Talk:Sudanese civil war (2023–present)/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Name issue

The Name is not proper for a Wikipedia article, it should be capitalized, example: Sudanese Civil War (2023-present. Other examples South Sudanese Civil War. Should I request a move to fix it? BigRed606 (talk) 21:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

It uses sentence case because it's a descriptive title, not a proper name. Sources haven't settled on a proper name for this war yet. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Analysis

Now that it has been flagged, is that one-man section really worth keeping in the article? There are lots of more concise analysis scattered throughout the article. The current section in question just sounds like borderline personal essay. Borgenland (talk) 17:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Not unless other analyses can be found. What's currently there says a whole lot of nothing. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:BOLD removed it just now. Borgenland (talk) 08:55, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 26 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Follow the sources. (closed by non-admin page mover) Cremastra (talk) 14:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

---

Sudanese civil war (2023–present) → Third Sudanese Civil War – This is the third civil war since independence. It should be titled that way to maintain consistency. Interstellarity (talk) 21:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Are there appropriate sources to support this claim? Previous attempts have been shot down as WP:OR. Borgenland (talk) 21:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. We don't use made up Wikipedia names for things, and I also find the numbering rather problematic as it can be hard to define what's a civil was and what isn't. Present title is recognizable and good.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:23, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Yet again, we dont make up random names on wikipedia. Lukt64 (talk) 00:37, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Sudan has been in conflict for so long, it is hard to tell which one we're up to (if we're adding the Darfur and South Kordofan conflicts, we'd be up to the fifth one, but even then you could theoretically lump that into its own 'Third' conflict). Shadowboxer2005 (talk) 03:41, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. While I do admit that I prefer the proposed name for several reasons, Wikipedia doesn't follow the whims of its editors. WP:RSs haven't been calling it that, therefore we can't. A part of me hopes they'll do so eventually... but hey, what're you going to do? ZionniThePeruser (talk) 04:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose see WP:OR FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Clarification: I meant explaining it in the disambiguation page--Sudanese Civil War--not the article's title. I *oppose changing the article's title to Third Sudanese Civil War, but I added the clarification that this is the third such major civil war in Sudan. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 15:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose I don't think we have enough sources and information right now to back up this name. We have also discussed this name in the past. So for now I support the current name of the article. Vamos Palmeiras (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• support this move in principle but unfortunately I have no usable argument to back it up other than my opposition to Wikipedia's article title policies and that's another discussion altogether that I don't even know how to start. Charles Essie (talk) 21:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

See the list in Sudanese Civil Wars (SCWs) just to pick up on why the first and second SCW relates to northern and southern Sudan conflict .

Naming this war the Third SCW is misleading as this war is not related to first and second. This is why the Darfur War was not named the third SCW, and the many other conflicts that followed.

Remember (and sorry if I sound patronising for an experienced editor like you), that we don’t invent names but we follow what is mentioned widely by reliable press, and I am yet to see that FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:09, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support If this page shouldn't be renamed to Third Sudanese Civil War, then why did we name the first two Sudanese Civil Wars the First and Second Sudanese Civil War? Leaving this page Sudanese Civil War (2023–present) is like naming the first civil war article Sudanese Civil War (1955–1972) and the second Sudanese Civil War (1983–2005). Obviously renaming this page Third Sudanese Civil war is a good idea especially the names of the articles of the first two civil wars of Sudan are First and Second Sudanese Civil War's respectively. I agree that this page should be changed and that I 100% support Interstellarity's decision. Also, this page;s current namer doesn't make any sense as I already explained earlier, thanks. 219.77.28.65 (talk) 01:07, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

It was named first and second according to sources. Why not call it the 4th or 5th if we just naming things as we like?

the first and second civil wars were continuation of the war in Sudan between north and south. That is why the War in Darfur is not named the third Sudanese civil war because these are different civil wars and not linked.

I really wish people stop just think that you can make up your own names for any reasons when you cannot do anything in Wikipedia if doesn’t adhere to golden rules FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

That's because the War in Darfur isn't really a civil war, but a rebellion against the then-President Omar al-Bashir. Also, renaming the page to Third Sudanese Civil War isn't something we want. I believe that we should do it as I already mentioned earlier. Also, we're not breaking any rules and that we have a reason, thanks. 219.77.28.65 (talk) 10:15, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I think you really do not understand what civil war means. Let me put it in a context you might understand, for example, the American Civil War was also between the President and rebels. All of Sudanese civil wars were between the government and so called “rebels” (very heavy quotations)

Anyway, if you don’t have sources to support your opinion or policies, your vote will be ignored FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I didn't originally plan this. However, you've got a good point. But I still think it's good if the name of the page should be moved. But like I just said, I didn't originally plan this. Let's just see if this process will be successful or not, thanks. 219.77.28.65 (talk) 12:51, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. I think almost everyone would prefer a succinct name like this but the sources are just not calling it as such, and we follow the sources. Yeoutie (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Ukraine from the infobox

Ukraine being in the infobox as a belligerent is actively misleading to readers and does not reflect the sources we are citing. These sources say that limited strikes were made by Ukraine against Wagner Group mercenaries operating in Sudan, not that Ukraine is actively supported the SAF as a co-belligerent. The sources don't even say that these mercenaries were engaged in active combat against the SAF, indeed other sources cited in the article clearly state they were merely providing military supplies to the RSF via convoy. As such, claiming that Ukraine is actively fighting on the side of the SAF is not true and should not be implied by the infobox. Devonian Wombat (talk) 02:17, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done make sense as all supporting countries are not included, include UAE, in the infobox FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:01, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Suggest removing the "Reactions" section

Currently this article is sitting at about 13000 words of text, and while its obviously a massive topic that merits as large an article as reasonable that's still very close to the maximum allocated by the guidelines on article size, especially considering further developments in the war will likely see more content added. As such, I propose removing the 'Reactions' section as a first step, since it contains mostly unimportant and outdated information. The reactions of important groups, such as the National Umma Party, Sudanese Communist Party and the international community can be covered in the 'Course of the war' and 'Foreign involvement' sections. Devonian Wombat (talk) 05:43, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

There probably shouldn't be a reactions section, it reads as a holdover from when the conflict began and doesn't fit the war it became. Rather than simply deleting the text as outdated, it would probably be worth merging it into the timeline articles if the information is absent there. CMD (talk) 06:09, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Checked, it's a holdover from 15 April when the page was about the initial outbreak of hostilities. A very different article topic now. CMD (talk) 13:11, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

you can shorten the "Casualties" and "War crimes investigations" as both can be found detailed in War crimes during the Sudanese civil war (2023–present), including sexual violence, attacks on journalists and humanitarian workers, and Darfur. FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:45, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2024

change article name to third Sudanese Civil War as it is the third in the country 173.72.3.91 (talk) 23:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template.

See the proposed move thread at the top of this page, the suggested rename was declined. RudolfRed (talk) 23:39, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2024

In the section "April 2024-present" the city name El-Fasher is spelled incorrectly in the 3rd paragraph: "On 14 June 2024, the SAF announced that it had killed Ali Yaqoub Gibril, a top RSF commander, in El Fahser." "El Fahser" should be changed to "El Fasher". Andrymio (talk) 07:35, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Fixed Left guide (talk) 07:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

On the subject of the ‘Third Civil War?” Question

Just to start, I don’t believe by Wikipedia’s rules for Common this should be the title. That’s been proven clearly. That’s not up for debate.

I just would like to argue against the notion I saw that either “This isn’t the third civil war because it’s not directly connected to the previous two” OR “It’s not third because Darfur is 3rd, or SPLM-N is third, so the numbering is wrong”.

Let me tackle both of those at once.

The First Sudanese Civil War was about South Sudan wanting either independence or autonomy from the north. They got autonomy, but the North didn’t always respect it and some in the south wanted more. Second civil war was largely about the same issues, ended with an agreement to split the country. During the second civil war other long simmering tensions in Darfur(which had been its own country prior to colonization, in fact it sided with the Central Powers against the British in WW1) boiled over, and taking advantage of the central governments distraction both pro-independence rebels and anti-Darfur militias started fighting, culminating in the genocide.

The War in Darfur was a side front in the Second Sudanese Civil War. It started in 200, a full two years before the main front ended. It also involved a lot of the same issues as the main conflict, Arabs in conflict with Sub Saharan Africans. Hence ‘War in Darfur’ and not ‘Darfur War’, it was part of the larger conflict. You’ve seen this sort of spillover and sub- conflict in other civil wars, both since(Syria had the Isis rising and Kurdish movement alongside the main Assad v Green Rebel war) and before (Russian civil war, too many to list). So this Third Conflict started because of the unresolved issues in Darfur left by the aftermath of the Secokd Civil War’s War in Darfur(which continued after the main peace agreement).

And the southern rebels factions, mainly the SPLM and specifically N, is in the same bucket. They’re fighting for the same cause as the first two wars, joining Sourh Sudan. This is another case of unresolved North-Sourh issues, Second War never fully settled the exact border and the issues of people on the wrong side of the lines. The initial lower intensity fighting following the Second Civil War and the final 2011 treaty ended in 2020, but full scale fighting reopened in the current conflict. It’s the same cause as the last two civil wars, just on a smaller scale in the border regions that never got clean resolution.

I fully agree with keeping the name as is for now, but if and when Third Sudanese Civil War becomes a commonly used name it should be changed. This isn’t secretly the 4th or 5th one. The War in Darfur was a front of the Second Civil War that took longer to end as it didn’t involve the SPLA(who were involved in the 2005 ceasefire). The SPLM-N conflict from 2011-2020 was a continuation of the prior insurgency due to disagreements on the North-South border. Both these unresolved issues left from the Second War boiled over, reopening fighting in both theatres. It’s the Third one. Only difference is now Darfur is the main theater and the Southern Seperatists are the secondary theater taking advantage of the central governments weakness instead of the other way around 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:D501:1090:B90D:9241 (talk) 21:12, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

This is just meant to build consensus from a WP:Consistent and Technically/Academically Correct perspective, so when/If the WP:Common swings we can switch without delay 2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:D110:5A16:F321:74D9 (talk) 19:21, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of UAE

I’m pretty it’s already confirmed that the UAE has been sending troops to Sudan to fight with the RSF Imnotarealhumanhehe (talk) 18:20, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

yes it is been confirmed even in the UN and has been condemned by the UK. I have now included FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Foreign Involvement Section very Unclear

It should be split based on whether someone is backing the Govt of Sudan or the RSF with a Pro Goverment section and a Pro RSF section. very difficult to figure out at first glance, unless you read the entire section. Midgetman433 (talk) 19:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)