Talk:Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2021

Regarding the item "Università Popolare degli Studi di Milno" I point out that there are many massive defamatory phrases. First of all, the Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano still has a "fully effective" authorization provision as stated in an order of the Council of State (the highest body of Italian administrative justice). Secondly, in Italy anyone who carries out a university activity (an activity that Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano has been carrying out for ten years) commits a crime that involves prison. None of the University managers went to jail and the university still carries out its university activity. I am a graduate at Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano and I work in the UK and the USA. What is reported on Wikipedia massively damages my image and compromises business of hundreds of thousands of euros! The sentence of the Italian Council of State that says "the ministerial act of 14 October 2011, to be considered as having persistent effectiveness" is contained on the official website of the Italian Administrative Justice. https://www.giustizia-amministrativa.it/dcsnprr (Ricerca avanzata > Insert the following words: la presa d’atto ministeriale del 14 ottobre 2011, da ritenersi munito di persistente efficacia The first sentence you will find: ORDINANZA CAUTELARE sede di CONSIGLIO DI STATO, sezione SEZIONE 6, numero provv.: 201501302 My career and business could suffer incalculable damage! Please remove the page. If not, I ask you to kindly provide me with the data of who wrote the entry. Thank you very much. Alessiavib86 (talk) 17:27, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

The article is well sourced, and we won't remove information because it could hurt your career prospects. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:49, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

But it was very helpful of you to provide the link to the Administrative Court of Lazio, where we find a very interesting document at N. 04338/2019 REG.PROV.COLL. N. 00487/2019 REG.RIC. dated 03/04/2019. This is an appeal by the "University" against the Ministry for University Instruction and Research, requesting that its 'award' of Masters Degrees should be accepted on the curious grounds that the Ministry had ignored a "certified email" (sic!) and therefore 'silent assent' should be assumed (!) The Ministry responded that no such right of 'silent assent' exists and affirms that

Italian:

Invero solo le Università degli Studi, statali e non statali legalmente riconosciute, istituite con decreto del Ministro dell’Istruzione nel rispetto della programmazione triennale del sistema universitario (cfr. art. 2, comma 5, lettera c) del d.P.R. 27 gennaio 1998, n. 25 e art. 1-ter del D.L. 31 gennaio 2005, n. 7, convertito in legge 31 marzo 2005, n. 43) possono rilasciare titoli di studio aventi valore legale, così come la denominazioni di università (degli Studi), ateneo, politecnico e istituto di istruzione universitaria, possono essere impiegate soltanto dalle Università degli Studi statali e da quelle non statali legalmente riconosciute (cfr. art. 10, comma 1, del D.L. 1 Ottobre 1973, n. 580, convertito, con modificazioni, dalla legge 30 novembre 1973, n. 766).

L’istituzione e l’accreditamento di nuove sedi universitarie può avvenire solo con specifico decreto del Ministro dell’Istruzione, dell’Università e della Ricerca nel rispetto di quanto previsto dalle linee generali d’indirizzo della programmazione triennale del sistema universitario citate e dalla disciplina in tema di accreditamento delle sedi e dei corsi di cui al D.lgs. 27 gennaio 2012, n. 19.

L’art. 2, comma 5, lett. c) del d.P.R. n. 25/1998, inoltre, stabilisce che l’istituzione di nuove università non statali legalmente riconosciute, nonché l’autorizzazione al rilascio di titoli aventi valore legale, venga disposta con decreto del Ministro contestualmente all’approvazione dello statuto e del regolamento didattico di ateneo.

which Google helpfully translates as

Indeed, only the legally recognized state and non-state universities, established by decree of the Minister of Education in compliance with the three-year program of the university system (see Article 2, paragraph 5, letter c) of the Presidential Decree January 27, 1998, n. 25 and art. 1-ter of the D.L. 31 January 2005, n. 7, converted into law no. 43) can issue qualifications with legal value, as well as the denominations of university (of Studies), university, polytechnic and university education institute, can only be used by state universities and legally recognized non-state universities (cf. art. 10, paragraph 1, of Legislative Decree 1 October 1973, no. 580, converted, with amendments, by law 30 November 1973, no. 766).

The establishment and accreditation of new universities can only take place with a specific decree of the Minister of Education, University and Research in compliance with the provisions of the general guidelines of the three-year program of the university system mentioned and the discipline on the subject of accreditation of the offices and courses referred to in Legislative Decree January 27, 2012, n. 19.

The court found against the appellant and ordered them to pay €2,500 towards the Ministry's costs of defending the action.

In a nutshell, you were suckered. And by bringing it here for discussion, you have increased its visibility. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:46, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

For the record, here is the official, full and up-to-date list of accredited/recognized universities in Italy, published by the Ministry of Education: https://www.universitaly.it/index.php/cercacorsi/universita?lang=en ("Other Options → University" drop-down menu). —Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 04:49, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

And more

In the course of an abusive rant (which has been reverted), an IP editor argues that the Italian list of accredited/recognized universities is not relevant because the UPdSdM operates as a foreign University, which Italian law allows under the Lisbon Convention. Unfortunately for that argument, the Judgement of the Court has addressed it explicitly and dismissed it:

Italian:

3. Ne consegue che l’istante, non rientrando nel novero delle università statali (e non risultando legalmente autorizzata al rilascio di titoli universitari aventi valore legale nello Stato, alla stregua di quanto rilevato) fa solo parte delle Università Popolari, le cui attribuzioni sono diverse da quelle delle Università degli Studi, istituite ai sensi dell’art. 1, punti 1 e 2, del T.U. 1592/1933.

In senso favorevole alla ricorrente non giova nemmeno il riferimento all’affiliazione con alcuni atenei africani dell’Università Popolare di Milano, che secondo quest’ultima fonderebbe la competenza al rilascio di titoli di studio aventi valore legale sul territorio italiano.

L’istituzione in Italia di una sede di una Università straniera deve avvenire nel rispetto delle procedure previste dalla legge 11.7.2002, n. 148 e dal D.M. n. 214/2004, conformi anche alla Convenzione di Lisbona: disciplina che prevede due presupposti: a) l’esistenza di requisiti specifici in capo alle dette istituzioni straniere, stabiliti dalla legislazione nazionale; oppure: b) l’esistenza di accordi specifici firmati con la parte cui appartengono tali istituti.

Nessuno di tali requisiti risulta in possesso dell’Università Popolare di Milano, che ha dichiarato di essere affiliata alla “University of United Popular Nations” del Burkina Faso.

which Google translate translates as

3. It follows that the applicant, not falling within the category of state universities (and not being legally authorized to issue university degrees having legal value in the State, as has been noted) is only part of the Popular Universities, whose attributions are other than those of the Universities, established pursuant to art. 1, points 1 and 2, of the T.U. 1592/1933.

In a favorable sense to the applicant, the reference to affiliation with some African universities of the Popular University of Milan, which according to the latter would base the competence on the issue of qualifications having legal value on Italian territory, does not help either.

The establishment in Italy of a seat of a foreign university must take place in compliance with the procedures provided for by law 11.7.2002, n. 148 and by the Ministerial Decree n. 214/2004, also compliant with the Lisbon Convention: a discipline that provides for two conditions: a) the existence of specific requirements for these foreign institutions, established by national legislation; or: b) the existence of specific agreements signed with the party to which these institutions belong.

None of these requirements are in possession of the Popular University of Milan, which has declared that it is affiliated with the "University of United Popular Nations" of Burkina Faso.

The judgment continues:

Italian:

noltre, i titoli rilasciati da Università straniere possono essere riconosciuti in Italia soltanto dalle autorità accademiche di Università degli studi dell’ordinamento Universitario Italiano ai sensi dell’art. 2 della citata legge n. 148/2002, in conformità a quanto previsto dalla Convenzione di Lisbona e dalla giurisprudenza della Corte di Giustizia dell’Unione Europea.

Peraltro, la convenzione di Lisbona, ai sensi dell’art. III.1 della legge di ratifica n. 148/2002, non attribuisce il diritto al riconoscimento automatico dei titoli di studio conseguiti in uno dei paesi aderenti alla Convenzione di Lisbona (nel territorio europeo), come peraltro costantemente ribadito dalla giurisprudenza.

La convenzione di Lisbona, infatti, si limita da tutelare l’interesse del richiedente ad ottenere un “adeguato accesso ad una valutazione di tali titoli di studio…”, stabilendo che la valutazione dovrà essere effettuata “sulla base delle conoscenze e delle competenze acquisite…” e senza discriminazioni per motivi di sesso, razza, colore, disabilità, lingua, religione, opinioni politiche, origini nazionali, etniche o sociali, proprietà, nascita o altro stato civile ovvero per motivi di altro genere, non attinenti al valore del titolo di studio del quale si chiede il riconoscimento.

L’art. 2 della legge n. 148/2002 individua l’organismo competente ad effettuare la valutazione di equipollenza dei titoli di studio stranieri nell’Università, che non è obbligata al riconoscimento del titolo di studio conseguito all’estero ove accerti che il richiedente non soddisfi i requisiti previsti dalla legge per l’equipollenza (cfr. art. 3 legge n. 148/2002).

Il successivo art. 4 della legge citata prevede che “l'applicazione dell'articolo VI.5 della Convenzione è disciplinata con successivo regolamento ministeriale ai sensi dell'articolo 17, commi 3 e 4, della legge 23 agosto 1988, n. 400…”. In adempimento di tale previsione è stato adottato il Regolamento n. 214/2004.

4. La Convenzione di Lisbona stabilisce, inoltre, che: “Ogni Parte può subordinare il riconoscimento dei titoli di studio di insegnamento superiore rilasciati da istituti accademici stranieri che operano nel suo territorio a requisiti specifici di legislazione nazionale o ad accordi specifici firmati con la parte cui appartengono tali istituti”.

which Google translates as

Furthermore, qualifications issued by foreign universities can only be recognized in Italy by the academic authorities of the University of the Italian university system pursuant to art. 2 of the aforementioned law no. 148/2002, in accordance with the provisions of the Lisbon Convention and the jurisprudence of the Court of Justice of the European Union.

Moreover, the Lisbon Convention, pursuant to art. III.1 of the ratification law n. 148/2002, does not grant the right to automatic recognition of qualifications obtained in one of the countries adhering to the Lisbon Convention (in the European territory), as is constantly confirmed by the jurisprudence.

The Lisbon Convention, in fact, limits itself to protecting the applicant's interest in obtaining "adequate access to an evaluation of these qualifications ...", establishing that the evaluation must be carried out "on the basis of the knowledge and skills acquired ... "And without discrimination on grounds of sex, race, color, disability, language, religion, political opinions, national, ethnic or social origins, property, birth or other marital status or for other reasons, not related to the value of the title of study for which recognition is sought.

Art. 2 of the law n. 148/2002 identifies the competent body to carry out the evaluation of equivalence of foreign qualifications at the University, which is not obliged to recognize the qualification obtained abroad if it ascertains that the applicant does not meet the requirements established by law for equivalence (see Article 3 of Law 148/2002).

The following art. 4 of the aforementioned law provides that “the application of article VI.5 of the Convention is governed by a subsequent ministerial regulation pursuant to article 17, paragraphs 3 and 4, of law no. 400… ". In fulfilment of this provision, Regulation no. 214/2004.

4. The Lisbon Convention also establishes that: "Each Party may make the recognition of higher education qualifications awarded by foreign academic institutions operating in its territory subject to specific requirements of national legislation or to specific agreements signed with the party to which these institutes belong ".

As I said, it was very kind of you to provide the link to that judgement. Your "degree" certificate is expensive toilet paper. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:21, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Basically, they are now saying they don't need to be accredited anywhere because they are "international". Oh well. —Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 13:29, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Please read, about MoDuLaTo, all the information are fake.

Please READ THIS Article from NY of Modulato that made the page: https://www.lavocedinewyork.com/news/first-amendment/2021/05/03/nella-giornata-per-la-liberta-di-stampa-riveliamo-chi-ci-minaccia-e-attacca-in-rete/?fbclid=IwAR2QUtrySW4c5INuDR51QVLyrV_4S9hxnloA6ampvk_sXxG1ORU-C5nmyxY
PLEASE READ IT. THANK YOU --151.34.148.198 talk‎ 11:18, 5 May 2021‎ ‎(UTC)

First, Modulato did not create this article: it is the work of many editors. The first wp:stub of the article was created by Adrin10 on 29 August 2017.

Second, as Wikipedia itself proudly says, wp:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Nothing in this article should be taken as fact, but only as a set of pointers to the facts. Every statement it makes is accompanied by a link to a wp:reliable source which contains information used to write it.

So we advise readers: if you are in any doubt about anything written in this article (or indeed any article on Wikipedia), follow the link to the original source and check for yourself that it actually says what we report it as saying. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:06, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I dunno man. I started reviewing interactions on the University of the People page. That's how I ended up here. And based on the linked article above, I did some checking.

The interaction tool shows interesting similarities between Adrin10 and Modulato.

Adrin10 edited this article 3 times. Modulato did so 47 times.

Adrin10 edited University of the People 60 times and Modulato 37 times.

Out of the 26 total edits to Yorker International University. Adrin10 made 5. Modulato made 12.

There were 278 edits to Supdi. This includes 24 by Adrin10 and 40 by Modulato.

Also, both accounts edited Rogeting.

This all seems like a very statistically unlikely event unless they're the same person.

The linked article also mentions Bianbum. Bianbum was the third most common editor on the Supdi article (15 edits). Bianbum is also blocked for sockpuppetry. The interaction tool report on the three accounts raises some serious questions. MasoYaki (talk) 15:31, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

i.e. the same old false accusations that were already dismissed by the admins who had checked the IP addresses: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Modulato/Archive. That being said, I'm not going to respond anymore to a brand-new recreated WP:SPA. Goodbye. —Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 18:19, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

So what we have is an ad hominem attack on the editors of this article, since all attempts to discredit the article content have failed. I really have to question your motivation. I notice that you became an editor just six weeks ago and your entire editing history is limited to adding institutions to List of universities accredited by DEAC without any individual citations, most of them not notable. T --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:28, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion about "individual citations." I'll start adding them today. If you have any other suggestions, drop them over there on the talk page. MasoYaki (talk) 14:16, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Usual WP:SPAMLINK from a website/blog that used to have a Wikipedia article, now deleted (they want the article back). —Mᵒdᵘlᵃtᵒ.📩 11:56, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Moved comment

I have moved the following comment from Talk:Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano - Wikipedia, which I think was intended to be here. Stifle (talk) 09:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

• What I think should be changed (include citations):

We are contacting you about the page posted on Wikipedia.org, (https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Universit%C3%A0_Popolare_degli_Studi_di_Milano) which does not provide content on an encyclopedic topic, but instead defamatory and illegal content. Private and sensitive data is also published on the site that is covered by the European GDPR regulations.

The creator of the page is a well-known individual who has repeatedly used Wikipedia for their own personal uses that have nothing to do with the knowledge and dissemination of culture, which are values specific to your esteemed organization. In addition, the same person has blocked changes to the page, becoming for all intents and purposes its sole owner.

Specifically, we would like to point out the most important points noted that constitute a serious violation of Italian and European laws.

1 - The Wikipedia page opens with a libel and false statement, where it states that the Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano (University of the People of Milan) is an unaccredited diploma factory that makes use of the word "University" for illegal purposes.

The falsity of this claim is proven by the documentation of the Italian State and precisely the Ministry of University Education and Research, which issued on 14/10/2011 a certificate, signed by the Undersecretary of State, Senator Guido Viceconte, where it is confirmed that the University of the People of Milan can issue academic degrees. More specifically, on behalf of the "University of United Popular Nations" based in Ouagadougou, an official partner of the Ouagadougou State University in the state of Burkina Faso, and the Bouakè State University in the country of Côte d'Ivoire, in accordance with the regulations set forth in the Lisbon Convention and current regulations.

2 - Under the heading "Degrees," the private name of the president is included, without authorization, and it is reaffirmed that the Ministry did not issue the accreditation, which is false, as we are in possession of the original documentation attesting to this.

3 - Names are cited without authorization and unconfirmed facts are attributed to the former Prime Minister of the Italian Republic, Romano Prodi, former President of the European Commission.

4 - The University of the People of Milan is defamed, with it being identified as a company that participates in multilevel marketing scams, claiming that it was involved in investigations when this is not true.

5 - The page describes Yorker International University, which has no connection with the University of the People of Milan given that it is a separate entity. Marco Grappeggia's personal email is also included, without any permission or rationale useful to encyclopedic articles such as those found on Wikipedia.

6 - In the paragraph entitled "Rectors of the Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano," inferences and defamatory opinions are drawn without any confirmation or sources concerning the person of Marco Grappeggia.

7 - The "Addresses and websites" section contains a list of addresses of private residences of people who have no proven correlation with the University of the People of Milan. In the same paragraph, further defamatory theories are also expounded without any real factual sources. For these reasons, which are only examples of a larger list, we call for the deletion of the Wikipedia page that has nothing to do with encyclopedic dissemination, and that has no benefit to users and represents personal, private, and derogatory use perpetrated and permitted through Wikipedia.

87.17.189.215 (talk) 09:20, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Recognition according to Italian law

I have reverted a claim by User:Francesco Giaccari that the the UPdSdM is "recognised in Italian law" who wrote

the status of the institution has been confirmed by the Italian Ministry of Education, University, and Research with Acknowledgment no. 313 of 14 October 2011 (published in the Official Journal of the Italian Republic, year 152, no. 146).

A legal case in 2019 puts this question beyond doubt, as the article explains:

In 2019, the court affirmed that Università Popolare degli Studi di Milano is not a university in Italian law, and that its degrees are not legally valid there. It dismissed the appeal, requiring the appellant to defray the Ministry's costs in defending the action.

So the assertion is false.

Sig. Giaccari's also added a reference to the Lisbon Convention, which is irrelevant because the Convention encourages mutual recognition of qualifications awarded by nationally accredited institutions. It does not confer any kind of accreditation.

The Convention stipulates that degrees and periods of study must be recognised unless substantial differences can be proved by the institution that is charged with recognition.

— Lisbon Recognition Convention#Aims

In the case of UPdSM, the "substantial differences" test would be highly relevant. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 12:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

References