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Lack of other European output
editThe gesture is also used to say "piss off" which is a alternative to the "fuck you" gesture, moreso in meaning "get lost".
Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2023
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Omit the word obscene in the first sentence. It is false as well as misleading. Billzwick (talk) 04:35, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- The middle finger doesn't appear to lead people to think about the penis, according to research. [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6490901/]
- Numerous courts have also opined on the matter, ruling that the gesture isn't obscene (on its own).
- [2]https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2010/03/middlefinger.pdf] Billzwick (talk) 04:45, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Not done: Just because it isn't legally considered obscene in the United States doesn't mean it isn't considered obscene – the article does discuss its legal status in the US under the section Political and military use. I'll note that the journal article you cite calls the gesture obscene right in the abstract and throughout the rest of the article. Tollens (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- Looks like the Wired article does too:
That a gesture may be described as obscene in the common parlance is not determinative of whether that gesture falls within the legal definition of "obscene" speech.
(page 1431). Tollens (talk) 08:12, 23 November 2023 (UTC) - The middle finger is not used or received to connote sexual gestures or disgustingness, research shows, and as far as common parlance goes, it is not amoral or indecent given that it's a protected expression in multiple areas of the world. Calling 'contempt' and/or 'protest' obscene and therefore disgusting as well as amoral sure is an exaggeration and immensely anti-American. Billzwick (talk) 15:06, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- By calling the gesture obscene, you're negating the many positive aspects underlying acts of defiance and rebellion, and overlooking the fact that the gesture is also used as a nonviolent form of emotional communication and dissent. Billzwick (talk) 15:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- If the courts aren't worthy of defining the word obscene, then who is? Apparently anyone else, according to this article. Per common parlance, how are you even defining that?! For the record, Canadian courts as well as Scandinavian ones have also ruled that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture on its own. Billzwick (talk) 15:20, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia isn't in the business of correcting 'errors' that other reliable sources have published – it's merely a summary of what has already been written about a topic. If reliable sources tend to call the gesture 'obscene' (which they do seem to), that's the word that gets used in the article whether or not we agree. Tollens (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- That some others seem to call it obscene might be because of this article, and not vice versa. And isn't that a part of dissent and contempt -- safeguarding the minority from the majority?! Billzwick (talk) 22:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's not relevant why reliable sources use the terms they do, just that they do. Wikipedia is not the place for righting great wrongs. Tollens (talk) 23:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- That some others seem to call it obscene might be because of this article, and not vice versa. And isn't that a part of dissent and contempt -- safeguarding the minority from the majority?! Billzwick (talk) 22:41, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia isn't in the business of correcting 'errors' that other reliable sources have published – it's merely a summary of what has already been written about a topic. If reliable sources tend to call the gesture 'obscene' (which they do seem to), that's the word that gets used in the article whether or not we agree. Tollens (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- If the courts aren't worthy of defining the word obscene, then who is? Apparently anyone else, according to this article. Per common parlance, how are you even defining that?! For the record, Canadian courts as well as Scandinavian ones have also ruled that the middle finger is not an obscene gesture on its own. Billzwick (talk) 15:20, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- By calling the gesture obscene, you're negating the many positive aspects underlying acts of defiance and rebellion, and overlooking the fact that the gesture is also used as a nonviolent form of emotional communication and dissent. Billzwick (talk) 15:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
- Looks like the Wired article does too:
Jerry Seinfeld’s Alternate Gesture
editComedian Jerry Seinfeld has suggested that giving someone “the toe” would be worse than giving them “the finger”. He believes that showing someone your smelly, hairy toe is worse than a finger. Mitch045 (talk) 14:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Battle of Agincourt story
editShould we address the commonly told story about the battle of agincourt and the chopping off of fingers of the archers? It's a common enough story to address and point out that it's apocryphal EdwinAmi (talk) 02:08, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
But like, what does it mean? 2600:8807:8825:700:CD51:BA92:F8B5:8F5A (talk) 16:18, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
"not unlawful"
editwhat does "not unlawful" mean? it is a double negative equals positive one? taken from: "Use of this gesture in public, while vulgar, is not unlawful...[sic]" @Tollens 182.253.54.119 (talk) 11:03, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am not certain why I was pinged here, but yes, "not unlawful" means it is not a crime. Negating an adjective that already contains a negative prefix is quite common and typically accepted as correct - it is generally used to soften the adjective. See https://dictionary.cambridge.org/grammar/british-grammar/double-negatives-and-usage. Tollens (talk) 23:27, 7 December 2024 (UTC)