Talk:The sea in culture
Latest comment: 1 year ago by ClydeFranklin in topic Requested move 15 March 2023
 | The sea in culture has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. Review: February 20, 2015. (Reviewed version). |
 | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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 | On 15 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Sea in culture to The sea in culture. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Similar topic at Impact of the sea
editThe article Impact of the sea appears to be about much the same topic, and it may be appropriate to merge them. Probably with redirect. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 20:26, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
- Redirect: That recent essay-like student article seems indeed to describe a part of the topic of Sea in culture, which however has a far broader scope in time and subject area, taking in for example early history, symbolism, literature, film, and music. The student seems to have had a strong focus on America and African-Americans; there is scope in Sea in culture for a brief section on the "transportation" by sea of criminals (Britain to Australia) and of slaves (Africa to America and the Caribbean). Much of Impact of the sea is an opinion-piece with broad allegations ("the sea was their natural habitat"); and none of the book references include a page number, so there will be little that can be merged from there; it would be better to start afresh on the transportation topic, avoiding the essay-like tone and working directly from the sources. Further, the essay goes over the ground of existing articles including the Atlantic slave trade and Penal transportation. I would support a redirect. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:26, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
- To save a lot of faffing about, I've created a section on Human cargo with links to existing articles on the topics mentioned above. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:43, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
- About a month ago, Peter Southwood and I were involved in a discussion to possibly improve or merge that Impact of the sea article. Given the points made by Chiswick Chap above, I am going to simply redirect that article to here as suggested. Thanks. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 15:03, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- Many thanks. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:04, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- About a month ago, Peter Southwood and I were involved in a discussion to possibly improve or merge that Impact of the sea article. Given the points made by Chiswick Chap above, I am going to simply redirect that article to here as suggested. Thanks. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 15:03, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
- To save a lot of faffing about, I've created a section on Human cargo with links to existing articles on the topics mentioned above. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:43, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
- Redirect: That recent essay-like student article seems indeed to describe a part of the topic of Sea in culture, which however has a far broader scope in time and subject area, taking in for example early history, symbolism, literature, film, and music. The student seems to have had a strong focus on America and African-Americans; there is scope in Sea in culture for a brief section on the "transportation" by sea of criminals (Britain to Australia) and of slaves (Africa to America and the Caribbean). Much of Impact of the sea is an opinion-piece with broad allegations ("the sea was their natural habitat"); and none of the book references include a page number, so there will be little that can be merged from there; it would be better to start afresh on the transportation topic, avoiding the essay-like tone and working directly from the sources. Further, the essay goes over the ground of existing articles including the Atlantic slave trade and Penal transportation. I would support a redirect. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:26, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
Requested move 15 March 2023
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 18:56, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Sea in culture → The sea in culture – An intelligent editor, oknazevad, at the Talk:Sea page says per WP:THE this needs to happen. LightProof1995 (talk) 05:17, 14 March 2023 (UTC) (talk) 02:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). ❯❯❯ Raydann(Talk) 10:21, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose There is no rationale for the move. Also Sea is not The sea. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 16:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sea is not "the sea" because that article has multiple scopes (and is largely redundant with ocean, but that's a discussion for that talk page) both including individual particular seas and the entire interconnected maritime environment, which is grammatically referred to as "the sea", the definite article serving as a linguistic mark to indicate that the whole is the topic. Since this article is about said whole, idiomatically, it should, grammatically speaking, include the "the" or else it is not indicating the correct topic. oknazevad (talk) 14:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Should probably note that I support the move as the initial proposer in discussion.oknazevad (talk) 22:40, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sea is not "the sea" because that article has multiple scopes (and is largely redundant with ocean, but that's a discussion for that talk page) both including individual particular seas and the entire interconnected maritime environment, which is grammatically referred to as "the sea", the definite article serving as a linguistic mark to indicate that the whole is the topic. Since this article is about said whole, idiomatically, it should, grammatically speaking, include the "the" or else it is not indicating the correct topic. oknazevad (talk) 14:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support - descriptive titles are always allowed a bit more leeway, and the present title is just dorky IMO Red Slash 20:29, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- Note to the closing admin that "I think it sounds bad" is not a policy based reason and should be ignored when deciding the outcome. Anyone can think anything sounds bad. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 04:51, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support. It's not at all clear what the current title means in English. The proposed title fixes this perfectly. Perhaps wp:THE may need an update to cope with this case. Andrewa (talk) 11:09, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Andrewa is right: this is a case where WP:THE misses the target. The current title sounds like it was produced by a poorly trained chatbot. Favonian (talk) 11:16, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment: WP:THE, as currently written, does not appear to support this move. You could argue it meets point 1, but I think "Sea in culture" still holds the same meaning as "The sea in culture", even if it's a bit clunky. It's also worth noting there are no articles starting with "The sea" where sea is lowercase, once you remove redirects. There are plenty that start with The Sea, with Sea being capitalized, but they all appear to follow point 2 in WP:THE. I'm Neutral on this move as such – it does look particularly clunky to me when titled as "Sea in culture", but I'm not sure if that's enough of a basis to move the article here when policy does not support it. There also might be other articles that this one would be setting a precedent for – I didn't look very thoroughly for those. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 14:47, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need to apply wp:IAR. This is exactly the sort of scenario for which that policy is intended. Andrewa (talk) 17:43, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.