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User:Giano/Once upon a time in 2014.

< User:Giano


This is a copy of an Arbitration case which closed on 21 February 2014. The original can/could be found here [1]

Kevin Gorman—Eric Corbett (original title: Kevin Gorman attacking Eric Corbett)

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Initiated by Giano (talk · contribs · email) at 19.16 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Involved parties

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Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Giano

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On 9 Feb 2014 an anon posted on J Wales's talk [2] beginning a thread "A day of kindness, fairness and understanding." Its apparent purpose was to infer that a nameless editor who had committed suicide had been let down by Wikipedia, and that the community should show greater understanding to those with mental health problems. Other editors, feeling they knew the editor being referred to, treated the thread as a tribute:[3][4][5][6] But given that the thread was ostensibly to discuss the treatment and problem of potentially suicidal editors, it was inevitable that editors would share their own experiences.

  • Cullen328 was first to do so, mentioning his own experiences.[7]
  • Later, Eric Corbett made his first comment.[8] Corbett also disclosed personal circumstances supporting his view.
  • Cullen328 responded civilly: [9]
  • Corbett replied, expanding on his circumstances.[10]
  • At this point, Kevin Gorman first interjected.[11] Misunderstanding the thread, he claimed "Inappropriate posts are unacceptable", but there was nothing "inappropriate."
  • Following Gorman's comment, the debate continued.[12]
  • Gorman interjected again, using Corbett's former user name.[13].
  • Gorman then posted a template on Corbett's talk page, [14] (05:58, 9 February 2014) accusing him of violating BLP and threatening to block him, despite no deceased Wikipedian having been mentioned.
  • A heated but not offensive debate continued on J Wales' talk.[15]
  • Gorman collapsed the thread,[16] and threatened Corbett with an Arbcom Enforcement BLP ban.
  • Gorman is reverted by Corbett, and a brief edit war followed.[17]

At no time during the thread did Corbett make any disrespectful comment regarding any deceased Wikipedian; neither was any deceased Wikipedian referred to by name.

  • Following Gorman's initial templating regarding BLP and threats of a block, unsurprising a heated debate followed on Corbett's talk,[18] during which Gorman alleged that Corbett was gravedancing and lacked "common decency",[19] a charge he subsequently repeated.[20] These allegations are completely unacceptable and false.
  • Gorman further claimed Corbett was mocking the deceased.[21]
  • Gorman also insulted Corbett, displaying how badly he had misunderstood the thread.[22]

Gorman has been asked repeatedly to retract and apologise but has not only refused,[23] he has compounded the insults by launching into a smear campaign on Corbett's reputation to save his own:

  • [24] "it's a bit hilarious that anyone thinks an apology to Eric is warranted"
  • [25] "...given his conduct any apology...would be insincere. I think his behavior is significantly problematic."
  • [26] continuing to falsely threaten Corbett against policy.
  • Gorman attempted to save face and justify his behaviour by claiming a long block of Corbett would be justified, and that he could produce 50 diffs none of which, even if found, would have had any bearing on the matter in hand.[27]
  • Gorman's next post [28] suggests a hidden agenda, and that he was more interested in blocking Corbett for perceived past misdemeanours.

Gorman has made particularly nasty insults and threats to sanction against policy, refused to back down until pushed,[29] and an overdue apology to Corbett is clearly not forthcoming because he feels Corbett has erred previously:[30] [31][32] [33] This is unacceptable behaviour in an admin, for which he should be officially admonished or de-adminned.  Giano  21:02, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Responding to points made below

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Justice cannot be denied because sections of society feel the subject matter is distasteful; and it's ridiculous to suggest that the improvement of safety aspects can't be discussed because there have already been casualties. This case is one of the simplest the Arbcom can be asked to decide upon and rests upon 7 easy questions.

  • 1: Did Corbett begin the thread?
  • 2: Did Corbett have a right to comment in that thread?
  • 3: Did Corbett mention any late Wikipedian by name or inference?
  • 4: Were his comments and shared experiences pertinent to the discussion on changing Wikipedia's views on mental health?
  • 5: Did Gorman fully understand the intention of the thread?
  • 6: Was Corbett deliberately dancing on the grave on a deceased Wikipedian [34], mocking the dead [35] and is he lacking common decency [36]?
  • 7: Can fairness and justice be denied because an editor may have erred in the past[37]?

Question No 7 is obviously the most crucial. If guilty as alleged, the Arbcom should impose the severest retribution on Corbett. If he's innocent, then the unrepentant Admin [38] concerned needs to be very severely reprimanded. This is not something that can be swept away. These allegations are there in black and white and are extremely serious and damaging to an editor's reputation here and in real life. They need to be addressed. It is also vital that it does not appear that former employees and those connected with WMF receive special consideration and immunity from the civility policy and rules governing others; especially, when claiming to have "secret evidence" to justify their possible slanders and libels. Eric Corbett is as entitled to the protection of Wikipedia's laws and policies as anyone else; allowing outlaws to be attacked by the privileged is an antiquated, obsolete concept. Fairness demands that this case be accepted to either clear Corbett's name or condemn him.  Giano  14:52, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Tryptofish

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I gave evidence in the last ArbCom case that dealt with some of this (the Civility case), and I'm inclined to think that you should decline the request this time. As for Kevin, he appeared to believe in good faith that he was acting to treat a recently deceased editor with respect, and his subsequent statements indicate a very low likelihood that he will violate our policies for administrators. As for Eric, he made some comments about his own personal history that I would argue give him reason to deserve a lot of leeway with respect to his statements here. There will doubtless be opportunities for ArbCom to better define overstepping by administrators, and there will doubtless be opportunities for ArbCom to try again to figure out where the community stands on civility, but this case will prove to be too muddled to accomplish either of those goals. If there is any lesson to be learned from the loss of that editor, it's that life is short, and we all have better things to do than to get bogged down in the complaints raised here. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:57, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Leaky Caldron

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There was a WP:BDP violation, but it was not Eric's contribution. The attempt to disguise the identity of the dead Wikipedian was fatuous. It took me no more than 2 minutes using readily available resources to locate his user page. From that point on the soul searching screed was immediately an infringement of WP:BDP requiring BLP policy to be extended where material is "contentious or questionable material about the dead that has implications for their living relatives and friends, such as in the case of a possible suicide..." Eric's blunt response was almost word for word my reaction when I first read it. Eric was honest enough to put in writing. Why do I think it was questionable? Just over 4 years ago I lost a close family member in tragic and unexpected circumstances. He was not, thank God, a contributor here. Had he been, and if I had stumbled across some half-baked eulogy from an editor unwilling to identify themselves, using my family's grief as a means of advancing a pet cause on the founder's page, I would be absolutely horrified. The thread should have been removed as soon as the oblique references to "John" left it open to anyone to reach into history and identify the user, his family details and the tragic circumstances of his struggles though life.

As for Eric, he reacted to the traducement by Kevin and others with typical vigour.

As for Kevin, his was a mistake of omission. He should have recognised the OP as the problem, not Eric's post. However, I am extremely concerned about the subsequent attempt to introduce mystery and imagination into his subsequent explanations using various references to WMF and Arbcom. This has the appearance of subterfuge and requires urgent clarification.

As for the founder's page, he really needs to get a grip. His open door policy is allowing editors to rack up hundreds of edits on subjects which should rightfully be discussed in more appropriate venues such as WP:ANI, WP:CENT, WP:BLP/N, WP:VPT and WP:VPPOL to name a few. Not one meaningful initiative or policy directive has emerged from there and it looks more and more like a place where a handful of regulars can grandstand.

Finally, for 2014 Arbcom. Judging by the Fp@SR case below, you are clearly uninterested in addressing Admin. civility issues, so please do not hound Eric on that score.

@Northern Antarctica. So despite not studying the full circumstances, you conclude that Eric had a legitimate point and that Kevin's handling of the situation was not ideal. But then, also, "that this situation further demonstrates Eric's failure to respectfully tolerate dissenting positions and that maybe the committee should consider whether it wants to take decisive action now or wind up here again at some point down the road." So despite this case being brought for alleged Admin. behaviour, you want to turn this around onto the editor? Bad news, this Arbcom. doesn't appear to be the slightest bit interested in civility issues. Antipathy toward civility was even made clear in at least one of the AC Election candidate's statements and is fully reflected in their handling of the FS@SR case, below, where so many blind eyes have been turned it makes one wonder if the case has actually been studied beyond a cursory glance. Eric made a blunt and completely accurate comment about a thread that should have been removed for precisely the same reason that, it was alleged, Eric had breached, namely WP:BDP. Seeking to turn this into another Eric witch hunt is highly dubious. Leaky Caldron 11:05, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Andy Dingley

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In the initial comment, I don't know which was more offensive: Eric's comments on the suicide, or his implication that having had a suicide in his own family gave him carte blanche to act in that way. Either way, I considered it way out of line, even for Eric. In that context, Kevin Gorman's actions were entirely reasonable and per policy. Hindsight might change just what Kevin might have done in detail, but the principle stays the same: Eric's actions were offensive enough to justify this level of admin intervention – There is thus simply no case to answer.

As a side issue, I don't know what Giano's behaviour since has achieved other than to make him look ridiculous. At least Eric has had thee sense to stay mostly quiet afterwards. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Kevin Gorman

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I do not see much point in accepting a case here; I see very little good that would come out of it for anyone involved. I took action that was not perfectly thought out to remove a thread that needed to be removed, I've explicitly acknowledged that I could have handled the situation in a significantly better fashion and made significant mistakes in handling it, and have already stated that in similar circumstances in the future I would just directly email arbcom, the office, or more likely both, rather than trying to address it myself. Eric's behavior was problematic but nothing would come out of an arbcom case about it here. Giano's behavior has been problematic but nothing would come out of an arbcom case about it here. As a tangential comment: I have referred to Eric as Malleus in conversations because, frankly, I think Malleus is a really neat sounding name, and because it eliminates the possibility of confusion given the number of other Wikimedia movement people named Eric - if he asked me not to do so, I would of course not do so. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:47, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

@Salvio: I think that the number of people, including a number of arbs and former arbs, who have said pretty directly 'don't do that again' serves as an admonishment. Wikipedia is occasionally accused of having a short institutional memory, but I would be pretty surprised if this situation isn't remembered in any discussion that comes up involving my handling of similar issues in the future. I realized quite some time ago that I handled this situation poorly, and certainly would not handle it in the same way in the future. Some of the comments I've gotten, both publicly and privately, will have a more significant impact on how I handle future situations than a form admonishment would. I'm not trying to say I shouldn't necessarily receive one - rather that I already have received (more than) one. If there's desire for the formality of one carried out via motion, I would suggest per NYB that there are good reasons to handle it expeditiously given the nature of the case. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:33, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Since it's been brought up in multiple places, I feel like I should point out that I'm not a former WMF employee. Also: my internal wifi adapter on my main laptop has died, so any replies from me here or edits elsewhere will be either pre-typed and posted when my wifi adapter is momentarily less cranky, or when I'm on another machine. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:33, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
@HJ and similar: I've expressed in multiple places that I see what was wrong with my actions here, would not repeat them, and in a similar situation would send it directly to arbcom, emergency, or both. I may have only been an admin here for a month, but I've been around for quite a bit longer than that. Some of your comments seem to suggest that I'm somehow incapable of learning, at least without formal arbcom action. I feel like I'm pretty decent at learning from past mistakes, have demonstrated this in the past, and also don't entirely understand why anyone would think that a formal admonishment from arbcom would have a greater effect at changing my behavior in similar situations in the past than the number of people I greatly respect (including multiple arbitrators) pointing out in the last week that I severely mishandled the situation. As I said previously, if arbcom ends up formally admonishing me, well then arbcom ends up formally admonishing me. What will effect my behavior the most in the future won't be that: it will have been the flood of comments I've received, both on and offwiki, from people I respect pointing out a good number of the flaws in my actions. I'd also point out to HJ in particular that if you examine my past record I've never tried to be the 'civility police.' Even here, I haven't even suggested sanctions against the abusive messages I've received, because sanctioning any of them would be (a)silly, (b) ineffective, and (c) unnecessary. As a sidenote, still only able to post on-wiki when I'm not on my primary machine. Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:09, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
  • @IHTS: I don't have the time to dig for diffs currently (like I said, I'm not able to use my main machine currently,) but conversations with Snowolf, Drmies, Floquenbeam, Writkeeper, Dennis Brown, and a whole host of other people (some of whom I am disinclined to name given the attacks off-wiki conversations appear to result in) have certainly left quite an impact on me. And yes, some of these conversations have occurred on-wiki, some off-wiki, and some both. Regarding my previous statement about arbcom: I would still be very surprised if arbcom told me that the material I sent them was appropriate to discuss on-wiki. Beyond that, I've already said in multiple places that I'd direct a similar situation in the future to arbcom or the office, and I've already apologized for the way I handled the situation. As a metanote: this is likely my last comment here unless this somehow gets accepted as a full case - going to unwatchlist the page, since I assume I'll be notified of a case or motion. I also find it remarkable how for an arbcom case that is supposed to be focused on the behavior of at least three people, people seem to be awfully eager to cherrypick diffs of my behavior. Kevin Gorman (talk) 02:09, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Cube Lurker

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"I find laughable the idea that anyone should apologize to Eric over a perceived personal attack."[39]

It's frankly disgusting that someone could make a statement like this and retain advanced permissions.--Cube lurker (talk) 01:13, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Volunteer Marek

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This all started with the fact that a person killed himself. Some people said some stuff. Some other people replied. Some of the things said were pretty stupid. Some of the replies were also dumb. And now this turned into a situation where people... I can't say this without sounding callous... are turning the occurrence of this person's death into a hook to hang their wiki-politics on. Taking a step back, who really cares? All of you, everyone who's a party to this, really just needs to shut the fuck up and walk away and think about the fact that there's some way more important things in life than fighting out petty Wikipedia grudges. And using - in whatever way! - a tragedy to pursue these is particularly disgusting.

It does not escape me that just by commenting here I somehow become a part of this... twisted circus. Why does the Wikipedia environment cause you to end up in seriously fucked up situations like that? If you don't say anything, you're implicitly acquiescing and condoning this insanity. If you say something, you become part of it.

Close it. Blank it. I'd say something like "trout'em" but that would trivialize the situation. I dunno, give everyone who posted here and who was involved in this sorry fracas a month long "decency block", and you can include me in that, just for commenting on it. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:39, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by AndyTheGrump

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Wikipedia is an online encyclopaedia, not a social club. This has f-all to do with article content. People said things they shouldn't? Get over it, and get back to things that matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Beyond My Ken

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There's no case here. Eric Corbett's brutally blunt comments were wildly inappropriate for the thread they appeared in, he should have kept his mouth shut. Kevin Gorman admits he mishandled his response, but his actions were not so bad that Eric Corbett is due an apology. Gorman's comment "I find laughable the idea that anyone should apologize to Eric over a perceived personal attack." is precisely correct, given Corbett's general mode of behavior, although it would have been better if Gorman had not said what most everyone knows anyway. And Giano is just mixing things up, as usual, and has no standing to file this request - Eric Corbett is smart enough and bold enough to request a case if he wants one.

Much ado about nothing, and no basis for an ArbCom case. Trouts and minnows are all that's required here. I urge the committee to reject the request. BMK (talk) 02:01, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, Giano's chosen title for the request is misleading and grammatically incorrect. "Attacking" means an ongoing activity, which is not the case. It should have been past tense "Kevin Gorman attack on Eric Corbett". Giano's no idiot, so I assume this was a deliberate choice. BMK (talk) 02:18, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
The case name has been changed to be more neutral, so, assuming it holds, my comment above is not longer relevant. BMK (talk) 23:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
@Ihardlythinkso: I hardly think so. BMK (talk) 18:35, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Montanabw

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I would suggest the committee consider authorizing the oversighting/ permanentl removal of the entire thread at Jimbo's page that gave rise to this kerfuffle, then do the same for all references in Gorman's talk page and Corbett's talk page to the same. Possibly add all diffs by anyone regarding this incident, including the diffs posted by Giano above. Someone died, let's just show some respect and clean up this mess. Montanabw(talk) 06:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Ihardlythinkso

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Eric added a much-needed counter-view to the thread topic that developed on Jimbo's Talk. Backed up by his own life example, he contended that WP is not the place to advertise serious personal RL issues and expect community support. And that the idea developing in that thread that tacitly supported templated advertising of same, and encouraging community involvement and support for editors who've indicated they have mental health issues, is a misguided direction for WP to take. Eric contended that serious personal issues like mental health s/b left to RL medical professionals, and to expect or encourage WP editors to extend personal support in view of same is a bad idea. For expressing his view Eric was subjected to a series of aggressive and baseless admonishments, accusations, insults, warnings, threats, and personal attacks by Kevin Gorman.

(I'll stop here. I have much more text detailing specific behaviors and my objections to them. But aren't those obvious?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:14, 18 February 2014 (UTC) For consideration. Gorman, a new admin, tells publicly what he thinks of a fundamental Wikipedia pillar [40]:

even if it were an inappropriate description of his behavior [accusing Eric of "grave dancing" a suicide victim], I find laughable the idea that anyone should apologize to Eric over a perceived personal attack. [...] Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

(This goes without even admonishment? Personal attacks are now just fine against selected WP editors?! What does the future hold for this newbie admin, who right out of the box flaunts fundamental WP pillar with public and utter arrogance?!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 23:51, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

This is evidence "Kevin has learned something"?!:

  • Kevin hasn't backed off his claim Eric was grave dancing the suicide victim (stating he "doesn't have enough information to know" whether Eric gravedanced or not).
  • Kevin doesn't understand the personal offense his "grave dancing" allegation is, calling it an "inflammatory word choice", and challenging another editor's value system who Kevin feels should understand that being called "fucking idiot" is a way more serious personal attack.
  • Kevin still misunderstands the original IP thread (final statement says "it needed to be killed").
  • Kevin admits to no wrong: he says he "fucked up" but hasn't specifically identified how; he crossed out his BLP warning template text, but never specified why he felt he was in error on policy; he says he'd "do things differently next time" then lists two communications he'd send that have no bearing on what he sees as emergency need to "kill the thread".
  • Kevin has alluded numerous times to "secret information" he will reveal only to admins and "editors he trusts" that justifies or explains his decisions and actions. Then nothing.
  • Kevin keeps congratulatory barnstars concerning his actions in this incident on his User talk, having deleted or archived anything contrary.

Ihardlythinkso (talk) 22:41, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Compare Kevin's statement below that it is pointless for Arbcom to issue admonishment over his actions, to his statement here [41]:

shutting down the thread at the point that I did was absolutely appropriate, and if arbcom publicly disagrees with me once I shoot them a more comprehensive summary, I would be more than willing to apologize and not repeat similar actions in the future. That said, they sure as fuck won't. [...] Kevin Gorman (talk) 16:47, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

@Drmargi: "His comments were unnecessary, contributing nothing to the discussion, but precipitating everything that followed." Oh really? Eric added an important counter-view with reason for conviction. He advocated what he did to keep WP more sensible and safer (editors who've indicated mental health issues should seek medical help; it's not a time or place for WP editors to "get involved"). Kevin chose the actions and statements he did; your attempt to attribute responsibility for Kevin's followups to Eric is absurd. (Kevin is an adult, right!? An RfA-vetted admin. He's not a 5-yr. old and unaccountable for his decisions and statements.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
@Northern Antartica: "it could be argued that this situation further demonstrates Eric's failure to respectfully tolerate dissenting positions. I have my doubts on if his retirement will last, and maybe the committee should consider whether it wants to take decisive action now or wind up here again at some point down the road." How is it that Eric showed "intolerance for dissenting positions"? When questioned in that thread he elaborated and clarified. (I think you are making that up.) Your last sentence is ... what? (Suggesting this case filed by Giano against Kevin Gorman's conduct, should result in some sort of serious sanction against Eric Corbett!? Oh that's rich! Can you pass that joint?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:16, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
@BMK: "Gorman's comment 'I find laughable the idea that anyone should apologize to Eric over a perceived personal attack.' is precisely correct, given Corbett's general mode of behavior, although it would have been better if Gorman had not said what most everyone knows anyway." Why don't you speak for your fucking self, Ken!? (Are you trying to win "most insulting uncivil EP editor 2014" award!? You win.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
@Resolute: "this was ultimately a minor fracas that escalated because Eric dishes it out a hell of a lot better than he takes it." More blame-the-victim stuff?! Eric is not permitted to offer his gut view on the Jimbo Talk-thread topic that developed, without receiving this kind of false blame?! (And you say Giano is appealing to manipulative argument?!) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:32, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
@Resolute: I read it. Gorman was the aggressor, Eric was responding defensively. Gorman made all kinds of unwarranted admonishments, insults, threats and demands. To accuse Eric of vulgarity when facing that onslaught including an untrue and vile accusation of "grave dancing", is blaming the victim (blaming the bear after poking). At one point Eric tried to reason and explain to Kevin: "You have completely missed the point Kevin. I found the tenor of that thread to be deeply offensive, but for a different reason than your shallow interpretation of events. What I took objection to was the notion that the suicide of a Wikipedian was in some way considered to be more important than the suicides of non-Wikipedians, and that as a result we all needed to be trained as psychiatric nurses." Giano was hiding nothing by not quoting the back-and-forths from that lengthy thread. The "grave dancing" allegation by Kevin was apparently the last straw and Eric took it to ANI. To characterize that as "escalating" or "sheer hypocrisy" is pure bollucks. You want to blame Eric if he breathes air. And blame him for polluting the environment when he exhales CO2. Not buying it. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 04:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
@AndyTheGrump: "This has f-all to do with article content." You're right, Andy. And neither do CIV and NPA policies, do they? (Hey here's a thought -- scrap them both. Kevin stated it was "weird" when he noted that he agreed with Eric on one thing: that policy must apply to all editors equally. It was an important cognition. By scrapping CIV and NPA, there can no longer be uneven enforcement. And that is the basis of Eric's complaint, and this case. The formerly contentious, unending debate ends. What say you!?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 11:41, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
@Kevin Gorman: "What will effect my behavior the most in the future [...] will have been the flood of comments I've received, both on and offwiki, from people I respect pointing out a good number of the flaws in my actions." Since you say there are a "flood" of comments onwiki from "people you respect" that have pointed out your fawed actions, it s/b very easy for you to produce diffs as examples of that. Let's see you do that. (Oh, did you delete or archive them? Or were those from "people [you] didn't respect"?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:41, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Georgewilliamherbert

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This is an extremely painful case on several levels. I believe that, despite sanity having somewhat restored itself, Arbcom should accept.
Reason one for acceptance is apparent consequence - though I have not contacted Eric offwiki, it appears that this caused his retirement. Even if we accept purest of motives and sincerest of regret by the admin in question, driving a high profile editor away from the site for anything less than obvious glaring violations of policy deserves scrutiny. Though there is some dispute, there is significant challenge to the idea that there was in fact any violation of policy or community trust on Eric's behalf.
Reason two is that civility matters. It is somewhat jarring that a case of this nature ultimately surfaces with Eric the victim rather than the other way around, but here we are. We here have an excellent case demonstrating that failure to treat other editors in a coegial fashion and respect their different backgrounds and ways of contributing materially damaged the discussion and editors' participation. This is exactly and precisely why civility matters. This is not a case about bad words or bad links; an editor assumed absolutely the worst about anothers participation and reacted abusively.
I am sympathetic that the admin in question understands they erred and are remorseful. I do not want to add insult to injury and drive them into retirement or exile. But this goes beyond expressions of remorse, a trout, or even a minor adminoshment by motion. This was a big one, we all screwed it up. It needs tobe taken seriously.
Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 10:16, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Jehochman

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Editor squabbles that don't involve damage to articles are not a priority for arbitration, in general. It's easy enough to just tell the editors involved to leave each other be, or else you'll issue bans with a summary motion. The concerning issue in this case is abuse by an admin. If it is a one time thing brought on by heated emotions, it can be admonished and forgiven. If there is a pattern of past incidents of a similar nature, that would be worrisome. Giano, can you bring forth evidence of past issues with the admin in question? Jehochman Talk 13:35, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

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I too, am disturbed by folks using a real-life (i.e. important) death as a coattrack for Eric and Wikipedia's civility policy (lack thereof), round 42. If the Wales talk page squabble was all there was, I'd concur with let's move on. The fly in the ointment is:

For a newbie admin to jump headlong into a chronic problem arbcom 2012 wasn't able to put a dent in (Civility enforcement) indicates either a serious lack of judgement or that they were looking for an excuse to go after Eric. NE Ent 15:24, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Re "too few in the community are prepared to make allowances for his being a neophyte administrator,": editors should figure out how Wikipedia works before Rfa, not after. NE Ent 10:09, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Kevin Gorman what possibly makes you think this is "supposed to be about three people"? From the initial filing the primary focus of this case has been your poor use of admin tools, apparent subterfuge, and failure to accept criticism for them in a civil and timely manner. Even in "accepting" criticism KG continues to attempt to divert attention from his behavior to others -- admins don't accept that WP:NOTTHEM from blocked users, why should the community accept it from admins, who are supposed to be held to a higher standard of conduct? NE Ent 03:35, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Resolute

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With respect to Georgewilliamherbert's views, this was ultimately a minor fracas that escalated because Eric dishes it out a hell of a lot better than he takes it. There is no great need to delve deep into what was, at worst, a good-faith overreaction by both Eric and Kevin. Eric's decision to leave in a huff was his own, and I have little doubt that he will be back. Giano's attempts to frame this around false dichotomies and appeals to emotion are uncompelling to me. I recommend the committee decline this. Resolute 17:25, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

@Ihardlythinkso - There is a difference between blaming the victim, and playing the victim. Looking at Eric's behaviour on his own talk page in the 'heated debate' that Giano mentions above shows that Eric was freely dishing out vulgar attacks. (Unsurprisingly, Giano chose not to post those, or even make mention in his case request because an honest presentation of Eric's behaviour would have undermined his WP:POINT.) Eric could have simply told Kevin that Kevin's interpretation was wrong and left it at that. Instead, Eric went on the attack - like he always does when people don't kowtow to him. For Eric to then run to ANI and demand a block for personal attacks after that was sheer hypocrisy. Resolute 23:31, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Hahc21

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I originally intended to not comment about this, but I think I should express my views. First, this request should be declined for several reasons:

  1. There is nothing to be done about it. Kevin has not done anything allarming enough to warrant a desysop. We all know that nothing good can come out from a heated situation involving Eric Corbett, and we all know that Eric is not going to get banned for what he did, and it will be useless to hand out admonishments that won't work (I'm sorry but that's the truth).
  2. Accepting a case, as brad says, would only give unnecessary heat to a situation that should have never reached its current level in the first place. There is nothing valuable to come out from a case regarding what happened.
  3. Kevin already recognized that he made some mistakes in how he handled the situation, and that should be enough.

I admit that I am, in principle, aligned with what Kevin though and acted upon. Such situations are extremely delicate, and one must think three times what one is writing before hitting the save button. As somebody said somewhere, real life experiences do not give you leeway to make such comments on delicate matters on Wikipedia and walk away with it. I fully agree with such a statement. — ΛΧΣ21 Call me Hahc21 18:41, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Carrite

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New administrator pokes badger with stick, badger responds as badgers will do. People yell at new administrator for poking badger, Society For Prevention of Badgers cheers him. Badger shambles off into the bushes, new administrator is smug. Bad feelings all around. Did new administrator learn anything valuable? Doubtful. Is there an ArbCom case here? No. Decline this. Carrite (talk) 19:58, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by DeCausa

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Per Resolute and Carrite. Usual Wikipedia fare of poking, abrasiveness, petty squabble, poor/rash judgment and huffs ... signifying nothing. Except to the hangers on. The fact that an admin and a prolific editor behave (in either case) arguably badly is one thing. But what is really reprehensible, and what really sours Wikipedia is the way others (both sides) stoke up what is a minor incident. That's what really needs to be fixed here. Raising this to an Arbcom issue is a case in point. DeCausa (talk) 21:24, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Northern Antarctica

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While I haven't fully studied the circumstances of this specific case (and don't intend to), I think Eric had a legitimate point in his original comment that Kevin took exception to. I certainly don't think that Kevin's handling of the situation was ideal, but he has admitted as much. Therefore, I don't see a need to further hammer him over it. On the other hand, it could be argued that this situation further demonstrates Eric's failure to respectfully tolerate dissenting positions. I have my doubts on if his retirement will last, and maybe the committee should consider whether it wants to take decisive action now or wind up here again at some point down the road. Northern Antarctica (talk) 00:29, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Re Ihardlythinkso: Eric was named as one of the parties to this case, so I don't see why there is any problem with the notion that he could face scrutiny. It gets tiresome watching you erupt at those who dare to speak out against Eric. Northern Antarctica (talk) 15:34, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Re Leaky caldron: Turning the scrutiny on Eric does not make this a witch hunt. He's one of the parties in this proposed case. Ir's not like he's being dragged into something he wasn't involved in. Northern Antarctica (talk) 15:34, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Re Writegeist: Nobody took Eric down. He voluntarily chose to retire. Northern Antarctica (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Re Writegeist: You said: "His methods are corrupt: for the rotten cop, the ends (taking your man down) justify the means (anything goes). That’s the behaviour we’ve seen from Kevin Gorman." So, what does that mean if it doesn't mean that Kevin Gorman took Eric Corbett down? Oh, by the way, it's interesting that you want to take this one incident and make broad generalizations about Kevin, yet you are unhappy with the people who are looking at Eric's established track record. Northern Antarctica (talk) 21:39, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Drmargi

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This is a disgraceful situation all around. Was Kevin heavy-handed in his handling of this? Of course he was, which he has acknowledged, repeatedly. Has Kevin learned from this? I think so. Sadly, too few in the community are prepared to make allowances for his being a neophyte administrator, and are quick to judge, but slow to forgive. More to the point, what was Eric's excuse? This is yet another example of his penchant for firing with no concern for the consequences of his actions, then refusing to accept responsibility for what he says or does. His comments were unnecessary, contributing nothing to the discussion, but precipitating everything that followed. Moreover, the diva exit is the latest of many; he'll be back. We all know that. This needs to be declined with all haste; let's not continue to let Giano et.al stir the pot needlessly, creating more unnecessary strife. --Drmargi (talk) 01:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq, with all due respect, nothing in my comments require correction. Perhaps the tools include a special set of glasses for reading subtext and editor intentions that I lack, but I simply don't see the intentionality you attribute to Kevin. Moreover, I find your "I am right and you are wrong" stance troubling, particularly coming from an admin, from whom I would expect at least an attempt at being objective as well as open to the opinions of others. I'd suggested that your level of involvement with Eric has colored your perspectives to the point you can't view Kevin's actions without bias. On the other hand, I have no skin in this game. I have had no involvement with any of the three major players here (Giano being #3), and can view this situation more objectively as a result. There is plenty of blame to go around in this sad situation and two editors who both made mistakes. The difference is in how they handled them: Kevin recognized his errors, and Eric laid down an ultimatum, then flounced off for the umpteenth time, followed by the usual round of frenzied activity designed to lure him back. Ultimata always end badly, and he made the choice to issue one in full knowledge of what the consequences would likely be. As for Kevin, he needs support and mentorship, not all this sound and fury signifying nothing, designed to avenge Eric. Finding a better approach is how you keep things like this from happening again, not exacting a pound of flesh. --Drmargi (talk) 18:35, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Johnuniq

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I had intended keeping out of this, but the comment from Drmargi needs correction. Being "slow to forgive" has nothing to do with it because Kevin has not shown any acknowledgment of being in error—Kevin's "I could have handled the situation in a significantly better fashion" is a string of weasel words to say the minimum required to make the fuss go away. That non-acknowledgment is likely to mean that next time Kevin would employ different tactics to achieve his objective, but that's not the point. What about some consideration (per WP:ADMINACCT) of the underlying issue?

Kevin has used careful wording that carries the message that he was right and Eric and Giano were wrong (for example, see "Giano's behavior has been problematic" in Kevin's statement above—I suppose that refers to Giano strongly questioning Kevin's answers to questions on his talk). Even if Giano had been problematic, mentioning that here is just a deflection from the issue which concerns admin accountability.

Anyone can make a mistake, and someone not used to having their authority questioned may stick to their mistake for longer than necessary. That's all fine. My concern, however, is that Kevin has not acknowledged the central issue—does an administrator have a special authority that allows their judgment to overrule ordinary editors? For emergencies such as enforcing WP:BLP, the answer is yes. But nothing that Eric wrote constituted an emergency that required Eric to be threatened with a gigantic box stating unequivocally that Eric had violated BLP, and would be blocked if a repeat occurred (diff). Kevin followed that up with gratuitous insults: "Show some common decency ... Don't gravedance" (diff). That would be fine if Kevin's model of how Wikipedia operates were correct, namely that wisdom and authority flows from admins down. I have yet to see Kevin either retract those personal attacks or offer a plausible argument to support them.

Perhaps Kevin was in possession of secret knowledge concerning the recently deceased editor, and that may have justified removing the section from Jimbo's talk (I would have supported its removal due to the trolling nature of the original post). However, an admin needs to patiently and politely explain their actions without relying on "my stick is bigger than yours" to silence their critics. Johnuniq (talk) 10:01, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Gerda Arendt

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Assume good faith. I have nothing more to say.

Eric's integrity does not rely on arbcom. He did not gravedance. (I like the analysis of Drmies.) If I had said so I would apologize. Next time I would ask first: this looks like gravedancing to me, did you mean that?

See also:
WP:NOJUSTICE
COI: I know the contributor of the post to the Jimbo Wales page (but didn't like the post). I am not Eric's maid (see Giano's talk) but perhaps a confidante (see Kevin's talk).
I think Giano worded the sequence of events well.
I learned the term grave dancing in 2012, - that taught me to avoid it, unless in mocking ;)

Assume good faith, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:06, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

@Kevin: You say "I've expressed in multiple places that I see what was wrong with my actions". I have not seen you apologize to Eric. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:25, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by J3Mrs

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Kevin Gorman completely misread a situation blaming Eric Corbett for something he didn't do and instead of diffusing the situation with an apology Kevin Gorman dug a deeper hole and promised to explain why everything was so secret and conducted off wiki. A satisfactory explanation has yet to appear and Kevin Gorman obviously still thinks Eric Corbett and Giano were problematic, as am I who he banned from his talkpage. Thank you to Giano for raising this, to Georgewilliamherbert who despite his preconceptions has been fair in his summary and Johnuniq. It's been said Eric drives editors away, that's untrue, it's the likes of Kevin Gorman. Are some arbitrators saying admins now have the power to say whatever they like? Seems like it to me. PS I am a "friend", without Eric my contributions would have been so much the poorer. J3Mrs (talk) 17:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Writegeist

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The Wales TP thread that began with the IP’s mawkish, guilt-trippy trolling should have been shut down for the reasons Leaky Cauldron states. Instead administrator Gorman seized on it as an opportunity to pillory, threaten, harass and obstruct Corbett when he bluntly exposed the IP's thesis as a crock. Further, Gorman obdurately misrepresented Corbett (and I note Dingley still does) as insulting the dead, a repellent calumny which I’d have thought even a halfwit reading Corbett’s actual words would see as false; also as causing emotional harm to the living.

Gorman’s incompetence is manifest in his misunderstandings, misapplications of policy, and threats of retribution etc. His entrenched battleground mindset, with its brazen, oikish vindictiveness towards Corbett, is also on vivid display. Administrators should be held to higher standards. (They’re not, of course, as we’re seeing here.) Apparently this particular ex-WMF intern doesn't "see much point" in the arbs accepting this case. True. Nice if they opened this eyes for him, but we've all known from the outset that pigs will fly first.

As for the diversionary contributions that leach the toxic narrative of Corbett-as-villain into this page (e.g. Antarctica's "maybe the committee should consider whether it wants to take decisive action [against Corbett] now . . ." and Drmargi's assertion that Corbett is responsible for “precipitating” Gorman's abusive shenanigans, not to mention his follow-up that any of us proles—I count myself among those sniffily dismissed in that "et al."—who voice concerns about abusive admin behaviour are mere troublemakers), they’re every bit as creepy and Mintrue-worthy as Dingly peddling Gorman's grave-dancing propaganda.

Oh and I'm not buying Gorman's faux-naïve explanation for addressing his target as Malleus—that little trick fits right into the pattern of vindictiveness: "Look everyone, it's him again! That scum with the rapsheet of a bazillion busts! Watch me pin this one on the bastard!"

Sure, Gorman’s a rookie cop. He’s also clearly, on the evidence, a rotten cop. His methods are corrupt: for the rotten cop, the ends (taking your man down) justify the means (anything goes). That’s the behaviour we’ve seen from Kevin Gorman. And the arbs are washing their hands? Gosh well there’s a surprise. Writegeist (talk) 18:37, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

@ N Antarctica: I didn't say they did. Writegeist (talk) 21:25, 19 February 2014 (UTC) @ N Antarctica (again): Think. Please. A modus operandi is no less a modus operandi for being unsuccessful. And in this instance, as I thought I'd made clear, but apparently not to you, Gorman's odious (and bungled) methods were deployed to bring about numerous self-evident objectives, namely to impugn Corbett's integrity, humanity and probity, to denigrate his character, to smear, belittle, and outlaw him, and to pin trumped-up charges on him. That is, to bring him down. Writegeist (talk)

Comment by semi-retired Dennis Brown

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Salvio is about as spot on in his assessment as you could be. Kevin would serve himself and Wikipedia best by sincerely apologizing, as he is held to a higher standard and the mistakes he made were pretty basic ones. Humble pie is good for the soul, and often it is best to ignore the flaws of another when your own mistakes are much greater. Then a formal admonishment would be unnecessary, in my opinion. Eric's actions weren't perfect, but the gist of what he said was pretty much on target. Considering the totality of the circumstances, I didn't see Eric's reactions as unusual as some might think. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 16:25, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Sagaciousphil

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I am appalled that it looks as if this is about to be swept under the carpet with no action or admonishment directed towards Kevin Gorman. He deliberately set out to goad Eric Corbett at the first opportunity he found. The initial comment made by Eric in response to the IP was neither inaccurate nor uncivil. Kevin then attempted to justify his actions by claiming to have all sorts of “secret” information at the same time continuing to exacerbate the situation. I note that he still proudly displays his congratulatory barnstars yet he has concealed everything else regarding this deplorable situation in the archives. This includes his “final statement” in which his considered wording says: “ … my belief that that thread needed killed …” - hardly appropriate well thought out wording when making a statement about a thread started about suicide. He also accused Eric of “driving editors away” - again Kevin is totally inaccurate in this. I have always found Eric a pleasure and delight to work with. On the other hand, Kevin’s actions and attitude comes across as heavy handed, vindictive and, in this instance wholly wrong - especially from an Admin. At the very least he should be severely admonished while also hoping that Eric would be willing to accept the most fulsome of apologies from him. SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Writ Keeper

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While I'm glad that Kevin has admitted at least some problems with his own actions (and probably am too late to the party in any event), the two things that really trouble me are this: one, Kevin said that he had consulted with other, more experienced admins before acting; that's generally a good thing, but here, it disturbs me that none of those he consulted came up with a better idea. Indeed, it kind of sounds like these advisors put him up to this. But that's just my speculation, and as we don't know who they were, Arbcom is probably not equipped to handle that. The second thing, which is one that I really do wish Arbcom would take on, is the fact that Kevin invoked BLP, and particularly the AE sanctions around BLP, to make his sanctions on Eric "stick". For my part, I can't see any plausible way that Eric's original comments are in any way a BLP violation, as he said nothing about the subject of the thread. The (mis)use of BLP and AE sanctions to make one admin's actions stick and exempt them from the usual processes of review is cynical, misguided, and (to me) deeply arrogant, and I think that, if nothing else, it alone warrants some kind of response from Arbcom. Admin authority is enough as it is; apparently calculated maneuvers to further increase one admin's authority without cause needs something. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:50, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Harry Mitchell

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Arbs, are you really going to let an admin get away with what is the single most absurd interpretation of one of your rulings (and that title has plenty of competition) I've ever seen? This is squarely within your remit as it concerns BLP special enforcement and the idiotic conduct of an admin—precisely the kind of conduct for which the admin corps as a whole takes so much stick. If Kevin's action is allowed to pass without so much as a bat of an eyelid from ArbCom, then he will probably never realise why his actions were so problematic, and no doubt I'll be receiving a template soon for my use of the word "idiotic". To do nothing would be to completely renounce your responsibility as the only body capable of enforcing the policy on admin accountability. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by JzG

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I believe the appropriate sanction here is a vigorous trout-slapping. Rules be damned, that was dickish, from both parties. I've had the death of my sister exploited by another user in retaliation for stopping a POV-push, that kind of thing can make you feel physically sick.

Addendum: as it happens, Kevin is involve din something else where an OTRS ticket came in. He could not have been more helpful. So I don't think he's evil, and I am sure that Eric isn't. Maybe WP:TEA instead of WP:TROUT. Who knows. Guy (Help!) 00:32, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Robofish

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I just have to observe the irony here that the various comments by users above contain stronger personal attacks than were made by either of the parties in this dispute. If they deserve blocking/admonishing, then most of those commenting above deserve blocking/admonishing as well. Urge ArbCom to recognise this as a fuss about nothing and reject it. Robofish (talk) 00:02, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment by DangerousPanda

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Here's my motion:

  1. Kevin is admonished for reading too quickly, and taking an unfortunate amount of time recognizing that
  2. Eric is admonished for issuing ultimatae
  3. Everyone who was suckered into this dramathread is admonished simply for being suckered in (and we all deserve it)
  4. I'm admonished for pointing out the obvious.

DP 00:20, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Clerk notes

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This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
  • Recuse. I just made a minor edit to correct an obvious typo. Otherwise no more.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Recuse. --Rschen7754 21:17, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Recuse I feel strongly about this matter. — ΛΧΣ21 Call me Hahc21 23:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Just noting that I will not be recusing and that with the three arbitrator recusals and two inactives five votes to accept or decline are a majority. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 16:06, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
    • Confirming Ks0stm's note above. This request is now mathematically impossible to accept. As it has been open for more than 48 hours, it can be archived as declined by the next available clerk. Carcharoth (talk) 00:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Kevin Gorman—Eric Corbett: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/5/3/0>

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Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)

  • recuse Beeblebrox (talk) 23:47, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Recuse I've interacted significantly with Kevin regarding WikiPR, to a degree where I feel I should recuse. NativeForeigner Talk 02:27, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Recuse, as I've promised to do in all things related to Eric Corbett. However, I will note that I'm not recusing because of anything to do with Kevin Gorman, so if something like this ever happens again, not involving Eric, I will very likely vote to accept. --Floquenbeam (talk) 04:23, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Decline. A trout-slapping all around is in order, especially to Kevin—there's value in knowing when your actions are only going to exacerbate the issue, especially if your claim is per BLP. No statements bring up a serious pattern of problematic behavior outside of this incident, so opening a case seems premature. I would hope that Kevin does learn from this kerfluffle. In response to Georgewilliamherbet's statement, Eric leaves Wikipedia all the time; other editors storm off around arb cases all the time. That shouldn't have any bearing on accepting the case. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 13:48, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Decline expeditiously. Every aspect of this situation is unfortunate, but it is undesirable to publicize it further, and there is little value we can add. (Also, as a reminder, casenames should be neutral and non-argumentative.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:18, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Decline per David Fuchs and Newyorkbrad. No-one will forget what happened here in a hurry, but it is not something that should be escalated. The actions of several here (including Kevin) were not ideal in such a charged situation, but I'm not prepared to go further than that. It would be better for people to move on as I would hope we all have better things to be doing. Carcharoth (talk) 09:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Both parties are at fault, here, in my opinion.

    Now, while I agree with the gist of Eric's remark (a person feeling depressed should always seek professional help), I think the way he phrased it was highly unfortunate and I do understand why Kevin felt he needed to act; his actions were ill-advised, yes, but had the best possible intentions. The most problematic part of this kerfuffle, for me, is what happened afterwards: Kevin made a personal attack on Eric and, when this was pointed out to him, he not only refused to apologise but actually doubled down on the attacks. Now, everyone has, at one time or another, put his foot in his mouth; that's not a big deal. What's important, however, is to acknowledge that and apologise. Saying I find laughable the idea that anyone should apologize to Eric over a perceived personal attack is unacceptably arrogant and is not the kind of behaviour I'd like to see in an admin.

    Then again, Eric is hardly blameless in all this: in addition to his inappropriate remark, he needlessly inflamed this dispute and his "I'll retire unless Kevin's blocked" is just sad.

    On balance, however, I find Kevin's conduct more problematic, in that we was acting as an administrator. That said, I don't believe a case would be helpful and so my vote is to decline this request, though I do support a motion admonishing Kevin for conduct unbecoming. Salvio Let's talk about it! 13:52, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

  • I largely agree with Salvio, but believe we should take care of the motion prior to declining the case. Kevin's behavior in this instance served to inflame the situation, and is not in line with what we should expect from an administrator. I hope it can be chalked up to inexperience, but we should be clear it can't happen again. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:58, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Decline per my colleagues, particularly David Fuchs, Newyorkbrad, and Carcharoth. I agree with Salvio's analysis of this situation, but do not see a motion as particularly necessary. T. Canens (talk) 08:15, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

The aftermath (from 21 February 2014)

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Sequel

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Of course when Kaldari, a WMF employee had attacked Corbett, the Arbcom and certain Admins went to great lengths to protect him.

I am the blocked: 22:37, 25 February 2014 GorillaWarfare (talk | contribs) blocked Giano (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy. Do not unblock without ArbCom consent.)

Attempt to have this page deleted

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