Talk:The Three Marys

Not only the tomb

There is other context: the crucifixion, where an imprecise number of "Marys" is cited. The identification of each "Mary" is also a very hard question, and there was more than three. You can see better in the spanish wikipedia. Sorry for my bad english.--Ángel Luis Alfaro (talk) 08:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Ángel, here’s a phrase to add to your English vocabulary, just in case you haven’t ‘’already’’ added it to your stock of second(-and-beyond) language idioms: “... not that I intend to sell ...myself short”.

JerzyA (talk) 16:32, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Mary of Salome

Love the pics! I believe that Mary of Salome is NOT the mother of Jesus. Possibly Mary Magdalene but definitely not the mother of Jesus. Mugginsx (talk) 12:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

My edits

Johnbod: Please stop changing my edits with edit summaries that amount to WP:IDON'TLIKEIT. I deferred to your objections which were valid and made a separate paragraph on the Three Marys Manuscript and you reverted with a objectionable edit summary. You also changed the English translation to the French. This is English Wikipedia and that was inappropriate as well. You then followed my contribs to Jean de Venette and made changes in a deliberate manner intended to be difficult to revert. That is vandalism. Next time I will report you. I am not a Newbie. Thank you. Mugginsx (talk) 09:06, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

The poem in the manuscript mentioned in the Mugginsx edit is about the three daughters of Saint Anne, each of whom, according to legend, was named Mary (see these references). The poem deserves a mention within the article's account of those three Marys, but I doubt if the manuscript needs to be mentioned.

There are hundreds of manuscripts that contain an account of one or other of the several groups of women referred to as "the three Marys" - just think how many manuscripts there are of Mark 16:1 (the three women at the tomb that have been interpreted as three Marys) and of John 19:25 (the three women, each of whom was a Mary, at the crucifixion)! Presumably there are manuscripts also that record the legend that the three "Marys" associated with the tomb ended up in the south of France.

The mention in the Mugginsx edit of "Mary Salome of St. Palaye" is puzzling. Is it a misunderstanding of a reference to the antiquarian Jean-Baptiste de La Curne de Sainte-Palaye, who published the poem (see these sources)?

Someone who is not a "newbie" should know that it is not best to discuss the editor rather than the edit. Esoglou (talk) 10:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

If only it were that simple - see this for example. No one suggests the Virgin Mary went to Provence. Actually there is variation in whether it was 2 or 3 Marys who did, and which they were, but Mary Magdalene is nearly always included. Johnbod (talk) 11:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Copied from Bencherlite's talk page: I respectfully disagree that Johnbod's edits were not deliberate vandalism. He initially advised me to use a separate paragraph for the Manuscript entitled The Three Marys Manuscriipt. I complied. He reverted because "he did not like it" - a frequent occurence for him, and reduced it to a sentence using the French term which is not advised on English wikipedia as you know. He also deliberately edited in a manner as to make it difficult for me to change back to the separate paragraph (which he advised in the first place!). He also then followed my contributions (as his contribs clearly show) to Jean de Venette and did the same. He also had the pic of the manuscript showing where he indicated a fresco. That was clearly inaccurate. I simply moved the pic back to where the Manuscript paragraph was. I usually do not use the rollback feature on my own articles but my understanding is that am allowed if vandalism is clearly utilized for the editor's own purpose which is to frustrate and obstruct. Mugginsx (talk) 10:31, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

After looking at the matter further I found a better use for the material. The (very predictable) description of what must be a much later manuscript copy (not findable by your reference) was not relevant at Three Marys. You are mistaken if you think the Lorenzo Monaco miniature (from a choirbook) is from a manuscript of the poem. And so on. Johnbod (talk) 10:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

That reference was given to me by User:Doric Loon who has identifed himself as an expert in languages and medieval manuscripts as Professor Dr Raymond Graeme Dunphy at http://www.dunphy.de/ and an editor of the reference http://www.brill.com/publications/reference-works/encyclopedia-medieval-chronicle-2-vols which I correctly gave. The date of the manuscript is correct. This is the link for the most recent addition http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.pecia.fr%2F. Mugginsx (talk) 10:44, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about the French manuscript blog, which no doubt due to the strange layout of that site you can't locate now where you say. You don't see any problems with "The Three Marys or Maries is a long poem written circa 1357 by Jean de Venette in the form of a manuscript on vellum from the mid-fifteenth century,...."? I'll copy this to Talk:Three Marys Johnbod (talk) 10:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

The link is in the reference and issue I indicated. It is not a blog. I will also contact Professor Dunphy directly and get further information but it is correct as given. Mugginsx (talk) 11:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Esgolou: As someone who has disagreed with me on a entirely different article, I find it strange and inappropriate for you to intervene in a wp:good faith discussion between two editors and an administrator in which you have no valid interest. Mugginsx (talk) 11:10, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't work like that, especially when Esoglou is a long-standing contributor to the article. Not being a Newbie, you should know that! Johnbod (talk) 11:13, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Even if I had never edited this article, it would be my duty to Wikipedia to help improve it. Let us leave that aside. Concretely, Mugginsx, does the Jean de Venette poem, whose author some say was different from the Jean de Venette who has an article about him in Wikipedia, concern the three Marys, daughters of Saint Anne? If they were, can we agree, as a first step, to join your account with the mention of those three Marys and remove it from the mention of the three Marys at the tomb? Esoglou (talk) 11:34, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I would remind you of the guideline Wikipedia:Tag team. I will respond only to User:Johnbod or User:Bencherlite Mugginsx (talk) 11:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I notice that Bencherlite has told you not to bother him. If you refuse to discuss proposed edits, I have to go ahead and make them. I'll start with the minimum already mentioned. Esoglou (talk) 11:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I never called on Bencherlite. If you are going to tag team, at least read enough to get your facts straight. Since my paragraph has been merely moved down the page I have no objection. I indicated the pic of the manuscript since you have deliberately moved it. I did so in the spirit of cooperation and for the dislike of further argument. See: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/File:The_Three_Marys_at_the_Tomb_1396_Monaco_Lorenzo.jpg Mugginsx (talk) 12:00, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

The source of the image given at that link shows that the illumination comes from an antiphonary (as indicated also by the musical notes) in Latin, not a manuscript of a poem in French. The image is of the three Marys at the Tomb, not of the Three Marys Daughters of Saint Anne that the poem is about. Esoglou (talk) 12:47, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I will check with the expert, if you do not mind. Mugginsx (talk) 12:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Please do, and remember that only published reliable sources count in Wikipedia. Esoglou (talk) 12:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I never stated the poem was in French. You would do well to follow your own advice in some of your other articles, particularly those of a religious nature. Mugginsx (talk) 13:20, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Esgolou - Please stop re-factoring your comments on this page which have already been answered previously to your re-factoring. Wikipedia:Refactoring talk pages since an administrator has intervened. Use strikethrough. [1] Thanks. Mugginsx (talk) 18:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

(Johnbod re-factored his comment as well so I am moving it where it belongs in the timeline)

No, you didn't - but you should have done, as it is! Johnbod (talk) 18:17, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

If there is an error as to which poem this is, you both know you are free to revert it in the article. I am on to other things. I have the poem downloaded but unfortunately it is in a pdf and over 25 mb which is over the email limit. It contains 195 pages. If you are sincere and if you know how I can send it to you either of you I will be happy to do it. It does not contain the link but I downloaded over one year ago from, I believe, a link in the issue given for the Medieval Manuscript. Mugginsx (talk) 18:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

In addition, there was never a discussion on the length of the poem as you have now put in your re-factoring. We cannot have an honest discussion when you are re-factoring sentences after the fact. It is a transgression of a fundamental principle in Wikipedia - Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Mugginsx (talk) 19:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I apologize, Muggins, for doing what you tell me I should not do. I have now undone it, and I am moving here the quotations I gave to show that what you rightly called a poem was in fact written in rhyming French, not in Latin - and of course it would be ridiculous to imagine it was written in English. If you doubt any of the quotations, just ask me, and I'll post also the Internet link to it. Here are the quotations: "écrite en vers français vers l'an 1357, par Jean de Venette" (written in French verse around 1357 by Jean de Venette); "Jean de Venette also wrote a long French poem, La Vie des trois Maries, about 1347"; "Vie (la) des trois Maries, de leur mère, de leurs enfans et de leurs maris (écrite l'abord en rimes françoises par J. VENETTE, carme, l'an 1357, puis translatée de rime en prose par Jean DROUN ..." (Life (The) of the Three Marys, Their Mother, Their Children and Their Husbands (originally written in French rhymes by J. Venette, Carmelite, in 1357, later translated from rhyming to prose by Jean DROUN ...); "VENETTE (Jean de), ... le Roman des trois Maries (la mère du Sauveur, Marie Cléophas et Marie Salomé), en rime française" (VENETTE (Jean de) ... the Story of the Three Marys (the Mother of the Saviour, Mary Cleophas and Mary Salome) in French rhyme), etc.

I await with interest the quotation from the source you give for the claim that in the poem one of the three daughters of Saint Anne is called "Mary Salome of St. Palaye". The scholar Palaye lived centuries after the poem was written. Esoglou (talk) 20:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Esgolou. Do what you want. I am busy and as I said, on to other things. Also, as I said, I try only to work with good faith editors. Mugginsx (talk) 20:52, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Identity Question

Would not Maria Jacobe be the same as Mary, mother of James, since "James" is usually translated/rendered Jacobus in Latin and as "Jacobian" or "Jacobite" when used as an adjective in English? (See the king of Scotland's supporters' name for example). I don't know if historically speaking she is taken to be both the wife of Cleophas and the mother of James the Lesser, but if the two names are used interchangeably, that could have been intended.96.233.98.79 (talk) 17:00, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Well if you read the articles you will be a bit better informed, though there is no certainty here. Johnbod (talk) 18:15, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Saints

Which of these Marys are saints, presumably Saints from the Holy Land as the footer implies? We mention Saint Anne and Saint Sarah (an official saint and folk saint but they have their own articles (which make them official and unofficial saints, i understand). We don't identify any of the Marys as saints (unless i missed it).

--P64 (talk) 19:26, 3 June 2015 (UTC)