Talk:Yi Jeong-gyu

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Theleekycauldron (talk) 12:51, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

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• ... that Yi Jeonggyu was an anarchist who did not recognension butift that occurred iize anarchism and nationalism as opposing concepts? Source: http://contents.nahf.or.kr/item/item.do?levelId=edeah.d_0005_0040_0030_0030#self

Created by Jirangmoon (talk). Self-nominated at 10:44, 26 April 2022 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral: - The article includes several passages that I feel are not adherent to the NPOV policy.
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems: - Some cleanup is needed to tidy up spelling errors and inappropriate word choices that don't fit the encyclopedic tone.

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting: - Not particularly interesting or notable.
• Other problems: - The hook is also not grammatically correct and should replace the comma with "was".

QPQ: None required.

Overall: The article needs some work and a new hook. SounderBruce 22:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the review. I fixed the grammatical error in the hook and in the article (using Grammarly). As for neutrality and the hook, I don't see any problems - aren't those subjective assessments? If you tell me what is non-neutral, I'll take another look. As for interesting or not, I think this hook is interesting. Do we need a third opinion? --Jirangmoon (talk)

Third opinion: Yeah, I don't think it's a particularly interesting hook either. It's also not particularly notable by itself, given that the crossover between Korean anarchism and nationalism are very well documented. On this issue, Yi Jeonggyu was far from unique. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:44, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

• ALT1: ... that Yi Jeonggyu was an anarchist in the Korean independence movement? Source: Hwang, Dongyoun (2016). Anarchism in Korea. State University of New York Press. p. 12. ISBN 9781438461694. OCLC 959978940. Undoubtedly, the goal of Korean independence movement was to regain independence from Japanese colonialism, to which Yi had devoted himself with anarchism.
• ALT2: ... that Yi Jeonggyu was a pioneer of the Korean anarchist movement? Source: Hwang, Dongyoun (2016). Anarchism in Korea. State University of New York Press. p. 23, 27–28 (see below). ISBN 9781438461694. OCLC 959978940.

I've added alts based on items sourced in the lede but they need page numbers for verification. czar 18:53, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

User:Czar Thank you very much! For Alt1, the page number is 12 : "Undoubtedly, the goal of Korean independence movement was to regain independence from Japanese colonialism, to which Yi had devoted himself with anarchism."

For Alt2, the page number is 25 : "Yi Jeonggyu (1897–1984), one of the most active Korean anarchists in 1920s China, just like other Korean exiles, began his career as an independence activist and converted later to anarchism." --Jirangmoon (talk) 19:26, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, @Jirangmoon! Those sources do not quite confirm the language used in the alts and the article, if you can rephrase both to match their sources? I.e., they do not say he was a "pioneer" or "key", unless there is another section that says so. czar 19:36, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

User:Czar Thank you. Can you review the following quote which contains the word pioneer? It's from page 11.

Echoes to Sim’s description of his complex life as both an anarchist and a nationalist can be found in Yi Jeonggyu’s recall. Yi, a prominent anarchist active in various educational and rural movements before and after 1945, too poses his life as one with such a tension but, in his case, shifting further toward anarchism that offered him a vision of social revolution, rather than simply a nationalism-driven political revolution that aimed merely at national independence. Yi explains the shift that occurred in his life as follows: The first half of my life had gone through a life for struggle for independence movement, and [then in the second half] turned for a movement for social revolution of an ideological idea [sic] that has been viewed in this world, without any good reason, as too extreme. [The second half has been] a life as one of the pioneers, who has been indulged in anarchism, that is, no-government movement.

Will this be ok for ALT2? --Jirangmoon (talk) 13:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

@Jirangmoon, it looks like that quotes Yi as saying that he himself is a pioneer. Since that is an exceptional claim, it requires an exceptional, secondary source. We could say "Yi thought of himself as a pioneer" for ALT2. I've updated both ALTs to match the source but the article text will need to be corrected for both as well. czar 13:47, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

User:Czar Sorry for a late reply.

Regarding the ALT2 matter, I am a bit confused in editing things on Wikipedia as a Wiki beginner. I do not remember why I wrote the sentence with the word, “pioneer” for Yi Jeonggyu because I started the article more than 6 months ago. Anyhow, I have tried not to move or copy source sentences to the Wikipedia articles as they are except for quotations. In that process, even though the source articles does not have the word “pioneer” for Yi Jeonggyu, I thought that Yi Jeonggyu could be one of the pioneers of Korean anarchist movement because Yi Jeonggyu influenced Yi Hoeyeong who was called “the pioneer of Korean anarchism” in the source. So if someone was doing something before the “pioneer”, isn’t he even more of a pioneer?

See the quotations below:

Page 23: In addition, Shin’s friendship with Yi Hoeyeong (1867–1932), often called “the pioneer of Korean anarchism,” must have been a factor as well for his acceptance of anarchism.

Page 27-28: It seems that Yi Hoeyeong surely was impressed with Yi Jeonggyu’s project and anarchist ideas with regard to the proposed ideal farming villages in Hunan. Indeed, it is said that Yi Jeonggyu’s role was decisive in converting Yi Hoeyeong, who was persuaded by the former about the goal of anarchism and thus accepted it in later 1923.38 Discussing with many kinds of independence activists and radicals, including Chinese and Taiwanese, Yi Hoeyeong finally chose anarchism for his own answer. The national goal, of course, was the key that drew him to anarchism.

Page 28: In this sense, to call Yi Hoeyeong “the pioneer of Korean anarchism” is an interesting indication of the coming trajectory and transnational character of Korean anarchism in China in the 1930s and ’40s.

Also, from a Korean article at http://m.kyeongin.com/view.php?key=20190501010000158: “우당 이회영을 아나키즘 사상가로 인도한 이가 바로 이정규다 “ It was Yi Jeonggyu who led Yi Hoeyeong to become an anarchist.

--Jirangmoon (talk) 14:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Looks good to me! I've updated ALT2. @SounderBruce, want to take another peek? czar 01:26, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

New review needed czar 21:31, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

I made some additional minor copyedits, with no change to content. As with the original review, the article is new enough, long enough, no copyvio and no QPQ needed. I did not see anything I would consider strongly NPOV. ALT2 seems very strong and is well supported per the discussion above. GTG. Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:17, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

I reopened this and I'm marking the nomination for closure. There are substantial copyright violations in the article and this nomination has been around since April. SL93 (talk) 22:15, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing is under discussion on the article's talk page. Let's give the editor a chance to correct their edits, as they're new and might be hearing about this copyright issue for the first time. Giving this another week sounds like a reasonable window, considering the work they've put into this. czar 18:30, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok. SL93 (talk) 18:44, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

It's been almost a week and the nominator hasn't edited since June 10. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Close paraphrasing

Hi @Jirangmoon, it looks like there are some issues with the text very closely paraphrasing source text like the Hwang 2016 book. See recent edits to the article for some examples. Would you please recast these sentences completely in your own words? They should largely not repeat the structure or phrasing of the source material, which would be a copyright violation. czar 04:22, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I pulled the DYK nomination from prep because of the copyright issue. Thanks for your pointing the issue out. SL93 (talk) 22:28, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

All credit to this thread. Let's give the editor a chance to correct their edits, as they're new and might not be aware about copyright. @Jirangmoon, please read through the link above and confirm that you understand the issue and how to correct it? We're here to help if not. czar 18:28, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

In particular it looks like the paragraph in Anarchism in Korea that starts with "Yi Jeonggyu (1897–1984)..." and the one two paragraphs after that was the basis for a lot of this. There are some things that are less concerning (eg the "Beijing Special School for Esperanto" sentence is very close to its source, but there are only so many ways you can write "he set up a school and taught in it"), but others are very close both in exact wording and in meaning/format. @Jirangmoon, I think you should look at the paragraph on the farming village in particular. There are several sources in the footnotes, but the way it's written mostly follows Anarchism in Korea. Right now the paragraph in this article is mostly about the farming village, rather than Yi Jeonggyu himself, but maybe the Korean-language sources can help you refocus it? That might be a good way to avoid the close paraphrasing problems. -- asilvering (talk) 07:05, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Been a few weeks so attempting to do this myself. Should I continue with re-paraphrasing the rest of the Hwang 2016 citations, or is it likely that the Korean translations and other citations have the same close paraphrasing issue? I.e., should I continue or would WP:TNT be preferable? czar 20:13, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hm. My instinct would be that close paraphrasing is more likely when there's an English-language source. (In my teaching experience, the more common mistake when using non-English sources is that someone comes across a key word that is unfamiliar and translates it into something that was in the translation dictionary/google but comes off extremely strangely in context.) I thought I would try to see what a google translate version of the Korean-sources-only sentences looked like, and actually there aren't very many in this article at all. If He served as President of Cheongju University in 1958 and President of Sungkyunkwan University in 1963 and retired in 1966. is a word-for-word translation of one of the Korean-language sources, well... maybe that should concern me, but it doesn't. So I think this should be fine if it stays far enough away from Hwang's words. -- asilvering (talk) 20:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good. If it was mostly Hwang 2016 then I've rewritten those portions and remove the maintenance tag. There are some multi-citation footnotes that will be hard to verify across multi-language sources. czar 21:40, 16 July 2022 (UTC)