Talk:Torwali people

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: rejected by Yoninah (talk) 13:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Article is unstable due to ongoing edit warring

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the Torwali people inhabited the valley of the Swat River even before Buddhist era of the northwest Indian subcontinent? Source: "In Swat, seven languages are spoken. The major language is Pashto while Torwali, Gujri, Gawri, Qashqri, Ushojo and Badeshi are also spoken. Torwals are said to be one of the groups indigenous to the region, inhabiting the area before the Buddhist era."

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Oral Swigart

Created by Anupam (talk). Self-nominated at 21:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC).

• The article is long enough and new enough. I assume good faith on the offline sources. The information for the hook is directly cited. However, the lead needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD. I'm also fixing the hook as ALT0a: ... that the Torwali people inhabited the valley of the Swat River even before the Buddhist era of the northwest Indian subcontinent? SL93 (talk) 19:54, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
  • The hook goes back to the following quote: "Torwals are said to be one of the groups indigenous to the region, inhabiting the area before the Buddhist era" [1]. Some caution needs to be exercised about claims of such deep antiquity. Even if it weren't for the fact that it places the Torwalis into an era probably two millennia before any historical records about the people, and likely well before any historical records at all, the claim would still need to be reliably sourced by the standards for this topic: WP:HISTRS. Hearsay reported in the notes of a travel journalist doesn't come close to that.
    The article's other sources are not offline, they're both very much online. I've managed to trace the first to JSTOR 29756645, though it has very little to say about the Torwalis and hasn't been much used in the article. The other, main, source is Zubair Torwali's 2015 article in an online-only journal, and it's available at academicjournals.org/journal/JLC/article-full-text/CBBA2D553114. Now, I haven't formatted that as a URL, because I wouldn't have been able to: academicjournals.org is on the external links blacklist, which you will get notified about any time you try to save an edit introducing a link to it (I don't know how that has escaped the notice of the article creator). The reason is that it's a suspected predatory journal. This needs to be sorted out – either the blacklisting wasn't correct in the first place (in which case the website will need to be unlisted), or alternative sources for the article will need to be found. Regardless, we can't promote to DYK content that's almost entirely based on a blacklisted source. – Uanfala (talk) 22:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
    • I’m glad that you mentioned that information about the sources, but I mentioned that they were offline sources because there was no such indication in the article and I didn’t expect such a long-time editor to not include actual links when they are available. SL93 (talk) 22:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

User:SL93, thank you for your comments. I was using offline versions of the references, not the ones that were linked above. I have found many other sources that discuss the Torwali people. If I remove the one in question, could this article still be promoted or has that ship sailed? I look forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 01:08, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Anupam For this to be approved, the hook source would need to be changed to a better one based on the concern raised by Uanfala as well as replacing the predatory journal sourcing with something reliable. SL93 (talk) 01:33, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I see that the journal was replaced so that leaves one issue. I'm very hesistant to listen to the other issues raised by Uanfala because they admitted that they are not an expert on the topic. In response to any other issue besides the current reference, I would need an actual expert's opinion that agrees with the editor. SL93 (talk) 01:40, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Dear User:SL93, thank you for your reply, as well as for having a look at the article again. If you are aware of another reviewer who could have a look at the article, or if you have suggestions on how I can improve it, I would be happy to work with you on this. With regards, Anupam^Talk 02:54, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The predatory journal has very much not been replaced (there are still over ten cites to it in the present version of the article). Also, I'm a bit puzzled by the reference to expertise. If such is required from an editor who points out basic sourcing problems with a text, then shouldn't the same also be asked of the editor who contributed that text? – Uanfala (talk) 05:32, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

OK, by now the article has been rewritten so it doesn't use the blacklisted journal any more, and the original hook has been abandoned. Therefore, the two concerns above have been addressed. There's still a dispute over the History section though, and that's currently being hashed out on the talk page. – Uanfala (talk) 02:15, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

• I'm calling for a new reviewer. You two can hash it out amongst yourselves. I refuse to keep track of whatever happens here, on the article talk page, and on both of your talk pages while also dealing with the article's constant edit history. SL93 (talk) 05:54, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
• ALT1: ... that the tradition of telling folktales carries great importance in the culture of the Torwali people? Source: "Folktales play a critical role in the oral traditions of a community. These stories tell of the past of the community; its desires, how it deals with natural phenomena, and of course the social dialectics. They can also be good starting-points for further anthropological and linguistic research." Anupam^Talk 06:56, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
• ALT2: ... that the traditional music of the Torwali people is played using the sitar? Source: "Dwelling in an area famous for its natural beauty, the Torwali community has been overwhelmingly influenced by the visitors’ culture(s); and being unable to afford modern technology and outlets the music of Torwali is very prone to extinction. The main instruments played here are sitaar and pitcher." Anupam^Talk 06:56, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

• @Anupam and Uanfala: Because of the ongoing edit waring and neutrality concerns (H/t Fowler&fowler), I don't think we can accept this DYK at this time. --Guerillero ^{Parlez Moi} 22:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Issues with the text

This is a few notes about the current version of the article.

• The unclear citation to an "East and West" paper from 1983 appears to be the following:
  • Scerrato, Umberto (1983). "Labyrinths in the Wooden Mosques of North Pakistan. A Problematic Presence". East and West. 33. JSTOR 29756645.
• The article mentions a Hindu King named Raja Gira. I can't find any reliable sources talking of such a king as historical fact rather than legend. It appears that Raja Gira is only a name of a fortress, whose original etymology (rājā gṛha 'royal place') was lost and then popularly re-interpreted as the name of a king. (see p. 49 of http://journals.uop.edu.pk/papers/AP_v30_43to56.pdf p. 49)
• The article talks of the conquest by Mahmud of Ghazni, but the other supposed source of this article (Scerrato's paper, p. 27) explicitly paints this is a legend: "According to a deeply rooted oral tradition Mahmud conquered the fortress of Raja Gira thus marking the beginning of the Islamic conquest of Swat; (Stein, 1930, pp. 34-61); in fact there is no historical evidence to confirm this,"
• Then there's the passage:

  As such, by the 17th century, most of Swat's population converted from Hinduism and Buddhism to Islam. Many Torwali who remained Hindu and Buddhist fled to the mountains of Madyan.

  The source quoted in the second sentence here talks about the (possibly legendary) events after the advent of Mahmud of Ghazni, of the 11th century. The way they're presented in the text, it seems as though they happened subsequent to the 17th-century events mentions in the preceding sentence.
• The article's main source is Zubair Torwali's 2015 article at academicjournals.org/journal/JLC/article-full-text/CBBA2D553114. The publisher is on the external links blacklist, presumably because it's on Beall's List as a suspected predatory journal. This needs to be sorted out. There isn't supposed to be any content sourced to blacklisted journals, but even if it weren't for this, the article obviously isn't of a high academic standard. It may be fine for the descriptions of the traditional lifestyle (the author is Torwali himself), but it can't be used for claims about history. – Uanfala (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Uanfala, a simple search would have allowed you to see that Raja Gira is well documented in other reliable sources, which I am now adding to the article. The sources are clear that the fortress was named after the king, Raja Gira. Rather than adding tags to paragraphs that you're unfamiliar with, it would be best if you raised your questions on the talk page next time. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 00:34, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Have you actually consulted any of the sources you've been busily adding? Like, actually read the relevant chapters, evaluated their reliability and then synthesised the information? Or are you just going off what you see in the google books snippets? – Uanfala (talk) 00:37, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course, I am the one who wrote this article in its entirety before you, without checking, proceeded to engage in large deletions across multiple articles. Thankfully I was able to notice that and properly restore what you deleted. Given that I've found multiple reliable sources to support the statements herein, you will need to explain why you wish to remove them. The source you provide alone that calls Raja Gira legendary is not adequate unless their are other sources to buttress this claim. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 00:52, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts at improving this article. However, have you read those sources you're citing? Like, maybe you have physical copied at hand now, or maybe have read them in a library and have notes on them? Or are you just going off the snippets on google books? – Uanfala (talk) 00:59, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Asking such a question enters into not assuming good faith, which is what I'm going to do for an editor that has been praised repeatedly for editing India-related content. I assume good faith for you also, but I do realize that you're not an expert. SL93 (talk) 01:57, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, this is not an isolated instance, but a problem that I've repeatedly run into whenever Anupam has contributed text to articles about languages of South Asia and especially Pakistan (which is the one area where our editing interacts; here's one example). Every time I've seen misrepresentation of sources, and use of unreliable sources. My own AGF explanation for these has been that this is not deliberate, but the unintentional result of writing most of that content based on snippets on Google books, without consulting the context of those snippets, and without doing the background reading which would allow the evaluation of reliability. I may be wrong with this explanation, but that doesn't change the underlying problems with the text. It's certainly not my business how he approaches article writing, but when the results have consistently been problematic, then something there, whatever it is, needs to change. – Uanfala (talk) 02:16, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Uanfala I think that this should be discussed at Wikipedia talk:Did you know with a wikilink to this discussion. I don't see this getting anywhere otherwise. SL93 (talk) 02:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words User:SL93. I'm very grateful for them. User:Uanfala, it's funny that you link to that discussion, because on the very same page, you claimed there was an "absence of any evidence or reliable sources" that discussed Hindko-speakers in Afghanistan, and I was able to very quickly debunk that false notion with reliable sources. I never bothered to address what you commented in that specific section regarding Balochistan, but if I did, your unsourced claims regarding who those Hindko-speakers might be would probably be debunked. If you'd like to help improve this article, I'm going to ask you to propose your additions here, with sources and the original quotes that support them, rather than commenting your opinions about me on this Christmas Day. Thank you, Anupam^Talk 02:42, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The citation provided by Uanfala is from a journal called "Ancient Pakistan" and seems to suggest that Raja Gira was mythological (Pakistan itself was formed in 1947 and the land that falls in that country would have been a part of ancient India). I doubt the accuracy of Uanfala's statements as this Pakistani journal might be trying to play into that country's nationalist narrative of downplaying the historical Hindu past of the region, which is documented by Western scholars: "Pakistani historians creatively imagined Buddhist remains as evidence of Pakistan’s opposition to ancient ‘Brahmin’ [i.e. Hindu] influence long before the arrival of Islam."[2] ArvindPalaskar (talk) 14:43, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with this. Pakistan has a long history of tweaking with history to fit their own narratives and producing bogus narratives. A reason why I stay away from random Pakistani journals, unless written by critically acclaimed scholars.

However, the particular point is sourced from (1) a book by Alessandra Bagnera, who looks good and (2) Abdur Rahman's book which was a reprint of his PhD Thesis at Australian National University. So, we are fine. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:14, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

If you agreed with ArvindPalaskar then why did you go ahead and add that citation? I don't support its presence in the article either, as that contradicts other reliable citations that present the narrative as being factual. The citation by Dani should be removed per WP:History, we have newer sources for this topic. Using old sources that are out of date is not acceptable. Share what you want to add along with quotes from citations instead of adding unreliable citations to this article. LearnIndology (talk) 16:00, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Can't you see what I wrote after I agreed? What's your issue with Alessandra Bagnera? You want me to replace the source with Bagnera? Where were Dani in this version, you reverted? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:10, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Copy and paste the quote you want to add by Alessandra Bagnera here and I will look at it. I am quite familiar with their work given my academic specialization. LearnIndology (talk) 16:28, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Also articles like these (many are there) which reference Rahman. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:00, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Raja Gira

• I believe that the sources used here are from GoogleBookPreviewSnippets without necessary understanding of the background.

• Have the author of this article read Swat: An Afghan society in Pakistan: Urbanisation and Change in a Tribal Environment completely? The history of the entire region is very hazy and different aspects of the past has been extensively contested in different manners. Unlike the attempted reconstruction citing the book in a selective manner.
• Umberto Scerrato's article states:- '...According to a deeply rooted oral tradition Mahmud conquered the fortress of Raja Gira thus marking the beginning of the Islamic conquest of Swat; (Stein, 1930, pp. 34-61); in fact there is no historical evidence to confirm this, nevertheless Islamic presence on the basis of archaeological evidence on the fortress of Raja Gira is attested to on the basis of coins and ceramics at least between the end of the 12th and the 13th century (cf. G. Gullini, 1982; pp. 325-327...' This looks like an abuse of source like Talk:Persecution_of_Hindus#Timur.

• Why did the author of the Wikipedia aticle, while quoting Scerrato, erased out a significant intermediate line -- Islam finally established itself in Swat only with the invasion of the Yusufzai in the 16th century -- by ellipsis? Total misuse of source. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:24, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I have reviewed your edits and Anupam's version was much better. You removed sourcing from the article that presents the historical narrative of Raja Gira, along with the quotes in order to fit your narrative backed to your selective papers that assume it was a legend. If you looked more carefully, the fact that Islam established itself after the 16th century was present in the article with the sentence already: "by the 17th century, most of Swat's population converted from Hinduism and Buddhism to Islam". You shouldn't discuss quotes when you removed them from all the sources, making it tough for people to verify what you're actually saying. LearnIndology (talk) 15:32, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Why are you reverting my other edits totally, based on this? I have linked to the pdfs of the publications, removed poor sources, and added articles from jstor etc. Uanfala has noted of this, as well. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:06, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Reply to me in one place. This is too confusing for me to follow. LearnIndology (talk) 16:27, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

LearnIndology, we've got reliable sources that characterise King Raja Gira as legendary because of the absence of historical records. If you disagree with that, the way forward is to find other reliable sources that counter this argument. That would be sources that discuss the claim and either present historical records for the existence of a king with the name, or argue that his existence should be presumed even in the absence of such records. The way forward is certainly not to throw away the sources pretending they don't exist and replace them with another source that may at best only perpetuate the alleged legend. In your preferred version, the mention of this king is cited only to Swat: An Afghan society in Pakistan, but the quote given there from p. 61 is grammatically confused and unclear on whether the Raja Gira it talks about is a fort, a king, or both. And I'm not even sure how seriously this source can be taken (consider the fanciful Sanskrit etymology of Afghanistan on p. 60). – Uanfala (talk) 16:47, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Uanfala, can you provide the quote from a source other than the one from your "Ancient Pakistan" journal that describes Raja Gira as legendary? I will figure out how to work that into the article. LearnIndology (talk) 17:04, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

There's the quote from Scerrato, which has been provided twice here. It talks about Mahmud's attack on the fortress of Raja Gira as legendary, though it doesn't specifically mention the legendary king. – Uanfala (talk) 17:15, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Please paste the quote again here so I can look at it. I'll see how that can be neutrally added to the article. LearnIndology (talk) 17:31, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

There's also this thesis (Khan 2017): as far as I can see from a quick browse (pp. 34, 241), it treats Raja Gira the king as a legend, and derives the name of Raja Gira the fortress from rājagṛha. – Uanfala (talk) 17:35, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the question isn't the existence of a last Hindu king there, the question is whether he was named "Raja Gira" and whether he fought with the armies of Mahmud of Ghazni. It's the latter two assertions that are taken as legendary, not the first one. – Uanfala (talk) 18:06, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Since you didn't want to copy/paste the full quote that you are referencing, I went ahead and dug it up. The whole quote in context nowhere mentions that Raja Gira was a legendary king, but only that the attack on Raja Gira's fort may have been legendary:

According to a deeply rooted oral tradition Mahmud conquered the fortress of Raja Gira thus marking the beginning of the Islamic conquest of Swat; (Stein, 1930, pp. 34-61); in fact there is no historical evidence to confirm this, nevertheless Islamic presence on the basis of archaeological evidence on the fortress of Raja Gira is attested to on the basis of coins and ceramics at least between the end of the 12th and the 13th century (cf. G. Gullini, 1982; pp. 325-327). According to the 13th century Tibetan Buddhist O rgyan pa forms of magic and Tantra Buddhism and Hindu cults still survived in the Swat area even though Islam had begun to uproot them (G. Tucci, 1971, p. 375). Islam finally established itself in Swat only with the invasion of the Yusufzai in the 16th century, (Bellew, 1864, pp. 65-67; Raverty, 1878, p. 206); in any case at the beginning of the 17th century, even if the Tibetan Buddhist pilgrim sTag ts'an ras pa only records the ruins of Buddhism, and Islam then seemed established in lower Swat, it must nevertheless have been an Islam superficially accepted by the local population, some of the ancient traditions still being very much alive: near what is today the village of Udegram, sTag ts'an ras pa recounts, a feast was celebrated at which all the people sang, danced and drank all kinds of liqueurs (cf. Tucci, 1971, pp. 391, p. 416). The Torwali of upper Swat would have been converted to Islam during the course of the 17th century (Biddulph, p. 70).

I will fix the article based on this quote, but in the future, you should properly represent what the citation says. We are not going to use an unpublished PhD thesis by Khan for the reasons that ArvindPalaskar described here. LearnIndology (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Which (non-Pakistani, as per you) reliable source say that a king named so, existed apart from the Karachi City Press-GIDS one? Please give me a single line from the many articles and books produced by the Italian archeologists. Why do you think they discuss the Hindu Shahi spans and the castle in so much detail but don't name him? Nothing is over this 1970 book documenting Hindu Shahis. Raja Gira, if he existed at all, was some governor at best. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

LearnIndology, and Anupam, your preferred version of the article currently states the following:

The Hindu Shahi king of Swat, Raja Gira, was attacked by Mahmud of Ghazni in the early 11th century during the Islamic conquest of mediaeval India; as he was defeated, a mosque was constructed (third-oldest in Pakistan) and Islam went on to replace the Hinduism and Buddhism of the Torwali people. The historical evidence documenting the details of pre-Islamic phase in Swat, its encounters with Islam and subsequent Islamisation remains scarce; in 1983, Umberto Scerrato said that the conquest of the Torwali by the Ghaznavid Muslims has been passed down through oral tradition and may be legendary.

References

Now, the source used to support the statement about a king named Raja Gira is Swat: An Afghan society in Pakistan. First of all, and apart from any questions of reliability, the text of the source isn't clear on the issue – in the confused sentence mentioning Raga Gira, is that the name of the fort or of its defender?. I'm finding it also strange that you're willing to accept this text, one of whose co-authors is presumably Pakistani, but are then refusing to even consider a PhD thesis defended at a British institution because its author was from Pakistan. I would appreciate it if you made your mind up and choose either to have the cake, or to eat it.

So, there have been no reliable sources presented so far that treat a king named Raja Gira as historical, and the few reliable sources available either imply, or explicitly state that he's legendary. And yet, your version of the article text blithely presents him and his confrontation with Mahmud of Ghazni as fact, with only an afterthought about the comment by Scerrato, as though it were some kind of fringe opinion. That's topsy-turvy. With so much material available out there from the various Italian archaeological expeditions to the Raja Gira fortress, there should be at least some mention of a king with this name, if he indeed were historically accepted.

Also, the current version of the article has a photo whose caption is another statement about a king named Raja Gira, and it's sourced to a Dawn article. Come on, could we at least please agree on citing claims about history only to adequate sources? We got rid of the policy paper and the travel guide, and it's disappointing to see them immediately replaced with a newspaper article.

Fwiw, I don't see any need to mention Raja Gira at all – this is completely peripheral to the history of the Torwalis. But now that we're here, we might as well resolve this issue once and for all, as the same king is also mentioned, with similarly dubious sourcing, in the articles Malakand District, History of Malakand, and Swat District.

Could we try discussing some version of the start of the history section here, on this talk page, instead of editing past each other on the article? TrangaBellam, do you have a proposed version? – Uanfala (talk) 21:44, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Uanfala, I think the compromise version that User:LearnIndology suggested is adequate and I am not sure why you wish to remove al mention to Raja Gira everywhere when all authors thus far have discussed him. I have no issue with the nationality of any scholar as long as their statements do not conflict with the consensus of authors here. The source Swat: An Afghan society in Pakistan: Urbanisation and Change in a Tribal Environment clearly uses the pronoun who in reference to Raja Gira, stating "Raja Gira, the last Hindu defender of Swat, who was defeated after a long siege, built the fort." In plain English it is written that Raja Gira was a Hindu ruler who built the fort by his namesake. As such, this will stay in the article. Additionally, the reference authored by Pervaiz Iqbal Cheema states: "In 1021 A.D., Mehmood of Ghazani led an expedition in Bajour, Dir and Swat and Hinduism received its death blow in these areas. At that time, Swat was ruled by Raja Gira." We also have the Wadud of Swat stating that "The last of these, Raja Gira, ruled over Swat till the beginning of the eleventh century A. D. On a hill near Udigram, he built a big cantonment, the ruins of which can be seen even today." In light of these facts, there is no reason to remove this important piece of information from the article. As it stands now, the claim of this being an oral tradition is attributed to Umberto Scerrato; to balance this, I am open to attributing the information regarding Raja Gira and the Muslim conquest of Swat to Pervaiz Iqbal Cheema, Alain M. Viaro, Inam-ur-Rahim, and the Wadud of Swat, among others. I personally think this is unnecessary since the vast majority of authors have written about Raja Gira as a historical figure, not as a legendary one. However, I can accept this as a courtesy to you, User:Uanfala, and also to respect WP:ATTRIBUTION. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 22:35, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The full quote is The grand staircase leading up to Raja Gira, the last Hindu defender of Swat, who was defeated after a long siege, built the fort.. This is not a grammatical sentence in English, and you only get he clarity of your "quote" if you excise some of the words from it. And if you're happy with this source, despite your friend's reservations for scholarship by Pakistanis, then we'd need to bring back Khan's thesis (defended at Leicester) Exploring the Settlement Archaeology of the Hindu Shahi Dynasty (c. 822 CE to c. 1026 CE) in North-Western Pakistan – that's probably the most relevant source so far, and throughout its content it appears to treat the king Raja Gira as a legend.
The Cheema quote you present appears to be from Pakistan and Changing Scenario: Regional and Global published by the Islamabad Policy Research Institute. Correct me if I'm wrong but this quote is only a passing mention inside a text that's mostly devoted to contemporary politics. That's not reliable for historical statements. As for the Wadud of Swat, he wasn't a historian either, but a traditional ruler, and the quote appears to be from The Story of Swat as Told by the Founder Miangul Abdul Wadud Badshah Sahib to Muhammad Asif Khan. Notice the word told in there – this is oral history. The only fact that it corroborates is the one that's already accepted by everyone – that there exists a popular tradition about a king named Raja Gira. Again, I don't see how we can have a productive discussion if we are unable to stick to using reliable, historically appropriate, sources. – Uanfala (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The sentence is comprehensible to me; elsewhere, the text states "The place is now called Shandala, on a ridge between Udigram and Balogram, Raja Gira built his fort toward south of the old hilltop city." The source is clear who Raja Gira is. A simple Google search will show you that 99% of all sources treat Raja Gira as a historical figure, even ones by journalists such as the Dawn source that you dismissed. We can't just ignore the majority of sources because they disagree with your personal view and we already have an entire clause dedicated to your view that this may be oral tradition and legend. There's simply no way that he can be removed from the article. Even if he were simply legendary, he is important enough to the narrative of the people of Swat—so much so that the Wali of Swat wrote about him while telling the history of the area. Anyways, since we are both rigid in our views, let's see what others have to say and allow consensus to prevail. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 00:09, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Ah, yes, that book has this second mention of a king with the name. The full quote is The place is now called Shandala, on a ridge between Udigram and Balogram, Raja Gira built his fort toward south of the old hilltop city. Again, that's a mangled sentence (unusual in a text that's otherwise lucidly written), but you're right its reference is clear. However, my doubts about its reliability remain, and its mentions are only in passing. On an unrelated note, I still don't understand why this supposed king should be important here: the associated place is near Mingora, far away from any Torwali territories. And the fact that he's mentioned in a monograph-length account of the history of Swat does not automatically entail he should be mentioned in a single-page Wikipedia article about a contemporary ethnic group. – Uanfala (talk) 00:59, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

I support Uanfala in that LearnIndology needs to made his mind up and choose either to have the cake, or to eat it. I also support Uanfala in that the two lines concerned with Raja Gira over the Karchi-Press-GIDS book are (unusually) mangled and grammatically incoherent. I also seek an answer to my previous question. TrangaBellam (talk) 06:30, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

[This book https://www.worldcat.org/title/tajik-svati-va-mamlikat-i-gibar-tarikh-ke-ainah-men-tarikh-salatin/oclc/756221415?referer=di&ht=edition] mentions Raja Gira as a Hindu king and provides some biographical details. However, this is a very poor source from all aspects. TrangaBellam (talk) 10:29, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

It would be undue to give more weight to authors who say that the Raja Gira is just a story when almost all sources on the net present him as a historical figure. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 13:20, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Relevance - Torwal?

While we've been waiting for sources above, I've begun to wonder, are there any sources at all that discuss Raja Gira in connection with the Torwali people? The Raja Gira fortress is south of MardanMingora, and that's more than 50 kilometeres away from the nearest Torwali areas. The local oral tradition about the king would then presumably belong to the local Pashtuns, not the Torwali. I imagine the idea has been that the subjects of this supposed king were the ancestors of the Torwali, but are there any sources that make that explicit? I don't think this can be taken for granted, the modern-day Torwali aren't even the only ethnic group up in the valley. – Uanfala (talk) 18:26, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, we already have consensus that the information about Raja Gira will stay. What we are discussing now is how we will accommodate your request to add that one or two sources state that this is oral tradition, although this too, seems to have already been done. The Pashtuns did not even inhabit the region until the 17th century, User:Uanfala. Though you do not recognize the validity of the source by Zubair Torwali, The Ignored Dardic Culture of Swat certainly discusses him in relation to the Torwali as do the aforementioned sources that describe the history of Swat; Volume 33 of East and West is another source that mentions Raja Gira in relation to the Torwali people. The Torwali are the people native to Swat, before the influx of the Pashtuns, and Raja Gira was the king of Swat. Therefore, the relevance is obvious. Where battles take place is not of consequence here and besides, fifty kilometres is not far at all. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 18:39, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Anupam, it's really difficult to imagine how we could get anywhere if we can't agree on the basics. Yes, we need to follow WP:RS. That's a Wikpedia policy and it's not overridable by consensus between you and two other editors. The Ignored Dardic Culture of Swat is an article in a predatory journal that I can't even link to because it's on the spam blacklist – we discussed that at the top of this page and I thought we were already past that stage. No, we can't use unreliable sources for statements about history. And yes, we need to at least be able to agree on what each source is actually saying. Volume 33 of East and West is Scerrato's paper, also discussed above (if you can't access it, the relevant passage has been quoted by LearnIndology above). Where exactly in that paper do you see a connection being made between Raja Gira and the Torwali? – Uanfala (talk) 19:00, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Uanfala, actually, there is a consensus here and it's time for you to drop the WP:STICK. I only pointed out that source, which is now nowhere in the article, to demonstrate that Raja Gira holds personal importance for the Torwali people; other such websites written by local Torwali lay historians demonstrate the same. The article as it stands now is backed with many references that demonstrate that Raja Gira was the ruler of Swat, the home of the Torwali people. Oral tradition or not, it belongs in the article and your request has already been accommodated. As I wrote this article, I do have access to Volume 33 of East and West, which states "Islamic presence on the basis of archaeological evidence on the fortress of Raja Gira is attested to on the basis of coins and ceramics at least between the end of the 12th and the 13th century (cf. G. Gullini, 1982; pp. 325-327). According to the 13th century Tibetan Buddhist O rgyan pa forms of magic and Tantra Buddhism and Hindu cults still survived in the Swāt area even though Islam had begun to uproot them (G. Tucci, 1971, p. 375)." The journal makes explicit reference to the fortress of Raja Gira and uses that as "archaeological evidence" when discussing the conversion of the Torwali people to Islam from Hinduism and Buddhism. The very same source states that the origin which is now described in the article is "deeply rooted oral tradition"; don't you think the words "deeply rooted" indicate that it is extremely important to the Torwali people? How can the source be more clearer about the connection? I find it extremely odd that you wish to remove the one small sentence in this article that I wrote that mentions Raja Gira; the articles dealing with the region that were written by other editors too all mentioned him as well, before you took it upon yourself to remove him while leaving mountains of uncited paragraphs in those articles. Anupam^Talk 19:22, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

What is Torwal? Here is Google map of the present-day Swat district. Odegram is near Mangora, and it appears as the entry point to the region guarded by a strategic fort (or several such). Is the entire Swat valley above it called "Torwal"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:14, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen this term used, but the Torwali-speaking areas don't begin until after Madyan, 50 km up the valley from Mingora. – Uanfala (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Good. You wrote "Mardan" earlier. So I was confused. I have now added a solid source describing the geography. A lot more material can be taken from here, if people are genuinely interested. I am outta here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Ooops, I was thinking of Mingora when I wrote "Mardan" about the place near the fortress: I've corrected it now. Madyan, up the valley, is where the Torwali areas start. – Uanfala (talk) 16:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Though I still see the relevance of the text myself, I went ahead and removed it per your wishes, User:Uanfala and User:Kautilya3. I hope this is resolved now, though if there are still issues you see, feel free to edit the article further. With regards, Anupam^Talk 21:37, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I see that User:Fowler&fowler, without commenting here or reading anything, has started to edit war; User:Fowler&fowler, are you aware that my most recent edit was to instate the edits recommended by User:Kautilya3 here? Do you realize that User:Kautilya3 just thanked me for my edit? Please stop or you will be reverted. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 22:54, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I guess the problem was that you expanded the quotations in the cites. I have cut them back a little now. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:12, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't excuse User:Fowler&fowler's out of the blue and infantile revert of a version that you actually suggested; he undid my edits without even knowing what he was reverting, for which he should be ashamed. User:Fowler&fowler's comments where he is actively editing now at a high-traffic article are evidence that he should be the last person commenting on articles about South Asian ethnic groups. Anyways, thank you for adding a nice image to the article. Best wishes, Anupam^Talk 00:48, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Some comments

• The last Hindu Sahi ruler that was deposed by the Ghaznavids was Bhimapala.
• Here is a pretty comprehensive thesis on Hindu Sahis, which has a section on Bhimapala. Regarding "Raja Gira", he says:

A little further upstream in the same valley Stein visited the place called the fort of Raja Gira who, according to the local legend, was the last Hindu ruler of the place and was defeated by the forces of Mahmud of Ghazna.[7] In recent excavations the site has yielded the same series of coins as found at Barikot[8] and must be considered contemporaneous with the latter. (p.267)

• In a more recent paper [3], he suggests that "Raja Gira" must be Rajagadha, which got corrupted in the local folklore.

So, I am afraid this whole story of "Raja Gira" being the last Hindu Sahi must go. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:09, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

References

User:Kautilya3, are you arguing that a deeply held oral tradition the Torwali hold with regard to their origin, deserves no mention on the Wikipedia article about them? Please kindly clarify. I'm pinging User:Fylindfotberserk here as well, who is an experienced contributor to South Asian ethnic group articles. Thank you, Anupam^Talk 22:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, well, I know lots of Hindus with deeply held beliefs about Rama flying in an airplane, or maybe it was a flying saucer. No, this kind of stuff doesn't belong in Wikipedia. We only use WP:HISTRS for historical facts. Besides, the current text doesn't even say that anything is an "oral tradition".

That source from the Institute of Developmental Studies or whatever that you have used is also very naive. Not at all a HISTRS. Do they know that Mahmud had plenty of Panjabi Hindus is his army, even generals? The idea that he said "convert or be killed" is ridiculous, fit for only an Amar Chitra Katha story. It also looks like an WP:SPS to me. No respectable publisher will publish this kind of crap. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:10, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Kautilya3, why do you think academic journals discuss the oral tradition of the Torwali people, which are then peer-reviewed? Do you think that discussing the beliefs of ethnic groups violates WP:HISTRS? How is this any different from the mention onthe article about Pashtuns that they believe that they are descended from ancient Israelites? Rather than deleting the entire text, it makes much more sense to mention the account as being a part of Torwali oral tradition. Can you accept this? I look forward to hearing from you. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 23:19, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

In the first place, the oral traditions must be extremely compelling to be included. (See, e.g., Somnath#History). Secondly, you can't narrate oral traditions to the exclusion of authentic history. Oral traditions should be duly underweighted if at all they are included. And, they should be attributed and cited as such. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Note also that this site was occupied from the 3rd or 4th century BC. There are remnants of Buddhist stupas in there. It wasn't built by the last Hindu Sahi ruler, whatever his name might have been. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Kautilya3, I certainly agree with you on the importance of attributing oral traditions. Since you've taken an interest in this article, would you like to take a shot at adding the attribution? I would be happy to see what you come up with (and hopefully others here will agree with it too). I look forward to hearing from you. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 23:37, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so Anupam. This seems to require too much effort for too little gain. The people of Swat are said to be "fanatical Muslims" even if only recent converts. They did plenty of damage in the First Kashmir War. I am not interested. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Kautilya3, thank you for your reply. I will try to make some edits to the paragraph. Perhaps User:Uanfala can refine it further if he isn't satisfied with my improvement. I hope this helps. At any rate, thanks for the additions to the article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:47, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Uanfala has questioned the very relevance of this content to this article in the section above. I think he is right. So the POV tag stays until this is resolved. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:11, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I have been trying to work out a compromise with you on this User:Kautilya3 and others here too supported attribution, as I thought you did above. Please kindly edit the article to your satisfaction so that this can be resolved. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 20:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Like everybody else here, I don't know anything about the traditional histories of the Torwalis; all I see is that no reliable sources have come up in this discussion that support a connection (either within the Torwalis' own narratives, or from those of outsiders). Anupam earlier linked to a website where a Kalami story presents Raja Gira as an ancestor of the Kalami people, so it's not far-fetched that he may also have relevance for the Torwalis. But we need to have decent sources documenting that relevance. – Uanfala (talk) 21:03, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately, all the comments of this section are out of the window now, because it has come to light that they are based on false identifications, between Torwalis and Swat, between Swat and Hindu Shahis, and between Hindu Shahis and Raja Gira. So I am going to close this section. It is now irrelevant. The active talk section right now is the one above this. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I am reopening this section, because it seems likely that the Torwalis occupied lower sections of the valley in the past:

Though they speak two distinct languages, they are generally lumped with other mountain people under the name Kohistani. They have a tradition that they formerly occupied the more fertile areas to the south, and have been identified with at least a section of the old Buddhist population (Stein, 1929). The Kohistani languages belong to the Dardic language family (Barth & Morgenstierne, 1956) and are thus related to those of Gilgit and Kashmir.

This needs further investigation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, before the advent of the Pashtuns, the lower valley was likely occupied by the ancestors of the Torwali and the Kalami, no argument about that. – Uanfala (talk) 17:07, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• Arvind pointed out the possible problems with the journal that you cited K3. I could still agree to what you both are proposing concerning attributing the material as legendary. The fact that the Torwali revere Raja Gira and the fort he is said to have made is enough to say that this deserves mention in our article. LearnIndology (talk) 05:02, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, the fort is called "Raja Gira's Fort" and Raja Gira is legendary. By the way Hindu Sahi capital was at Udabhanpura near Attock, in the plains. Even if somebody called "Raja Gira" existed, nothing says that he was a Hindu Sahi. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

References

Issues

What are the issues with this version? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:04, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Why are you commenting in three different places on this talk page about the same thing? Anyways, I fixed up your revision and took out what is disputed. It is better now. LearnIndology (talk) 16:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks.

Why have you taken out the JSTOR link from ref 4 in this version? Do you believe the articles are different? Where does this source claim them as 'natives'? Can you give me a quote?

What's the issue with claiming them as earliest migrants (Source 5)? Or do you believe Himal to be a better source? Or, are you going to raise the Indigenous Aryans issue?

What is a native religion? You have added the word. Do you know that even Hinduism replaced (as well coexisted with) Buddhism which replaced something which replaced .....? Which sources state that their "native religion" was H/B?

Once we solve these issues, we will come to the note. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:41, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

It's a well-known fact that Hinduism and Buddhism are Indian religions native to the Indian subcontinent. Arguing otherwise means you're not familiar with the region. You can go ahead and add the JSTOR link back. I didn't remove it intentionally - I just copied and pasted the original citation from the original revision, which restored the quote you deleted. LearnIndology (talk) 16:58, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. So no issues about migration.

Now, do you realize that "Hinduism and Buddhism are native to India" and "native religion of all South Asian people were either Hinduism or Buddhism" are quite different? TrangaBellam (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:19, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

This is resolved, then. Also, "of the Torwali people" is redundant and reads poor.

We will discuss the last issue (my note) in the above section since Uanfla is participating there. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:53, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I see that you (LearnIndology) has accused me of misrepresenting sources and claim that the citation references to "Tantra Buddhism and Hindu cults".

My citation was this JSTOR article and particularly pg.140. Let's see what it says.

...As aptly summarized by Tucci (1977), side by side with the spread of Brahmanism and the Vajrayana, we also witness a revival of aboriginal cults belonging to agents and cultures that the Buddhist centres had controlled and managed but, we think, never converted. Other evidences of a 'Kafiri' culture came out from the Raja Gira graveyard (see Bagner)...

So you claim that the aboriginal cults being revived was Hinduism? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:24, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

The authors of your citation say we think. Since they don't know, it probably shouldn't be added here since it's a speculation. What we do know for sure is that they were Buddhist and Hindu so only this is fit for inclusion in the article. LearnIndology (talk) 14:38, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Read the line once again. The line has two distinct parts — the author is certain about one (which I added) whilst ambiguous about the other (which I hadn't added and don't plan to, either). TrangaBellam (talk) 20:35, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Lede

Merry Christmas User:LearnIndology and User:TrangaBellam! While I was opening gifts from Santa Claus this morning, you both were busy editing the article! I am fine with your changes for the most part. However, User:TrangaBellam, I will be restoring much of the lede that you removed. The DYK reviewer, User:SL93, specifically requested that "the lead needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD." In accordance with this, I will be reinserting the information from my revision into the lede. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 20:17, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I failed to notice that the intro was truncated so much. Yes, thanks for restoring it. LearnIndology (talk) 20:32, 25 December 2020 (UTC)