Talk:The Great Gama

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2020

The Great Gama was an Indian wrestler and the article has been edited by someone to incorrectly portray him as a Pakistani wrestler. He was born in Amritsar (India), wrestled across India, and represented India when he traveled abroad. Pakistan did not exist till 1947 when it was created out of British India during independence on 14th of August that year. The Great Gama shifted to Lahore in Pakistan in 1947 at the age of 69 and spent his last years there. Also, the article ambiguously states that "He lived for the rest of his days in Lahore". The correct statement would be "The Great Gama shifted to Lahore (Pakistan) in 1947 and stayed here till his death." Chaoticdays (talk) 14:44, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

You may have a valid point. You should have come here in the first place. Unfortunately you disrupted the article on multiple IP addresses which was blatant sock-puppetry. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:11, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 Partly done. I have removed the mention of nationality from the lead sentence. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 16:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Psychologist Guy,there is a lot of sock puppetry going on this article and the source clearly states that after partition he went to Pakistan and obviously he could retain only one nationality that is Pakistani. It is pertinent to remember that he is buried in Pakistan and by all means he was a Pakistani national. And regarding the other editor, they must not remove the referenced statement without a clear consensus. Moreover, every one on this earth got some nationality.-Kthxbay (talk) 22:18, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Adding more reliable citations so please Deacon Vorbis do not edit war.-Kthxbay (talk) 22:35, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Nationality can be complicated. In this case, it's clear that it's complicated. There's no particular need for this to be claimed in the first sentence. The most neutral way to present this is to simply leave out any claim of nationality and just leave the rest of the article to describe what it describes. Just because you can cherry-pick sources to support a nationalist viewpoint doesn't mean this should be here. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 22:38, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

It can not be left because if Mr. Gandhi who became an Indian national after the partition called Pakistani or just not a national of any country what would that implicate? I have provided clear citations for his nationality.-Kthxbay (talk) 22:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Please indent your replies. See WP:THREAD for more information. But he clearly wasn't born a Pakistani national since Pakistan didn't even exist as a nation yet. I have no idea what you're trying to say about Ghandi or what that has to do with anything here. People's nationalities can change. There is no requirement that an article's first sentence make a statement of nationality in a biography. Indeed, when the issue is complicated, as this is, especially with the stupid India/Pakistan nationalist BS making things even murkier, it's best to just not make a statement like that. The article can make clear when he moved where he moved, what citizenship he ultimately acquired, etc. One Pakistani newspaper declaring him Pakistani is not sufficient. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 23:03, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Deacon Vorbis, please do not deviate from the subject. You clearly sound an Indian national yourself and have just appeared from no where once the article is semi protected. There is otherwise a lot of sock puppetry already there so please do no give stupid logic in support of your edit warring. There are ample of sources which confirm his nationality so do not try to beat around the bush and next time please ping me if you got anything to say.-Kthxbay (talk)

Chaoticdays, it is quite obvious that you are a sock and appeared with an account after the page is semi protected which is also pointed out by an other editor. I strongly recommend you not to indulge in edit war and do not remove references from the article. Further, please do read WP:SOCK.-Kthxbay (talk) 23:53, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done, @Chaoticdays: since you are a sock who indulged in long time abuse and disrupted the article on multiple IP addresses. Moreover you blatantly removed reliable sources and referenced information.-Kthxbay (talk) 18:11, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Psychologist Guy, Deacon Vorbis, and Chaoticdays: I think a good compromise here would be to mention that he was a colonial Indian and later Pakistani wrestler. Most of his wrestling career took place in colonial India and reliable sources attest to this, which I've added in the lead. This should satisfy Chaoticdays, who wants to add in his Indian identity, as well as Kthxbay, who wants to add in his Pakistani identity. This way we have both. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 19:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Aman.kumar.goel: He only had one nationality since colonialism is no nationality and I do not want to add anything related to Pakistan. The way you cannot term Mr. Gandhi a colonial national(:. And please read the talk page again, we are here dealing with a sock who disrupted the article on multiple ip addresses so Wikipedia is not about someone's satisfaction. Anyway, thanks for your contributions.-Kthxbay (talk) 19:59, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Calling people a sock without any evidence is a WP:NPA and you must refrain from it. Your previous threats of getting the supposed "sock" blocked are no longer convincing but appears to be an excuse used by you for removing the content. Are you saying that before 1947 people were not considered Indian nationals? That's entirely false. People traveled on an Indian passport and India was represented in the Olympics and League of Nations. Apart from these facts, you have been opposed by every single editor on this talk page and you do not have consensus to remove The Great Gama's nationality from the article. Psychologist Guy, Deacon Vorbis, Aman Goel and Chaoticdays, have all opposed your edits. It is you who needs to convince the rest of us, which you've failed to do. As for now, we have consensus for including The Great Gama's Indian Nationality. I am now tempted to include "Indian wrestler" per sources here:

"Great Gama of India, an Indian wrestler who achieved worldwide fame."[1]

"The Great Gama, an Indian champion who toured Europe in 1910"[2]

"famous Indian wrestler The Great Gama (Ghulam Mohammed, 1878–1960)"[3]

"Indian wrestler known as the Great Gama made his first appearance in 1947."[4]

Do you have any reliable sources mentioning him as a "Pakistani"? Orientls (talk) 07:07, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

First of all, colonialism isn't a nationality and all the articles you are mentioning clearly a country's version. Secondly the way you can't write Mr. Gandhi a great colonial national, same way you can't term Gama an Indian. His grand daughter was the first lady of Pakistan and her husband a three time Prime minister. And I have provided ample of references for his nationality so do not edit war. The Great Gama only fought during colonial period and that is well mentioned in the article. He lived in Pakistan, buried in Pakistan (authentic referencesare included) and was on pension by the Government of Pakistan. Last but not the least Psychologist guy didn't buy your opinion.-Kthxbay (talk) 07:19, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

You need to WP:VERIFY your original research with reliable sources. Copy pasting your own personal views is unhelpful when you attempt to counter reliable sources Orientls (talk) 07:30, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

You need to see WP:SOCK. As far as the references are concerned, I have already provided reliable sources so please accept the facts whether they don't suit your opinion. Moreover, please try to understand that we are dealing here sock puppetry so please assume good faith and I expect you will not indulge in edit war.-Kthxbay (talk) 07:40, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Who is edit warring and where are your references? I have left a warning on your talk page that if you called other editors a sock puppet and assumed bad faith again then you will find yourself reported, given the polite warning above didn't worked at all. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 07:58, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kthxbay: https://pakistantoday.com.pk/2018/01/05/the-great-gama-and-lahore/ is not a WP:RS but a puff-piece and it does not refer him as a "Pakistani". You are simply misrepresenting an unreliable source. Orientls (talk) 08:07, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Aman.kumar.goel, you please assume good faith and as per your history, you remained block for edit warring. I have provided more than a couple of reliable sources ( please read WP:V) and this article is disrupted on multiple ip addresses. I considered it a possible sock issue. So please do not edit war as you are looking for indef. Please feel free to report me. I'm waiting. Regards.-Kthxbay (talk) 08:13, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Orientls Please do not edit war and do not remove sources [5]. If you have any issue, state your concerns.-Kthxbay (talk) 08:22, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

You are the only one engaging in edit warring. Your less reliable source[6] is showing 404 error. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 08:24, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Aman.kumar.goel now you are doing edit war knowing fully well the consequences. Gama lives in Pakistan and he is buried in Pakistan which makes him a Pakistani national. Please do not edit war.-

Gama is not alive anymore. You need sources to verify your information. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 09:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Aman.kumar.goel, I have reported you for edit waring and removal of references content and disruptive editing. Please do not vandalize and wait for the decision.-Kthxbay (talk) 09:35, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

At least state the truth and don't mislead readers

It's quite obvious now that this article is being edited and semi protected by a couple of Pakistanis trying to portray a famous Indian wrestler as Pakistani. I request you people to at least change the ambiguous line "He lived for the rest of his days in Lahore" to "He shifted to Lahore in 1947 and stayed here till his death" which is the truth and the exact line mentioned in the source you have quoted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaoticdays (talk • contribs) 12:40, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done, @Chaoticdays: you are a sock puppet and about to be blocked indefinitely (see WP:SOCK) . Despite that you have been warned a dozen times, you kept on indulging in long time abuse and disrupted the article on multiple Ips. Even then I am trying to reason with you and you must understand that as per the source, both India and Pakistan were never existed before 1947 and it was known as subcontinent. After partition Gama chose to leave for Pakistan and opted for Pakistani nationality which makes him a Pakistani national by all means and half a dozen references have validated this argument. This is the very last time I am reasoning with you and after this, if you try to disrupt the article again, I will file an SPI and your master sock will also be indef.-Kthxbay (talk) 23:36, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I highly doubt the diet & exercise plans mentioned in this article. How is it possible that these exaggerated listings were published? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.202.108.62 (talk) 18:52, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

given the massive amount of incorrect information about gama's matches in this article, it's no surprise that this also might apply to other sections! I'm going to edit in better sources as much as I can and encourage anyone who has more information to do the same. HistoryFightFan (talk) 05:44, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kthxbay you are a Pakistani vandal presenting half truths to project a false narrative

Once again, I can see half truths being presented to project a false narrative. Thankfully you removed the line "he lived for the rest of his days in Lahore" but then you replaced it with another half truth - " After retirement, he lived on land and monthly pension given to him by the Government of Pakistan for the rest of his days until his death on May 23, 1960 in Lahore". Are you so desperate to portray an Indian wrestler as Pakistani that you can't even state the truth that Gama shifted to Lahore in Pakistan from his hometown of Amritsar in India post partition of the country in 1947? I read your statement on the talk page where you wrote "both India and Pakistan were never existed before 1947 and it was called the subcontinent" and I don't know whether I should laugh at your grammar or your lack of knowledge. It was called the Indian subcontinent you liar. But at least don't vandalize wikipedia articles to present a false narrative. I'm filing a complaint against you as well for misleading readers with false information and misusing your admin rights. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chaoticdays (talk • contribs) 16:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Senseless edit warring taking place on this page: India vs Pakistani nationalty.

user:Cannolis Could you please be so kind to discuss the changes you are enforcing here: https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=The_Great_Gama&type=revision&diff=1061966323&oldid=1061965842 This person in question was a Pakistani national, holding an actual Pakistani passport. I know this confusion is rampant for historic figures, but in this case it literally makes no sense to dispute his nationality. KamranHassanUK (talk) 23:47, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm just going off the source currently cited in the article. Not very familiar with this subject area at all but an IP editor changing every mention of the word "India" to "the Subcontinent" seemed fishy to me. Again, not familiar with these disputes but from reading our current article, it seems most of his activity as a wrestler came before Pakistan's independence in 1947. Cannolis (talk) 00:05, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

user:Cannolis I agree that some of those edits were quesitonable, but just dont see how reverting to the other extreme is a helpful position. Please note that we refer to pre-independence rule as British India or British Raj. This is starkly different from the modern country of India. Regardless, this wresterler was an ethnic Kashmiri, who was born in th British Indian era Punjab and later migrated to Pakistan where he held the Pakistani nationalisty until his death. As you can note, all of such information has been removed. KamranHassanUK (talk) 19:08, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Not sure why you think all of that information has been removed. Article currently discusses that he was of Khashmiri descent "The Baksh family is believed by historians to originally have been Kashmiri Brahmins", and in 2 sections discusses that he moved to Pakistan. "After the independence and partition of India in 1947, Gama moved to Pakistan." Cannolis (talk) 19:42, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Saved Hindus in riots rather than saving fellow Muslims from Hindus and Sikhs fleeing, like himself, to Pakistan? The Hindu nationalist editors are very funny here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.57.200.148 (talk) 19:54, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Dates?

The article states he was born in 1878 and died in 1960.

The source: Here's The Story Of Gama 'The Undefeated' Pehalwan And How He Saved Hindus During 1947 Riots states he was born in 1878 and implies that he died in 1960.

The source: Biographical Dictionary of Professional Wrestling, 2d ed. states that Gama was born in 1888 and died in 1953.

Which do we use? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 20:01, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

1200 kg lift?

Many pages, e.g. https://olympics.com/en/news/who-is-the-great-gama-pehlwan-india-wrestler, mention that he is said to have lifted a 1200kg stone in 1902. Should this legend be mentioned in the page? It may be plausible; compare with Gregg_Ernst -- Dankegel (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Given that the article you listed simply repeats unverified or untrue claims about other aspects of Gama's life, I vote no. HistoryFightFan (talk) 05:46, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

"Rematch with Zbyszko" section contradicted by other accounts

The section detailing the "rematch with Zbyszko" quotes a single secondhand source and is completely contradicted by other accounts from Ed Lewis, The Ring Magazine, and Zbyszko himself. The notion that Gama flipped Zbyszko - a man he couldn't turn over in THREE HOURS of previous competition - and sat on his chest to pin him is either means that the match was a work, like many of Gama's other matches reportedly were, or simply a fanciful account provided to the press. All three other sources on the subject (including one of the participants) state that the match was contested under rules which considered touching the ground with any body part a fall, which further contradicts the article's account of the match. I'm still fully researching this subject, but intend to add other sources for balance ASAP. HistoryFightFan (talk) 11:50, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Since there have been zero objections to this, my aim is to begin adding balance to this article using The Ring magazine, the Ed Lewis book, and other contemporaneous sources ASAP. HistoryFightFan (talk) 05:49, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Gama's full name is not mentioned

Hi Mr. @Philipnelson99, can we please add his full name which ends with "Butt" which is name for Kashmiri "Bhatt" surname in Punjabi dialect. This official Olympics Article also has his full name here:[7]https://olympics.com/en/news/who-is-the-great-gama-pehlwan-india-wrestler HistoricPilled (talk) 20:47, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

As you can see by looking at the page history I've already undone my revert @HistoricPilled. Philipnelson99 (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate your work @Philipnelson99 HistoricPilled (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2023 (UTC)