer. The Handbook uses /o/, even though it's clearly a diphthong and does not even contain an [o]! We chose /oʊ/, which is a compromise between precision and orthography. In the Japanese section, they use /ɽ/ for r, even though it's not [ɽ], and /u/ for u, even though it's not [u]. (Okay, the IPA doesn't have symbols for those sounds, so I guess they could be exceptions.) Just about the only time anyone uses /ɹ/ for English ar is when they're contrasting it with other languages. kwami (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and for Hausa they use /j’/ for /ʔʲ/, and in Arabic, traditional /ʕ/ for /ʔˤ/. kwami (talk) 16:34, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with kwami. It may not be perfect but few things in life are. IPA in most cases tends to be fairly broad and English only really has one /r/ phoneme, even though it might allow a host of allophones. Hence you might as well pick the most basic and easily accessible symbol from the IPA set. Being picky about the symbols used only makes sense where they're separate phonemes; in my case (when I add Scottish Gaelic pronunciation) I have to distinguish [rˠ ɾ ɾʲ lˠ̪ l ʎ n̪ˠ n ɲ] but surely you're not suggesting that we should start distinguishing [lˠ] and [l] in English because some varieties have dark l? If someone wants to be sure, they'll go and look up the English phonology page anyway. Akerbeltz (talk) 16:51, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Khotanese language

Let's see Talk:Saka language if you've spare time. :) -✉ Hello World! 03:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Richard Simmons -- Y'at?

YES. He certainly does at times, though he's obviously mellowed out a good bit, is quite rhotic, etc. (Then again, perhaps the Brothers of the Sacred Heart at Cor Jesu drilled the r into him.) He even uses such New Orleanian formalisms as "you all" rather than "y'all". They had a great video of him at my former high school; he attended the opening of the new campus and led everyone, including our overweight and elderly principal, in an exercise extravaganza. L (talk) 05:32, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

My father and sister (strong Y'ats) will argue that New Yorkers sound like Y'ats, not the other way around. ;) I think that there are a few differences -- Y'ats of a certain generation will use intervocalic voicing more often than those from NY -- but it's really a tossup. I should note that I spent far too many of my summers upriver as a child, so they'd say that I'm not Y'at enough to judge! L (talk) 08:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

You map on Albanian dialects

Hello. Your map on the Albanian dialects is very good, but I believe there are some things wrong. As a Lab, the first thing I noticed was that the area where Laberisht is suggested as being spoken does not go that far inland. According to Robert Elsie's Albanian language site, Lab is spoken "south of the Vjosa to Saranda". Also, the Cham area does not stretch as far north as is suggested. Elsie states that Cham dialectal area includes "the southern tip of Albania and [stretches] into Greece". This description seems to fit this map of Chameria. I hope my suggestions are correct. Best wishes. :D --Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I just noticed you are not the author of this map. I saw that you edited the map last and if you don't mind doing it again, it would be appreciated. :)--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but no sources at hand for Kruja-Mat:( I may look for them but AFAIK they are pretty much the same while Kruja being the entry point for Mat. Aigest (talk) 07:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks, the only problem I see for now, is the fact that we need to make clear the map does not imply that Albanian is the only or the majority language spoken in there, especially in Greece and Italy. Thanks once again.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:45, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

map

thanks, i didnt notice it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Pashtun

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

Do you mean the Pashtun Latin alphabet? No, I'm not familiar with it. But it's not claiming to be a transliteration, but rather a full Latin-based orthography for Pashtun. It was added by an anon. IP on Dec 7. I'm getting a few hits online about plans to establish an official Latin ancillary alphabet for Pashtun, but I can't tell if this is one of the proposals. kwami (talk) 02:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed that too. I don't think it's a transliteration at all. kwami (talk) 06:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

My edits to the number page

Yeah, the left and right half-rings are always better than apostrophes, grave accents or single quotation marks. Haven't looked at the site again now, but rings are officially used in the transliteration of that alphabet.

I'm not sure, though, what you mean by "different" alphabet about the Belarusian. It's called Łacynka and I always understood it as the official way of writing Belarusian in the Latin alphabet. I can't find how "official" this alphabet is, but I've seen it frequently. See also Romanization of Belarusian. Now is it better to use a standard romanization/transliteration or Łacynka, which might be much better known and perhaps more suitable (in my opinion)?

Last thing: Upper Sorbian. My dictionary (Słownik Hornjoserbsko-němski / Wörterbuch Obersorbisch-deutsch) only lists the spelling without the accent on the o. The book is from 1990, so I don't know if there has any spelling reform taken place in the meantime. But maybe it's better to list something that both books have, yep. In case of more doubt, I could also ask a friend of mine, who's a native speaker. — N-true (talk) 00:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Pashto

Hi. I added zhəba as example which yields jəba in northeast in Peshawar, Swat etc. Massagetae (talk) 06:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there difference between Dzadrani and Khosti or are they same?

Dzadraann (ځدراڼ) live in Khost and Paktia and the language of most of them seems to be same as Khosti, although I am not sure. In Khosti /dz/ yields /ts/ only in few words, eg. dzəm (I go) > tsə, but in other words /dz/ is preserved, eg. wradz (day) > wredz and pindzə (5) > pindzə. In Wazirwola also, these words are tsə, wredz, pindzə, although in Miranshah Wazirwola "dz" tends to be replaced by /z/. The numbers 2, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10 are dwa, dre, uwə, aatə, nə, las in the south and north; and dwaa, drey, owə, otə, nə, laas in Waziristan, Khost, Banu and Tirah/Afridi. In dialects of Waziristan, Banu, Khost and Tirah, unlike standard Pashto, 20 is frequently used as a base number besides 10. Drey shəla (three 20s) is used for shpetə (60), tsalwer shəla (four 20s) for atya (80), shpezh/shpeg shəla (6 20s) for 120, owə shəla (7 20s) for 140, otə shəla (8 20s) for 160. Massagetae (talk) 12:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Like many "Eastern dialects", Khost has /k'h/ and /g/ (my source is Herbert Penzl). Massagetae (talk) 08:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

ʂ in Pashto dialects and Dialects listing

I seem to find that there are 4 standard types. The Southern group (Kandahar, Helmand, Farah, Zabul, Pashin, Herat and Oruzgan) has retroflex ss and zz. They change to sh and zh in Quetta and northern Balochistan, Bannu and Waziristan - in the second group. The Third group in Ghilzai, Wardak, Ghazni and Dzadraann has k'h and g'h. The 4th Northern group has kh and g, and it has most number of speakers in Peshawar, Kabul, northern Paktia, Nangarhar, Laghman, Kunarr, Baghlan, Kunduz, Momand, Bajawarr, Charsada, Swat, Dir etc. Waneci is in its own group.

Also in dialects of Waziristan, Khost, Bannu, Dzadran, there is a change of vowel system. Standard Pashto aa, o, u are replaced by o, e, i. In Afridi and Parra Chinar dialects this tendency is carried through less radically, and only Pashto aa is replaced by o, but Pashto o, u are preserved.

In some Pamiri languages also we find o for ordinary aa. In Wakhi, Munji and Ishkashmi often retroflex ss is found where southern Pashto has ss, showing very close affinity with Southern Pashto. In Shughni and Sarikoli however ss is replaced by kh, and they have more affinity with Northern Pashto. The transitional sounds k'h and g'h are found in Ghilzai, Ghazni, Dzadran and Wardak. Massagetae (talk) 12:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

So I seem to find there are 10 dialects:

1. Southern/Abdali (Kandahar, Helmand, Farah, Zabul, Pshin, northern Badghis, Herat, Nimroz and Oruzgan), has retroflex /ss/
2. Southeastern (Quetta, Zhob, Ziarat), has /sh/
3. Marwat, has /sh/. /ts/ yields ch (tsh) and /dz/ yields j (dzh). lexicon similar to Abdali, but under influence of Wazir-Bannu-Karak dialects
4. Wazir-Bannu-Karak, has /sh/, and a change of vowel system and lexicon; /dz/ sometimes changes to /ts/
5. Khost-Dzadraann has /k'h/, and a similar change of vowel system and lexicon; /dz/ sometimes changes to /ts/
6. Afridi-Bangash-Tori-Orakzai, has /kh/, and a partial change of vowel system (only "a" to "aa" and "aa" to "o") and a partial change of lexicon; /dz/ sometimes changes to /ts/
7. Ghilzai/central (Ghazni, Wardak), has /k'h/. Its vowel system and lexicon is same as Abdali. Also spoken by most Kuchi people in other parts of Afghanistan
8. Northern (Kabul, northern Paktia, Nangarhar, Laghman, Kunarr, Baghlan, Kunduz, Bajawarr, Mohmand, southern Maymana), has /kh/
9. Northeastern/Yusufzai (Peshawar, Swat, Shangla, Dir, Malakand, Charsada, Sawabi, Mardan), has /kh/; /ts/ changes to /s/
10. Waneci It surely looks like a differerent language, and have sound changes like Pashto L to Y (also found in Munji?). Also it has aspirates like Khotanese.

Wazir-Bannu-Karak and Khost-Dzadraann are not mutually intelligibile with standard literary Pashto, although they are mutually intelligible among themselves. Marwat and Afridi-Bangash-Tori-Orakzai also have some words in common with Wazir-Banu and Khost-Dzadraann dialects that are not found in standard Pashto. All other dialects, except for Waneci, have almost a same lexicon. MassaGetae(talk) 17:57, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

PS: In some sources, Pashtuns of Kunduz, Maymana and parts of Balkh are shown as Ghilzai, but they actually speak northern Pashto. They pronounce Ghilzai /k'h/ as /kh/, and pronounce sta ("exist") as shta and so (meaining "it became") as sho. (Ghilzai/Abdali "s" sometimes yields Kabul/Yusufzai "sh" which is an important sound change.) MassaGetae(talk) 07:05, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

In addition, /dz/ can change to /z/ in most dialects and /ts/ can change to /s/ in some dialects, although in literary Pashto both the consonants are preserved. MassaGetae(talk) 19:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Koroshi language

Dear Azalea pomp, Thank you. Koroshi numbers are pronounced exactly like in Persian dialects. It seems the effect of the languages spoken around it. Comparing to standard Persian there are only two differences: 3 is "sa" and and 4 is "chaar". Maybe it is waste of space on the page to add numerals as they are the same as Persian, but if you think it is informative, please tell me, I'll do it. There are more improvements and expansions that can be done and I'll hopefully do it in future.--Raayen (talk) 19:11, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

In Koroshi it is "yek. It many Iranian languages that is something similar. "yak" is also used. However e.g. in Iran, most people drop "k" when speaking. Also e.g.:

Number	Writing	speaking
1	yek/yak	ye
4	chaahaar	chaar
7	haft	haf
8	hasht	hash
9	noh	no
10	dah	da

In Persian what is written generally differs from what is spoken. Actually no Persian-speaker (any dialect it would be) speaks the same way s/he writes. What should be written is standard but not what or the way you should say it. e.g. "man" ('I' in English) could be "ma", "me" or "mo", and that would still be Persian. However in TV and Radio, newsmen read the same way as written. That is the case of most formal speaking too, e.g. in ceremonies.--Raayen (talk) 23:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I think like English. I am not expert but it SEEMS to me more than English. E.g the formal form of "Let's go home" is "biyâ beravim be xâne", but nobody speaks like that at all. Instead, they say "biyâ berim xune", "bio bereym xune", OR "bi berim xana xena", etc.--Raayen (talk) 01:22, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Dialect chart

Yes, I noticed I forgot it, but I hadn`t enaugh time to add the intermediate dialect. I`ll do it later. Thanks.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Iranian languages map

Hi Azalea, I just saw the new map in Iranian languages (File:Iranian Languages New Map8.png). It looks good, but it has some major mistakes in the eastern parts. The distribution of Pashto, for example, is totally exaggerated and contradicts official numbers from Afghanistan. The area in and around Kabul, even Panjsher (one of the major centers of Afghanistan's Persian-speaking Tajiks), is shown as Pashto-speaking which is totally wrong. A language map of Afghanistan (File:Map_of_Languages_in_Afghanistan,_by_district.svg) was recently created by User:Lokal Profil and is based on official numbers from Afghanistan (for example this source). Please update your map. Thank you. Take care. Tajik (talk) 00:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Just in case you do not know: your map is based on an earlier map by de:Benutzer:Postmann Michael, a banned user of the German Wikipedia. He was banned for POV-pushing and creating factually wrong maps. Recently, one of his sockpuppets was banned: de:Benutzer:AlexanderK.. This is actually a good reason to either remove the map or to update it. Tajik (talk) 00:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi Azalea. I think you are misunderstanding something. The map "File:Map_of_Languages_in_Afghanistan,_by_district.svg" is not only based on the one source which I have given (it's accuracy is not disputed at all, and the fact that it was created during the communist rule does not mean that it is inaccurate), but on recent official numbers from Afghanistan: (http://www.aims.org.af/sroot.aspx?seckeyo=52). These are the most recent and most accurate numbers for each district. The map you propose is not only made by a banned user notorious for creating wrong maps, but is also factually wrong. All I can tell you is that the map is totally wrong regarding Afghanistan. Tajik (talk) 00:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

That's not true. The maps you show are not more reliable than official governmental data. First of all, because they are only shown on a website and were not created by this or that educational institution. Your map also contradicts the data found in the Encyclopaedia Iranica, the most authoritative scholastic work in this case. See this map from Encyclopaedia Iranica. Tajik (talk) 00:30, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is that a better map? The other map was created with hard work where-as your map contains too much errors to list. For example Central dialects are not spoken in the city of Qom or North Khorasan has a large Kurdish speaking area.. The other map was fa and if you are going to replace it, you should first put it up for discussion on why it is better.. it sure is much less accurate--Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

See here also: [3], note the city of Qazvin is not Turkic speaking, the villages are. Or for example you have lessened the Kurdish area of Khorasan or etc. Of course the map I just showed has a problem too, it shows Bandar Abbas as Arabic speaking where-as it is minority. Unfortunately there is no good map of Iran, but the one from the FA article was relatively okay. I would not use random websites as sources.. Here is another one from Mehrdad Izady [[4]]. I think you need to work on the map before replacing the fa one. For example look at Qazvin or the Kurdish areas of Khorasan in your map, it is with the wrong color in your map.. specially Qazvin is a Persian speaking city. You have missed out Tati languages which is shown by the Izady map:[[5]]. The Izady map is actually the most accurate --Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:29, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the Southern Tati is a geographic term, since the other Tati (the one in the Caucasus) is geographically north of it. But you are right, Southern Tati is almost akin to Talyshi where-as Northern Tati is a Persian dialect. But still your map did not have this Tati area and it was incorrect with the city of Qazvin..--Nepaheshgar (talk) 04:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian language

I have seen your contribution on Albanian language and I wonder if you are interested on edits about Illyrian language. If so please feel free to make any comment on the article I have edited about Illyrian language classification, it is based on other authors and the sources are alvaiable in the internet. Regards Aigest (talk) 07:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC) Thank you for your appriciation. I will continue to make some other edits on the article since there were many claims unsourced or based on single or outdated sources. Thank you ones more Aigest (talk) 08:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added another subarticle on Pan Illyrian theory here (which I think to separate later and leave only important parts of it there). Please let me know your suggestions. Bests Aigest (talk) 08:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Latin element in Albanian language

I have proposed a new section on the article about the Albanian language (see the related talk page). What do you think? Regards Aigest (talk) 08:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I have already collected some evidences and created part of the article if you don't mind I will post it here (but you can delete it later if you wish:)

Regarding the latin loanwords, the first one who noticed the earlier influence on the albanian language was Jerney Kopitar ( 1829, 254) who claimed that the latin loanwords in Albanian language had the pronunciation of the time of August. This scholar presented cases qiqer < cicer, qytet < civitas, peshk < piscis, shëngjetë < sagitta etc when we can see a Latin c- (=k-) or /g-/ followed by a fron vowel were maintained in the Albanian language. This was approved later by Meyer - Lьbke-ja (: 1914, 32) and Meyer. Another scholar interested in this problem was Çabej. This scholar has dedicated a special work (shih Çabej: 1974, 13-51), where he noticed among other things the indices of the archaic Latin element in the Albanian language. Among them are: a) Evolution au > a which is noticed in the oldest latin element of the Albanian language like aurum > ar, gaudium > gas, laurus > lar etc, while in the other loanwords this has not happened in later borrowings like causa > kafshë, laud - > lavd etc. b) evolution o > e, just in the inherited IE elements of the Albanian language (ne<nos, tetë < +oct- etj.) which is noticed in the oldiest Latin loanwords pomum > pemë, hora > herë etc. c) the drop of the syllable between two vowels like (just like in the inherited IE element ), for ex: cubitus > kut, medicus > mjek, padul - > pyll etc, while in latter Latin borrowings this is not noticed anymore paganus > i pëganë/i pëgërë, plaga > plagë etc. d) Evolution of /tj-/, /dj-/, /kj-/ përkatësisht në /s-/, /z-/, /q-/, like vitius > ves, ratio > (a)rësye, radius > rreze, facies > faqe, socius > shoq etc. The antic influence of Latin to Albanian language is proved by two other facts. The presence in Albanian language of a considerable numbers of latin loanwords, which can not be found in other Roman languages or in Romanian language. Latin origin of the mos ancient church terminology in Albanian language. Regarding the first fact, Mihaescu proved that in albanian language have survived 85 words of latin origin which can not be founded in any other Roman Language. Some of them are bujk < bubulcus, mërrajë < hibernalia, shelqëror < sarcinarius, tërfurk < trifurcus, qift < accipiter, mushkonjë < +musconea, kulshedër < chersydrus, shpnetkë/shpretkë < +spleneticum, shullг/shullë < solanum etc Mihaescu (: 1966/1, 30 v.) .page 30. Also he mentiones 151 albanian words of latin origin which can not be found in Romanian language. Some of them are mik < amicus, anmik/armik < inimicus, bekoj < benedicere, qelq < calix (calicis), kështjellë < castellum, qind < centum, gjel < gallus, gjymtyrë < iunctЇra, mjek < medicus, rjetë < rete, shërbej < servire, shpërej < sperare, vullnet < voluntas (voluntatis) etc Mihaescu (: 1966/1, 21) . Even the earliest latin loanwords of church terminology in Albanian language present such phonetical changes that testify their ancient borrowing. Some of them are lter < altare, engjëll < angelus, bekoj < benedicere, i krishtenë/i krishterë < christianus, kryq < crux (crucis), klishë/kishë < ecclesia, ipeshkv < episcopus, ungjill < evangelium, mallkoj < maledicere, meshë < missa munëg/murg < monacus, i pëganë/i pëgërë < paganus etc.

This is just a part of the article on the Latin element in the Albanian language I have the references for this part and I am working for other parts of the article. What do you think of this draft? Aigest (talk) 09:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

For a list of inherited IE words in Albanian language we can use [6]. What do you think? Aigest (talk) 09:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

And I have the complete work of Demiraj 1998 with Latin element (words names) and Illyrian nameplaces (cities, mountains, rivers) in which he demonstrates their phonetical changes through the Albanian language. Though there is a short summary in English on that book, I am trying to translate the ALbanian part which is very technical and fully detailed.Aigest (talk) 10:02, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Persian

I was wondering if you know Persian or other Iranian languages. Alefbe (talk) 07:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Albanian inherited lexicon

I think that link you posted is very very useful but I don't know if we can say it is reliable since it is based on query database. It is very difficult to find published works on this topic online. One is this [7] but I don't know if it has used all the references example at first sight grua (woman) is not represented. Also the work of Orel is unreliable [8]. I have found this [9] which is very useful but in German:( (although the technical part is mostly clear). The published works of Demiraj are the most accurate source and I will try to find them. Also Eqerem ♀abej work is being published and he was the highest authority among Albanian scholars and well known globally. Anyway until I can find them we can use the above mentioned sources (including the link you have found and this one [10]. As for the article title we can use Albanian inherited IE vocabolary or smth like that in order not to be mistaken with the actual Albanian dictionary which has may loanwords. Bests Aigest (talk) 09:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added a part regarding Proto-Indo-European and Albanian Phonological Correspondences with Mallory as a reference. Could you please check it out. Please let me know your feedback on that. Regards Aigest (talk) 13:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you think that for s->h it is a better example to use Alb. heq/helq "to carry off" < *selko (cf lat. sulcus) than hie skihe>hije? I have no doubt it is correct but that /sk/ so close (skihe) might look confusing. What do you think? Regards Aigest (talk) 07:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually there are some who maintain that h>s in Albanian other example hyll/yll < sūl (cf. Lat. sol) although s > h is somewhat disputed. As for the sk > h that must very old or not a general rule since there are Scodra>shkodra, scup>shkup, scamnus>shkamb/shkëmb (cliff) pescis>peshk (fish) etc which are attested in Illyrian-Republican rome period (where Latin /c/ was a /k/). Regards Aigest (talk) 06:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep. That was the reason that I proposed heq/helq "to carry off" < *selko (cf lat. sulcus) where is a clear s>h not a sk>h since we were talking about /s/ in the table and not the diphthongs like /sk/. What do you think? Regards Aigest (talk) 07:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should create another table. The existing one is too long already:). Aigest (talk) 07:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yep but I am concerned also about the changes in groups like palatals, velars, labiovelars, laryngeals, etc (since they clarify much about the albanian classification and language rules). Can we group them in the same table or we need different ones? Aigest (talk) 07:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes there is the case of /k/ and /g/ followed by /r/ an /l/ mjekra<smokru(beard chin) quaj(call,name)old Alb kluaj<klohi or Gru/grua (woman)<g´erh2 etc the labiovelars /kw gw gwh/ become /s/ and /z/respectively before a front vowel /i/ or /e/. In other phonetic environments they became k and g respectively behaving like pure velars eg pese "five" < penkwe, sa "how much" < kwo se "what" < kwod, zjarm "fire" < gherma etc ujk < ulk "wolf" darke "supper" cf gr dorko djeg <dhegwho etc

Although I find difficult to imagine a table like that. I have no idea for the moment:) how to integrate all that in a single table. Any idea?:) Aigest (talk) 07:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Hm, if it is not done well I am afraid it will become confusing, although I don't like it very much the actual form at least gives an idea of the development of PIE phonology. What do you think of putting close to it in the right area other tables with clusters and groupings? Aigest (talk) 08:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok I'll try, crossed fingers:) Aigest (talk) 08:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Congrats for the editing really good stuff. Thanks ;) Aigest (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I don't know much about wiki editing:) can these tables be at the same level, I mean in the right and the left at the same area not going one after anther? Once again congrats Aigest (talk) 06:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, as I have said before the Orel work is controversial [11] and has been criticized and Demiraj is preferred. Also it is interesting that Pedersen (1900. p.340) defined the rules for Albanian gutturals (Demiraj approves them also as I remember but I have to check it again) such as for eg

the palatals /*ḱ *ǵ *ǵh/ produced respectively /th/ and /dh/ or /d/. According to Pedersen they changed at an early stage to /ć, dź/ then to /ś, ź/ and finally to /th, dh/ examples

dore "hand" < ghera, dhander/dhender "son-in-law" < ghent (cf lith zentas) lidh(tie) <lig madh (big)<magh or mogh etc

I think that this and other rules are interesting if they could be included in the article. What do you think? Bests Aigest (talk) 07:17, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The first one to noticed it in Albanian it was Hamp 1960, than Olberg 1969 than Kortlandt 1980 here [12](Balto-Slavic, Albanian etc) but also Kortlandt version of 2008 responding to another scholar here [13] and Demiraj 1988, 1996. I found it interesting I would recommend Kortlandt reading if you have time of course:) because it includes also Indo-Iranian also Aigest (talk) 08:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Borujerdi dialect and other dialects in that area

They have a mid front rounded vowel. It mostly corresponds to the diphthong "aw/ow" ([oʊ]) in the standard Persian (it also corresponds to combinations like "evi", "avi" in the standard Persian). Alefbe (talk) 23:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

For other dialects and accents in that area, there are some samples of Araki and Hamadani on the Web, but those that I saw were either too influenced by the Tehrani accent and almost useless (like this one for Araki) or more like a parody of those dialects, by the new generation ( like [14] or [15] for Hamadani). So they are not credible enough to be relied on as original samples of those dialects (unlike that Borujerdi blog which was original and had enough credibility). Alefbe (talk) 23:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

For Senejani (which is close to Araki), [16] and [17] are not that bad (although not as reliable as the Borujerdi samples). The problem is that for the newer generation (who have watched TV, since childhood), the accent is influenced by the Tehrani accent and their pronunciation of the vowels is not exactly the same as the original accent of the older generation. Alefbe (talk) 00:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Atlas Narodov Mira

Do you have access to "Atlas Narodov Mira" (published in 1964)? Izady's map is based on that (with some deliberate distortions related to Kurdish). It should be a good source for Iran and other countries. Alefbe (talk) 09:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

About the Semnani sub-group, the map does not differentiat between different sub-gloups of the central groop (it refers to all of them as Raji). Alefbe (talk) 19:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: Fars dialects

I've uploaded a scan of the relevant page for numbers of Fars dialects, here. This is from page 144 of Ganjineye guyeššenâsiye Fârs, first volume I believe. However, a listing of numbers doesn't really give a very clear picture of linguistic similarities/differences. But use the image as you see fit. Cheers, –jonsafari (talk) 00:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Tajiki

What's your opinion about the title. Alefbe (talk) 21:22, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Aimak

Aimak people speak a Persian dialect very similar to Dari. But just Aimak has borrowed more Turkic and Mongol words, and less Pashto words than Dari has. Massagetae (talk) 03:16, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Dari_(Eastern_Persian)#Proposed_split

What do you think? Alefbe (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Proto-Indo-European numerals

Hi Azalea pomp! Could you tell me why you removed some of the {{fact}} tags in Proto-Indo-European numerals without adding sources? Thanks --ἀνυπόδητος (talk) 11:45, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the source! --ἀνυπόδητος (talk) 07:36, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Albanian PIE

I was wondering where did you get the çandër etymology?:) It was the first time for me to hear that Albanian word while my Albanian-English vocabulary brings an English shore-çandër(?!):)

I am interested about *p-f change also while all the sources I have maintain *p-p. Is there any work I can read? Regards Aigest (talk) 19:36, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe is the analogy of latin Lupta>lufta (war) but that's for the pt cluster not for the PIE *p only. While for Orel etymologies ....let's say I don't see him as reliable (others say the same also) Aigest (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Proto-Afro-Asiatic

I think the above-mentioned article is a train wreck and I am going to be working on it. I noticed you on the talkpage.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Nilo-Saharan

Actually, Azalea, it's my impression that NS is accepted, at least as a working hypothesis, by the majority of linguists, including linguists working on various NS families (except famously Songhai), though of course few would claim it's been demonstrated. kwami (talk) 06:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly controversial among some, but I never got the impression it was a minority opinion. The branches are a separate issue: Austronesianists do not all agree on the branches of Austronesian, and that's as well-demonstrated a language family as they come. (Just recently the Reef Island languages were reassigned from "Papuan" to AN, and there are languages which are still debated.) kwami (talk) 07:04, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree it's a working proposal, as is Altaic, but neither is disputed the way, say, Khoisan is, which is generally rejected by Khoisanists. Most larger families in New Guinea, Australia, and the Americas are similarly debatable, but not rejected outright by the people working on them. kwami (talk) 07:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, just that it's not a problem with only NS.

AFAIK, Reefs has now been satisfactorily demonstrated to be AN through regular sound correspondences. kwami (talk) 07:29, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Chinese/Japanese claims/theories

Please do not lured by Chinese/Japanese rightwingers trying to distort Korean culture, heritage and history. In fact they have been benefiting from taking credits from ancient Korea for long time. China/Japan is well-known for distorting history.--Korsentry 04:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

You obviously don't have language knowledge of Korean, Japanese, Tungus, Turkic, Mongol, and Ainu. They might not be related at origin, but they certainly have common traits and words that more closely related than any other languages. First, their grammar is very similar in structure, Japanese, Korean and Mongolian have identical grammar. I'm not sure about Turkic language. --Korsentry 05:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

And I wonder who is right-wing? Can you provide verifiable, reliable evidence, KoreanSentry? QUOTE: "You obviously don't have language knowledge" - and you do? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 06:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Who do you think you are accusing me being 'don't have language knowledge', I'm not an linguistic experts but at least I have Korean/Japanese language knowledge. Two languages are closely related in terms of sound and grammar, pure native words/sounds/grammars are also related to Mongolian, Tungus etc.. If you don't know anything about native Korean/Japanese then don't question me again. --Korsentry 06:41, 15 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by KoreanSentry (talk • contribs)

Please note, Korean and Japanese languages have identical grammar not similar grammar.--Korsentry 04:18, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It would be interesting to hear your view on that.Alexikoua (talk) 22:27, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi. I've posted my comments about the map that points Mycenaean sites in Epirus in talk:Epirus (region)Alexikoua (talk) 14:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the map can be further improved: for example it needs a date (propably it deals with ca. 3rd cent. B.C.), or some non-Epirus tribes schould be further checked.Alexikoua (talk) 22:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I've uploaded a new version of the Mycenaean sites in Epirus. Actually, Tandy's map has some minor errors in the rivers, but the sites are 99% in the right positions now.Alexikoua (talk) 21:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Pashto language

Hi Azalea pomp, in the Pashto language article, could a section about "History" be added? The current version has nothing about the origin of Pashto. And could you kindly tell whether it will be better to create a separate article for Pashto dialects? Also, I think if a map of all Pashto dialects, or a map of all Pashto-Pamiri (Eastern Iranian) languages is added, it will be great for the article. Thanks, MassaGetae(talk) 15:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Albanian language umlaut

I want to thank you very much for your continuous dedication to Albanian language article, very much indeed. My actual work does not allow me to dedicate much time to wiki but I keep visiting articles sometimes. I have a question related to reflexes of *ō to a and e (eg *ghórdhos - "enclosure" gardh "fence" *ghórdhoi - "enclosures" gjerdh "fences") AFAIK in Albanian *ō always generated a while /a-e/ is an umlaut in Albanian for forming the plural of the names, (eg dash - desh 'ram', rreth - rrathë 'circle', njëri - njerëz 'person', cjap-cjep 'he-goat', thes - thasë 'bag', vëlla - vëllezër 'brother', kulaç-kuleç 'bun' gëthep-gëthapë 'tine, hook', vllah-vlleh 'vlach' krap-krep'carp' djalë - djem 'boy' gardh - gjerdhe 'enclosure', etc) as you see from the examples above even words recently entered in Albanian language (eg vlach propably formed in middle ages) show this umlaut, so it is not a change from *ō to e, but sometimes from *ō-a-e (old words) while sometimes from a-e simply(new ones). Anyway this is a link [18] very useful for you regarding Albanian language. My best regards and respects Aigest (talk) 09:06, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was you:). Anyway if you need other sources on this topic i am very glad to help you. In the mean time I am changing that a little bit. Bests Aigest (talk) 11:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

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