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Template:Did you know nominations/Owen Ray Skelton

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Owen Ray Skelton

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Owen R. Skelton 1920 passport
Skelton WWI draft registration card
  • ... that Owen Ray Skelton is credited with engineering a rubber engine mount system for cars known as "floating power" to greatly cut down on engine vibration to the chassis?

Created/expanded by Doug Coldwell (talk). Self nom at 12:37, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

  • - Length, Date, & Cite all check out. Best, Mifter (talk) 04:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
1900 census for Owen Skelton, age "15"
  • Did the reviewer read the article? In the first paragraph it says he was born in 1886, and also says that the 1900 census gives his age as 15, two facts that are mutually contradictory. Further, the "mid-life" section is entirely census reports, which aren't what I'd want to see in an article referenced from the front page, and I'm not sure how it can be guaranteed that the Skelton in those reports is this Skelton. Even the opening line of the lead is odd: Wikipedia typically gives the full name and maybe a nickname. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:13, 20 December 2012 (UTC)


BlueMoonset - I'll try to address your concerns and issues.
1) 1900 minus 1886 is 14. Depending on the exact date when the census was taken and who reported this information, it often occures that an age for census reporting is off by 1 year. For example in this case his birthday is in February and if the census was taken later in the year, his parents might consider him to be closer to 15 years old. I saw the image of the census and it "shows" him to be 15 years old. How accurate is it, I don't know - but that is what it "shows". The census information can be verified by going to any library and using Ancestry.com which is a pretty accurate source since they get the information from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), who keeps pretty accurate data bases on the United States census. It is considered the standard to go to for family history. If you doubt the accuracy, I would recommend you go to a library and look at the census images. I have already looked at all the census images and I know the Skelton in these reports is the Skelton I have written the article on. Anybody can go to any library and verify this as I have given the exact census image for reference. The references are given so anybody can verify the information.
It so happens that the 1920 census for Owen R. Skelton shows his age as "33" (real age is 34). This shows another example how the census can be off 1 year (plus or minus) on age. It turns out this happens often and is not an unusual event.
2) This is a biography on Owen Ray Skelton. A biography is an account of someone's life events. I am writing about his life events at certain points in his life (i.e. 1910, 1920, 1930, 1940). In 1930 he is married and has a daughter. In 1940 he has two daughters. Significant events in his life.
3) His career is a section by itself. This information can be verified by the book references given, which are these books:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22738816@N07/8278080595/in/photostream
4) You said Wikipedia typically gives the full name and maybe a nickname. I have given his full name as "Owen Ray Skelton" (article name) and other names he was known by (Owen R. Skelton, Owen Skelton) as from the books above. I gave a nickname of "Skelt", which can also be verified in those books. I don't know any other names he was known by, as it was not given in these books. His World War I draft card signed by him is "Owen Ray Skelton" (bottom image). His signature is in the info box. I can get his World War I draft card from Ancestry.com or you can from any library. Skelton signed his 1920 passport (top image) "Owen R. Skelton". The nickname "Skelt" is found in many references; a) Owen Skelton, Executive Engineer, b) "Chrysler: The Life and Times of an Automotive Genius" by Vincent Curcio (which book I have in my hands), c) The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy by Carl Breer, one of The Three Musketeers (which book I have in my hands).
Does that answer your concerns? --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:13, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
I think we may need to take this to the article's talk page; this isn't the place for such in-depth discussion and bunches of census facsimiles. In brief:
  • The 1920 census correctly gives Skelton's age as 33: the census is supposed to give data as of January 1 of the year, and Skelton was 33 from January 1 until he turned 34 in February. That's what makes "15" so wrong. When you have a piece of data you know is wrong, why insist on reporting it? You're just undermining your article.
  • The biographies I've read don't give a snapshot every ten years, they give actual details as they happen. This reads extremely oddly, and I am very hesitant about it being promoted to the main page with two "the census says this" sections leading the way.
  • My point was that you should not list all the variants of his name. Once you've established that his full name is Owen Ray Skelton, that's the only name you give in the header. Period. If sources have other, shorter forms of his name, that's only to be expected, but not worthy of note. You'll only be calling him "Skelton" in the rest of the article anyway. I'm not sure if it matters whether you do it as "Owen Ray "Skelt" Skelton (1886–1969)" or "Owen Ray Skelton" (1886–1969), also known as "Skelt"," but that's as much of his name as should go in the intro. See WP:LEAD for more info. (You might even save "Skelt" for the article body. At the very least, though, you should give one of those sources you list above for it in the article.)
  • One final issue: the "Death" section does not have an inline source citation, and every paragraph needs at least one for DYK. You'll need to supply one. Perhaps an obituary would have what you need? BlueMoonset (talk) 04:05, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
  • BlueMoonset - Thanks for improvement ideas. The subject's name is given as ONLY "Owen Ray Skelton." The Mid life and Death sections have been removed. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:37, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I visited the article at BlueMoonset's suggestion (and am the one who removed the Mid-life section). I restored the death information with a source, along with some other content that I found in the source and thought was relevant to the Skelton biography. The removal of the genealogical-type details derived from Census records improved the article, IMO. A few details are still based only on the Census, which is a primary source that ought to be avoided, but I don't think the use of Census information is excessive.
After reading the article and portions of the cited sources, it struck me that there are some large holes in the article. The lead section states that Skelton was "one of the core engineering people that formed the present day Chrysler Corporation", but the "Career" section of the article pretty much stopped with his earlier work at Studebaker. There was a mention of Chrysler in the article body, in a statement that Skelton made four-wheel hydraulic brakes "a standard feature on Chrysler cars", but that's all that's said. Considering that he is considered one of the company's founders and spent three decades in association with Chrysler, the body of the article ought to include some content about his involvement with the company. When I re-added his date of death, I also included the dates of his membership on the corporate board of directors and his retirement from Chrysler, but the inclusion of those details does not substitute for the inclusion of other basic information about his role in the company. Length in terms of number of prose characters is not the only determinant of the adequacy of the length of a DYK article; we also need to look for minimally adequate treatment of the subject. --Orlady (talk) 16:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Orlady - I'll try to address your concerns. Yes, you are correct - he contributed to many other car companies besides Chrysler, so I have edited the lead accordingly. DYK is to place to show off new articles, so the standard is not set at being a Featured Article or even a Good Article. There is room for expansion and much improving (which I am continuing to work on). The basic article is a biography and the life events throughout his life - not just his role at Chrysler. I'll continue to improve the article that I started.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 17:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Three decades of a man's career is *most* of his working life. It seemed incongruous to leap from the earliest years of his career to his retirement (which I added) without touching on what happened in the middle -- particularly when the main sources for the article are books on the history of Chrysler. --Orlady (talk) 22:06, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
ZSB Engineering section has been added to explain this, which brings into play the The Three Musketeers of Studebaker fame article which I created which explains Skelton's engineering career. Yes, I realize the articles can be expanded and improved, but keep in mind this is just a DYK introductory - not a Good Article from the start. That will come in time.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 12:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
In term of completeness this is DYK, and there is no requirement that the article be a complete treatment of the subject; it should (ideally) cover the most important points, it should meet the minimum size requirements, be properly referenced, and images should be properly licenced. Let's not try to make DYK something it's not; DYK is for starting articles that need expansion. Simon Burchell (talk) 20:44, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
  • I think this article meets the DYK requirements. There is, of course, room to expand it but it's more complete than the average article out there. Are we done? bobrayner (talk) 21:58, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
  • Looks OK now. I added a credit for Bigturtle, who made some significant additions to the article. --Orlady (talk) 01:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the tic. I'm sure Bigturtle will appreciate the credit. Thanks for doing that.--Doug Coldwell (talk) 10:19, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
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