- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 20:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
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Hilde Scheppan
... that Hilde Scheppan recorded Wagner roles at the Bayreuth Festival, Eva in 1943 conducted by Hermann Abendroth, and Ortlinde in 1958 with Hans Knappertsbusch?Source: [1] for the recordings, and others for her appearance there
- Reviewed:
to come
- Reviewed:
Created by LouisAlain (talk), Grimes2 (talk), and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 13:21, 27 August 2021 (UTC).
This article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts are cited inline, the article is neutral, and I detected no copyright issues. A QPQ is awaited. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:51, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Women's suffrage in New Jersey. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:03, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
- Not really a fan of the hook, it just mentions that she did this role, without additional context, and is written in such a way that it's not really that appealing to non-opera fans. Perhaps a hook about reception of her performances would work better? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- Do you really think we have to explain in the hook that one was under the Nazis during World War II, and the other much later? ... instead of just letting the facts speak?? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- The thing here is that it's a hook about an opera personality performing a role, a hook format that has already been proven via pageviews to not really gain much interest (see for example the hook for Giedrė Šlekytė, which was statistically tied for the lowest-viewed hook of its set). There's probably something else that could be said about Scheppan that would interest even non-opera fans. Besides, the hook as currently written doesn't make the "Wagner performance during WW2" angle obvious (at least, it wasn't obvious to me at first). If we really have to go with the Wagner angle, I'd suggest focusing on that alone and drop the 1958 Knappertsbusch angle, since Wagner himself is a well-known enough name that his mention could probably raise at least some eyes, at least with a more broadly appealing hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- What wasn't obvious to you might be obvious to others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:06, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- Reading the article, I'm not exactly sure why her 1943 performance is singled out given that it states she performed at Bayreuth yearly between 1937 and 1943, and again a few years later until 1957. If it's because her 1943 performance was recorded, then perhaps a hook about Blyth's review of that would work better. The original hook is trying to cram two unrelated facts into a single hook and it just feels complicated. It may be better to just simply focus on a single performance, and base an interesting hook on that. The "performed Wagner during WW2" angle is actually a good start, there's probably just a way to write it better. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- What wasn't obvious to you might be obvious to others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:06, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- The thing here is that it's a hook about an opera personality performing a role, a hook format that has already been proven via pageviews to not really gain much interest (see for example the hook for Giedrė Šlekytė, which was statistically tied for the lowest-viewed hook of its set). There's probably something else that could be said about Scheppan that would interest even non-opera fans. Besides, the hook as currently written doesn't make the "Wagner performance during WW2" angle obvious (at least, it wasn't obvious to me at first). If we really have to go with the Wagner angle, I'd suggest focusing on that alone and drop the 1958 Knappertsbusch angle, since Wagner himself is a well-known enough name that his mention could probably raise at least some eyes, at least with a more broadly appealing hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- Do you really think we have to explain in the hook that one was under the Nazis during World War II, and the other much later? ... instead of just letting the facts speak?? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:51, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- Not really a fan of the hook, it just mentions that she did this role, without additional context, and is written in such a way that it's not really that appealing to non-opera fans. Perhaps a hook about reception of her performances would work better? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:42, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- There's also an unreferenced paragraph in the article, the one that starts with "A focus of her repertoire was on roles in works by". Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 15:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes. I avoided Blyth's review because I thought that's too opera specific, and a story about continuing a career that was at a peek under the Nazis after their collapse would be more for the general interest. Too tired right now. Unplanned Siegfried Matthus today, as unplanned Teresa Żylis-Gara two days ago. Both are on the Main page now, and I promise 4-digit clicks for these classical music performers. RD is more rewarding than DYK, I must say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:40, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Grimes2: Would you be able to propose a hook that focuses on Bayreuth specifically, that somehow ties in to the whole "Wagner during WW2" angle? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:19, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- ALT1
... that Hilde Scheppan appeared as Eva in a recording of Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg at the Bayreuth Festival during World War II?Grimes2 (talk) 06:59, 31 August 2021 (UTC) - ALT2
... that Hilde Scheppan appeared as Eva in a recording of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg by Wagner, Hitler's favorite composer, at the Bayreuth Festival during World War II?Grimes2 (talk) 06:59, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offers but I can't get behind them, all we say about a woman of great artistry being that she performed under tha Nazis. Yes, that would give the article more clicks, but I'd rather withdraw. The thing worth mentioning - imho, and I tried - is that she overcame that. - I also would find it embarrassing to try to teach our readers that Bayreuth in 1943 was under the Nazis. They will either know that already, or may not even care. We want to say something about her, not who Hitler's favourite composer was, which - again - our readers probably know already (and which doesn't belong in her article). For me, DYK should present something readers don't know yet, or we bore them. Alan Blyth seems to grow into the DYK maker of 2021:
- ALT3: ... that Hilde Scheppan, who recorded the role of Eva in Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg live at the 1943 Bayreuth Festival, was called "a dream of an Eva" by Alan Blyth in 1994?
- About clicks: Narutolovehinata5, can you please make a little statistic about the hooks your way and my way? (Because I think that for opera singers, they both will remain in the 3-digit-range, and the time invested in changing from one style to the other is not worth the trouble, - your time and mine.) Compare RD (recent deaths), and thank you, Grimes2, for overwhelming effort in that project: Teresa Żylis-Gara, died 28 August, nominated the same day, supported 29 August, appeared (just the name), 8k+ clicks the first day, 4k+ the second, - so much more efficient! I trust that our readers don't need a hook to get interested but just a bolded name. We can use the "hook" for a better purpose: telling those (millions) who will not click something worth knowing about the subject. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:56, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda, I thought in the past you expressed disappointment about your hooks not getting that many pageviews; indeed, I remember seeing a discussion in the WT:DYK archives stating that the classical music hooks had a reputation for low pageviews. But as you requested: Isabelle Druet got 1,390 pageviews when she was featured (note that I didn't propose the hook in this case, it was just one that came to mind), Jessye Norman got 6,021 views, Bio's Bahnhof got 2,335 views, Claus Guth (which had a hook by Grimes) got 1,834 views, and Jesu, meine Freude, BWV 227 got 1,055 pageviews. By contrast, as I mentioned earlier, Giedrė Šlekytė only got 813 views, Kazimierz Kowalski got 899 views, Schloss Gripsholm got 2,607 views (though to be fair, the hook for that was actually very interesting and I would have approved it in a heartbeat had I been the reviewer), Andréa Guiot got 789 views, Erich Witte got 608 views, and Gottfried Hornik got 813 views. I didn't check every single one of your recent nominations, but from what I did see, it appears that the ones that don't follow the "personality performed/conducted role/piece A" format seem to have higher pageviews compared to the ones that were primarily about roles. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the stats, - I have no time to look at details now, but it supports my estimate that we talk about a difference of only a few hundred. I doubt that it's worth our time, really. I don't remember having expressed disappointment, but that I rather said better few readers but those interested in the topic than many who leave the article as soon as they enter it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Just one more thought: I believe that it makes a difference of a few hundred clicks whether a hook comes early in the day or late. Assuming that there's more interest in European cultural topics in Europe than in the Americas, I'd think that a hook early - when Europe sleeps - has a disadvantage, regardless of what we say. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:32, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda, I thought in the past you expressed disappointment about your hooks not getting that many pageviews; indeed, I remember seeing a discussion in the WT:DYK archives stating that the classical music hooks had a reputation for low pageviews. But as you requested: Isabelle Druet got 1,390 pageviews when she was featured (note that I didn't propose the hook in this case, it was just one that came to mind), Jessye Norman got 6,021 views, Bio's Bahnhof got 2,335 views, Claus Guth (which had a hook by Grimes) got 1,834 views, and Jesu, meine Freude, BWV 227 got 1,055 pageviews. By contrast, as I mentioned earlier, Giedrė Šlekytė only got 813 views, Kazimierz Kowalski got 899 views, Schloss Gripsholm got 2,607 views (though to be fair, the hook for that was actually very interesting and I would have approved it in a heartbeat had I been the reviewer), Andréa Guiot got 789 views, Erich Witte got 608 views, and Gottfried Hornik got 813 views. I didn't check every single one of your recent nominations, but from what I did see, it appears that the ones that don't follow the "personality performed/conducted role/piece A" format seem to have higher pageviews compared to the ones that were primarily about roles. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- I like ALT3. Grimes2 (talk) 08:25, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- ALT3a
... that Hilde Scheppan, who appeared in Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg live recording at the 1943 Bayreuth Festival, was called "a dream of an Eva" by Alan Blyth in 1994?Grimes2 (talk) 08:25, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think ALT3's hook fact is probably the best option we have considering the article content, but ALT3/ALT3a's wording could probably still be improved, they're a bit on the complicated side. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- ALT3b
... that Hilde Scheppan was called by Alan Blyth "a dream of an Eva" in Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg live recording at the 1943 Bayreuth Festival?Grimes2 (talk) 09:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)- I'm biased but think ALT3a needlessly includes "live" which doesn't add much to her (all broadcasts from Bayreuth being live for decades), and ALT3b gives needlessly weight to the reviewer whom many will not even know. - I like his appreciation after all these years, and I like that at the end, like dessert. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:16, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
- ALT4
... that Hilde Scheppan's performance in the 1943 Bayreuth Festival's production of Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg was called "a dream of an Eva"? - ALT4a
... that Hilde Scheppan's performance in the 1943 Bayreuth Festival's production of Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg was called "a dream of an Eva"?
- Is this okay? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
- English is not my first language but I think he said "she" was a dream, not her performance. Also: we may have readers - our broad audience - who'd rather recognize Wagner than Bayreuth. Also: we have to make clear that this was said in 1994 by a reviewer with an article, not some of her admirers at that time who may have been a Nazi. The shortest way to do that is the year and his extremely short name. He wrote in a journal which is rated as one of the most significant. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:20, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
- ALT3c
... that Hilde Scheppan was called "a dream of an Eva" in a 1994 Gramophone review of Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg recording at the 1943 Bayreuth Festival?Grimes2 (talk) 08:27, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not really a fan of ALT3 and its variations because they seem a bit long-winding. I would have preferred a more direct description (which was what I was trying to with ALT4). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:57, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda, if the chronology of ALT3c is an issue, ALT4 is already offered as an option and appears to address the chronology concerns. And while technically yes it was her that was called a "dream", it's not inaccurate to say that it also refers to her performance either. To address your concerns, here's another stab:
- ALT4c ... that Hilde Scheppan's performance in the 1943 Bayreuth Festival's production of Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg was called "a dream of an Eva" by Alan Blyth in 1994?
- Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:10, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
- I still don't think the grammar is right - how can a performance be a dream of a character? - but that may be my language deficiency. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda, if the chronology of ALT3c is an issue, ALT4 is already offered as an option and appears to address the chronology concerns. And while technically yes it was her that was called a "dream", it's not inaccurate to say that it also refers to her performance either. To address your concerns, here's another stab:
- ALT4d
... that in Hilde Scheppan's performance in the 1943 Bayreuth Festival's production of Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg she was called "a dream of an Eva" by Alan Blyth in 1994?Grimes2 (talk) 07:30, 5 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Are you okay with ALT4d? If so, I'll approve the nom. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- No. To me, "that in her performance" almost sounds like "that during her performance". Trying harder then:
- ALT4e ... that more than fifty years after Hilde Scheppan appeared in Wagner's Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg at the 1943 Bayreuth Festival, reviewer Alan Blyth called her "a dream of an Eva"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:35, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- Bravo Gerda, ALT4e is the best. Grimes2 (talk) 11:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. ALT4e is written just fine and addresses the problematic wording of previous versions. Rest of the review per Cwmhiraeth. ALT4e is approved. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Are you okay with ALT4d? If so, I'll approve the nom. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:06, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not really a fan of ALT3 and its variations because they seem a bit long-winding. I would have preferred a more direct description (which was what I was trying to with ALT4). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:57, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
