Talk:Volodymyr Kubijovyč

Controversial issues

This below is a partial quote from the message left at my talk by Mike Stoyik. I copy it here and reply below to keep the discussion closer to the article. I hope Mike won't object. --Irpen

Dear Irpen:

It is some time since I began contributing to the Wikipedia and we collaborated together on our Kostomarov piece (before I registered), and I was somewhat surprised to meet you again in Volodymyr Kubiyovych. But here we are. I appreciate your additions to the article. However, I think that you underestimate the limited tactical nature of Kubiyovych's collaboration with the Germans and are in too much of a hurry to write him off as a Nazi, or something like one. Now, I admit that am not an expert on Kubiyovych, or even on the Second World War, but from what I have read of his writings and about him, he seems to have been no fascist. Certainly, his memoirs read very well and he comes across in them as a civilized man. In these memoirs, he compares himself to the Soviet Ukrainian academics who were evacuated to Ufa during the war and, of course, collaborated with Stalin's regime. He implies by this, I think, that they both did what little they could for the Ukrainian people in those terrible days "when evil was most free."

As to the citations on K's moderate position on Ukrainian-Polish relations during the war, and his saving Jews during the war, these come from I. Pidkova and R. Shust, Dovidnyk z istorii Ukrainy, 2nd ed. (K, 2002), article on Kubiyovych, which is available on line and could be linked to this article. But I do not know how to do this and it would be good if someone could do it for me.

Finally, I have again smoothed out the English in the article and tried to "encyclopedize" the language, to use an expression that you once taught me with regard to Kostomarov, and of which, I think, Kubiyovych would approve..

Best wishes... Mike Stoyik 16:40, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Mike, I both agree and disagree with you. To start with, perhaps we come from different backgrounds. Viewing those events from as far as Canada certain things look differently, but I assure you that as this is seen in Ukraine, and pretty much throughout Europe, the issue of collaboration with Nazis to an extent as taking a leading role in the organizing the SS-unit is a big deal. IMO this does not turn Kubiyovych into just another Nazi and my edit does not imply as such. But that makes him certainly a controversial figure.

He might have done that thinking that these actions might help Ukraine, as he saw it. But the comparison with the academics of Soviet Ukraine who kept their dissent to themselves working under the Stalin regime simply does not fly. One thing is to keep oneself silent when a more courageous men speak out. Quite another thing is to organize military units that would cooperate with the Genocidal regime that has plundered Ukraine and Ukrainians for 4 years. This is more like the Ukrainian academics' would be envolvement in organizing of expropriating NKVD units that plundered the Ukrainian villages in early-30s confiscating crop. There is a difference between not being courageous to voice the dissent loudly and actually collaborating with the regime by organizing the military units for it and helping to recruit. Also, comparison of Hitler atrocities in Ukraine with those of Stalin is inapropriate IMO, even taking into account the Holodomor tragedy. Hitler' policies were racial at its core targeted at extermination of Jews and to a significant extent the Ukrainians. Stalin's policies were anti-human in general, in early 30s anti-peasant too but he never set a goal to exterminate Ukrainians as a nation, like Hitler did. His policies were pretty much uniform and equally cruel to all Soviet ethnicities. For instance, even a larger share of Kazakhs perished in the early-30 famine that the Ukrainians and even now, when the archives are open, there is no evidence that his policies were directed at the elimination of the Ukrainians as a nation, rather at suppressing the peasantry, seen unreliable to the Bolshevik policies, and extract as much grain as possible to finance his economic programs. More of it is disccused in "Was Holodomor a Genocide" section of the Holodomor article.

So, I strongly think that the collaboration with Nazis should not be minimized. It does not make Kubiyovych just the Nazi-end of story, he was a complicated person, but it is a big issue that would remain forever associated with Kubiyovych, along with his superb stance as an academic.

Also, you removed my correction that UofUA is largely written from Ukrainophile POV. You and I know that it is correct. Just check its articles, for instance the UPA article there minimized its role in the interethnic violence and terror of the civillian population committed by this group concentrating only on its being a resistance force to Nazis, which is true but only a part of the story.

As such, I will restore some of the points I raised earlier. I also added the citations you the Dovidnyk that you gave me, Thanks, --Irpen 20:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Was the stamp referred to in the last paragraph a postage stamp issued by the Ukrainian post office or was it a commemorative issued by some private organization? From the image as it now stands in the article, it does not seem to bear any official sign. Mike Stoyik 16:11, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I figured what the problem was. It was a postal stationary, an envelope ready to mailed as Postage is included in its price. Corrected. Thanks for noticing. --Irpen 06:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

B-class review

This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 21:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

The article, of course, is written very mediocrely and is positively biased towards Kubiyovych, the author is trying with all his might to whitewash Kubiyovych's collaboration with the Nazis, using facts that are based on secondary or unproven sources, such as the fact that he allegedly stopped the massacre of Ukrainian peasants in Zamosc and tried to stop the Volyn massacre between Poles and Ukrainians, or an unsubstantiated assertion that allegedly his materials about the brutal treatment of Ukrainian peasants by the Nazis were used at the Nuremberg trials, but does Yad Vashem know that he allegedly saved 300 Jews? If so, why was he not given the title of Righteous Among the Nations? Цйфыву (talk) 15:48, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 10 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 17:27, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

---

Volodymyr Kubiyovych → Volodymyr Kubijovyč – Kubijovyč is the Latin-alphabet spelling used by Kubijovyč himself, and that appeared on his English-language works, including the 1963–1971 two-volume Ukraine: A Concise Encyclopaedia, the 1984–2001 six-volume Encyclopedia of Ukraine, and at least some other works (e.g., 1963, Western Ukraine Within Poland 1920–1939). It is also common in citations and reviews of his works, and works that mention him, for example, Subtelny (1988), Ukraine: A History. It corresponds to the scientific transliteration of the Ukrainian name Володимир Кубійович. This is the correct spelling for the article title, per WP:COMMONNAME.

The spelling Kubiiovych also appears in some academic and popular-academic works that have transliterated his name from Ukrainian per modified Library of Congress romanization, for example, Magocsi (1996), A History of Ukraine: The Land and its Peoples. This also coincides with the Ukrainian National system of romanization, and would be Wikipedia’s default spelling if no common name were determined, per WP:CYR and WP:UKR.

The spelling Kubiyovych is according to the BGN/PCGN romanization 1965 standard, formerly used for geographical naming, and superseded by the Ukrainian National system.

The spelling Kubiĭovych is according to strict ALA-LC Romanization, and appears in English-language library catalogues and bibliographies.

Google Scholar results (per WP:GOOG, with quotation marks and excluding “Wikipedia”): Kubijovyč 311, Kubiiovych 99, Kubiyovych 69, Kubiĭovych 13. Google Books results, as above with English-language sources only: Kubijovyč 7,820, Kubiiovych 717, Kubiyovych 56, Kubiĭovych 28.

See Romanization of Ukrainian about systems.  —Michael Z. 17:27, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support per well-reasoned and strongly-sourced nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:21, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support Per op—blindlynx (talk) 22:57, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dismissal from the Jagiellonian University

Shortly before the war (1939), Kubijovyč was dismissed from the Jagiellonian University on political grounds. This is covered in this source. - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:21, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Due weight

The article is starting to turn into the story of “Kubijovyč the Nazi collaborator,” with “Nazi Nazi Nazi” creeping into every section and sprouting in the headings.[1] This is not why he’s notable. Is it time to slap an NPOV tag on top of it yet?  —Michael Z. 23:29, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mzajac - He was a major collaborator, per sources. This fact was overlooked here for years, but you are welcome to balance the article a little if you think his collaboration is now over-exposed. I’m fine with it. However do not remove sources, please. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:46, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mzajac What information do you want to trim? - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:48, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

By the way, it would be nice if you helped a bit, particularly in his post war section. In my opinion, he was a fascinating person who made some some poor choices during the war. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:49, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, one source says “major,” and we know that source has been criticized by others for its POV. If you have access, look in the standard Ukrainian histories like Subtelny, Magocsi, maybe Plohkii and Yekelchyk for what he is actually notable for and his aims in establishing the Ukrainian Central Committee.

I would work on this sooner or later, but don’t anticipate having much time for this article in the near future. Just expressing my concern.  —Michael Z. 00:04, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

I’ll look. Give me a day or two. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:09, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

As far as the word major. We have 3 references. One says major collaborator, another says top collaborator and the 3rd one says leading collaborator. So what do you want to do? Propose a word that summarizes the 3 - major, top and leading.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:16, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

I think that wording like "major", "top", etc. are simply not informative. If he collaborated with Nazi, please describe what exactly he did for Nazi and summarize it - this should be sufficient and informative. My very best wishes (talk) 04:08, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

@My very best wishes check the lead now -->[2] All the details are in the article' body now. GizzyCatBella🍁 09:42, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mzajac is this Orest Subtelny in Ukraine: A History ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:51, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

New citation added

@Mhorg - this reference you just added. What text did it suppose to support? The JP article is about the street soon to carry his name, not a post stamp.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

In the article: "Should a road in Kyiv indeed be named after him, it will not be the first time that Ukraine has chosen to honor Kubiyovych. In 2000, a pre-stamped envelope was issued by the Ukrainian postal service in honor of the 100th anniversary of his birth, and in the Ukrainian city of Lviv, a plaque honoring the Nazi official still stands to this day." Mhorg (talk) 21:52, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@Mhorg Oh yeah, I can see it now. You should include details about the street also, since the article is about it. - GizzyCatBella🍁 22:15, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Membership in the Galizien division

@Mzajac As soon as Kubijovyč was the founder of Galizien division, why do You think the article doesn’t indicate his membership in the division? Founders of any organization eventually become first members even if they left that organization at some point. Borisenko-ru (talk) 21:29, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The creator of a military unit does not have to be a member of it, moreover, this is very rarely the case. Military units are usually created by politicians. If there was a category "creators of the Galizien Division" well then VK could be added to it (but I don't know if such a category would meet the requirements of WP:DEFINING). Marcelus (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

That is an example of WP:OR or WP:SYNTH based on an unfounded assumption, if you can’t support the statement with sources that explicitly state the claimed fact. I’ve never seen Kubijovyč referred to as a soldier or commander, holding military rank, wearing a uniform, giving or receiving military orders, fighting in the unit, or anything else that might even actually imply that he was a member (although that may still be insufficient to state that he was), so I find the proposition dubious on the face of it.  —Michael Z. 15:59, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Not many documents are available for research. But for now the fact of membership could be confirmed by this article. Borisenko-ru (talk) 06:40, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

W:WSWS: the Trotskyist website is really only considered reliable to cite what the Trotskyists say. The article on the World Socialist Website quotes a reliable source: “pro-Putin, pro-Assad and 'left-wing' propaganda" combined with "gutter journalism ... run by a 'Trotskyist' cult ... which perpetuates a long worn-out tradition of inter-Trotskyist sectarian quarrels in fulfilling its role as apologist for Putin, Assad, and their friends.” —Michael Z. 14:56, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification @Mzajac. I`ve got Your point. Borisenko-ru (talk) 18:25, 20 December 2023 (UTC)