Talk:Vale of Neath

waterfall/s Country

Probably more correct to say that 'Waterfalls Country' or Waterfall Country' is the name applied to the head of the Vale of Neath. The greatest concentration is on the Neath's tributaries between the villages of Pontneddfechan and Ystradfellte though there are the outlying falls at Aberdulais (near the Dulais' confluence with the Neath) and Melincourt on another lower tributary of the Neath and then of course south Wales' highest fall on the Nant Llech (itself a tributary of the Tawe) at nearby Coelbren. I suspect the term is ued in various ways by different people and pehaps over time. Any thoughts?
Geopersona (talk) 06:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any need for a separate article. "Waterfall country" is informal and has no official definition. Please see the proposal below.

Cymrogogoch (talk) 13:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Waterfall Country (Wales) Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, as the topics are distinct, but to improve the Vale of Neath article. Klbrain (talk) 20:01, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

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I propose to merge Waterfall Country (Wales) into this (Vale of Neath) article. The current Waterfalls Country article is mostly given to a definition of the term and it's ill-defined geography, all of which would be better explained and contextualised in the Vale of Neath article. The size of the merged article will not cause any issues, in fact I think that the small content in the Waterfall Country article is better suited to a section than a separate article. I also think that those searching for the term "Waterfall country" would be better served with a re-direct to the defined geographical area rather than the current page.

Please let me know if you can see any reasons not to merge. Cymrogogoch (talk) 13:44, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

OPPOSE: Most of the Waterfall Country article is in fact taken up with descriptions of the various falls rather than its definition. Waterfall Country bounds upon the Vale of Neath but the larger part of it is not actually within the vale. Ystradfellte for example is commonly referred to as being within Waterfall Country (often serving to define its northern extent) but it's certainly not within the Vale of Neath. And 'Waterfall Country' is a term known to many people; yes relatively modern in the scheme of things and certainly promoted through tourist channels over decades but not exclusively so. Now, conduct a search on the term and it comes up with many hits; it's unlikely to go away anytime soon so I'd say it should remain prominent as an article name in its own right. I suspect you'll have more hits on 'Waterfall Country' than 'Vale of Neath' (sorry, Vale of Neath!) - indeed I see from the stats that it has had more than twice as many hits in the last 30 days as 'Vale of Neath' has. Certain definitions (and I agree it is vaguely defined) do include locations that are more distant such as Henrhyd Falls. I see that the current article states (and has done since 2008 - erroneously in my understanding) that Waterfall Country is a nickname given to the Vale. I'd not have thought that the two were generally considered coincident but others will have a view - or be able to produce evidence to support or contradict what I say. What I would say is that, notwithstanding the Waterfall Country connection, this Vale of Neath article could be considerably enlarged with material relating to the vale as a whole. As it stands at present, it's pretty slim for such a significant valley. cheers Geopersona (talk) 16:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

All that said, there may in fact be an argument for merging the Vale of Neath and River Neath articles since much of the content of the latter relates to the wider valley rather than the river per se. There are arguments both ways and it would be interesting to hear others' views. I'm undecided presently myself. Geopersona (talk) 17:19, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for your input.

By definition "The Vale of Neath" does encompass the boundaries of Waterfall Country as set out in both article, as both the Hepste and the Mellte lay within the Neath's drainage basin. For me, this is part of the confusion in having two separate articles. Ystradfellte may not lay within the same county as Neath-Port Talbot (and is therefore, not included in the county's literature) but it is part of both The Vale of Neath and Waterfall Country.

I agree that the prominence of the name "Waterfall Country" is a factor, and needs to be discussed prominently, but isn't it more in-keeping with the protocol to have 'informal but popular names' within the 'formal name' article? eg. "English Riviera" has a redirect to Torbay. I would argue that "Waterfall country" is no more a relevant or popular a term as "English Riviera" and certainly no more worthy of it's own article.

You are right (Loathed as I am to use page view stats!). The monthly stats bare out the trend as 2-1 more people viewed Waterfall Country to Vale of Neath. However, my argument is that those people would be better served with a redirect to a Vale of Neath article with an extensive section on Waterfall Country/the falls themselves. You said yourself that the Vale of Neath article could be improved, and I heartily agree! for me, the issue is that people searching for information on Waterfall country are currently greeted with a discussion of boundaries and a "listy" body of text which basically gives no more info other than etymologies and some lovely pictures. Hyperlinks are great, but the vast majority of page visitors will not click them.

Finally, the Henrhyd Falls is illustrative of the issue at hand. The falls comes under the "On other rivers" section of "Waterfalls country", a section which could feasible extend to any water drop! (The Sychryd Cascade). As such, these inclusions must be accompanied by disclaimers, or brief explanations of their inclusion (see the opening summary of Henrhyd Falls), even when one of these "other rivers" (Aberdulais Falls) is actually nowhere near the "Waterfall country" (as defined in the summary as "area around the head of valley") but almost on the Neath itself!

Again, thanks for your input. I think you have many valid points and I if I've raised anything you disagree with, I'm only happy to discuss this further.

Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:35, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

You too raise many pertinent points and I think we are both of us agreed that the present situation could be improved upon. I'd agree that the English Riviera redirect is appropriate as the one maps onto the other but I don't see that same one-to-one mapping in this case but just some degree of overlap. Though the Hepste, Mellte etc are tributaries of the Neath, I'd argue that they don't fall within the Vale of Neath per se - the very name of Ystradfellte suggests that that river is considered to flow through a vale of a different name - the 'vale of the Mellte'. But I'd want to hear other voices contribute to this discussion before a decision is made to go down one road or another. Interestingly, re-reading FJ North's 1962 guide to the area reveals huge confusion in the past around the naming of parts (long before the name 'Waterfall Country' came into being) - the result of mapmakers from afar boldly (and wrongly) assigning names to watercourses, being unfamiliar with the area. The problem then, unlike now, was the area's remoteness. I'd be interested in your thoughts as to what the relationship between River Neath and Vale of Neath ought to be - there's a similar situation at Swansea Valley and River Tawe, and similar of course in many another location elsewhere in Wales and beyond. cheers Geopersona (talk) 07:27, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Hey, apologise for my late response.

Your argument that there is an underlaying confusion is precisely why I think the articles should be merged (with a significant explanation of the geography and terminology). However, I can't really argue against anything you've said here and so maybe it is better to go your way and keep the two articles separate, but improve the VoN article.

On your point regarding Ystradfellte/Vale of the Mellte, this is a common issue with Welsh/English topographic translations. As an example, the term "Taff Vale" was favoured in the Victorian era to cover all the Taff tributaries, including the Ystrad Rhondda, named for the Rhondda Fawr (itself a tributary of the Taff). In my mind an "Ystrad" is usually far smaller area than a "Vale", "The Vale of Glamorgan" is an officially defined geography, yet is in no way an Ystrad and is always (and more correctly!) translated as "Fro".

The issue as you've stated, is the ill-defined and unofficial usage of the terms. In my personal experience the terms "Neath Valley" and "Swansea Valley" are far better understood and useful (with places like Ystradfellte certainly not included in the Neath Valley). Both "Vale of Neath" and "Waterfall Country" are modern applications, probably as they simply sound more inviting to tourists!

Having looked at the Swansea Valley article, I can agree with your points, it's a similar situation (although one I know less about) and I would ask do the "Swansea Valley" and "Waterfall Country" articles need to exist?

Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:44, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.