Talk:Texas A&M University–Texarkana

List of presidents

(I've copied this from my User Talk page to this Talk page so other editors can more easily find it and participate. ElKevbo (talk) 19:22, 9 December 2020 (UTC))

Hi Kevin, there are many lists of university presidents on Wikipedia (not all of them sourced):

List of presidents of Washington College

List of presidents of Washington and Lee University

List of presidents of Cornell University

List of presidents of Columbia University

List of presidents of Tufts University

List of presidents of Southern University

So what was wrong with my list on Texas A&M University–Texarkana? 97.98.114.69 (talk) 05:31, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Those are stand-alone list articles; they're very different from embedded lists and deleting any of them would be a very different discussion.

I don't think that, in most cases, lists of previous college and university presidents included as embedded lists are helpful for readers. This is especially true when they're bare lists with no accompanying context or explanation. It's simply not informative to list a bunch of people without any explanation of their significance. And it's unnecessary to reassure readers that a particular college or university has had presidents in the past who preceded the current president; that's a safe assumption that can be omitted.

It's sometimes helpful to turn the question around and ask: How is this information useful to readers? What exactly are they supposed to learn from it?

I think this has been briefly discussed at WT:UNI but I think it was a brief, informal discussion without a formal resolution. ElKevbo (talk) 05:49, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that lists of university presidents are relevant and informative, and should be allowed (whether embedder or stand alone). Think of somebody who graduated 30 years ago, who does not remember who was the president when (s)he started taking classes, but finds this information on Wikipedia.

See these lists of presidents at: Howard University, Gallaudet University, Cheyney Univ. of PA embedded in the main article, just like I did for Texas A&M University–Texarkana.

Creating stand-alone list-articles (of presidents, notable alumni or faculty) is justified when entries are too many (which is the case with most old and well established universities). Shall we wait 100 years to allow a list of TAMUT presidents? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.98.114.69 (talk) 17:07, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

How exactly are they "relevant and informative?" What information, other than "this institution has had presidents," does a list without any other context or explanation provide to readers? How is a reader's understanding of the institution improved by a listing of names and dates that only convey that the institution indeed had presidents during those particular years? ElKevbo (talk) 17:34, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

You didn't touch the lists of president on Howard University, Gallaudet University, Cheyney Univ. of PA, and I think I know why. So I am going to restore the list that you deleted off Texas A&M University–Texarkana. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.98.114.69 (talk) 17:43, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Assume good faith, please. One editor can't edit every article or make every change that should be made, especially in a limited amount of time. And I don't work for you - I'm a volunteer here like everyone else. ElKevbo (talk) 18:57, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

• The proposed list of presidents with references is appended below. As long as Howard Univ., Gallaudet Univ.,Cheyney Univ. of PA, Univ. of Guam, Wilberforce Univ., Alabama State Univ. etc. are allowed embeded lists of presidents, then a list of presidents should be allowed with this article as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.98.114.69 (talk • contribs) 14:47, December 9, 2020 (UTC)

You might find it helpful to review WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS; it's often not a terribly good argument in Wikipedia to argue that another article has something in it (or simply exists) when discussing another article. In particular, I reiterate that it's impossible for volunteer editors to edit every article at the same time. I agree that these kinds of lists are in many articles but they're not helpful in those articles and should be removed but I'm a volunteer here, too, and I can't do it all this instant. ElKevbo (talk) 20:20, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Kevin, I am gong to remove the lists of presidents from Howard University, Gallaudet University, Cheyney University of Pennsylvania, University of Guam, Wilberforce University and Alabama State University. Just watch to see what happens! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.98.114.69 (talk) 21:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

If you're going to make edits like that, I strongly recommend that next you use an edit summary so that other editors know that your edits aren't vandalism of some kind. You could also direct them to this discussion or, better, the one that took place at WT:UNI a few months ago.

If you're only trying to make some kind of point - I'm not sure what your point is because you seem to insist on pretending there is some kind of grand conspiracy against this university - then you should also be aware that most editors don't take kindly to editors disrupting the project just to make a point. ElKevbo (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Presidents (or chancellors) of universities are generally considered to be notable per WP:PROF: Criterion 6 may be satisfied, for example, if the person has held the post of president or chancellor (or vice-chancellor in countries where this is the top academic post) of a significant accredited college or university, director of a highly regarded, notable academic independent research institute or center (which is not a part of a university), president of a notable national or international scholarly society, etc. User:97.98.114.69- if you resume mass deleting Presidents sections from articles to make some sort of point, you will be blocked immediately, unless there is a wide consensus for that. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 22:36, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes but we are not obligated to list every notable person associated with an institution in that institution's article. What are readers supposed to learn about the institution from lists of presidents (or any other group of people) that have no context or explanation? What does that tell readers other than "this institution has had presidents" which by itself isn't very informative or interesting?

(If anyone is wonder: Yes, I would apply this reasoning to nearly any other list of facts included in these and other articles that have no context or explanation. For example, there are many articles about colleges and universities that have lists of campus buildings with only their names and nothing else. Those, too, should be removed or expanded; as they currently exist, they tell readers nothing of value ("this university has buildings!") that they don't already know.) ElKevbo (talk) 23:28, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

I don't have a particular affinity for lists of names in articles, though it has become somewhat standard in educational institution articles. I could easily imagine that some readers may want to see a list of past presidents of an institution and read articles about them (if they exist), especially for larger and more widely known institutions. If a list seems to be taking up too much article space/screen real estate, a collapsed list is a good compromise. I came here mainly to warn the IP to not further delete lists of names from other universities, as they'd begun doing. I doubt highly doubt we could arrive at a broad consensus to do that. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 23:37, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Presidents

	Presidents of TAMUT	years as president
1	John F. Moss	(1971–1994)
2	Stephen R. Hensley	(1994–2008)
3	Carlisle B. Rathburn III	(2008-2012)
4	Emily Fourmy Cutrer	(2013–present)

References