Talk:Ukrainian–Soviet War

Ukrainian People's Republic of Soviets and Red Cossacks

The following phrase contains a mistake: because many Ukrainians served in the Red Cossacks (the army of the Ukrainian People's Republic)

Red Cossacks were the army of the Ukrainian People's Republic of Soviets, not of the Ukrainian People's Republic.

The Ukrainian People's Republic and the Ukrainian People's Republic of Soviets were two different states: the first one was autonomist (then independentist), while the second one had a pro-Bolshevik, pro-Soviet and pro-Moscow government.

In Soviet historiography

I would expect this war was erased from Soviet era research/books? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was never mentioned and forgotten --70.18.211.240 (talk) 20:15, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Dubious claims

February 9 and then carried out brutal reprisals against the Ukrainian civilian population,[2] killing as many as 4000 civilians

This claim originates from primary sources from the Civil War, particularly the Ukrainian nationalist-separatist side. It was then picked up by emigre literature such S. Melgunov's work, one of which is described as a tendetious pamphlet, not a scholarly source. The above statement violates rules on reliable sources and attribution. This is in contrast to how the massacres and looting perpetrated by the Petlyurists and Gaidamaki bands against the revolutionary forces are established historical facts, most infamously the Arsenal plant massacre.132.239.90.44 (talk) 23:17, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

And your references on this conclusion? The Encyclopedia of Ukraine is a reliable source which is used extensively on here throughout many topics. I highly doubt the link that you added to http://rg.kiev.ua is that. I have reworded the text into more neutral terms and as such, replaced your removal of cited information which is true. I can add more citations to prove this from many of my books on the history of Ukraine. Wikipedia is a neutral collaboration work, not a place to propagate one's political view or another. If it cannot be neutral, then I feel it must simply be removed otherwise there will be an endless edit war, as there is on oh so many topics on here anyway. --dsergienko (talk) 00:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

There are reports that a handful of the Gaidamaki thugs were executed without authorization, which would be expected given the savagery committed against the Arsenal workers, etc. The claim of a massacre perpetrated by Kiev is part of old, anti-Soviet agitprop originating in the Civil War and its immediate aftermath. Melgunov's notorious propaganda pamphlet contains this below, which is of dubious reliability. Not surprisingly, Ukrainian nationalist emigres reiterated such claims in their revisionist history:

«В британское консульство продолжают являться люди всeх классов, главным образом, крестьяне, чтобы засвидeтельствовать убiйство своих родственников и другiя насилiя, совершенныя «большевиками в неистовствe»... (Элiот -- КЈрзону 21-го марта 1919 г.). Причислены ли сюда жертвы «офицерской» бойни в Кiевe в 1918 г.? Их исчисляют в 2000 человeк! Разстрeливали и рубили прямо в театрe, куда военные были вызваны для «провeрки документов» — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.239.90.44 (talk) 00:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

One Ukrainian Republic - different governments

Conflict cannot be seen as conflict between states because the problem was not in the independent state but with the goverments. Both sides fought for Ukrainian Republic but both fought for different goverments - one allied with "democratic" Europe, another - allied with "democratic" Russia. After the fall of Russian Empire there was no goverment supported by all people at all. Some people don't like goverment for his alliance with Germans, others - with Europe and previous ruling classes, while others don't like goverment for his alliance with Russia (they really wanted indepence - from it). So to say more correct is to say about Civil War for Democracy and democratic goverment on the territories of that day Ukraine (newly-born Ukrainian Republic). All sides wanted Ukrainian Republic - and they got it, but in the form of Ukrainian Soviet Republic allied with Russian Republic in Soviet Union (which was not good to all of citizens - but to most part of them). Also we need to remember that a lot of Ukrainians fought in Red Army and Red Cossacks troops. Serge-kazak (talk) 22:22, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Terminology lame altogether

How we can talk about "Ukrainian-Soviet War" during 1917-1921 when Soviet Union was established only in 1922 and one of major entities who establish Soviet Union was Ukraine? It was civil war between forces that support bolsheviks and forces that support nationalists (actually far more complicated). It was internal civil war as it happens on all territory of Russian Empire does not matter what modern Ukrainian revisionists cry aloud. 220.237.0.150 (talk) 04:12, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

The Bolsheviks renamed Russia into the "Russian Soviet Republic" in early 1918 (see Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic), and the term Soviet appeared even before that, namely after the February Revolution in early 1917, so the title would mean that the fight was mainly between the Soviet Russia and Ukraine. —Kammerer55 (talk) 04:47, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

• Ucrania 1918.png
• Ucrania agosto 1920.png
• Ucrania junio 1920.png
• Ucrania marzo 1919.png
• Ucrania marzo 1920.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:23, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Name

Maybe this should be moved to Soviet–Ukrainian War so the entries are in alphabet order? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:56, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I concur. "Soviet–Ukrainian War" makes much more sense - it was Soviets who attacked. Constantine^hehe 05:14, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I support such a move, both alphabetically and because Soviet Russian side was the aggressor. I have renamed the page accordingly.--Sanya3 (talk) 03:48, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

I reversing this move. The primary source cited uses the former order of the parties. If there are other sources added to the article that support a different titling, we can open a requested move discussion here and try to gain consensus. UnitedStatesian (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

This Whole Page is Obviously Biased

This is not how historical reporting is done. It's not up to you to decide good guys and bad guys or present either of two non-state wannabe "governments" as more legitimate than the other - or either more legitimate than any of the other warring factions. The title itself is a misnomer. There was no Ukrainian-Soviet war, because Ukraine was not a state and Ukrainians fought on both sides and the USSR didn't even exist yet. The entire pseudo-country was factionalised and in-fighting as various groups struggled for power - all claiming to want an independent Ukraine, including Ukrainian socialists and Ukrainian Bolsheviks. All fighting over a territory which didn't even have defined borders until the Bolsheviks established them and most certainly could not be defined as a recognized State within those borders before that. Then you have the side-deals between your favorite factions and Poland, a country which hadn't existed for 150 years, and various meddling by Germany and Austria-Hungary. You have invented a "war" out of whole cloth. It doesn't even come close to the threshold of a war between nations. It was part of a larger internecine squabble those of us in the know like to call the Russian Revolution and peripheral to an actual full-scale war we call World War 1. The fighting could not rightfully be called a war of independence either, because it didn't win Ukraine independence - the collapse of the Tsarist government made everywhere within the former empire de-facto independent. All sides claimed to be fighting for an independent state and, perhaps not ironically, when Ukraine did eventually attain international recognition as an independent nation-state, it was under the auspices of the Soviets as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, a founding member of the USSR in 1922 and later a founding member of the United Nations in 1945, after the USSR had defeated Hitler and NAZI Germany in Europe - and Ukraine. These are simple facts. You need to state them, whether you are pleased by them or not. There are no good guys and bad guys. The one truism in war is that almost everyone thinks they are the good guys - including Adolph Hitler and Harry Truman and Julius Caesar and probably Genghis Kahn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:10AE:10:9E66:8CDB:FC70:2AF2:F2 (talk) 02:13, 25 January 2024 (UTC)