Talk:Sun Jianai

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Crisco 1492 talk 19:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that Sun Jianai co-founded China's first national university in 1898?

• Source: Lin, Xiaoqing Diana (2005). Peking University: Chinese Scholarship and Intellectuals, 1898–1937. pp 15-27

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Al-Ma'mun al-Bata'ihi

Moved to mainspace by Generalissima (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 81 past nominations.

Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 05:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC).

• Interesting article, thanks. I will review this shortly. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

@Generalissima: are you sure it's correct to say that Sun "founded" the university? The article doesn't quite state it in that way. It seems that technically the university was established by the first edict of the Guangxu Emperor as part of the Hundred Days' Reform? If it is correct, was he the sole founder or a co-founder? Onceinawhile (talk) 11:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

• • @Onceinawhile: Good point; changed it to "co-founded". Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 16:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Generalissima: sorry to be difficult but are you sure that is right? It doesn't say founder or co-founder anywhere in the article. This source says: "On July 3, 1898, Emperor Guangxu approved a report to implement the Imperial University of Peking and to draft its charter. Sun Jianai, a senior Chinese official, was appointed “guanli daxuetang shiwu dachen,” or the (education) minister for the imperial university's affairs." The "guanli daxuetang shiwu dachen" is zh:Category:管理大学堂事务大臣. If we are to use co-founder we will need a source stating that. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: I felt that "was tasked to organize" works for "co-founded", but I'm okay deferring to an slightly alternate hook. How about
Alt1:… that Sun Jianai organized China's first national university in 1898?
(again citing the Lin 2005 source) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 20:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: ALT1 good to go! Onceinawhile (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Generalissima Peking University says that Tianjin University was older; is that incorrect? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:02, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

AirshipJungleman29 Tianjin was established as a law school with state approval, but it wasn't a national university initially - although it is now. If this seems problematic, I'm okay changing it to "one of China's first universities". Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 15:24, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Sun Jianai/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Generalissima (talk · contribs) 22:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 13:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

• Sun Jinai was born in Suzhou, Anhui on 7 April 1827. I would mention Qin China in the first sentence.
  • Done. - G
• Do we know anything of his family background?
  • Sadly not. :( - G
• Perhaps some context for the "imperial examinations"? (..., needed to a career in state administration/a preequisite for an administrative career/...)
  • Clarified. - G
• Shortly into their service, both tutors upset conservative Manchu officials after recommending that the 17th century Ming loyalists Huang Zongxi and Gu Yanwu be enshrined at the Beijing Temple of Confucius. Some context, perhaps in a footnote? Who are the Manchus? Who were the Ming loyalists? Borsoka (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Added a footnote. - G
• Introduce Li Hongzhang.
  • Done. - G
• In the aftermath of the Sino-Japanese War, officials began to advocate for the creation of a national university. A link to the war? What is the connection between the war and the university?
  • Clarified. - G
• ...to gain greater control over the guidance... Over the guidance?
• ..., but was forced to defer to his approval... By whom? I am not sure I understand the text.
  • Rewrote this section a bit. - G
• ...the first imperial minister of the university Some explanation?
  • Clarified. - G
• ....Empress Dowager Cixi regained power... We were not informed that she had lost power. Borsoka (talk) 02:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Rewrote this a bit. - G
• ...was a Qing dynasty official and educator, noted as an advisor and tutor to the Guangxu Emperor. I would refer to China in the first sentence.
• What is the logic behind the selection of the ministries in the lead? For instance the Ministry of Finance is omitted, the Ministry of Rites is mentioned although he served for the former for four or five years, and for the latter only for one or two years. Borsoka (talk) 01:07, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • He was never president of the Ministry of Revenue, only vice president. - G

Image review

• File:Emperor Guangxu (cropped).jpg: a US PD tag is needed.
  • Added. - G
• File:王文韶、銘安、孫家鼐、豫師.jpg: a US PD tag is needed.
  • This has one of those combination China/US PD tags. - G

Source review

• Only high-level academic sources are cited.
• Fan (1995): publisher is missing.
• Kwong (2000): publisher is missing.
• Either mention the place of publication at each cited work, or delete it. Borsoka (talk) 13:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
  • To my knowledge its fairly standard practice to not list publishers for journals, but list them for books. Fixed Harvard lacking location though, thank you for catching that. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 06:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
• @Borsoka: I made the requested changes. :) Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 19:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
• The source of references 3, 4, 8-10, 17 and 21 is not listed in section "Sources" (I refer to the page range.)
  • Huh? I'm confused. Since I have page numbers in the SFNs, the page numbers aren't needed for the whole book. - G
    • Weston could not write the pages cited, because his chapter "The Founding of the Imperial University and the Emergence of Chinese Modernity" covers pages from 99 to 123. Another chapter from the same book should be added.
• Reference 1 is checked.
• Why is reference 3 necessary?
  • Says basically the same as Fang, but I wanted to make sure not to rely solely on Fang for stuff since it's such an old source.
• Reference 10 does not verify the text. Borsoka (talk) 01:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
  • It does! Implementation was delayed by highly placed conservatives in the Inner Court, such as Prince Yi and the Manchu Grand Councilor Gangyi. To stall a project they opposed on ideological grounds, these figures used the argument that the university would exact too great a financial cost."
• @Borsoka: responded. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 00:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
  • @Generalissima: the missin chapter from Rethinking the 1898 Reform Period: Political and Cultural Change in Late Qing China is the only problem to be addressed. Borsoka (talk) 04:49, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

    @Borsoka: Oops! That was supposed to be Weston 2004, not Weston 2002. Fixed. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 04:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you for this excellent GA. I like your series of Chinese intellectuals. You are broadening our knowledge of the world. This is our community's purpose, is not it? Borsoka (talk) 05:03, 23 November 2024 (UTC)