Talk:Tom Wills

Untitled

There is, in this talk page, a great deal of absolute rubbish. For an accurate understanding refer to the book "The Currency Lad" published 1997 described as "A biography of Horatio Spencer Howe Wills 5 October 1811 to 17 October 1861 and his immediate family 1797 to 1918" This book uses contemporary letters, documents , daguerrrotypes, paintings and photographs. It was produced from the Wills Family archives by T S Wills Cooke in 300 odd pages with corrections for factual errors (including T W Wills birthdate) in the second edition 2007

Gundagai

Tom Wills was born near Gundagai. Check the NSW BDM online 'Historical Indexs'. There were two 'Toms' born to the same parents. The first one must have died and it was common naming convention to reuse the same name for the next son if there was death, as many families named their children in a certain set order after members of previous generations so some children's names were pre ordained for the first born that survived. Tom Wills was apparently named for his uncle, the brother of Horatio Wills. Tom Wills' family say he was born near Gundagai. They published a book years ago that says that. Members of the Wills family still live in the area. Cootamundra Museum also verify that Tom Wills was born near Gundagai (and near Cootamundra). That Tom's parents lived in the Coota/Gundagai area in the 1835-9 era pre them moving to Ararat is recorded in one of the early newspapers in the Ferguson Collection online when a letter to the editor reported from Gundagai (then called 'Murrumbidgee'), that the Wills house was raided by bushrangers in about 1836 and these bushrangers told Tom's Mum that they knew her b-i-l was a judge (which he was). I have a copy of that newspaper extract somewhere so will put its date and URL here later when I find it. That extract firmly locates Tom's Mum at Gundagai and Tom could not have been born without her involvement - dont u think?

Also, Thos. Townsend, Assistant Surveyor in a letter to the Surveyor General of the Colony of NSW on 21 August, 1839; when reporting back from his task to map the route of the now Hume Highway, locates "Horatio Wills Station" as between Cootamundra and Gundagai.

NSW State Archives 39/42 in Cliff Butcher 2002 'Gundagai: A Track Winding Back' self published by Cliff Butcher. pp 76-77

Wagga library has a copy of that book. That book by Cliff Butcher must be reliable as he got an Order of Australia Medal for his efforts at recording local history though he was just an accountant. The Surveyor General of NSW and NSW State Archives are very reliable sources and have way more veracity than any Dictionary of Biography as they are core sources. You cannot get more reliable than core sources. If Geoffery Blainey wants to claim I was born in Brisbane should that be accepted by Wikipedia when I was not born in Bris.

Why does someone keep changing Tom Wills birthplace back to Parramatta? He was born near Gundagai/Cootamundra as others here have put and as the records show was where his family lived. His birth may have been registered at Parramatta Court House but that in no way indiactes he was born at Parramatta. I will put Toms birth rego number here later and if someone is near a larger birth registry than I have access to they may go have it checked.

Tom's birth rego number is: V1836258 47/1836.

That number will probably just show he was the 47th birth registered in that district for 1836 if checked. It in no way is about where he was actually born.

Wikiproject requests and responses

I've posted a pointer to your comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cricket. Tintin (talk) 10:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Some sources (eg. [1]) say Molonglo Plains, which I think is near Queanbeyan. A few others say Gundagai or Cootamundra on the other side of current day Canberra, and some say Parramatta. Geoffrey Blainey's A game of our own would be an excellent source but alas I don't have it. Here's a map. -- I@n ≡ talk 14:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Why is Geoffery Blainey's source excellent? If GB had believed incorrect stuff and rewritten that, its not an excellent source. Best to believe Toms family account of where Tom was born and other first hand records such as the Surveyor General letter. There are lots of coverups re anything to do with colonial Gundagai as it is a highly highly significant Aboriginal place that the colonials tried to hide the existence of as a part of dismantling Aboriginal culture as part of European invasion.

• I think in terms of reliable sources, we would have to take the Australian Dictionary of Biography as an authority:

What is the AustDicBio's reference for this Wills material? Is that reference reliable? Its pointless referencing unreliable sources that are then legitimzed because they have appeared in a supposedly legitimate source. Best to ask an Australian Uni with a strong Aust History Faculty as a refereee if sources such as NSW BDM and the Surveyor general are discounted as sources.

I would never reference the Australian Dictionary of Biography in any university level work as being reliable if its talking about colonial Australians unless I first triple checked all its sources thus went back to core sources which would delete AustDicBio as a reference.

adb entry. The MCG gives the same details - presumably the same source. His birth details should thus be "born on 19 December 1835 at Molonglo Plains, New South Wales"--A Y Arktos\^talk 22:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. -- I@n ≡ talk 01:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• I have a book on cricket which has significant biographies of significant figures in cricket which also cites Molonglo Plains as his birthplace. Capitalistroadster 03:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC) That book may have got its info from AustDicBio which isnt a core source.

Burra confusion?

The confusion may be because of the word 'Burra'. There is a 'Burra' at Molonglo. 'Burra' means kangaroo. So, where there were Aboriginal landscape and/or environmental features that indicated 'kangaroo' this would be 'Burra' or 'Burra Burra' meaning several kangaroos. 'Someone' may have read that Tom was born at Burra and thought "Oh, that is Burra near Canberra". Its a wonder people arent claiming that Tom was born at Harden/Murrum.burah (path of kangaroo), or at Burra in Sth Australia or Burra in WA, rather than Molonglo or Parramatta. Note on the map on this site, there is no Gundagai. Some think Gundagai does not exist so easy to say Burra near Canberra if telling a UK person where Tom Wills was born as most in UK would know where Canberra is. Canberra is the 'capital'. Gundagai is also the capital and they did intend at one point to place modern day Canberra at Gundagai or in the immediate Gundagai/Tumut area but decided that was being a bit too obvious. Easier, if a person lives in Sydney and doesn't undertsand BDM records and registration of births in Oz pre 1856, to say that Tom was born in Sydney.

The Australian Dictionary of Biography isnt a reliable source. NSW BDM is. The best source though is also the letter to the Surveyor General from the Ass Surveyor General, coupled with where Mrs Wills was at that time plus the BDM records plus the Wills Family own records and input.

Noting birthplaces such as Parramatta or Molonglo only indicates the registery where the birth was recorded (not actual birthplace) pre 1856. Post 1856, when formal records began to be kept, birth PLACE was generally noted as most registrations were church ones and each church had its own distinctive birth regi code that was assigned to the birth reg number. Pre 1856, there was a six month time allowed between birth and registration. Thus, Tom could have been born at Gundagai in for example May, and as long as the birth was registered by November (registered at Molonglo or Parramatta or somewhere) then the registration was accepted. Toms family say he was born near Gundagai. Mr Wills the judge was at Parramatta in that era. He was Toms uncle or great uncle.

Just where Molonglo really was is open to debate too. Just because these days its near Canberra does not mean it was near Canberra (not that the ACT existed then), in 1836, or that there were not multiple Molonglos. 'Murrumbidgee' is a generic term for river so really, there are "Murrumbidgees' all over. Also, to hide some Aboriginal culture, the colonials moved some features. Strzelecki's Mt Kosciuszko is a prime example of this. Its very clear when anyone reads where Strz went, that he went to near Gundagai yet later, to hide important Aboriginal places, they moved where he went to past Albury. This moving places is all to do with the massacres that happened, colonialism, etc. All that said, Molonglo may be where it is today, and the birth was registered there (though not meaning Tom was born there). Molonglo in the 1836 era did have a facility to register the birth. Gundagai did not as Gundagai in 1836 was not gazetted so offically was still Aboriginal land though occupied by 'squatters' or lot holders acting on behalf of other higher up Europeans, who by then had deleted a lot of the Aborginal people in the area.

Wills family again

Re the Wills family massacre in Qld, (the Wills left Gundagai in 1839 and were the first European settlers to Ararat naming Mt Ararat, then moved to Qld in about 1859), the Native Police in that area of Qld at the time of the Wills family massacre, were all from Gundagai/Murrumbidgee under the leadership of Frederick Walker a European who had links back to Gundagai and the trade happening at Gundagai for many years pre the Wills Massacre.

There is more to this than is that well known. Its about Aboriginal/European contact history so lots coverups.

Gundagai again

Tom Wills was born near what is now called 'Gundagai' no matter what others may want to claim about a highly significant Australian sporting person and this is recorded in the offical records of NSW such as NSW BDM and NSW State Archives.

Mine says "Molonglo, near Canberra" too. – AlbinoMonkey ^(Talk) 05:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Albino monkey I see u are at USyd. I am a grad from a couple of unis and currently at a G8 one. That Molonglo entry is about birth registration, not birth event. A car can be born in Adelaide but first registered in Sydney. That doesnt mean it was born in Sydney though. It seems someone wrote 'molongo' once and everyone else copied it. If writers copy what others put it saves them having to research stuff. I go back to primary sources rather than believing much at all I read in books especially a lot of sports books about past times. Those sorts of books are just about serving content up rather than being exercises in historical accuracy. Gundagai was 'discovered' by the Europeans from Molonglo. In reality it wasnt but that is what is claimed. 'Molongo' can refer to Gundagai because if anyone wanted to come to Gundagai in that era, they had to go see Mr Throsby et al and ask permission. Though this area had ordinary Europeans in it in the 1830s, it was under the control of 'Lords' and operated similiar to how feudal kingdoms did. The Europeans had been accessing Gundagai for many many years pre offical discovery by coming up the Murray and also in through the south coast. Blue gums. Kara. Gold. Copper.

We have reliable sources saying Molonglo. If an extract of his entry at the NSW Births Deaths and Marriages can be scanned and posted here, then that would be excellent and a worthy addition to the article as well. -- I@n ≡ talk 06:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Tom's birth rego number is: V1836258 47/1836.

I put Toms birth number above. Its from NSW BDM.

Its not that appropriate to put up peoples full birth record even if they are long deceased. I doubt if anyone but the Wills family could obtain a full extract and going on what was in the book they wrote about Tom noting his birth near Gundagai/Cootamundra, they may have done that. The online extract shows nil other than the births of the two Thomas Willis with accompanying reg numbers, and the parent's first name, second inital and surnames.

You are not listenting to what I am saying re pre 1856 births. The records of these births show where the birth was registered, not necessarily where the birth occurred. The birth may have been registered at Molonglo but that does not mean it happened there. In fact the birth happened near Gundagai. It was registered at Molonglo or at Parramatta though within 6 mths of the birth as required. Pre 1856, births were registered at court houses, (many people didnt register births at all though). Post 1856, the churches took over registration and the records of births show what church in what location registered the birth which gives some indication of birthplace. Even these locations may have been inexact though. Some familes got 6 kids at a time registered when the Minister did his 5 yearly rounds to the less settled regions. Remember, Australia in this era was a nation newly invaded and undergoing massive change, including expanding settlement by Europeans which meant those in outer areas of settlement had no churches, no court houses and in many cases, not even a pencil to record anything let alone a birth. My Mum b.1908, wrote on real slate as a school slate, with soapstone and they sewed some things with the barb out of a large aloe plant. That is just 100 years ago. Tom Wills was born 164 years ago, (just a few kilometres from that same aloe plant).

Response re Reliable sources and birth certificate ?

• I hear and sympathise with the editor posting about his family history. The issue would be is a birth certificate a more reliable source compared with the Australian Dictionary of Biography. Presumably the ADB researcher had access to the BDM as well as other sources. Wikipedia has only a few policies - No original research, [[|cite reliable sources, WP:Verifiability. Citing a reference such as the Australian Dictionary of Biography allows us to meet those policies. It is properly researched. It doesn't mean it is 100% accurate, but the refutation of that accuracy is difficult.

Question for the anon editor - do you have copy of the birth certificate? The number is only a reference. The certificate will contain some detail, perhaps including place of birth, midwife, older siblings (including deceased siblings), parents place of marriage (not always reliable I know from my own genealogical studies, ... If you have a copy would you be prepared please to transcribe it for us? If you don't have a copy of the certificate, then family oral history is not sufficient to refute the ADB.--A Y Arktos\^talk 08:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Recording history is a highly highly political activity. This means that often, what is recorded (even if from seemingly credible secondary sources), is totally incorrect or at best three steps away from reality and that is done deliberatly for various reasons. Anyone who has studied history knows this. Any book that contains historical information may be full of deliberate errors. I dont care for any book that does not note primary sources such as birth certificates and NSW Archives documents with accompanying archive file numbers. I accept the letter from an 1830s era paper I have that mentions Mrs Horatio Wills in it as being correct as that letter was written to lobby for a response in the Gundagai area to the bushrangers getting about, not for any political purpose re Mrs Horatio Will, (Toms Mum). I still havent looked for this letter to note its reference here but will.

No I dont have a copy of Tom Wills birth certificate. I am not a member of Toms family so would not seek that certificate. Toms family have posted online where he was born (near Gundagai). They also did that in the book they published about their famous family member. I think families know their family details better than others and can access their family records re birth etc to verify details but its pointless if others who are not family then come along and turn family facts into fiction either by accident, laziness or just by design. Its unusual that a book such as the Aust Dictionary of Biography would be accepted over a primary source such as letters to the Surveyor General by the Ass Surveyor General. When I studied Aust History three years ago it would have been the official NSW Records and books published by family who had access to full birth certificates that were used to verify details not books such as the Aust Dictionary of Biography which at best is a secondary source but really a third of fourth of fifth hand source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs)

It is true that the BDM index lists two Thomas Wills born to the same parents, one in 1835 and one in 1836. Certificates for these births can be obatined from the registry by anyone who is willing to pay, not just family. At the moment, all we have is that historians who have researched this have reached various conclusions, the most serious one appearing to be that he was born at a place called "Molonglo Plains". The certificates may suggest otherwise, but unless they make it very clear, using them would possibly be "original research". However, you did mention that the family had written a book about Tom Wills. If you gave some details of this book, it might be a decent source. JPD (talk) 10:36, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

A copy of this book is in the Gundagai Museum if anyone is going through Gundagai or would like to ring them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs) Tread a bit lightly as a local may spook if any query gets too close to other stuff re this area that is still being hidden. The book is/was there though. If anyone likes to search the online Riverina Regional Library catalogue there may be a copy of it lodged at the Cootamundra library. Coota Museum might also be able to assist.

Certificates can probably be accessed by anyone but protocol applies also. Why doesnt Wikipedia obtain a birth certificate for Thomas Wills and have a qualified historian decide where Tom was born. Most of Australia knows where Tom was really born. Its just a few aberrant sources want to continue on with the misinformation about that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs)

But isn't it worth adding a mention in the article about this confusion ? Tintin (talk) 11:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's not obvious which place is right, then yes, of course it should be mentioned. JPD (talk) 11:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

• • No, in my view it is not worth adding a mention in this article about the confusion at present. We have reliable sources which assert quite confidently when and where Wills was born. We have wikipedia editors giving their own view based on family history. Even if we got the certificates, they need more material to interpret and asure ourseleves that we are indeed talking the same child. I would be surprised if the ADB was wrong - the certificates have always been readily available, but it is not impossible. However, if the author of the Wills ADB entry didn't use the birth certificate, he would no doubt have used another reliable source. To mention the confusion, for example to reference the indexes and say there was more than one Thomas Wills born, is tantamount to original research. If somebody cites the certificate which says District of Molonglo = such and such a township which is closer to Gundagai than Queanbeyan, I would be happy to augment the facts put forward by the ADB as there is no conflict. If somebody comes up with a conflicting fact, I would have suspicions that the brith certificate referred to a different Wills - I would want to understand why the ADB entry was wrong before putting in different information from an uninterpreted source that requires other pieces of information to ensure it is correct. The reference to the location of Horatio Wills's station does not clarify where Thomas Wills was born to my mind. There is no doubt expresssed in reliable sources as to where Wills was born, what source would you cite that there is doubt? "Some people suggest that ..." breaches WP:NOR--A Y Arktos\^talk 11:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree concerning the location of the station, the usefulness of the certificates, and so on, but I@n does say above that "some sources" say Gundagai/Cootamundra, etc. I expect that the ADB is right, but if these "other sources" are similar in reliability, then they should also be cited. JPD (talk) 11:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I confess that I can now no longer recall where else I saw Gundagai mentioned other than the assertion of our IP friend. Perhaps I was just being sympathetic to his cause. A google search [2] returns nought. -- I@n ≡ talk 13:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Isnt memory a wonderful thing. Put in Wills family genealogy on world google. There will be a list of different Wills genealogies for Oz. One of them will contain Thomas'. That entry is lodged I think by a family member who is a solictor from Wollongong. I saw that entry maybe 5 years ago so dont quote me. I was just thinking, Frederick Walker, who had the Native Police in Qld in the area of the Wills family massacre and who was retained by the Wentworths the same as the Wills were, also went in search of Burke and Wills. That (Burke and Wills) Wills was connected to the Horatio Wills so all these people link up (Wills, Walker, Wentworths, Spencers), as they were all associated. They were also all at Gundagai pre the Qld jaunts. You see, if they could locate similar geological locations that were also very special to the Aboriginal people, they knew there was probably gold there. This was the 1830s though and gold had not been discovered in Oz then.

Here is the above URL: It notes Tom being born at Gundagai within it. http://tww.id.au/fam/liza-edward/pafg03.htm#91

More on no original research

In response to the suggestions above:

• Why doesnt Wikipedia obtain a birth certificate for Thomas Wills and have a qualified historian decide where Tom was born.
  • Please read WP:NOR which is policy and will I think answer your question.--A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Most of Australia knows where Tom was really born. Its just a few aberrant sources want to continue on with the misinformation about that.
  • Please cite a reliable source to support your view. --A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
• Its unusual that a book such as the Aust Dictionary of Biography would be accepted over a primary source such as letters to the Surveyor General by the Ass Surveyor General.
  • A letter four years after the birth that the family lived in place x does not mean the child was born there. If the letter had said I was present a the happy event of little Thomas's birth right here on this spot - that would be fine. Even if it said I visited this fine farm where all the children were born, or similar, ... What you have indicated does not say that - it says Horatio Wills lived here 4 years after the child in question was born - so what?--A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Horatio Wills also lived near Gundagai in 1836. That is recorded in a letter to the Sydney papers about the attack by bushrangers on the Wills home while Horatio was away. That letter mentions Mrs Horatio Wills being at that near to Gundagai home when the bushrangers visited.

• "Best to ask an Australian Uni with a strong Aust History Faculty as a refereee if sources such as NSW BDM and the Surveyor general are discounted as sources."
  • The Australian Dictionary of Biography is published as a collaboration between ANU and Melbourne Uni - would appear to meet your request I would have thought.--A Y Arktos\^talk 12:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, granted re that comment re the AustDicBio. I dont use it enough to take much notice where its from and wouldnt ever use it as a source in anything I published. I did check their Tom Wills entry and where they say they got the info from. There is no primary source referenced in any of it it seems so they appear to be rehashing someone else's error re Toms entry. Maybe they are just reprinting old info that is now totally outdated now peopel can more easily access the primary sources at NSW State Archives. I wouldnt know why the ADB put that stuff in re Tom Wills. I doubt if Melb Uni know much re Gundagai though the archaeology department at ANU certainly do - but not the history faculty. But then again the ANU History Faculty do know a lot about Gundagai, but it was not released but seems to have been held back, (re Tindales letters to ANU History dept heads), so what else may have been withheld?

I will believe what Tom Wills family say about where he was born and that some family members still live in the Cootamundra area. The 'Harrison' who helped invent AFL was from the "... Harrison" in the Man from Snowy River poem and that family were from just to the north of Gundagai near Jugiong. These people selected runs as a family/old retainer thing but seemingly for the Wentworths/Spensers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.214 (talk • contribs)

Toms step dad, George Howe, was supposed to be the son of Lord Spencer. There were several connections to British aristocracy in the 'south of gazetted lands' area of what we now call NSW in this era. George Howe was the first publisher in Oz and owned land near Coolac. 'Owned' may mean it was held in trust for the children of his wife and the deceased Edward Wills; or a blind eye paid to the land being claimed by Howe/Wills then it being offically noted after the 1860 Robinson Land Act when Howes name appears all over the Coolac maps. Howe was also to do with the establishment of the Bank of NSW.

From JPD's post in the previous section, he seems to be aware of the two Tom Wills issue. So is there some literature already available on it ? Tintin (talk) 13:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Look up the historical indexs on NSW BDM. Do a search for Thomas Wills born between 1830 and 1840. Two Toms will come up with the same parents. It seems to indicate the first Tom died then a year after, the surviving Tom was born. This happened often in colonial oz when women were giving birth in the wilds of nowhere but infants also died post birth. Gundagai library may have a burial record for the first Tom Wills as some of the old single bush graves were recorded not long ago. The library assistant knows that area out where Tom Wills was born, well.

The following is the URL for Toms family. It notes Tom being born at Gundagai within it. http://tww.id.au/fam/liza-edward/pafg03.htm#91

Source for alternate birthplace and date

• Thank you to the editor using IP 203.54.9.214 on the night of 4 July for the alternate source [3] - before giving us the link, we could not see what you were referring to.
  • Please please try to format your additions to this discussion chronologically and please sign on talk pages using four tildes ~~~~? This will automatically produce your name or your IP address, and the time and date. Five tildes (~~~~~) will convert to a date stamp with the current date and time, without adding a signature or an IP address. Note an account means your username /log-in stays the same regardless of a changing IP address -it can be pseudonymous - ie doesn't reveal your identity.
• The author of the ADB entry was W. F. (Bill) Mandle, former Professor of History, University of Canberra, and regarded as founder of sports history in Australia. Among other publications, he wrote a study of cricket and Australian nationalism in the nineteenth century.[4]

Professors have the freedom of their universites to say and publish whatever they like. I have never heard of Professor Mandle so I guess his importance is only recognised by some. 'Sport' is a huge money spinner for various interests, including political interests so a publication that had the 'founder' of AFL born in a favourable place, counts. Also, one of the main streets in Melbourne is named for Toms dad. Melb Uni would probably know about Gundagai I have decided as Toms Dad became a politician down that way. My interest in Tom is that I know he was born at Gundagai and it gets very annoying to continually read he was born elsewhere as where a person is born, counts.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.9 (talk • contribs) 11:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC+ 10 hours)

• I am sure Professor Mandle hasn't heard of you either. Please try resisiting inserting comments into the middle of another person's comment.--A Y Arktos\^talk 01:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The above isnt how 'resisting' is spelled. Can you be more careful with your spelling and grammer Arktos. You keep putting your comments in the middle of what I post here also. That is like pushing my cow off the Common so yours can graize, then whinging when I do the same back to u.

Only the educated understand that 'Professor' titles just indicate such Profs understand maybe more than most, how much they dont know -so if the prof doesnt know me I am sure that wont be any suprise to him given his cap and gown. Its only Y.10s from 1955 get overawed by Prof titles. There is no wikipedia entry for W Mandel or any ADB entry? It sounds like he is a contemporary fella given he was at UC. If so, he isnt the inventor of sport history. The old newspapers did that copiously in colonial oz and that has been continued right through since. W Mandel may have put out some publications that dealt with some hisotric aspects of sport, maybe getting info from the earlier sources, but invented its recording? I'm just reading a 1906 account of a medal my Dad won for being in the team that won the Rugby premiership that year. Bill Mandel didnt first record that. A newspaper did.

• I think, given we actually have an on-line source, it would be acceptable to cite it as an alternative source of facts. The family history seems thorough, which implies careful research and access to original documents that have been interpreted as a group - I would be happy to accept it as a reliable source.--A Y Arktos\^talk 01:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Good, because that source shows the correct birthplace. To become a British citizen in 1836 thus be under the protection of British law, the birth had to be registered in a British Colony. Gundagai was not British then as the Colony of NSW ended just south of Yass and probably followed the Molonglo River around too. I guess UK parents wanted their son to be registered as a British citizen or they'd not have bothered registering him at Molonglo or Parramatta within the 6mths after his birth.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.54.9.9 (talk • contribs) 11:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC+ 10 hours)

This is the URL for the newspaper item about bushrangers who called on the Wills' near Gundagai.

http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/issn/14401894.html

Its somewhere in that newspaper, ('Commercial Journal and Advertiser'). I still havent found my hard copy of the item to get the date of the newspaper from, but will.

Football

The claim that he won Champion Of The Colony award is disputed as there is no evidence that such an award was ever given to Victorian footballers. RossRSmith (talk) 11:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Burra Burra 10 Miles From Queanbeyan?

I just read TS Wills Cooke note above that they have a family map that shows Burra Burra being 10 miles from Queanbeyan. Its very obvious that the Wills were at Burra Burra Gundagai, not Burra Burra Queanbeyan in the era of Toms birth. I will put that other old newspaper reference re that that I have here somewhere, up soon. As you can see on the article page, I posted the 'Argus' mention re where the Wills lived in that era, the other day - but there is yet another old newspaper mention of them too, written in around 1836.

If anyone wants to check where Burra Burra Gundagai was in that era there is a map online at the NLA listed under "Binalong Police District". This map shows from Binalong to around the Five Mile/Coolac area near Gundagai, but also goes a bit to the west of the current Coolac town area. To the left of Coolac on the map is 'Bongongalong'. There is another spelling of this town name - bongongolong. Just to the west of that locality is a creek with two branches at the headwater of Bongongalong Ck. One of these creek branches is Burra Burra Ck (the other Mitta Mitta Ck) and its there along Burra Burra Ck the Wills lived. My rellies used to live out there a few years after the Wills but I have also been up there in recent times and in the 1960s.

I'd love to know more re this map of the Queanbeyan that shows Burra Ck. There may have been a Burra Ck near Queanbeyan though as Burra just means kangaroo so there are likely stacks of roo creeks. The 'Queen of the Woods' (a universal folkloric concept) is at Gundagai so perhaps that Queanbeyan reference is about landscape folklore, and it got moved a bit east. It might just mean though too that there is some Cambrian geology near today's Queanbeyan. The folkloric stuff is not out of line with some of the literature stuff noted in Gundagai's landscape via street names etc. Street names are archaeology so that they exist gives a scientific underpinning to folkloric cultural landscape stuff in the same area. I will now go and try and find where the name 'Queanbeyan' originated. jjones Gundagai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.203 (talk) 08:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Above Binalong Police District map URL

http://nla.gov.au/nla.map-rm1799 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.203 (talk) 08:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

T.S.Wills Cooke

I was just reading some of the online content authored by or credited to TS Wills-Cooke including the content at the top of this discussion page.

GA Robinson, the Protector of Aborigines for Port Phillip District (which came to the southern bank of the Murrumbidgee), noted the violence of Horatio Wills and how Horatio noted this violence himself. Robinson's papers are in various State archives if anyone would like to check themselves.

Greg de Moore, (a Sydney psychiatrist), author of 'Tom Wills', has placed his recent book on Google books on limited access, and some of Horatio Wills behaviour (sourced from the Archives), is noted in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.171 (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Gundagai talk from Burra Ck where the Wills lived at Gundagai in the mid 1830s, always noted the violence of Horatio Wills which is why I then noted it here well before I ever came across any of Robinson's records.

I likely had ancestors who didnt always act in an honourable manner towards Aboriginal people in this area but I do not know if I did or did not, just that anyone in Oz from the time of British invasion likely had some input, even if third hand, to what was done - as we all in 2009 benefit from taking this land from those who lived here before us. My ancestors are not documented in the nations official records as being part of such acts though. Why do any of us who take credit for being direct descendants of Australia's pioneering colonials, want to live in continual denial about the accompanying unpleasant aspects of such claims?

JJones Gundagai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.25 (talk) 07:54, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Queanbeyan Meaning in ref to Burra Ck

Wik records Queanbeyan as originating from the word 'Quinbean'. Not far from the other known word 'jinbean' is it that I have recorded at Gundagai, jin meaning the obvious (or white lady as per the beverage, in ref to the old cambrian geology), and the bean or been also recorded for river (Tumut R no less or doomutt or two dogs) with Been being the property of the first white who legally took up land in the Tumut area, James Horatio Rose of Yass whose land was at the junction of the Tumut or Been R and the Little River near tot he current Tumut township. Two Dog Ck is the Mutt Muttama Ck that the Bongongalong Ck runs into on the NLA map. Maybe colonial settlers moved and put the names that were at their previous address, on their new landscape stuff? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.203 (talk) 09:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The Native Dog

"THE NATIVE DOG. The Perth Gazette, and Independent Journal of Politics and News Friday 5 September 1851 from NLA Beta Newspapers

A correspondent (Mr. H. S. Wills,) of the Sydney Herald, writes : - A writer in your journal of a late date has treated on the ravages committed by the wild dog of the colony in her northern provinces, and advocates some legislatorial measure for their extermination. Permit me to observe that these sanguinary pests of the sheep-fold are to be extirpated with the greatest ease, and at very little cost, much more speedily than any act of the kind alluded to would be likely to pass our chambers. One ounce of strychnia in chrystals, it being less subject to adulteration in that state, will clear any station in the colony. This remedy may, or ought to be, purchasable in Sydney for thirty or thirty-five shillings. So that whilst my old friends north of Murrumbidgee talk of wild dogs, they might get rid of them. Strychnia has been tried in this district with astonishing success. A 'brush' is a thing now to be wondered at. The result to myself alone, has been a saving of at least £350 a-year, not to speak of the annoyance and torture I am relieved from. The bait for a dog is a piece of fresh meat of about eight ounces, into which a small quantity of the poison is inserted. This, suspended from an overhanging branch, beyond the reach of wild cats, by a thin piece of twine, under a " nosable " piece of carrion, is almost sure to secure any particular dog. But to 'smash the breed' without mercy, attach a dead sheep, or kangaroo, or emu, or bullock's paunch, or any carrion to be obtained readily, to the axle of a light cart, and at sundown (to cheat the crows) take a road, or a cattle track, through the parts principally infested, and as you go along leave a bait, in some such manner as I have described, at intervals of a mile or thereabouts. We generally drop a few pieces of unpoisoned meat around the bait, to arrest the dog in his rapid career on scent. It will be necessary to take up the baits which re- main untouched at daylight, if you wish to economise. This is a simple way of effectually ridding a station of a most outrageous pest. I may observe, also, that strychnia is found to be an admirable spe- cific in attacks of the eagle-hawk during the lambing season. No later in fact than this morning, I destroyed two in about ten minutes, which I observed hovering over the lambs of some imported ewes. Touch the heart and liver of a dead lamb with a pinch of the poison, and your success is certain. The extermination of the wild dog instead of being a matter for the interference of the legislature, is in fact simply a question between the settler and his merchant, or apothecary.” —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.4 (talk) 12:40, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Tom and Don

You know, Tom Wills was born in the area to the west of Gundagai and east of Bethungra.

Famous world cricketer Don Bradman was born at Cootamundra but his family also lived a bit to the west of where the Wills' did.

Many of the Dons relatives still live in this area including one very near to me.

Famous horse trainer Gaye Waterhouse's dad (famous horse trainer Tommy Smith), was also one of Don Bradman's close relatives.

There may be a chance that the Wills and the Smiths had some connection and the cricketing skill was passed down on more than one branch. The Smiths were in this area very early on in colonial times.

I see Cricketing Australia is promoting the first Australian cricket tem to tour England in 1868. This team was led by Tom Wills of Gundagai, (really of Gamahe that then became Yammatree to the west of Gundagai). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.54.9.187 (talk) 04:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Date of Death

According to Greg de Moore's biography, Tom died at around 1:30 pm, 2nd, not 3rd of May. I'll edit it. Wikipeeeeedia (talk) 01:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tom Wills/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Roisterer (talk · contribs) 05:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC) Unfortunately I don't have the time in the forseeable future to properly review this article but I have made some very minor edits and here are a few of my thoughts upon reading this (very good) article:

• The article refers to "aboriginals" in lower case quite often. I understood it was now accepted practice to always capitalise "Aboriginals" (and in my day job of writing on Australian Aboriginal issues, capitalising Aboriginal is the accepted practice).
• Under the "Colonial hero" section, you will need a ref for the statement regarding Wills trading punches with MCC members.
• As an aside, it would be great to get the first poem on Australian rules football in Wikisource.
• In the "Victoria reigns..." section, you will need a ref for the Victorian Cricketers' Guide quote.
• We should be able to find the name of the Attorney-General referred to re struggle on the station.

As mentioned, this is not part of the official review; just some thoughts following a quick read through. Cheers --Roisterer (talk) 05:08, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems a bot has decided I am doing the official review for the article so I will have another look through when I have the chance. --Roisterer (talk) 04:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

The name of the Attorney-General is not given in de Moore's book, but the man serving as the Attorney-General at the time was Ratcliffe Pring. Would it constitute original research to add his name? - HappyWaldo (talk) 03:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

No, that should be fine. --Roisterer (talk) 05:21, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Is the review still going on? If you don't have time I can just put it back in the queue. Wizardman 02:49, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

While I haven't had much time to go back over it, I notice that some of the earlier points I raised have not been addressed. In my mind it is a very good article that needs primarily some references added, so hopefully my initial concerns are dealt with and then we can work from there. --Roisterer (talk) 03:51, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

For the "best cricketer in Australia" quote, should I cite the primary source (Victorian Cricketers' Guide) - which is extremely rare - or a more recent book which can be found in most libraries? Also I'm still not sure which instances of aborigine/aboriginal should be capitalised and which should not. Perhaps a major contributor on a related page can make the corrections. - HappyWaldo (talk) 05:08, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I just realised you had posted here. I have gone back over the article and besides a few typos (and changes that may well not have been required). To answer the "best cricketer in Australia" question first, feel free to use a secondary source. Also, I'm happy to go with your choice on the Aboriginal/aboriginal divide.

Besides this, I find the article to be excellent quality; very well written and sourced and a very interesting read about one of the biggest figures in Australian sporting history. --Roisterer (talk) 12:04, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Roisterer. I added a ref for the "best cricketer in Australia" quote. Do you know a user who could sort out the capitalisation issue? - HappyWaldo (talk) 05:43, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Not sure of a particular editor but I found this from Monash University on writing on Aboriginal Australians and Torres Strait Islanders. It recommends capitalising, but I'll have see if Wikipedia has a style guide on this issue. --Roisterer (talk) 04:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The featured article Yagan capitalises "Aborigines", but it's only mentioned once. - HappyWaldo (talk) 11:20, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

And as far as I can see, the Wikipedia Manual of Style regarding Capital letters doesn't seem to help either... --Roisterer (talk) 07:04, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Search results are really 50/50. Nonetheless I have gone ahead and capitalised "Aborigines" on the back of this: "Always capitalise ‘Indigenous’ and ‘Aboriginal’ when you’re referring to Australian Aboriginals, but not when you are referring generally to the original inhabitants of other continents." - HappyWaldo (talk) 07:36, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Great stuff. I will now go through the paperwork required to officially make this a Good Article. --Roisterer (talk) 00:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Funeral attendees

Turns out that Verney Cameron is correct name, despite some initial thought that it should be Vernon. Apparently, he was a cousin of Verney Lovett Cameron, a 19th C explorer. Info cited here: notice for Verney Lovett Cameron (Melb CC) http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5984176

mentioned on this page - 2nd column about 4th para from bottom http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/258480 RossRSmith (talk) 07:52, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Fascinating. He's probably notable enough for his own Wiki article. - HappyWaldo (talk) 08:08, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Tom Wills/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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It has been interesting to read this section as it illustrates how much people get wrong, my comments are based on the original family documents which I hold. Nobody, including the family, knows for certain where Tom was born. At the time of his birth the family was settled at a station called Burra Burra which was about ten miles from the current site of Queanbeyan, the family papers contain a map of this place. The issue is that there are two references to Toms birth in the NSW archives, one showing 1835 and one showing 1836. The birthdate is correct at August 19th and he was baptised in January 1837 according to the church records. There are two possibilities:- 1. That he was born at Burra Burra and the family waited for more than a year to bring him to Sydney to be baptised in 1837, possible but unlikely as in those days it was normal to baptise children quickly in case the died in infancy 2. That he was born in or near Sydney in 1836 and baptised at about 4 months. If this is the case then the most likely place of birth would be Thomas Wills property near Parramatta or the Antills place at Picton. These two are the brother and sister of Horatio Wills. Tom's mother was married at Parramatta in 1833. She was from the orphan school (with her sister Catherine, later Mrs Roope) and she had no family with any property so it would have to be one of Horatio's family. My own view, and all of the family papers are in my possesion, is that the second scenario is the most likely. As to the veracity of much of the other content I agree that much of it is rubbish. Horatio's mother had, in total, 4 boys and 5 girls Thomas, Cedric, Horace and Egbert (the boys) and Emily, Elizabeth, Eugene, Minna and Hortense (the girls). She lost none of her children in infancy. The first edition of my book "The Currency Lad" 286 pages plus illustrations, notes, bibliography and a copy of Horatio's will has several factual errors (Tom's birthdate in the chapter heading being one) which have been corrected in the second edition. It is available from the National Library and the State libraries of NSW, Vic and Qld. T S Wills Cooke tandems@bigpond.com

Last edited at 23:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:01, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Thinking about FAC

I've skipped the lead for now, but I think that will need quite a bit of work. A few thoughts on the first part of the article:

• I don't think we need such a detailed family background. I'd stick to a sentence or two on Horatio's family, a little about how he met Elizabeth and then get onto Tom's childhood. I would argue that we could cut most of the first two paragraphs of Early life as we only should be focussing on Tom. Perhaps just having something like this:

Wills was born on 19 August 1835 on the Molonglo Plain near modern-day Canberra, in what was the British penal colony of New South Wales, as the elder child of Horatio and Elizabeth (née McGuire) Wills. Tom was a third-generation Australian of convict descent: his mother was born to convicts from Ireland, and his paternal grandfather was Edward Wills, an English highwayman whose death sentence for armed robbery was commuted to transportation. Tom's father worked in the Gazette office, becoming editor in 1832, during which time he met Elizabeth, an orphan from Parramatta. They married in December 1833. Tom was baptised Thomas Wentworth Wills in St Andrew's, Sydney, after statesman William Wentworth.

Horatio turned to pastoralism in the mid-1830s and moved with his family to the sheep run Burra Burra on the Molonglo River. Although athletic from an early age, Tom was prone to illness, and at one stage in 1839 his parents "almost despaired of his recovery". The following year, in light of explorer Thomas Mitchell's discovery of "Australia Felix", the Willses, with shepherds and their families, were among the first settlers of the Grampians in the colony's Port Phillip District (now the state of Victoria). After squatting on Mount William, they moved a few miles north through the foothills of Mount Ararat, named so by Horatio because "like the Ark, we rested there". Horatio went through a period of intense religiosity while in the Grampians; at times his diary descends into incantation, "perhaps even madness", and wanted himself and Tom to base their lives on the New Testament.

• I would also recommend using in-text attribution to name the author of some of these quotes, particularly ones that give an opinion such as "perhaps even madness". Sarastro1 (talk) 20:25, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, Sarastro1. I'll go ahead with the in-text attribution and some of the rewording. I'm not so sure about the removal of certain details from the family origins paragraph. Based on your version, it's no longer clear how the family went from lowly convict origins to amassing considerable wealth (Edward's mercantile business), nor is it explained how Horatio became a newspaperman (his mother remarried to the colony's first printer). Tom's family history reads like a list of Australian royalty. There's several other notable figures I could have included but decided not to. Horatio's autodidactism (which motivates him to ensure that Tom receives a classical education at the most prestigious school) and his nationalism/republicanism (which he fed to Tom as a child and expressed most forecfully in The Currency Lad) are also missing. These aspects go a long way in explaining the trajectory of Tom's life. I can't find the source right now, but Tom's biographer said something like "When you get down to it, this is really a story about a father and his son". I was pretty chuffed that I managed to condense all of this into a paragraph. Having looked at other FA biographies, I thought it was an ideal length as well. What suggestions do you have re lead? - HappyWaldo (talk) 05:15, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

The lead is quite wordy, and could probably be trimmed a little; but as I say I haven't looked properly yet. Re his family, my only issue here is that the article is about Tom Willis, not his father. If needs be, his father's article could be expanded but I really wouldn't be including too much detail or explanation about Horatio in Tom's article. The reader can click the link if they want to know more; what goes here should only be essential to knowing about Tom's life. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:48, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I used FAs like Babe Ruth as a point of reference for lead size. The trouble is that Wills not only dominated a sport like Ruth, but founded another. Add on top the controversies, tragedies and off-field exploits and it's like cramming five lives in one. - HappyWaldo (talk) 04:37, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Tom Wills' Birthplace

Tom Wills was born near to Gundagai. I visited his home in 1962. It was a beautiful log cabin described to me by a person who was descended from 1840s Gundagai residents as being the "first European house in this area". Johneen Treanor Jones - Gundagai

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Chicago Tribune article of 1895

For anyone interested, the newspaper article referred to in this ABC News report of 2021 is The Chicago Tribune, 27 Jan 1895, P34, which is firmly behind the Newspapers.com paywall, so I imagine most people have not read it.

Attributed to a person called "G", it was headed "Old Days in Australia" and it was syndicated in other US papers in the months afterwards. It is not an exhaustive account of Wills' life or the Cullin-la-ringo massacre, rather it's about how Australia has changed since the "old days". After some passing references to "Bushwhackers" and bankers, and some absurd accounts of excesses during the goldrushes which the author suggests they observed, (eg eating a banknote in a sandwich) the Tommy Wills story takes up most of the second half of the account. But tellingly this bit begins with the claim that the "gradual disappearance of the Aboriginal has... made a change very much for the better", and this is the tone of the remainder of the article (its always a shock to come across this type of racist commentary even with the distance of time). The author claims to be using Wills' words, but misplaces the whole Cullin-la-ringo event in Victoria, rather than Queensland. It quotes Wills as having had a strange premonition before reaching the homestead, and then on arrival quotes him as saying he found the "heads of mother, father and three sisters stuck on sticks placed in a row..." The story of recovering his Zingari jacket from "a dirty, shrinking, greasy brute" while he was on a reprisal party then follows, with the claim that subsequently Wills had a "sort of general prescriptive right to rid the country of what he called d-d vermin."

The whole story fits with the colonial attitudes of the time, and obviously most closely reflects the attitudes of the unknown author – not necessarily Wills, who had been dead 15 years. It is also notable that this US account is quite removed from almost anything else known about Wills - or even his movements. I was surprised the ABC gave it the prominence it did. Nickm57 (talk) 11:00, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Sadly I am not shocked by the racist commentary - while uncommon, such comments are not limited by the distance of time. You will be interested to read Martin Flanagan's views in the Age [5], which sets out many reasons to be skeptical of the account in the Chicago Tribune, including that Wills' mother and sisters were in Geelong. But Flanagan also says that the article cannot be ignored, largely because there is much about Wills that is unknown. --Find bruce (talk) 21:53, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. The article by Flanagan is masterful. Nickm57 (talk) 22:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

References

"Research discovery suggests AFL pioneer Tom Wills participated in massacres of Indigenous people"

How should be tackle this information? It came to light several weeks ago, but I've been reticent to mention it due to its controversial finding, especially as Wills was known for his integration with aboriginals. That's obviously not to say he couldn't've done a revenge attack while also being friendly to other aboriginals.

I just think this bears mentioning it, as it seems very odd not to mention a dedicated feature article on a reputable Australian website. Thoughts?

Edit: I've just seen the above topic that discusses this. Good to know it's been assessed, and I will leave it be. Posthumous accounts like this are difficult to rely on, and we shouldn't besmirch Wills based on such flimsy evidence.

Electricmaster (talk) 02:24, 1 October 2021 (UTC)