Talk:The Amazing Race 24

UCLA Marching Band

• The band performed the opening show and they were members of the show. Phil Keoghan said the band performed for 90 years and was important to this special edition. It should not be deleted. Ucla90024 (talk) 16:47, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

  It's a piece of useless trivia. You're sourcing it to an illegally hosted video. It is not important.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:51, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Stop restoring the video. You added it and you were reverted. Stop edit warring over it. They are not "members of the show". It's a 1 minute sequence to set the fact they're leaving from UCLA's stadium. And we cannot use the information per WP:EL and WP:RS because you are using an illegally hosted version of the video, which is not a reliable source.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:53, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

They were not at "UCLA's stadium". Everybody featured in the show are members of the show. Ucla90024 (talk) 16:57, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree it is useless trivia. Do we need to put the name of every single person who appears at the finish line mat with Phil too? Or everyone who manages the roadblocks and detours? Or everyone who the contestants pass by on the streets? All of the taxi drivers? Just because they appear on the show for a few minutes doesn't make their appearance notable. If there is an article on the UCLA Marching Band, this information is better placed in there. Gloss • talk 17:01, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

You've also both broken WP:3RR - so please stop the edit warring. Gloss • talk 17:02, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I've managed to incorporate the information in a better format that does not give undue weight to the band, although they do make an attractive picture to illustrate their appearance.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:08, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

If other sources (not the show) note the presence of the UCLA band, that's a piece of information that can go in the production ("The race was kicked off by a performance of the UCLA Marching Band..."), but right now it's trivia. --MASEM (t) 17:14, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Right now it's just "Bruins Nation" and "EIN News" reporting this. Not sure if they count.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Stadium

The stadium has an article on the English Wikipedia: Haixinsha Island (Tianhe District) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.229.216 (talk) 14:52, 24 February 2014 (UTC) Also start line should say: Cougar Stadium at College of the Canyons — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.229.216 (talk) 14:56, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Joey and Meghan episode 2

Is it me, or Joey and Meghan started 8th on start of episode 2? Do we know why they started 8th instead of 10th? And if so, should it be mentionned? ─ Fabzzz _talk 02:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• I didn't reaize about Joey & Meghan, but i did realize that Margie & Luke departed 3rd instead of 4th, ahead of Dave & Connor... I don't know if this was a mistake in the editing of the episode or what... Gonzalochileno (talk) 03:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• • The way the show is edited nowadays to take out technicalities (penalities, etc.) that don't otherwise affect the race, I would not believe that they made an editing mistake in departures, and that they simply kept quiet on penalties from the previous leg. We can note in footnotes that the departure order did not match the arrival order and how this was not explained on the show. --MASEM (t) 16:23, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• That doesn't give reason to change the order they arrived at the 1st leg. Whatever reason they had to change orders (sometimes it is a production issue) they didn't reveal and still their position from the 1st leg was that one. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 16:25, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• • It does affect that arrival order, since the departure order is set by that (all penalties are applied to the time they arrive at the mat). For the show, as long as it didn't change who got 1st, who came in last, and any of the running narrative in this episode, they don't have to explain it. --MASEM (t) 16:31, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

You can't know the exact truth and say that those were penalties or something else. Yes, it could've been that or production issues but they showed on the first episode those positions and they are the right positions for the leg. For whatever reason there were changes in the order they departed. If they noticed mid leg that they needed to apply penalties, would they come and change the order they finished the last leg or simply change the order they depart without changing the placements from the 1st leg? It's obvious that one thing has nothing to do with the other as there weren't situations exactly like this without explanation before. Funny to see only 2 guys saying that it's done like this and one of them saying that it's "how they've always done it". The penalty (if there was one) affected their ability to depart at the time they arrived and with that specific position. If a team was penalized with 15 minutes in their departure from the next leg and they would be affected with a worst possibility of having a time advantage. For some teams in this leg, that means they departed even after some other teams. But wikipedia is full of people like these that own the truth, isn't it? Gsfelipe94 (talk) 04:42, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Penalties that are not obvious (eg ones involving speeding when told to maintain a limit) are chalked up during the pit stop and applied to the start time - this was the way in earlier seasons; they'd only report when placement changed. They get this out of the way asap in case there are order changes that affect who was eliminated (see TAR3). --MASEM (t) 04:59, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

That is a supposition as accurate as saying that there could've been production mistakes that were credited within their departure time. It's more expected to be "hidden" from the show than penalties to half of the teams that raced the last leg. They don't necessarily have to tell on the show that production cost some time of 5 teams and they had it made up at the departure of the next leg. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 22:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

See this reference from The Amazing Race 3. They listed the team in the order they arrived at the episode and not 9th as that was their position for a on-screen announced penalty. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 22:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

According to Jennifer, it was because time credit. See this page https://twitter.com/jenwayne/status/441581295710113793 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roif456 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

That solves the discussion then. People here obviously want to update what they want to be the truth and not simply wait for other conclusions. A contestant from the race confirms that so the placements should be returned to the order they were. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 17:20, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Placements still changed so stop restoring the leg 1 finishes.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:26, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Basically, we know enough about the behind-the-scenes that anytime the leave order changes from the previous leg's finishing order that penalties or time credits have been applied but the show in its newer format tends to leave these behind unless it affects results or was something they had to show (eg a team quitting on the detour, for example). That's why the leaving order is the "official" finishing order for the previous leg. --MASEM (t) 18:41, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I know that. I've been watching the show since 2007/2008. The major problem in this thread is that Ryūlóng feels that he owns the truth and the updates should be whatever he want to. The photos should be the way he want them to. If somebody from the race reveals the exact reason of something, it doesn't matter because Ryūlóng knows the truth and that's what should be updated here in his mind. That's ridiculous. They don't usually announce that a team had a problem with a producer and that cost them around 20 minutes in somewhere. If that doesn't eliminate them or something similar, yeah, they'll get the chance of leaving 20 minutes earlier in the next leg as the time credit speaks for itself. It doesn't change the fact that the position from that team wasn't changed from the 1st leg, just that they got the chance to leave earlier than they were supposed to as you can't check them in the mat and say "well you got screwed with your production crew and we're giving you 30 minutes of time credit. You just passed 3 teams!". Also mentioning Ryūlóng again... He undo a edit just to do the same thing the person just did instead of adjusting what he feels is right. Very funny plus the whole "holy shit" rage on my talk page and the edit summary. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Don't accuse me of WP:OWN when your edits to the page have been completely undiscussed and without consensus. You have been disruptive and exasperating. And anyone is allowed to revert their own edits back to someone else's version. There's no rule against it anywhere.

You were reverted by users other than myself, and when that happens you do not restore your version again because you think you're right. You start a discussion on the talk page and suggest that your version be used.

Holy cow it's just a photo. Some are better than others. Sometimes we use two. Sometimes we use one. Who cares?

The information on the results are in the article now as is the mention to Ms. Kuhle/Wayne's (don't remember how she's referring to herself anymore) Twitter account. Problem solved. End of discussion.

And this talk page should be used for discussing changes to the article. Not discussing the subject of the article.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Really? You simply edited them the way you wanted just like the photo. I had no problem with the photo, but you mentioned the template that was recently used. I changed to the new one and we all know what happened: (here and here). Yeah, I got reverted edits because one person agreed with you and not me. That happens. The focus of this talk page is to discuss anything related to the article and how to improve it. As you can see it confirmed the point of not changing their positions from the 1st leg. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 00:00, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Ryulong, where is this consensus you're talking about? I see you saying "Stop changing things" and one of (I'm sure) many users going against your word. I would bring up all the points I made on my talk page, but I don't feel I should have to. We have always displayed on the results table the order of racers' departures except in such a case when they miss their departure time through their own fault. This shouldn't even be a discussion. Time Credits are issued to correct mistakes made by producers and arrange teams in the order they should be in.

If you continue to blow everyone off, demand us to stop discussion or make changes, and give one-sentence answers, then I'm going to have to report you to someone. You have taken on a totalitarian position on the TAR pages, AKA a very extreme case of Page Ownership. I'm tired of it, and I'm sure a lot of other people are tired of it. You are not always correct. Shadow2 (talk) 23:59, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

He also owns the rights to choose whatever photo he wants to for the article. It's incredible. You need to ask for his permission to give an update or he'll probably do just what you said and what I mentioned here before. And then he accuses someone when himself is accused of page ownership.Gsfelipe94 (talk) 00:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little confused by the back and forth here. For clarification, Gsfelipe, what is your opinion on departure times vs. arrival times? Shadow2 (talk) 01:29, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Penalties are usually worth of being revealed in an episode (could be an announcement at the pit-stop or maybe an interview during the episode with the team) so I don't think that penalties that would shift the teams positions wouldn't be revealed like that. Productions difficulties on the other hand, do not have to be as explained as that (though in cases of shifting the positions from teams like it did from leg 1 to leg 2, it's definitely worth it). The episode 1 displayed the teams arriving at the pit stop and hearing that they were that position. That's what they were positioned with. Probably Natalie & Nadiya did not have those problems or the amount of time credit wasn't enough for them to stay in the race. So they can't tell a team at the mat that they'll receive an specific amount of time and then they arrived 4th but will depart on 2nd place. They will probably tell them during the break between legs that because of productions problems they had (such as wait for their cameraman to do an specific footage), the time will be compensated at the time they depart. They can't compensate such time on pit-stops as I mentioned. Therefore, the best thing to do is add the note from the positions of those teams on the last leg and them tell what happened as a reason to their changed order of departure. I do not think it should be changed, unless they do announce on screen that a team arrived at position A but they'll have to wait for a penalty or simply go back and do a task they didn't do properly or didn't do at all. I believe that if they had a official results table just like the TAR articles have, they would've displayed the position the teams arrived. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 02:21, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

What the show "announces" or "displays" is not relevant. When you boil things down, this is still a Race. I asked this question to Ryulong, and I'll ask it to you as well. If a team arrived in last place (11th), but received a time credit so that they were not eliminated and departed in 10th on the following leg, then by your logic we would have to list them as "11th" on the table, and show "10th" as the team being eliminated. I don't think that's what you want, is it? Time Penalties and Time Credits are essentially two sides of the same coin. They are not always disclosed on air, but it doesn't matter if they are. They are designed to affect final positions. These credits were not shown on air because they did not affect anything that mattered (elimination, or the Express Passes), but they still affected teams' placements. The show can be lazy sometimes. This was shown when Nick & Vicki's speed bump was waived, but we were given no on-screen description. It still happened, but we just weren't told about it. Caroline & Jennifer departed from the Pit Stop in last place. They made comments during the episode that they were in last and they needed to catch up. They arrived in 9th initially, sure, but they ended up in 10th.

As I have said before, we have listed teams by departure times in all other cases. See The Amazing Race 1, The Amazing Race Asia 1, The Amazing Race Asia 2, etc... Andre & Damon on The Amazing Race 3 should not be like that; that is a mistake. However, I'm not going to change it yet because then I'll be accused by somebody of altering the pages to suit my argument. I see no reason why we should change convention now. The way teams arrived at the end of Episode 1 was how they initially showed up, sure, but it was also wrong. Remember that. Otherwise, time credits would not have been given out in the first place.

Thank you, by the way, for providing more than a single sentence for your side of the argument. See, Ryulong? That's how it's done.Shadow2 (talk) 02:50, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure that if it was a case of elimination/Express Pass then yes they would've mentioned it. I understand that we don't need to know about such production mistakes and it's right to not tell what happened specific, though a simple explanation with a "production difficulties" as reason would seal the deal. I remember the whole Nick & Vicki situation and if but it wasn't a matter of changing positions, but a team not having to do a speed dump with the reason for that TBA by the time it happened. But it was revealed by them - just the same way that Jennifer revealed the reason for those departure changes - later off-TV. They were saying they were last because I believe they knew other teams had departed with the time credit difference and they ended up being the last team. About TAR 3, that was only and example and it was a different situation. Their penalty was announced on screen and it was known that they had their position changed for that reason. When Jennifer confirmed it was "just" time credit, it just tells us that the production compensated teams that could've enjoyed those minutes wasted with better performances but it's not something as concrete as being penalized when you arrive at the mat. I honestly believe that if they were penalties (and it would've affected half of the teams at the first leg), the show would've announced it - even if it was just a small commentary from one team and showing what the others did wrong quickly. Anyway, this kind of discussion is healthy and makes the article get way better. Such a better way to decide things without just a piece of words that do not add anything to the discussion. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 03:15, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't quite see your argument. When you think about it, a Time Credit is exactly the same as a Time Penalty, only in reverse. A Time Penalty is applied when a team makes an error, while a Time Credit is applied when production makes an error. Either way, they are to correct so-called "incorrect" placements when teams initially arrive at the mat. This is why I really feel we should arrange teams by their Departure Times, as these placements are "correct", for lack of a better term. Let's take Margie & Luke as an example. If we are going on the assumption that there were no penalties given, then M&L were held back somehow by production during Leg 1. They were slowed down from their "proper" placement, and ended up at the mat in 4th. Production, however, recognized this and gave them a time penalty. This pushed them to where they should have been; 3rd. I feel like it's wrong to show them at 4th, because 4th represents where they stood before production fixed their mistake. In my opinion, showing them like this would be like listing a team as 1st, even though they received a penalty and dropped down to 2nd. This hypothetical team didn't win the leg. Likewise, Margie & Luke did not attain 4th. They attained 3rd. And, once more, it really doesn't matter if the show announces it or not. They don't like to announce much of anything these days. Shadow2 (talk) 04:04, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

This is exactly the case. We know this from TAR 3, Heather & Eve's. By the strict argument of "finishing order", we should mark them 1st and eliminated, since their penalty was applied after all teams came in. But as can be seen, it was clear that by the time A&A hit the mat (30-some minutes after Heather and Eve did), production still had no clear idea that there was a penalty to be able to apply that to the incoming teams. Only until production reviewed all the footage, they found that H&E ignored the clue's "walk" instruction, and had to have the special "meeting" between the teams to eliminate H&E and effectively moving all other teams up one spot. Consider also Mark and Bill from TAR 13 - their penalty which was known was applied before they could check in (and i'm sure there's other cases). Thus, it is not the order they touch the mat, but the order they leave the next day that is the "official" order. If this is explained, as it was in some early seasons (TAR2 when Gary & Dave and Blake & Paige sped in the desert that knocked them a place down), we can write that. If the order is different from how they touched the mat but there's no explanation for that, we can make a note that this order does not reflect the touch-the-mat order and a result of unstated time penalties and credits. --MASEM (t) 05:18, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

It's just easier to go with the pit stop times rather than the pit start ones. You can see Jennifer Wayne's tweet here where she says she and Caroline got a 9th place finish but left last. Finishes are more important than departures unless there is an issue regarding a penalty. Production credits do not weigh heavily in the grand scheme of things.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:32, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

...Do you...just...ignore everything anyone else says? What is your problem? "It's just easier" is like the weakest argument you've ever given. Both myself and Masem have given numerous reasons for why departure times are more correct and should be reflected in the tables, but you're basically just saying "Mmmm, nope! That's all wrong. Let's just go with my way." We have given Paragraphs. You've given us a couple of sentences. Shadow2 (talk) 14:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

We have a participant saying "I finished in 9th place but technically I was last to leave". Finishes are more important than pushing technicalities of production time credits. Unless it drastically changed who was participating (like if Natalie and Nadiya ended up not being eliminated) then we should report on that. Otherwise, the current notation that "These are the Leg 1 finishes instead of the Leg 2 departures" is fine because as far as we know only two teams received such credits such that they left earlier in line than they arrived and it was obviously of no major importance to the program to denote the fact that the order changed. We must always report what is said in reliable sources and the official summary does not figure the time credits into account. It's obvious that these time credits did not affect placements as everybody is insisting that they have.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:17, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The show itself is a reliable source, so we have no issue to site the leave order to the following episode. An we don't have to know exactly what the time credits and penalties are, we know they exist (from previous seasons and other sources) and they have previously announced those in the more verbose seasons (pre S18); we can use a footnote to say the start order of Leg N+1 differs from the finish order of leg N due to unreported time credits and penalities. Also, to note, those CBS writeups are likely written by a web monkey for CBS and only having preview of one episode, and not likely someone directly associated on the production of the race. --MASEM (t) 15:35, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I think what is shown on the show, the thing that is edited by an entire team, is a lot more reliable than a single contestant who doesn't know everything that goes on behind the scenes, as well as more reliable than a website composed by perhaps one or two editors. Production is dumb; this is a fact. I'm looking at this more as a race rather than a show. You are saying that "finishes are important", and I'm trying to say that placement after time credits is their finish. "Finish", by definition, denotes an endpoint. At the very possible end of leg 1 (meaning, as far as we can go before leg 2 begins), Margie & Luke are in 3rd. There should be no arbitrary differences such that we only list placement changes when 1st place and last place are changed. Sure they're more important, but in the end placement is still being changed. A lot of what you're saying doesn't make sense anyway. "These time credits did not affect placements" What? If they didn't affect placements, then no-one's position at the start of leg 2 would have changed. But they did. That is why we are having this whole discussion. Shadow2 (talk) 16:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Well the show's production team clearly has not decided to make note of the changes other than just showing them and getting people like yourselves to shit themselves over the lack of information. The official website uses the Leg 1 finishes rather than any other order that may have happened. And if the show is a reliable source, we were told "You are Team Number X" at the end of Leg 1 and just "Nth team to depart" at the beginning of Leg 2. The end of Leg 1 are the race placements. The beginning of Leg 2 was never bothered to be explained in the show and you guys are unnecessarily obsessing over Margie & Luke and Joey & Meghan being pushed forward without any explanation. And CBS's website gives a full runthrough of the whole episode and is not just "a preview" or whatever you're calling it. For fucks sake it's just the first god damn episode's production errors. It should not be this fucking complicated to say "These teams left in a different order at the beginning of Leg 2 due to production time credits" just because you want the Leg 2 start order to override the Leg 1 results.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not appreciate the use of profanity. I am now filing an ANI against you.Shadow2 (talk) 17:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Content disputes don't go to ANI and your personal views on profanity have no weight here, nor are Gsfelipe94's issues with what image ultimately gets used when his bold edits were reverted by someone other than myself in the first place.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

---

Things are going nowhere with these huge paragraphs it seems, so I would like to do something to provide clarity for yourself, myself and any other parties. If at all possible, it would be really nice if you could reply to these in a numbered format, as I have given here. I know I cannot force you, but it would be helpful to everyone, I believe. Please consider it.

1. The Amazing Race (the televised show) is a reliable source. Do you agree or disagree. If disagree, please explain why.
2. CBS' website is an unreliable source, as they have made errors in the past (They once posted that the Bransen Family of TAR8 had been eliminated). At the very least, it is less reliable than the televised show. Do you agree or disagree. If disagree, please explain why.
3. A post on twitter provides inside information, but is by no means a source of concrete information, especially from a reality show contestant, as production often keeps things from them. Agree or disagree. If disagree, please explain why.
4. In every single past TAR page, teams have been listed by departure time, except in such a case when they miss their departure time through their own fault. Please explain why you feel this should not apply to this page only. (Recall, TAR3's Andre & Damon is a mistake)
5. Please explain why you feel the Time Credits are "not that important". Explain why they are less important than penalties.
6. Do you recognize that, by listing teams in arrival time, Sam & Dan on leg 4 of TAR15 would be listed as "2nd", despite them wining the leg and having won a prize?
7. Please describe to me, in as much detail as possible, why specifically you disagree with my notion that listing teams by their arrival time is technically 'incorrect', as corrective measures such as time credits have not yet been applied.
8. You have stated twice now that you find my proposed changes, and our subsequent arguments, to be "trivial". If you do find them so trivial, please explain why you feel so strongly about preventing me from applying them and keeping your own?

Thank you for your time. Shadow2 (talk) 01:09, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Very well then.

1. The show is a reliable source.
2. The website is a reliable source as well; the fact that it does not presently corroborate the information you want posted here does not make it "unreliable". Obviously, if there are drastic errors in the information presented on the website when compared with the broadcast we can figure that out on our own.
3. The post on Twitter by a contestant explicitly states information that again does not corroborate what you want to be posted here.
4. As far as I am aware, past pages list pit stop results, unless the penalties or time credits that were applied outside of the events of the episode radically changed things.
5. In this case, I feel that the production team time credits do not drastically change what happened. It is only the lack of information provided to the viewer that is making you think that this is of importance.
6. This is apples and oranges because Sam & Dan were awarded a first place finish after Zev & Justin's check in was taken away due to the missing passport.
7. The information presently provided in this article is the order of teams as they were checked in for their leg 1 finishes at the pit stop as reported in episode 1 and in its CBS.com writeup. That is all that matters.
8. And it's trivial because it's a handful of numbers that haven't affected anything drastic in the competition. Phil gave each team the "You are team number X" shpiel and that is what we are going with for the placements on this page and what should be done for the placements on every page.

—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 06:17, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I would just like to say that I disagree with the notion that the Twitter post states "explicit" information. This is, in fact, the same argument I have been using against you. She "explicitly" states that they ended up in 10th.

I'm afraid you are incorrect about #4. Please see TAR1, TAR Asia 1, TAR Asia 2.

The one thing I am most confused about is your fixation on the term "drastically". What is the difference whether something was drastically changed, or if it was barely changed at all? Information was still changed, and should be properly reflected in the table. Shadow2 (talk) 19:56, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

She says "we got 9th, but ended up technically leaving last"; nothing at all about 10th place. This and the CBS website show that the country singers finished in 9th place which is what we should be reporting on.

Perhaps the TAR1 and TARAsia pages need fixing.

Minor changes like these mean nothing and your obsession with applying them to this page are ridiculous.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Well your obsession with stopping me from applying them is just as ridiculous, so that's not exactly an argument you can make. Last = 10th place. You say we should be focusing on the website, while I say we should be focusing on the show. The Show > The Website, and the Show showed Margie & Luke departing in 3rd, the country girls departing in 10th, etc etc. Shadow2 (talk) 22:01, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I am not saying that the show is wrong. What I am trying to say is that the departure order should not be what we report on this page or any page. What matters is the order of arrival at the Pit Stop. The country singers had a 9th place finish and that's what we should say on this page. The fact that they were the last team to leave does not mean they were retroactively given a last place finish in the previous leg. The website lists them as having a 9th place finish. Jennifer Wayne says she and Caroline Cutbirth had a 9th place finish. That is what Wikipedia should report on. Not some unexplained production error. And you cannot unilaterally decide that the website cannot be used just because it doesn't match with what you want to report.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:19, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

"The fact that they were the last team to leave does not mean they were retroactively given a last place finish in the previous leg. " You see, this is where we disagree, and it's a crucial point. Caroline & Jennifer's 9th place finish is technically incorrect in the grand scheme of the race. If Natalie & Nadiya had been at the front of the pack, then Caroline & Jennifer would have been eliminated, despite arriving in 10th. Then, we would be listing this on the wiki page just because it would have been shown on the TV show. But it doesn't matter. Whether it's "important" or not in your eyes is irrelevant. When placements change, they change.

It looks like we're going to need help. In your professional opinion, should I open a RFD or a Third Opinion? Shadow2 (talk) 22:24, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

You need a reliable source that says that they were retroactively given a 10th place finish in Leg 1 of which none exists. All that exists says that they got a 9th place finish, but were bumped to 10th in line for departure. If they were eliminated then maybe things would be different, and we would have obviously been given some sort of message the following week that would have explained why the elimination changed, but that didn't happen.

An RFC isn't going to solve anything because it's going to get no input other than from the two of us. WP:3O might be valid but it may be thrown out because 4 people are involved here, even though the idea on what to do is split down the center and the others haven't participated lately.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:33, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, in my eyes, the TV show is a reliable source that says they were originally 9th, and were then 10th, corroborated with the reliable source of Twitter that explains it being due to a Time Credit. Together, the two reliable sources support my view.

I went ahead with 3O, and I also posted messages on the other two's Talk pages. Shadow2 (talk) 22:40, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

I have never effing said the show is not a reliable source. There is nothing that explicitly says in any form that Jennifer and Caroline's final leg placement changed at all. That is your interpretation which is now a violation of WP:NOR and WP:SYN.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:02, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Arb Break

Let's consider that for each leg, there are the set of "recorded" finish times - what we see broadcasted when the team is checked in at the mat (including after sitting out for known penalty violations), and then there is the "official" finish times, which after all unbroadcasted penalties and credits are applied. These official finish times in turn set the order of how teams actually finished and thus in turn set how the teams leave the next leg. I don't think this point is controversial, it's which one we should reflect in the WP article.

We know the "recorded" and "official" times can be different, and the reasons for their difference will not always be explained, though we do know it is a combination of credits and penalties after the production team has reviewed notes. What is important is that the "official" times are what are used to determine who gets the first place prize and who gets eliminated/speed-bumped, etc. the next leg. And as such, this is why we should be using the "official" placement as determined by the subsequent leg's finish, even if this means we have to break out of this microcasm of considering each episode on its own (even our guide for summarizing fictional works points out we should work from an out-of-universe standpoint, meaning that when should consider each episode within the context of the overall show). Otherwise, again, we should be reporting Heather & Eve as arriving first and being eliminated (which makes no sense).

Irregardless, if there is an obvious difference between "Recorded" and "official" time/placement, that needs to be noted somewhere in the table as footnotes or the like. --MASEM (t) 06:20, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Obviously in cases like Heather & Eve and Zev & Justin there were drastic changes that had to be noted and the show acknowledged it. But here the show has not acknowledged the time credits and the final leg results have not been changed. I have nothing against noting that the departure times differed from the previous leg's results. I just do not see a reason to make those departure times the results.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 12:07, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Ryu, I have stated many times that what the show "acknowledges" and doesn't is inconsequential. The show does not acknowledge any unaired tasks or route markers, but we still list them. Masem's use of "Official" is exactly what I have been trying to convey. The Leg 1 Pit Stop finishes are "Unofficial" and "Incorrect". Shadow2 (talk) 14:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

About your Third Opinion request: You request for a Third Opinion has been removed because there are more than two editors involved in this dispute. If dispute resolution is still needed, consider Dispute Resolution Noticeboard, Mediation, or Request for Comment. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:42, 14 March 2014 (UTC) (3O volunteer)

Despite all the problems that Ryūlóng displayed here in this article, I agree with the majority of what he said. Those cases listed were drastic changes and noted in each episode. I'm sure that if that interfered somehow in the 1st place (like a producer getting stuck in a foot race to the pit stop) they could've adapted it to the official positions but in this case they couldn't interfere in how they went in the 1st leg as a penalty would. Therefore as no team would suffer from that and the ones that lost time because of a production issue would have a chance to depart earlier than their original time as a compensation. The show still list them as the way they finished the legs. Official departure times are shown so we have an idea of what time they are in that episode and to know how far teams are from each other at the beginning of the leg and then imagine how it was for the 1st leg. I understand that just the way the whole people responsible for The Amazing Race messed up with the cast, they can mess up a bit with being 100% transparent about those kinds of changes. Hell, they even said that Meghan & Joey were from Season 18 when they showed images from the Switzerland leg. I understand all the points that were listed here but everytime that a team arrived at a pit-stop but couldn't check in (regardless of the reason), we noted that they arrived at that specific position but because of the - insert reason - they had to do something before checking in or wait for a penalty. I don't think they lacked those kind of things before, just "minor" things like time credits at the start of a future leg or maybe the speedbump of Nick & Vicky. They probably weren't going to tell the whole TV public that production messed up and therefore they were allowing the non-eliminated team to run the leg without the need of a speedbump. I think that we should list them as the way the show and official show media tells us: the way they checked in, unless there's a major change that requires one team to relinquish their first place or avoid elimination. If that's not the case (like this episode) we should tell them that the results table list them by finishing order and that one the following leg, they departure in different orders due to an unknown reason or maybe just like Jennifer told on twitter, a specific reason that could very much be a time credit.

Yes you can argue that contestants don't know 100% of what happens and that's true. They didn't have to know why a team got a time credit (they should know it's due to a production issue but not the specific issue) and then they only know that there will be a change in departure order due to that. It's an important font because if we're here discussing what to do about it, how do you not value an opinion of someone who was there and already saw the episode in discussion? It's definitely an important source. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 17:56, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not understand this fixation everyone has on "importance". Since when did listing basic mathematical data rely on importance? They're still numbers, and they still change. Whether it is "important" or not in the eyes of producers has no relevance here.

Additionally, I have another scenario: What if Natalie & Nadiya had also received a time credit, in addition to those who already received some. In that case, they would still be in the race and Caroline & Jennifer would be eliminated. Then, by Ryulong's, et all, rules, we would list NN as 10th and CJ as 11th (reflecting the change), but continue to list JM JJ ML and DC by their Leg 1 arrivals (not reflecting the change) because, as you repeatedly state, those are "not important". Arbitrarily changing the rules because of "importance" just leads to confusion, inconsistency, and quite frankly incorrect information. Shadow2 (talk) 18:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Stop making up these nonsense hypothetical situations. And the basic mathematical data is the finish line results. Obviously in this ridiculous scenario the finish line results would have been changed drastically, but again, because it didn't happen we don't have to obsess over this point. Episode 1 has Caroline and Jennifer being told "You are team number 9". The official website lists them in 9th place. Jen Wayne says they got 9th place. That's all that matters in this situation. Obviously, if these time credits affect winning a leg or being eliminated then it's worth mentioning and it would be explicitly stated by the show. These completely undiscussed slight changes in who leaves at what time is obviously not important enough to have been mentioned and it's only prodding by the fans that someone from the show even said what happened.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:03, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not understand this fixation everyone has on "importance". Shadow2 (talk) 23:37, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Because if it was important or relevant to the program it would have been mentioned by the program.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:55, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Says who? TAR leaves important things unaired all the time. Shadow2 (talk) 19:11, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Well clearly the writers decided those things weren't important enough to include.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:13, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The writers leave out ALL unaired tasks. Your argument is not valid. Shadow2 (talk) 09:36, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

My argument is plenty valid. You haven't given one proper counter argument other than your insistence on making up hypothetical situations which obviously would result in a drastic change in finishing times which obviously has not happened here so we shouldn't bother with changing them.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:42, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I could make the same argument about you, you know. I've made plenty of valid counter arguments, but you're just remaining fixated on this misguided idea of what is "important". This is an encyclopedia. We do not report what the producers feel is important enough. We report facts and data. Shadow2 (talk) 21:42, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

And those facts and data support the leg 1 finishes as the results of that leg rather than the leg 2 start times.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:01, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Those facts and data are logically incorrect. Shadow2 (talk) 15:33, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if you think they're incorrect. They're verifiable.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:39, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

We can verify the order changes based on the start of the next episode too, by the same criteria. --MASEM (t) 19:40, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not denying the departure order changed. I am pointing out that the leg results are the events of the end of Leg 1 rather than the beginning of Leg 2.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:52, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Positions at the beginning of leg 2 are set up to reflect the arrival times at the end of leg 1. As they are different, clearly time credits have been applied. (This we know). Ergo, arrival times have clearly changed from what was broadcast to us. Shadow2 (talk) 23:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

No. That has not been stated. We have arrival order for Leg 1 and Departure order for Leg 2 being different, but there has been nothing stated to say that the results (1st place, et al) were retroactively changed.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:28, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

We know they are - Heather & Eve again. That was retroactive after the leg was technically completed. Plus several examples of past legs where time credits and penalties were explicitly stated. Latter season has been "sloppy" in reporting these because to the average viewer, as long as neither 1st or last changes, they likely won't notice is, but we, those that focus on the details, notice this immediately. (This is the same reason they've cut out airport drama, only the nerdiest of viewers will care about this). The departure time the next day is set after all penalties and credits are given, and it is the departure times that set the departure order. Now, I'm completely find with saying that we are reporting "as crossed the finish line" order, as long as we have footnotes to note what the change in departure was the next day (this happens infrequently enough) but we shouldn't ignore the fact arrival and departure are different. --MASEM (t) 04:42, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

That's what I've said all along. When any kind of changes happen, we should always note them below the table and explain what happen. I still maintain my opinion that in this case we should keep the finish order and simply notice that on the next leg there were some positions that differ from the finish order from the previous leg. While that "production issue" seems to have affected only 2 teams, it changed a few positions. It didn't affect elimination and 1st place and weren't penalties that were decided after the race and changed the outcome. Obviously if it made Twinnies stay in the race, then we'd do changes but probably they would've explained what happened, who was affected and how it turned out after that. Gsfelipe94 (talk) 05:06, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I never said that we should omit the information about the changed times. I just do not think that we should change the numbers in the table to reflect the leg 2 time credit order.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:28, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

@Gsfelipe94: Once again, I see people arbitrarily applying greater importance to 1st place and last place. The show does not think it is important that these teams' placements changed, but we should. So what if Natalie & Nadiya's placement didn't change? How does that make a difference? Placement has still changed. By listing the leg 1 arrival times, we are completely ignoring the entire premise of a Time Credit. Time credits fix errors, and we are not properly reflecting that. We would still obviously reflect the original arrival times in the footnotes, just like we always do with Time Penalties. Shadow2 (talk) 17:06, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The results of leg 1 did not change, Shadow2. The arrival order and departure order do not match and that is noted, but nothing else in the scheme of things. Stop arguing with hypothetical situations already.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:16, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

It's not hypothetical. Teams have to know what their actual checkin time is as to know what their departure time is (which we know they are responsible for being on the departure mat on time for), and can only be determined after time credits and penalties are made. --MASEM (t) 20:42, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

I appear to be mistaken here. I thought Shadow2 had once again brought up a hypothetical situation concerning the twins getting a time credit that took them out of elimination. However, I still do not see any evidence that the "You are team number 1" statuses changed. Order did, but wasn't explained in show, and the one source we have for this information says finishes did not change.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 00:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Jennifer's tweet really says anything about her "official" placement. She's obviously going to be a little biased towards her own team and want to tell her followers of the higher placement. In her mind, she feels like she got 9th place because that's what she was originally told. However, Joey & Meghan were, at this point, further behind than they should have been because of errors that were fixed by Time Credits. In the Producer's eyes, they clearly thought of Joey & Meghan being ahead. They're not going to re-record Phil saying "You're Team Number N!" because that costs money and they're also lazy. The producers have the highest precedence as a reference here. The mere fact that Joey & Meghan received a time credit should be enough to show that they were not in 10th place. Shadow2 (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay, here's the thing Shadow2. Nothing you've stated is verifiable, which is the crux of being able to add content to Wikipedia. We have to take everything here at face value. Jennifer and Caroline were checked in in 9th place. Jennifer Wayne says she got 9th place during that episode. The official website's writeup for this episode lists them in 9th place. There is nothing in any written or recorded form that explicitly states that this was changed to 10th place after the time credits that Jennifer Wayne says were applied at the start of the second episode that resulted in Joey and Meghan leaving ahead of John, Jessica, Jennifer, and Caroline. Unless you can find something that explicitly states that the results, that is the 3rd place, 4th place, 8th place, 9th place, and 10th place finishes were changed, then this discussion is over.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Except, y'know, the start of episode 2...Shadow2 (talk) 01:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I do not recall being told that the results from the previous leg were modified.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:59, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

So we're just going to ignore basic logic and the entire premise of a time credit then? Shadow2 (talk) 21:18, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Unless it can be verified that the country singers' leg 1 placement was changed, then I guess that is "[ignoring] basic logic and the entire premise of a time credit".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I shouldn't think you'd need to verify common senseShadow2 (talk) 14:27, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Well it clearly isn't "common sense" in this case, is it? Until you provide explicit proof that, for example, Caroline and Jennifer were awarded a 10th place finish due to the time credit application, opposing the plethora of reliable sources I've provided that says their finish was 9th, I will no longer respond.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:01, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

The fact that episode 2 shows - without spoken comment but in the chevrons - the order the teams leave the pit stop, it is not original research to say that the broadcasted finish order and the actual finish order (Which is used for the departure order via times) had changed. We know the show gives numerous time credits and penalties, so we know, in general, why the order changed, though we can't say to any degree in the case of Leg 1 to Leg 2 who got what penalty/credit since we lack times. (As a note, this is exactly the reason that they've dropped a lot of things like times, so that to the average viewer, they don't have to explain the order changes, or when they go off the 12-hr pit stop schedule). --MASEM (t) 17:06, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

The Pit Start subtitles or whatever you want to call them read "nth to depart" not "nth place".—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:18, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

"nth to depart" is the same as "in nth place", that's common sense. --MASEM (t) 17:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Again, not in this case.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it is "In this case" because we know that the changes were due to Time Credits. Shadow2 (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Again, you have no explicit proof that "nth place" changed. Just "nth to depart", and in this case we have multiple sources that say the first order is what was used rather than the second.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

I really hate you so much. Your inflated ego sucks. Bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.2.134 (talk) 13:06, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2014

Upon arriving in Chiasso, the teams drove "Ford Focus" cars not "Ford Mustangs"

http://www.cbs.com/shows/amazing_race/episodes/213118 Departing in first place at 6:13am, newlyweds Brendon & Rachel ripped open their clue instructing them to catch a train in Rome and travel nearly 400 miles over the Swiss Alps to Chiasso, Switzerland. Once there, they had to drive a Ford Focus to Tellgasse in Altdorf and wait for the town’s most famous fictional resident, Wilhelm Tell, to deliver their next clue. 108.13.16.251 (talk) 16:14, 28 April 2014 (UTC) Amtraker

Done with thanks, NiciVampireHeart 16:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Speed Bump vs. Detour

Enough, Ryulong. The Italian Speed Bump shall reside before the listed Detour locations. The Speed Bump is listed after the location THE SPEED BUMP CLUE IS GOTTEN AT. (Hadrian's Bridge) Just because you THINK this is how we do things, doesn't mean you're right. Will you get off of your goddamn high horse and stop thinking that every single thing you do is right? Your behaviour is very destructive. Focusing so hard on removing every little thing that you don't think is right is not going to help these pages grow and improve. Shadow2 (talk) 19:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

No. This is how every fucking Speed Bump on every other fucking page is formatted, and even higher up on this one. The Speed Bump is always listed after the task that everyone has to do because that is how it is displayed in the program (everyone goes to the main clue first and then the teams note the speed bump clue). The clue was received at the location of the Detour clue. It gets listed after the Detour because it's not a mandatory task for everyone. No one has had any problem with this format until you felt it was in error.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:20, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, I have been incorrect in my understanding of how previous pages have been formatted. The Speed Bump icons are always apparently listed before the other icons. This whole format is fucking confusing though.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:33, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The Speed Bump icon comes before the Detour icon because the Speed Bump takes place before the Detour. Gee whiz, how confusing. Shadow2 (talk) 01:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

US DVR Ratings section

I think this area should be deleted because its redundant. You can argue that tracking ratings is important but the L+7 numbers are never reported for this show anyway and the only instance they were, it was an episode that had a large loss of viewers compared to other seasons. Also the area is also woefully maintained on the page. I can't see the point of there being a table with just one episodes numbers reported and a whole bunch of N/As for other episodes. For the week up to Episode 10, only 1 episode has L+7 numbers readily available. Would argue common sense here.86.15.195.205 (talk) 19:55, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2014

In leg 3, I request to add the flag of Sabah state: right next to the first instance of the name Sabah Mkmoey13 (talk) 02:31, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Per MOS:FLAG. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 02:46, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Flags of subnational entities are not included on the Amazing Race pages unless there is an established form of geographical or geopolitical separation from the parent nation (such as Scotland et al from the UK, Puerto Rico etc. from US, HK and Macau from China). Sabah and the other states of Malaysia on Borneo do not meet this requirement.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 04:07, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Wales

Please do not add Wales in the development and filming section, though is not mentioned in the show focuses in the UK's visit in England. ApprenticeFan ^work 07:49, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Trendy Connections

The show clearly shows that the Trendy Connections factory is in Nugegoda not Colombo. Nugegoda however is part of the Greater Colombo region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.118.76 (talk) 00:02, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2014

Tilztango21 (talk) 23:36, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Mz7 (talk) 01:29, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

North Las Vegas, Nevada?

The location information states it was the desert in North Las Vegas. Judging from the skyline, it appears to be near Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area Einbierbitte (talk) 14:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

All we are aware is that they were transported to somewhere in the deserts of Nevada.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 14:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I think a view of the skyline is enough proof 174.1.50.249 (talk) 06:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

That's original research.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 07:46, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

It's something explicitly shown in the show. If there's an image of the Eiffel Tower in the background, and the writers of this wiki make the assumption about it being in Paris, are we gonna remove that? 174.1.50.249 (talk) 01:17, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

It's still original research since it was the middle of the night and it would require non-obvious assessment of the landscape. The Effeil Tower example is far different, assuming we're seeing it in the middle of the day as it to be clearly recognizable. --MASEM (t) 02:02, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Ryulong you state All we are aware is that they were transported to somewhere in the deserts of Nevada Therefore any mention of North Las Vegas strikes me as original research. Maybe we should just say it's in the Mojave Desert near Las Vegas, Nevada instead? Einbierbitte (talk) 22:25, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Holy cow just drop it it's been 2 weeks.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

We would appreciate it if you would stop constantly telling us to "Drop It". This leads back to this whole big issue I have with you always thinking that you're right. If someone opposes you, you demand that they drop it. Shadow2 (talk) 22:12, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

We have no proof other than they were in Vegas. We don't know if it was north or south. We don't know if it was east or west. We only know it's the desert near Vegas and we do not need to add anything else. That's why after a month this topic should just be let go already.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:22, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2014

Please change [[ferris wheel]] to [[Ferris wheel]] and ferris wheel to Ferris wheel. Ferris is a proper name - see Ferris wheel. Thanks. 86.153.57.241 (talk) 20:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for pointing that out! —Mr. Granger (talk · contribs) 00:05, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! 86.153.57.241 (talk) 01:04, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

CLARIFICATION OF RESULTS TABLE

For the record: After a review of this talk page, I found more users in favour of listing the Leg 2 departure times as opposed to the original "incorrect" Leg 1 arrival times. This is a clear majority of opinion. Furthermore, this falls in line with all other Amazing Race tables (We do not list Heather & Eve as 1st), as well as a basic general rule for other "results" tables on non-TAR pages, where it is obvious that post-competition corrections are taken into consideration. Ryulong was pretty much the only one who voiced his opposition to this notion, and so we should be going with what more people wanted. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS: Say so on this talk page instead of just going against the stated majority and reverting the page. I'm getting tired of this. Shadow2 (talk) 22:58, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Airports

Teams performed a task at the airports in Guangzhou and Kota Kinabalu as they had to find a counter marked with an Amazing Race flag and claim tickets for a prearranged flight. It is a necessary detail and should not be removed Xoruz (talk) 13:56, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

It is not in any way a “necessary detail”. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:03, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

All tasks are necessary details. Xoruz (talk) 14:05, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Episode 1 current word count: 353. And your solution is to add more detail. 🤷‍♂️ Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:05, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Location lists are separate from the episode summary Xoruz (talk) 14:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

No, it’s all part of the summary. Bgsu98 (Talk) 14:10, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Episode summaries are listed under the locations lists and are separated. Xoruz (talk) 14:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)