Talk:Steller's sea cow

Maximum size?

Wikipedia's figures are fairly well reproduced, but I have occasionally seen figures of 10.7 meters or 35 feet for this animal. This site mentions that the environment may have prevented the animals from growing to their maximum size, so could the 35 foot figure come from the fossil specimens? Cameron 16:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

--Steller mentions that the species grew up to 25 ft. But maybe there were some that grew past 30ft in ancient times when food was more abundant and a larger population meant more giants? --70.59.155.91 19:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Paranormal? cryptozoology? on what basis

On what basis is this animal considered to be within the scope of project paranormal, which deals with animals whose existence if proven would not be compatible with current views of normal science. This animal is merely extinct., or perhaps probably extinct. But there's fossil record and nothing that doesn't fit into normal biology.

Furthermore, how does it fit into cryptozoology? It would only fit if some people thought it was not extinct, and that there were current sightings. No evidence is presented in the article to show this--merely that Kipling chose to use such a possibility in a fictional framework. DGG 00:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree that there is nothing paranormal about this animal. If some think that there may be surviving specimens though, it may be relevant to the "cryptozoology" project. --84.72.181.164 21:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the "cryptozoology" listing is very questionable. Is there a definition concerning how many people have to believe in a cryptid's existence for it to be relevant to the field? Additionally, should we maybe list every dinosaur species as a "cryptid" because I'm sure an occasional looney belives in their continued existence? --130.92.9.58 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

82.131.111.23 (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2010 (UTC) but they have been seen in the red sea.. just about a year ago.. 82.131.111.23 (talk) 23:57, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, that's nice, since they didn't live there, ever. FunkMonk (talk) 05:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I removed the Wikiproject Cryptozoology listing. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:57, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

Popular culture?

Are the works of Kipling really considered popular culture? --buck 02:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the heading from "In popular culture" to "In literature". Peace. --buck 13:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

"Jungle Book"? Magmagoblin2 (talk) 10:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

unreliable source in "Last hope?" section?

Much as I'd like to believe that they're not extinct... The "Last hope?" section references this source: http://www.cryptomundo.com/cryptozoo-news/stellers-seacow/ . Is http://www.cryptomundo.com/ a WP:Reliable Source? Peter Ballard 12:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC) (p.s. for future reference: the link was added by an anon user on 24-May-2007).

I've given it a tag. http://www.cryptomundo.com/ is huge and it's a little hard to tell whether it's full on quackery, or reliable. It is maintained by Loren Coleman but that's little help because his WP article has very few WP:Reliable Sources too. Peter Ballard 02:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Huh

in 1887, zoologist Leonhard Hess Stejneger estimated that at discovery there had been less than 1500 remaining .... By 1768, less than 30 years after it had been discovered, Steller's sea cow was extinct.

If it went extinct in 1768, how was there 1500 of them in 1887? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.226.101 (talk) 23:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Stejneger, writing in 1887, was estimating what the situation was back in 1741. I've reworded the article. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:26, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Other species

At the moment, Hydroamalis redirects here, but the article only covers H. gigas, not H. cuestae. So should we have separate articles for each, or have a unified Hydroamalis page? In any case, what we have now is not optimal. FunkMonk (talk) 05:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

• I was under the impression that H. gigas was the largest sirenian ever, but then I came across a site that states H. cuestae was larger than H. gigas.[1] Perhaps this should be stated in the article, if a more authoritative source can be found, since I could imagione many readers would believe the same I did. FunkMonk (talk) 16:52, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup

I have cleaned up and wikified the article to be consistent throughout (sentence case notably for mammal names) and removed the claim that Verne's writings had an influence on marine conservationists (which had been tagged since 2009 with a cite needed tag and sounds like WP:OR).

There was also a cite tage needed at the end which I assume was referring to the claim that Steller discovered the sea cow during the expedition with Bering. I have removed this and reffed the information concerned in the lede. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 19:25, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, thought that I better add that the page title is going to change to Stellar's sea cow, I tried moving it myself but it didn't work, I have requested assistance, then this title will become a redirect. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 19:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

You just have to add a move request here. FunkMonk (talk) 19:40, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Well I posted over at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Cetaceans but no-one answered yet, I have to request a delete for the page Steller's sea cow first don't I? It's a redirect but there seems to be some sort of history issue going on and that's why I couldn't move. I successfully moved Steller's sea ape using Twinkle. Can you help or do I just stick the move template on this page? CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 22:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Take a look here, it's pretty easy, no need for a separate deletionn request, it'll be taken care of during the move: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:RM FunkMonk (talk) 22:16, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks I'll take a look in the morning. I am a serendipitous editor and do not obsess about one thing so when I read articles I'm like omg the caps or the punc or the numbers and then I have to go check WP:MOS or FSM knows what. For example, I wikified this article to death yesterday and when I came back today I noticed it said "from 8 meters to 9 metres" and the conversion was in ft and then written out longhand foot, so back to the MOS and find the template and so on. So it's always helpful to have a "point in the right direction". Many mercis. CaptainScreebo ^Parley! 22:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

You're welcome, most of the time when I have to find those pages, I have to Google them or look at other talk pages, not the easiest to find... FunkMonk (talk) 22:47, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

File:F John Series 2 Rhytina card 20.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:F John Series 2 Rhytina card 20.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 14:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Hydrodamalis gigas drawing.png Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Hydrodamalis gigas drawing.png, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 15 January 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 01:40, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

I propose the Steller's sea cow article be renamed Hydrodamalis (which is currently a redirect) because there are two hydrodamalines, Steller's sea cow (H. gigas) and Cuesta sea cow (H. cuestae). So, rather than creating a separate stub-class article on H. cuestae which would be barely ten sentences long, I recommend that the two species should be discussed in one article.   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:52, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I would think that redirecting the page to the genus to talk about both species would confuse people looking for information just on Steller's sea cow.--Mr Fink (talk) 03:12, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Besides, what's so terrible about making another stub?--Mr Fink (talk) 03:14, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Apokryltaros I wrote it so that there are specific paragraphs just about Steller's sea cow and just about the Cuesta sea cow, so there shouldn't be confusion about anything   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:51, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I see no reason why there should not be an article on each species, plus one for the genus, as is the standard for organisms of all kinds, so I'm against this particular move. Peter coxhead (talk) 05:22, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I also think the better solution is to simply create a separate article for the other species, as is the case for most other "recent" species. FunkMonk (talk) 11:21, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I also oppose the proposed move, as well as the recent edits that have moved this article away from its species-focus. The Steller's sea cow has great individual notability, and an article focused on it is useful to readers who may look it up. CMD (talk) 11:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I also oppose the move. Hydrodamalis is the genus name and not the replacement name for the Steller's sea cow and common names (in particular when they are well established) should be used in favour of Latin names --Melly42 (talk) 12:29, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

New articles it is then   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  13:40, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I brought the issue up six years (!) ago[2], happy something will finally be done, hehe... FunkMonk (talk) 13:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I was actually about to nominate for GAN and then I saw your comment from six years ago (which started all of this)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:31, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Nice! I guess it's this article that you'll nominate? FunkMonk (talk) 16:44, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Yup   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:00, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

I also echo the call for separate articles for the two species and genus. The present state where the two species are discussed in the Steller's sea cow article is confusing. There is nothing wrong with stub or short articles. Jason Quinn (talk) 18:58, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Cuesta sea cow, Hydrodamalis, and Steller's sea cow are now different articles   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:47, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

@Dunkleosteus77: good work; an excellent example of a cooperative approach to editing, sadly not universal on Wikipedia. Thanks! Peter coxhead (talk) 08:21, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Steller's sea cow/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Insertcleverphrasehere (talk · contribs) 23:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I feel that this article meets all the criteria for GA, with one possible exception: In the "Portrayals in media" section the bit about The Jungle Book needs a source. The main article on The Jungle Book does mention that one of the characters is a Steller's sea cow, however, there is no source in that article either, and so this is currently unverified. This source I found seems to verify it, though I'd prefer a secondary source.

Other than that rather minor quibble I'd say that the article is a great piece of work. Well done.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  23:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:14, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Listed as a GA.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  05:05, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

FA review

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 23:35, 17 March 2017 [3].

---

Steller's sea cow

Nominator(s):   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  06:37, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

This article is about Steller's sea cow, a large sirenian that went extinct in modern times. I believe this article's up to FA criteria   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  06:37, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Comments from FunkMonk

• Will read through this soon, but at first glance, I see somewhat serious problems, but since you usually work fast and effectively, I think they can be worked out. FunkMonk (talk) 13:38, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
• First, it is a bit messy to combine all info about physical features, biology, and ecology, into one large section, it would be better to keep them in separate section, as in virtually all other articles, to keep focus. Now the section jumps wildly between unrelated subjects.

split   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• You are combining a section that should be abut distribution facts with unconfirmed "sightings" long after the confirmed extinction date. Info about such "sightings" (and anything else not based on facts) should be moved to the extinction section, as they have nothing to do with the confirmed historical range of the animal.

done, but I kept the part about Turner in the range section, and anything talking about its range up into the 1800s.   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• The article seems quite short, but I guess not much is known about this animal. Have you looked through Google scholar and similar for further sources?

I'll get to expanding later.   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• The notable fact that it had no finger bones is not mentioned, which also makes me uncertain about the comprehensiveness of the rest of the text. Perhaps there should be more purely descriptive info about the skeleton, all we have left of the animal.

Found this but it's really technical, and I can't understand a word of it. Think you can help?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:30, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I think you can ignore the detailed description section of that article (unless you find something that is udnerstandable) and jump straight so summarising interesting bits of the conclusion and discussion sections of that article. FunkMonk (talk) 16:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

added a paragraph   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:30, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• It appears the only known drawing from life was made by a Friedrich H. Plenisner[4], yet this article credits Steller himself. The drawing shown in this article also appears to be of uncertain origin. If your sources discuss the circumstances of these illustrations, it is very important info to add.

You mean add it to the caption or to the article?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

To the article, but the caption would of course have to be modified accordingly. There are two issues that need to be handled: there were drawings made originally by Plenisner, which seem to be lost, and the drawing that is now in the infobox may be one of those. No other drawings of actual specimens seem to exist, and none were drawn by Steller himself. FunkMonk (talk) 17:37, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

The caption does say "thought to be". Also, his full name is Friedrich Plenisner, right?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Seems so. FunkMonk (talk) 16:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

added section on illustrations   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:30, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

• Any reason why the media appearances are not listed chronologically?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• The old illustrations should have dates in their captions to show their historical context.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• I think a clear close up of the skull, such as this[5], should be shown.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:35, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• The taxonomy section could describe the circumstances around the discovery in more detail, and explain the meaning of the scientific names. There also seem to be many unexplained synonyms. On what basis were they named?

The circumstances? They got shipwrecked. this link has a lot of info but I'm not sure exactly what is relevant. Should I talk about their first sea cow hunt?

Seems like a relevant addition. FunkMonk (talk) 16:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

added to the Extinction and sightings section   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:30, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Anything on the meaning of the scientific names? FunkMonk (talk) 19:25, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I can't find anyone who says what "Hydrodamalis" means but "gigas" is Latin for "giant"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:00, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• Why does the intro begin with "the"? Glancing at the sources, few if any say "the Steller's sea cow", but you use it throughout the article. We should follow the majority of the sources.

Some people use it, some people don't. Since it starts with the name of a person, it could go either way, and I think it's alright. Do you still want me to continue?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, we should always do what the majority of sources do, so it comes down to that. FunkMonk (talk) 17:37, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:20, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

• The first sentence of the article body should mention the full name, not just "the sea cow".

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• The first sentence reads "The Steller's sea cow grew to at least 8 to 9 m (26 to 30 ft) in length as an adult" I think that this wording doesn't work grammatically and is awkward prose. Something can't grow to 'at least' a range of sizes. 'at least 9 m' or 'sea cow grew 8 to 9 m in length' could work, or some other wording, but the current wording is not good I think.  InsertCleverPhraseHere  20:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

changed to "...grew to be 8 to 9 m..."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 

• Seems there has been a lot of good expansion of the article during the last few days, so I'll continue reviewing soon. FunkMonk (talk) 16:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
• Terms like rostrum, papillae, and canthi could be explained. "Epoch" could be added after terms like Holocene.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• "They had a large genioglossus, the muscle responsible for sticking out the tongue." Why not group this info with the rest of the text about the tongue further down?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• On the lack of fingers, this blog post hints at some papers that discuss this: http://caribbeanpaleobiology.blogspot.dk/2011/06/hand-of-stellers-sea-cow-revisited.html

added a sentence   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not sure a gallery of largely repetitive or unrelated images is needed, per WP:Galleries. FunkMonk (talk) 13:32, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I removed the ones that aren't talked about in the article   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:46, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• "The group also attacked the boat " How does a sea cow attack?

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• "exhibited childcare." Parental care would be a less anthropomorphic way to say it.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• There is quite a bit of behavioural info in the description section. I'd recommend renaming the ecology section "Ecology and behaviour" or some such, and moving the info there, as in most other animal articles.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• It seems that the tail fluke was bilobed, which could be mentioned.

I said "forked" which is a synonym   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't see it in the article, though? FunkMonk (talk) 10:33, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

oops, added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:00, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

• "the Dusisiren" Genus names do not need definite articles.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:26, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

• " In 1811, naturalist Johann Karl Wilhelm Illiger placed Steller's sea cow under the genus Rytina, which many writers at the time adopted. However, the animal had already been classified long before this. Zoologist Eberhard August Wilhelm von Zimmermann had described its specific name as gigas in 1780, but placed it in the genus Manati. Biologist Anders Jahan Retzius placed it under the genus Hydrodamalis, 17 years before Illiger had described the sea cow as Rytina. He, however, described its specific name as stelleri, as Steller was the first person to describe it.[4] The name Hydrodamalis gigas was first used in 1895 by Theodore Sherman Palmer.[1]" What's the point of summarising this history in the wrong order? You should describe it in chronological order, otherwise it will be needlessly confusing to readers.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:37, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• "This may be due to unidentifiable remains" Wording seems strange. Due to the remains being unidentifiable?

changed to, "wrongly-identified remains"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:37, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• "many large bones during this time period, from which complete skeletons were erected." I assume you mean these bones belonged to different individuals, but were used to make complete skeletons? Could be stated more clearly then.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:37, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• It would be better to order the illustrations in the gallery after the order they are discussed in the text.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:37, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• "Their range at the time of their discovery" I think you need to name the subject in the beginning of a new section, "their" is too vague.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:37, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• I found an online version of Stejneger's book about Steller's voyage[6], perhaps there is something useful that could be added. In any case, it contains a now public domain reconstruction of Steller dissecting a sea cow, which I have added, as I think is relevant enough (mentioned here[7]). FunkMonk (talk) 17:23, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
• I would right align the photo of the sea otter, since it is recommended that subjects face the text, and then it would not clash with the section header under it.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• Having read the range section again, I still think the late survival claim by Turner is way too unreliable to have in a section that should reflect scientific consensus, not speculation. There must be a reason why the IUCN accepts an earlier extinction date, and we should reflect the consensus view here. All speculation on survival past 1768 should be placed under sightings. Furthermore, it is already mentioned earlier in the section that the sea cow existed around the Near Islands, so the Turner sentence doesn't add anything at all about the range, and therefore doesn't belong in that section, regardless of how reliable it is.

moved   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• I would further suggest that you don't muddle up the info on the accepted extinction events with that about later sightings, and instead give later sightings their own header ("possible" or "claimed" sightings, to make it clear). See for example the similar section[8] in woolly mammoth. It is very important that we don't mix accepted views with fringe views haphazardly.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• "The first fossils discovered outside the Commander Islands were interglacial Pleistocene deposits in Amchitka" Deposits are not fossils, so you need to add "were found in".

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• As stated below, you need sources that specifically say the sea cows mentioned by Kipling and Verne are Steller's sea cows, otherwise it is OR. The way different sources are put together to support a claim not stated in either one them (as with the Verne manatee) is WP:Original synthesis.

removed Verne's, but Kipling specifically says "Sea Cow" and it takes places in the Bering Sea   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

added ref for Jungle Books that specifically says "Steller's sea cow"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:27, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• You should give years of publication for all the pop culture entries, for some reason you only give it for two.

I'm not citing the book, I'm citing the review/summary (where it actually explicitly analyses it)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I mean in-text dates for when the books mentioned were published, not the sourcing. FunkMonk (talk) 13:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:41, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

• I'm not a sourcing expert, but this doesn't look right at all for a book citation: "Species Evanescens (Russian Edition). Amazon.com. ASIN 9079625027."

it's not a book, it's the amazon summary that somewhat analyses the book   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• To be honest, I don't see a compelling reason why the pop culture section is even needed. Apart form the documentary, none of the entries are even about the sea cow, but only briefly mentions them. But I won't push for removal unless others do.
• Again, there are still text under description which is not about physical description, but behaviour and ecology, such as "The forelimbs, according to Steller, were used as a sort of holdfast to anchor itself down to prevent being swept away by the strong nearshore waves around their habitat." and "Their large size was probably an adaptation to reduce their surface-area-to-volume ratio and conserve heat. Based on the larger average size of Pleistocene specimens from the Aleutian Islands, it has been hypothesized that the growth of Commander Island sea cows was stunted due to the marginalized environment with a less favorable habitat than the warmer Aleutian Islands."

moved   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• "make great material" Sounds like a commercial, not like a neutral account. You could sya the bones are "well suited" or some such.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• Any reason why the text udner "Commercial value" isn't chronological? You start by mentioning uses today, then jump back to the 1700s, and then forwards to the 1800s. It is especially puzzling, since the last paragraph about skeletons in museums seems very fitting right before the text about use of the bones today.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• The external links section could be pruned, some of the sites there are already used as sources in the article body, and other sites have no information not found in the article.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:49, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• I would put "Portrayals in media" last, it makes more chronological sense.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:41, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

• "When the crew of the Great Northern Expedition were stranded on Bering Island, they hunted Steller's sea cow with relative ease; because of their large size, the challenge was hauling the animal back to shore. Their success inspired maritime fur traders on their North Pacific expeditions to stop by the Commander Islands and restock their food supply by hunting sea cows" Isn't this pretty much the same information as in the preceding sentences? If so, should be merged.

The success of Bering's crew in sea cow hunting attracted hungry fur traders who were hunting sea otters in the North Pacific   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:52, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• "sea urchins would have increased and reduced availability of kelp" How? I assume they eat the kelp?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:52, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• I think you should state specifically in the article that 1768 is the widely accepted extinction date.

It says "By 1768... Steller's sea cow was extinct"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:52, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• "It was also hunted for its valuable subcutaneous fat, which was not only used for food (usually as a butter substitute), but also for oil lamps because it did not give off any smoke or odor and could be kept for a long time in warm weather without spoiling." This info is repeated again in the commercial value section.

removed the purposes of the fat   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:52, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• "and probably belong to an arctic cetacean" Singular would imply it was bones of a single species of whale, plural would be better.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:52, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• Why isn't the book under further reading used as a source?

it is   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:52, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

In that case, the further reading section is redundant. It is for publications not used as citations. FunkMonk (talk) 09:28, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

removed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:19, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

• Are there any remains left from the sea cows killed in historical times? Brought home by people who had actually killed them? Or have they all just been found as bones?

found as bones as far as I know   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:52, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

• "that was found exclusively around the Commander Islands" The article suggests they were found more widely.

added "at the time of their discovery"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 

• I think there could be a bit more general physical description and behaviour info in the intro.

is it good now or should I keep going?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:50, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Looks good to me. FunkMonk (talk) 09:15, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

• I made some changes myself, but when the points above are fixed, I'll be ready to support. FunkMonk (talk) 09:38, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Seems there are two points left, then I can support. Better make them quick, before this is archived by a coordinator. FunkMonk (talk) 14:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

done. Sorry it took so long, the flu's been going around   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  14:41, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

No problem for me personally (if this was a GAN, we could go on indefinitely), but FAC articles get archived if they have no supports after some time. FunkMonk (talk) 15:02, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

• Support - this looks comprehensive to me now, and the structure makes more sense. I'd remove the further reading section if the book listed is also used as a source, but that's about it. Good to see this animal get some attention! FunkMonk (talk) 15:02, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Vanamonde

Looks like a decent article, good job on getting it thus far. However, I think there are a good many prose issues, which force me to oppose until they are resolved. Vanamonde (talk) 16:37, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Any other comments?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:51, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Not at the moment, but there are two issues: about singular/plural with respect to the animal and the phylogeny; which are still to be addressed. Vanamonde (talk) 03:00, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:40, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

• Okay, all but two of my specific issues have now been addressed, but the issue with the phylogeny suggests to me that there might be other issues of source misinterpretation. Thus I am not willing to support this in the absence of a source review that does spot checks. At the moment I do not have the time to do this, but I might at some point in the future: and this will require a source review to pass in any case, so I do not think I am unfairly holding this up. Vanamonde (talk) 07:00, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: Ealdgyth did a source review. Do you have any other comments?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:24, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Lede

• "the Commander Islands, which is situated" shouldn't it be "are"?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:51, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

• "which is the sole surviving member of the Dugongidae of which Steller's sea cow was also a part of." missing commas, and also some redundancy

added a comma after "Dugongidae"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:51, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

• 'had a much thicker epidermis than other sirenians in response" Seems like odd wording; how about "than other sirenians, which they evolved in response"

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:51, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

• "Like other sirenians, they probably cared for their young." Other sirenians don't "probably" care for their young: the ones we know of definitely do.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:51, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

• "Georg Wilhelm Steller had discovered Steller's sea cow along with the Commander Islands in 1741 on Vitus Bering's Great Northern Expedition where they were shipwrecked, and much of what is known about the sea cow in life comes from Steller's account on the island documented in his posthumous publication "The Beasts of the Sea"." This is a massive run-on sentence, and also seems ungrammatical: an expedition is a singular, not a plural.

pretty sure it's not a run-on, "they" refers to the crew of the expedition, and it's grammatically correct   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:51, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Even if correct, strictly speaking, it does not flow well, and is difficult to understand. Please break it up. Also, plural would only be correct if you introduced "members of the expedition" at some point.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• "though there were sightings proceeding 1768." What does "proceeding 1768" mean? I think "preceding" is what you intend: in which case, it is redundant with the earlier fragment

"proceeding" basically means "continuing past/through/etc." and "after," and it was intentional   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:51, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Again, perhaps correct, but I would prefer a more widely used phrasing.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• "They feature a role in various media" clearer as "are feutured in various media"

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Description

• "Their large size was probably to reduce" odd phrasing: I'd suggest "...size was an adaptation to reduce..."

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• The lede mentions the epidermis as an adaptation to cold, this section as an adaptation to abrasion; why the difference?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

• "Unlike other sirenians, Steller's sea cow was positively buoyant, meaning they could not completely submerge. " Singular vs plural

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

• Is there no information available about sexual dimorphism, or lack thereof?

nope   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Ecology and behavior

• "They may have also fed on seagrasses, but this could not have been a main food source" should be these seagrasses.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• As I've mentioned above, the article keeps switching between referring to the sea cow in the singular and the plural. I think either is fine, as as long as it is consistent.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• No, actually, there are several remaining.

• "although they could have been born year-round" the "could have" here is confusing. Did he actually say he saw calves being born year round, or only that he has no evidence that they are not?

"The young are born at any time of year, but most frequently in autumn, as I judged from the new-born little ones that I saw about that time"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• So say it as he does.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Taxonomy

• "It most likely went extinct" better to specify what went extinct, for clarity

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• Unless I'm reading something very wrong, the text and the phylogeny are saying different things. The phylogeny shows Steller's sea cow as the more basal lineage, and the Cuesta sea cow as the more derived.

the cladogram says H. cuestae and H. spissa are more closely related to each other than to H. gigas   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• I see you've fixed that error, thanks; but I checked the source, and the depiction of the Dusisiren is different in Furusawa's paper than here. Why is that?

that's basically the cladogram version of the phylogenetic tree, I just lumped all the Dusisiren together instead of making individual branches for each one. Same basic idea's conveyed here   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree. The source shows the dusisiren as a paraphyletic taxon, and suggests that H. Gigas and some dusisiren are actually more closely related than the dusisiren are to each other. This is a fundamental difference from the source. Vanamonde (talk) 06:21, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:56, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

• " no osteological evidence of the existence of Steller's sea cow, that is skeletal remains" probably clearer as "no osteological evidence, or skeletal remains, of the existence of Steller's sea cow.."

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• There is a reference in this section to possible differences in the appearance of juveniles, but no mention of this in the description

The source says the drawing looks like a West Indian manatee calf which has those folds   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Then that's what the text should say; it is OR to suggest that it looks like a juvenile Steller's sea cow.

"According to the proportions of the body it might represent a juvenile...for comparison the picture of a baby manatee [picture of a baby manatee above]...probably however this is, as Heptner believed, a 'heavily distorted' copy"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Range

• "Their range at the time of their discovery was apparently restricted to the Commander Islands, which consists mainly of Bering Island and Copper Island," "consists mainly" is strange phrasing: "of which the prominent members are" might be better.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• Additionally, it's probably best to be explicit that the range was the shallow seas off the coast of these islands: if I'm not mistaken, often quite far off the coast.

changed to "...restricted to the shallow seas around the Commander Islands..."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

• "remains of three individuals were preserved" should be either "are preserved" or "were found preserved"

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:23, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Extinction and sightings

• I'm a little dissatisfied with the ordering of content in this section. The logical sequence would be "Indigenous hunting - first attempts at hunting by Europeans - Commercial hunting - extinction, possible later sightings - analysis"

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Commercial value

• "Steller's sea cow bones are being sold commercially, however they probably do not actually belong to a Steller's sea cow specimen, more likely an arctic cetacean." Confusing sentence. Would suggest "Steller's sea cow bones are sold commercially today; however, these are highly unlikely to be genuine, and are probably those of an arctic cetacean."

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

• "Suggest "As the animal is extinct" in the next sentence.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Portrayals in the media

• I'm a little dissatisfied with the first two paragraphs of this section, as they seem to be borderline original research. The media in question obviously do not make the connection to Stellers' sea cow specifically; but do the sources do so? If the sources are also only mentioning a generic sea cow, then I'm afraid these paragraphs need to go. Vanamonde (talk) 06:24, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

I added a ref for the Jungle Books one that specifically says "Steller's sea cow", and removed Vernes   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:27, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

• I think the use of Amazon as a source is inappropriate. Given the context, using the work in question as a source should be okay; or you should find a reliable secondary source.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:54, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Other

• If you are using a books as a source, it should not be labelled "further reading".

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:19, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie

I'll add comments as I go through the article; it might take me a couple of days. I'll copyedit as I go -- please revert if I screw anything up.

• You give two different definitions for "papillae" in the "Description" section.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:12, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

• "15,160 centimetres (5,968 in)": this is from a 1751 source? I think it would be better to convert these numbers into metres and feet.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:12, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

• "the Takikawa sea cow and Steller's sea cow are more derived than to Cuesta sea cow": "derived than to" looks like a typo of some kind.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

• "preserved in the South Bight Formation of Amchitka, a rare occurrence": what's the basis for "a rare occurrence"? I looked at the source and couldn't find anything to support, but I also noticed you don't have a page range on that reference (Whitmore & Gard).

"The South Bight exposure ... is a rare occurrence of late Pleistocene interglacial deposits in the Aleutians; the abundance of Hydrodamalis gigas in this limited exposure suggests that the species may have been widely distributed in the Aleutians at that time."   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

It wasn't clear what it was that was rare, so I've expanded this a little; I think that does it if you're OK with the edit. You still need to add the page reference to the citation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:52, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

• "so it is much more likely that the animal died between 1710 and 1785": I think this is too strong a statement given that the source also says "all that can be said for certain is that the rib from Kiska is less than 1,000 yr old". Mention of the date range of 1710-1785 is fine, since they say that in the source, but the caveat needs to be stronger.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

I reworded this, as you'd taken the text almost straight from the source, which is not allowed per WP:PARAPHRASE. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:59, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

• "This population may have also had confrontations with humans": "confrontations" doesn't seem like the right word, since the aggression was presumably all one way. Do you mean "wiped out by" or "driven to extinction by", or something similar?

changed it to "interactions"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:22, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

That's it for a first pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:05, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Reading through again:

• "the ancestors of Dusisiren were associated with tropical mangroves, and adapted to the cold climates of the North Pacific and to consuming kelp": I assume this is meant to indicate a sequence, so perhaps make this "and subsequently adapted", as otherwise it's not immediately clear.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Plus the page number fix above. Once those two points are fixed I'll support. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:16, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

Support. I took the page numbers back out of the Whitmore citation, after asking elsewhere how this situation is usually handled. At Broad-billed parrot, for example, the reference Hume 2007 is 76 pages long, which is too much for a reader to search through for a citation, so for that reference short form citations were used to point directly at the pages cited. For the shorter articles this wasn't done. Personally I'd prefer to see every citation supported by a page ref directly to the pages the reader would need to see, but that's not a FAC requirement. For Whitmore, since you're using it to support multiple facts, it's not appropriate to put in the page numbers, and that's why I deleted them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:07, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

I think that's for book refs. Whitmore is a journal   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:11, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator note: Vanamonde93, have you had a chance to look at this again? I think you wanted someone to look at the sources, and I believe Mike Christie did so in his review above. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I looked at a couple, but I don't think I would claim I've done a full source review; I certainly didn't verify formatting. However, I did a couple of spotchecks in following up one or two of the questions I had. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:20, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

It was the spot checks that I was thinking of rather than the formatting. A source review could be requested at WT:FAC as we will need one anyway. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Jens Lallensack

I just started reading and will add comments below as I go

Lead

• There are some termini which should be linked, such as blubber, bristles, kelp
• As opposed to teeth, it had an array of white bristles, – I think this could be clearer. Where are the bristles located, and what are they used for? Perhaps better "instead of teeth" than "opposed to teeth"?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Second paragraph has many short sentences starting with "It". Perhaps add more prose?

merged some sentences   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Georg Wilhelm Steller discovered Steller's sea cow – I would add "Naturalist Georg Wilhelm Steller" or something similar, such information is very useful for the reader.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Description

• much larger than the extant sirenians of today; – a tautology, since extant and today mean the same.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Where in the mouth are the bristles and keratinous plates located? And how many keratinous plates?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• The small eyes were parallel to the nostrils, halfway between them and the ears – I don't understand this sentence.

fixed?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• it used sphincters – Sphincters is linked, but the linked article does not explain the term (?), perhaps add a short explanation?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• link "irises" and "sea otters"

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Its tongue was rough with short lingual papillae, small structures on the tongue that give it texture – I don't get the point here yet (I mean, what does this tell me?), what does it mean that the papillae are short, are they shorter than in other sirenians?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• larger on the vertebral side and narrower towards the neck – with "vertebral side", are you referring to "posterior"? This sounds like "medial" to me.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• The deltoid tuberosity, the part of the humerus that is attached to the deltoid muscle, was large and shield-shaped. – Any inferences? Are the fins more powerful than in other sirenians because of a larger muscle?

not that I can see. Should I just delete it?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• and on the proximal end of the anterior side of the radius was a tuberosity which connected to the brachialis muscle – Now you start using anatomical terminology (which is not linked), it would be better to use more common terms here. Hm, you give very specific detail here; imho it would be better to point out why this information is notable.

the source never mentions any inferences. Should I just delete it?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:34, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• More comments will follow tomorrow. It appears to be a interesting, well-researched article. So far I see two general problems:
  • Language and Prose; understanding the article is sometimes not as easy as it should be, at least for me (I am not a native speaker though).
  • Detail. Of course, I don't have a general objection against detail, but if you state something like "on the proximal end of the anterior side of the radius was a tuberosity which connected to the brachialis muscle", you should also add why this specific information is notable. Without this information ("this is important why …") the reader will not have a chance to learn something from it, and might get the impression that he is flooded with unnecessary, unimportant and random detail. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:18, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
• The heart of Steller's sea cow was detached from all sides, and enveloped in a loose pericardium which formed a cavity in the thorax; so, instead of facing perpendicularly, it made an oblique angle to the back. The base of the heart was surrounded by a 1.3-centimetre (1⁄2 in) layer of fat. The pericardium was fastened to the inner wall of the diaphragm. The lungs were white and extended from the chest cavity into the abdominal cavity. They were encased in a thick membrane and were, like the heart, detached. The liver had three lobes, one of which was small, anvil-shaped, and situated between the other two lobes. It was encased in a fibrous membrane. The gallbladder was absent, but it did have a common bile duct. The kidneys were large, measuring 81 centimetres (32 in) in length and 46 centimetres (18 in) in width. The stomach was also large, measuring 1.8 metres (6 ft) long and 1.5 metres (5 ft) wide. The entirety of the intestinal tract was 151 metres (500 ft) long.[11] – I feel a bit uneasy about this whole paragraph. Again, a lot of detail, and the question if everything is notable enough. But what bothers me the most: This is based on the original historical account of Seller himself, from 1751. I do not want to say that this information is flawed, but basing a biological description on such a historical account is close to original research, since the content has to be translated into the modern biological context. And you have to decide yourself which parts of this information are notable in this modern context. For example, you elaborate which organs are detached, but is this observation even specific for the species, or rather a common trait in mammals (if so, the information would be worth nothing here)? In my opinion, it would be much better not to use the historical source directly, and instead rely on recent scientific reviews of these historical sources (e.g. Forsten and Youngman 1982, which is not cited in the article yet).

  so delete it?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

deleted   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:19, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Pardon me for jumping in; Dunkleosteus77, I can send you a PDF of Forsten and Youngman if you send me a Wikipedia email. I think the issue is not so much about deleting this particular description; it's about using the most current sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:44, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

  you got a link instead? Or maybe a link to an abstract?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:54, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

  Here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:01, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

• Regarding the detail: The two things mentioned above (deltoid tuberosity, and radius tuberosity), yes, I really would remove this. It just does not help anybody. Other details you give however are absolutely fun, and I really don't want to see them removed. The problem is that the selection of this information appears arbitrary. For example, you give the color of both the iris and the eyeball, but you do not mention the body color of the animal itself, which would be a much more important thing to know?

I don't see where he explicitly states the colour of the animal. Should I delete the eye part?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

removed part about deltoids   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:01, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

• I cannot continue reviewing before Friday, unfortunately. I would be interested to make some additions/changes myself, if you would be fine with this? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

okay   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Since Dusisiren, the sister taxon of Steller's sea cow and other hydrodamalines, had reduced phalanges (finger bones), it is possible that Steller's sea cow did not have a manus. – I am confused, I thought Hydrodamalines would include Dusisiren, or is the article Hydrodamalinae incorrect?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Steller noted that it grew thin during the frigid winters, indicating a period of fasting. – Does this mean that it willingly abstained from eating (as "fasting" would imply)? Or is this because food is not accessible?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Much like Steller's sea cow, the ancestors of Dusisiren were associated with tropical mangroves – Does this sentence lack a "those" ("Much like those of Steller's sea cow")?

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Phylogeny section: Since you are mentioning hydrodamalines later, you should introduce this group also. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:40, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

added a brief sentence   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• The range of Steller's sea cow at the time of its discovery was apparently restricted to the shallow seas around the Commander Islands, which consist primarily of Bering Island and Copper Island,[28][27][9][11] and which remained uninhabited until the Russian-American Company relocated Aleuts from Attu Island and Atka Island to hunt sea otters. – The most important info here is not given: When does this happen?

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• late Pleistocene interglacial deposits are rare in the Aleutians, so the discovery suggests that sea cows were abundant in this area during the Pleistocene. – You can't say "abundant" based on only three specimens.

late Pleistocene interglacial deposits are rare, so the discovery of even one specimen would indicate some level of abundance (and the source also draws the same conclusion)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

• The dating may be skewed due to the marine reservoir effect; the large reserves of C14 in the oceans cause radiocarbon-dated marine creatures to appear much older than they actually are by several hundred years, but the size of the necessary correction is not know; it has been estimated to be between 450 and 1,000 years. – First I would suggest making two sentences out of it. Second, "it has been estimated to be between 450 and 1,000 years", do you mean the "size of the correction"? If you mean the fossil itself, you don't need to give to datings. I would suggest to shorten this info.

I made it less confusing   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

• This population may have also been hunted into extinction by humans.[27] – Please specify: Driven into extinction by native or western people? Could be a bit more elaborated. I see this is discussed below in "extinction". Then I would suggest just remove this sentence in section "Range".

removed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose (given the limited time remaining for this nomination) – as I'm still concerned with the quality of the article. Main concerns include the prose, the content (in some sections it still appears a bit as a collection of random information rather than a coherent buildup of information; a lot could be added to the description section), and the sources used. I also have to agree with Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) that the rothauscher website might not quality as a reliable source, and a lot of content in the article is based on it. Better use the original sources directly. But still, I think the article is almost there, on the edge of becoming FA. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 12:03, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

looks like rothauscher is a book. I fixed it. What could be added to the Description section? All that comes to mind is listing the size of random parts (like different bones and organs). For the record, the only thing said about bones (other than shape) is that they are huge; seriously, the only thing I can find is a bunch of statistics basically saying they're huge   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Ealdgyth

Source review from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)

• What makes this a high quality reliable source?

it's well-sourced and I think it's either a book (Die Stellersche Seekuh) or a summary of that book ISBN 978-3-8370-1793-9   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. The best method is a mix of all of the above. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:16, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

it gives a list of references which are all German journal articles and books (but there are some in English)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:55, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

looks like it's a book. I fixed it   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:51, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

• Ref 10 (Berta, Annalissa) does not have a place of publication, but the rest of your book sources do. Needs to be consistent.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Ref 11 (Stellar) - I cannot get the ISBN to work here -

I don't see the problem, it works for me   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

added OCLC numbers   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:01, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

• Ref 14 (Berta, Sumich, Kovacs) does not have a place of publication, but most of the rest of your books sources do. Needs to be consistent.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Ref 19 (Domning) - same as the two above.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Is ref 20 (Marsh, Helene) a book? If so, it needs a place of publication like most of the rest of your book sources.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• not required, but could we source "The range of Steller's sea cow at the time of its discovery was apparently restricted to the shallow seas around the Commander Islands, which consist primarily of Bering Island and Copper Island," to a slightly better source than the tertiary Brittanica.com?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

You can go ahead and remove the Britannica source, as it's not really up to the standards of most of the rest of your sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:16, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Ref 28 (MacDonald) ... needs a place of publication to conform to most of the rest of the book sources.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Ultra picky but ref 31 is actually from the Yale University Press, not "Yale University" - and it (you guessed it) needs a place of publication.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

If a spot check of sources is needed, it'll have to be someone else, as I don't have access to most of these sources.

Except for the above quibbles, the sources all look to be of high quality and reliable. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I will say that I think that finding more modern sources for the description would not be a bad thing (referring to the above discussion.) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:16, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments SUPPORT by Elmidae

edit: Article seems in fine shape now, and presents a concise and very readable summary of most of the salient data information we have about the species.--Elmidae (talk · contribs) 07:41, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Just a few things I noticed:

• Description: "Its large size was probably an adaptation to reduce its surface-area-to-volume ratio and conserve heat", in the first paragraph of the description section, links to Surface-area-to-volume ratio#Biology. While this is technically correct, it may be more helpful to link to the specifically biogeographical instantiation, Bergmann's rule, since as far as I know all adaptive interpretations of the sea cow's massive size have suggested this particular driver (heat conservation) rather than any of the others mentioned at the current link (nutrient exchange, buoyancy, etc.).

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Description: In the second description paragraph, the length of the bristles is given in inches, converted to cm; all other measurements are given in cm, converted to inches. I assume that this is due to difference of usage in sources, but at least the length of the tongue is cited to the same source as the bristles (translation of Steller's original), so maybe a double check re "original" units might be good here.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Phylogeny: wikilink genus articles for Dusisiren and Hydrodamalis in text?

Those are already wikilinked in the Description section   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Range: "One study in 2004 reported sea cow bones discovered in Adak Island and Buldir Island" => "on Adak Island and Buldir Island"

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Range: "This population may have also interacted with humans" strikes me a needlessly hedged. The cited article makes no bones about the suspected 'interaction', which was hunting to extinction. So maybe "This population may have also have been hunted to extinction by humans"?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Extinction: Just checking - did Steller himself suggest that flooding might be a cause of mortality, or is that a later interpretation based on his report? The reference to the original report suggests the former, but I can't check (my net access is coming through a pinhole today).

he said in his journal that there was flooding and went on to explain   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

• Potrayals in media: The double cite of the Kipling story to two separate editions of The Jungle Book seems a little odd, as text should be identical in both editions (Kipling gave none of these stories an overhaul for subsequent imprints).

one is the actual copy of the story, the second one is to verify that he is talking about a Steller's sea cow (because in the first one it just says "Sea Cow")   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:17, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Great article, looking forward to its front page appearance :) --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 09:33, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• "with crater-like bores most likely from ectoparasites". I do not think this is a correct use of "bore", which means a hole drilled in manufacturing. Maybe "depression"?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

• The lead says that Steller's sea cow fed solely on kelp, but the main text that it was probably its main food soruce.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

• " It only ate the soft parts of the kelp, and consumed the tougher stem and holdfast when they washed up on shore in heaps." This is contradictory - it did and did not consume the tougher parts?

changed to "attacked"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

• "It may have also fed on seagrass, but this did not occur in sufficient quantities to support a viable population, and so could not have been the main food source. Also, the available seagrasses in their range, Phyllospadix spp. and Zostera marina, were probably too tough or occurred too deep for Steller's sea cow to consume." This also seems contradictory - it may have fed on seagrass, but the evidence suggests that this was not possible. I would delete.

a lot of sources list seagrasses as an albeit small food source (the ones the talk about food anyways)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

• "Based on the larger average size of Pleistocene specimens from the Aleutian Islands," This is a bit confusing as it is the first mention of the former Aleutian population. Perhaps "Fossils have been found of an Aleutian Islands population during the Pleistocene, and they are larger on average than the Commander Island sea cows,"

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

• More to follow, but from what I have read so far I am inclined to oppose. The article cites a translation of Steller's original paper, even though the translator expresses doubt about its accuracy and it is an original source which is probably only accepted in part by modern researchers. An example is the statement that sea cows were monogamous. It is unclear how Steller could have known, and a statement that they were apparently monogamous in the main text becomes definite without the "apparently" in the lead. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

according to Steller, they lived in family groups (multiple sources concur that's what he said), with one male, one female, and their offspring; and basically everything known about Steller's sea cow behaviour comes from Beasts of the Sea   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Closing comment: This has been open for nearly two months now, and we have had a lot of commentary but we have two fresh leaning opposes, plus a remaining earlier oppose. Despite the support this article has received, I don't think we have a consensus that this meets the FA criteria, and the opposes are certainly valid ones. Therefore, I am archiving this nomination as I don't think we are close enough to promotion after a long time at FAC. This can be renominated after the usual two week wait, but I would suggest working on this away from FAC in that time with those who have made suggestions, and bring it back when the work has been done. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:35, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:35, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Second FA review

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Sarastro1 via FACBot (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2017 [9].

---

Steller's sea cow

Nominator(s):   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:37, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

I nominated this article a couple months back. It failed, but Jens Lallensack has been working on it (but I don't think he's co-nominating it) and now I'm sure that it's ready for FAC. It was really close last time, there just wasn't really enough time, so I'm hoping that I can resolve all the problems left. Also, this article's about a species of dugong that went extinct in recent times. Thanks,   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:37, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

• Support - the article has obviously been improved since last time I gave my review and support (feels more comprehensive now), so here it is again. FunkMonk (talk) 08:22, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments by Sabine's Sunbird

Okay then:

• In the lead, maybe mention that the range was or may have been wider in pre-history

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• In the lead, information about its size is split over two paragraphs. Consolidate perhaps?

I just removed it in the second paragraph because it was basically repeating info   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• the slow-moving and easily capturable Steller's sea cow maybe easily caught is plainer English?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• The sea cow's spine is believed to have had 7 neck, 17 thoracic, 3 lumbar, and 34 caudal (tail) vertebrae. I'm curious why this is only believed.

the source said "axial skeleton probably consisted of"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• consuming the tougher stem and holdfast after they washed up on the shore in heaps. I'm curious about this, did they nearly beach themselves to reach it?

Oops, fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• Steller researched the wildlife of Bering Island while he was shipwrecked there; it would be good to know how long he was marooned there.

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• There are two taxonomic trees labeled Relations within Sirenia that show different things. Maybe the second one which excludes the manatees should be relabeled.

to what?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

The cladogram only shows relationships within Dugongidae, so probably that. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:52, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• an extinct tropical sea cow that lived near California What does near California mean here? Off California? Oregon? Mexico?

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• I unlinked duplicated ice ages link, perhaps since there are multiple ice ages and you are referring the most recent one based on the piped link you could a) use the more technical name too or b) put a date range in there? Also ice age probably shouldn't be capped (technically neither should Dugong but it'll be a cold day in hell when I require that to pass)

fixed the dugong thing   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

These are minor issues so support should be simple enough once they're addressed. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:08, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• Okay, support now. I replied above to the issue of the cladograms, its a simple fix. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:52, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• Hi, I made these changes (rather than listing them here) as they're all pretty straightforward. tentative support as nothing is jumping out at me to fix....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:57, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Image review

• Why repeat the lead image?

it's relevant in both places   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• File:Pallas_Sea_Cow.jpg needs a US PD tag

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• What was the source of the data used to create File:Commander_Islands_Map_-_Russian.png?

I asked at the Commons and they said that contours of land masses (like the one pictured) are not protected by copyright so it doesn't need a source line   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:57, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not asking about the source for copyright reasons, but for verifiability - think about this request as a {{citation needed}} tag on the image. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:07, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

added citation needed tag   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

• File:Steller_measuring_a_sea_cow.jpg: if this is dated 1925, it can't have been published before 1923 - tag needs reviewing

Added US non-renewal instead. FunkMonk (talk) 17:14, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• File:Extanstellersseacowea.jpg needs a US PD tag

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• File:Ледяной_плен_с._097.png: where was this first published and what is the author's date of death?

Russian Academy of Sciences, 1879   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• File:Waxell_-_Stellersche_Seekuh.jpg needs a US PD tag and the source link is dead

added PD tag but I can't find another link, should I just remove it and leave the ref for it?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Have you checked archive.org? Nikkimaria (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

yes, I'll try asking the Village Pump at the Commons   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:50, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

They found it, fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  22:33, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• File:Hydrodamalis_gigas.jpeg needs a US PD tag

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• File:T2JB367_-_illustration.jpg needs a US PD tag and an author date of death. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:32, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

where do I put the author's date of death?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:11, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

With the author. Nikkimaria (talk) 10:42, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:50, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

If this was published in 1895, why use a 1923–1963 tag? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:07, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Oops, fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  00:47, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: anything else?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  19:47, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: anything else?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments by William Harris

In the section titled "Ecology and behavior", there are some dead hyperlinks (red) that would benefit from being unlinked. Regards, William Harris • (talk) • 12:19, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:21, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks D. (I report that nothing exciting has been turned up through DNA analysis of the remains of this extinct mammal, including one conducted this year.) Regards, William Harris • (talk) • 22:19, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Source review from Ealdgyth

• Current ref 1 has a major red flag "Überarb, Germany: Books on Demand". What makes this reliable?

The book seems pretty well-sourced to me, I don't see what the publisher's got to do with it. It cites only journals as far as I can see so I'd call it reliable   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, "books on demand" is usually a self-publishing service. We consider self-published sources to be problematical, and often unreliable. See Wikipedia:RSSELF. See books on demand site, World Cat entry showing no libraries holding the book, and Other world cat entry showing one library in the whole world holding it. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:53, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm basically citing an encyclopedia rather than combing through all the German article sources he lists or American university publications. Basically, instead of trying to create 50 different sources of which most are inaccessible, I just bulk-cited one that's accessible and easy-to-read. I could try finding individual sources in the bibliography if you want   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  19:26, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Unless the guy writing it is an expert in the field (and given the lack of libraries holding the book even if he was, it's pretty clear that this work isn't one that scholars are using) I'm going to have to say it's unreliable. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:31, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Alright, I'll replace it (but later, this might take a little bit)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  19:57, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

Found the sources he used, done (and I moved the rothauscher link to the External links section)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:28, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Just to be clear rothauscher isn't used as a ref anymore   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:18, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

• Current ref 28 (Britannica.com) is this really needed? There are three other sources on the information it's attached to.

removed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

• Portrayals in media section - why were these specific protrayals chosen out of other mentions? Per MOS:POPCULT, we need to be careful with these sorts of sections. I've always found a good rule of thumb is to only list those pop culture mentions where a third-party source discusses the impact that the portrayals have on our understanding of the article subject.

because that's all there is as far as I can tell (or at least the only ones that don't just take a small glance at them)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:45, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

But what do they tell us about the subject of the article? What commentary in third-party sources discuss how these poems/etc help our understanding of the article subject? Near as I can see, they are just trivial mentions without any coverage in sources to show how the sea cow information is informative. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:53, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

I think a short film about them that got nominated for awards is definitely notable, as well as being discussed by W. G. Sebald   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  19:26, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

• I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. [ Earwig's tool https://tools.wmflabs.org/copyvios/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&title=Steller%27s+sea+cow&oldid=&action=search&use_engine=1&use_links=1&turnitin=0] shows no copyright violations.

Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:20, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: anything else?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  17:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: hello?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  04:21, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: bonjour? Is silence support or waiting for changes?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:18, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't support just for a source review - I will oppose if the sources aren't reliable, but otherwise it's just a check that the sources are reliable. Much the same as an image review. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:45, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

One comment: The lead image should be of the skeleton, since it is a physical remain of the creature. This is the case for other extinct animal articles. The only better alternative would be the live animal itself (eg quagga). LittleJerry (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:14, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Hmm, may look better if you just use the one from the description section (and remove it from there), looks repetitive now, and the one in the taxobox is not as good. Drawings from life of actual specimens can be good for the taxobox sometimes, but in this case, it looked a bit weird that it was used two times.FunkMonk (talk) 19:58, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: As Dudley Miles raised a few concerns last time, I'd like to check if there is anything further they would like to add here? Additionally, I just noticed that the nominator's first FA never had the usual spot check for accurate use of sources and avoidance of close paraphrasing. As this article's first FAC only had a partial spot-check, I'd appreciate it if someone could do another. This can be requested at the top of WT:FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:21, 5 July 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Josh Milburn

I glanced at the article when it was first nominated and it now looks much better. I wouldn't call myself a sentimental person, but I have a real soft spot for these animals and I am saddened by their story. As such, I'm thrilled to see such a well-developed article, and I commend you for your work and tenaciousness in bringing this here a second time.

• "however this may have been more expansive during the Pleistocene epoch" It's not clear what the this refers to.

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "During the Holocene epoch it was among the largest mammals, reaching weights of 8–10 metric tons (8.8–11.0 short tons) and lengths of up to 9 metres (30 ft)." The tenses are odd, here. How about something like "Steller's sea cow would reach weights..., making it one of the largest mammals of the Holocene." Is the mention of the Holocene even necessary? I fear it will turn off some readers.

removed the Holocene part   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "Steller's sea cow had a thicker layer of blubber than other members of the order." Orders are yet to be mentioned

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "Its skin was brownish-black in color, with white patches on some individuals. Its skin" Repetition

fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "As in all sirenians, the scapula of Steller's sea cow was fan-shaped-- larger on the posterior side and narrower towards the neck." Is that double dash in accordance with MOS:DASH?

I just replaced it with "being"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• Is Laminaria saccharina the currently accepted name? It redirects to a different page.

it's a synonym   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "Fossils of Pleistocene Aleutian Island sea cow populations were larger than those from the Commander Islands," The fossils were larger? I assume you mean that the fossils indicate that the animals were larger.

no, the bones they found were larger (which would mean that they themselves were larger)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "Zoologist Eberhard von Zimmermann described the sea cow's specific name as gigas in 1780, and placed it in the genus Manati" Is this the first formal species description? If so, how about something like "Zoologist Eberhard von Zimmermann formally described Stellar's sea cow in 1780 as Manati gigas."?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "(shown below)" should probably be removed, per WP:SELF.

removed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "a member of Vitus Bering's as a painter and surveyor" This needs attention!

I forgot the word "crew"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• I'm struggling with something, and the description section (and various pictures) have left me unclear: if the sea cow was upright, were its tail "fins" vertical (like a shark) or horizontal (like a whale)?

horizontal like a whale, but everyone drew it vertically (I assume) to emphasize the shape of the tail. One of the illustrations has it horizontal in perspective (which is noted)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "Bone fragments and accounts by native Aleut people suggest that sea cows also historically inhabited the Near Islands,[33] potentially with viable populations that were in contact with humans in the western Aleutian Islands prior to Steller's discovery in 1741." I think this throws doubt on the first sentence of the lead. I wonder if the fact that Aleut people may have had contact with Stellar's sea cow could be added to the lead?

added   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "A 2004 study reported that sea cow bones discovered on Adak and Buldir Islands were found to be around 1,700 and 1,600 years old respectively." Too much hedging; could this be simplified?

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "The presence of Steller's sea cows in the Aleutian Islands may have caused the Aleut people to migrate westward to hunt them, possibly leading to the sea cow's extinction in that area, assuming the animals survived in that region into the Holocene epoch.[9]" This is interesting; what is the evidence that Aleut people hunted the animal? I'd like to hear more. Frankly, if we have any information, I'd support a whole subsection discussing the Aleut/sea cow relationship.

should that be a subsection of extinction or should there be a section with interactions with Europeans and another section with interactions with indigenous?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

I split it into Interactions with Europeans, Interactions with aboriginals, and Other   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:21, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

there's no archaeological evidence but it's speculated   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "It has also been argued that the decline of Steller's sea cow may have been an indirect effect of the harvesting of sea otters by the aboriginal peoples." What aboriginal people? Where? (If you're talking about pre-Steller interactions, this could go in the section I proposed above.)

indigenous peoples of the arctic

• "Another event potentially leading to extinction of Steller's sea cow, specifically off the coast of St. Lawrence Island, was the onset of the Medieval Warm Period which reduced the availability of kelp. However, the Siberian Yupik people who have inhabited St. Lawrence island for 2,000 years may have simply hunted the sea cows into extinction, as the natives have a dietary culture heavily dependent upon marine mammals.[29]" And this. I feel this section is a little bit all over the place.
• "the sale of unfossilized bones is generally prohibited" How/why? I don't follow.

unfossilized bone and other marine mammal products are protected by the marine mammal protection act   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• "In Alaska, however, native artisan products made from these bones are legal to sell in the United States. As some the material is not actually from Steller's sea cows, the trade is regulated.[43]" This doesn't read well, and seems oddly specific.

The one exception to the rule is native artisan products, which seems notable   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  01:33, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

I reordered the sentences, and did a bunch of copy editing in this section to remove redundant sentences. Still might need a bit of work but it is much better now. — InsertCleverPhraseHere 04:38, 10 July 2017 (UTC)

This is still a tiny bit patchy for me, but it's clear that some great work has gone into it. Josh Milburn (talk) 19:02, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

For me, the current European/aboriginal split doesn't quite work; you could change it to something like "Pre-European contact" and "19th century". Changing the title of the section to "Interactions with humans and extinction" would also make sense, given as some of the discussion isn't really about humans at all. So I'd go for something like:

-Interactions with humans and extinction
--Pre-European contact
--18th century
--Later reported sightings
--Commercial value
--Portrayals in media [Or: Portrayals in fiction]

The information is good, it's just a matter of working out how to present it. Josh Milburn (talk) 00:49, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Are you sure? I thought the European/aboriginal split worked nicely   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:32, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

It's not my place to force any changes, but I'm struggling to understand why you have placed the European material before the aboriginal material (and are all these people Europeans?), and it seems odd to group discussions of global climate with discussions of sea cow/aboriginal contact. (Also, if you have a source, it'd be great if you could open the aboriginal discussion by noting that information about contact with sea cows prior to Stellar's "discovery" is patchy.) Josh Milburn (talk) 12:01, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

The aboriginals section is basically all speculation, but the European section is not really speculation at all, so it has more weight in my opinion. The global warming point just seemed relevant when discussing the St. Lawrence extirpation. I fixed the opening of the section   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  23:25, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• "discovered in 1741". This is Eurocentric. Perhaps "first encountered by Europeans in 1741".

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• "their range may have been more expansive during the Pleistocene epoch". This is over-cautious. According to the text below, Pleistocene fossils have been discovered in several areas.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• "It is possible that Steller's sea cow and humans interacted before their discovery on the Commander Islands. This is also over-cautious. It seems clear below that there was interaction, and that the sea cow may already have been on the way to extinction from aboriginal hunting when Europeans arrived.

not really, it's sort of speculation (that's why it later says "...there is no archaeological evidence")   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• "and raising its young" Is this needed? Presumably all mammals raise their young.

mammals can be r-selectors   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• "The tongue was only 30 centimetres (12 in) in length and remained in the back of the mouth, unable to reach the masticatory (chewing) pads." This suggests that the tongue was a vestigial organ, and appears to rely on the Miller translation of Steller's work, as I could not find it in the other works cited. I raised this in the previous FAC. Steller was clearly not reliable with figures as he gave alternative figures of 4 and 24.3 metric tons as the sea cow's weight. In addition, the translators comment that Steller's work contains errors as it was published after his death and consequently not revised. The translation was based on a type written copy of the original Latin, as the original was not then available, although it is now online. As there are many modern sources which can assess Steller's findings in relation to the 27 skeletons discovered and what is known about other syrenians, I do not think this should be regarded as an RS and should not be used as a source.

Are you sure? This is literally the only source anyone can really use to talk about behaviour and description beyond what can be seen from bones. Everyone who talks about Steller's sea cow cites this book. I'll take it down if you insist but I think you should reconsider   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:15, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

Certainly everyone who talks about Steller's sea cow is bound to cite his book, but modern experts will select the points they accept. Forsten and Youngman cover behaviour, and you could have cited them for much of what you say. What they leave out such as the tongue they may not consider reliable. What points do you consider important and reliable which you cannot cite to a secondary source? Dudley Miles (talk) 17:22, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  21:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC)

• More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:25, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
• "gone extinct due to the onset of the Ice Ages". "Ice Ages" is vague. I think Quaternary or Pleistocene glaciation would be better.

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• "Many lineages died out". Lineages of what? You have only mentioned one species.

changed to "populations"

• "The Pallas Picture is the only known drawing of Steller's sea cow believed to be from an actual specimen." This is worded as if you have already mentioned the Pallas Picture. I suggest "A drawing of Steller's sea cow by Peter Simon Pallas is belived to be the only illustration based on an actual specimen."

well that's just the opening sentence, the rest of the paragraph delves into its origins. It just starts out with why it's important (I can still change it if you want me to)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• "The Commander Islands remained uninhabited until 1825 the Russian-American Company relocated Aleuts from Attu Island and Atka Island there." The grammar has gone wrong.

I forgot the "when," fixed   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• "However, the Siberian Yupik people who have inhabited St. Lawrence island for 2,000 years may have simply hunted the sea cows into extinction, as the natives have a dietary culture heavily dependent upon marine mammals." This is unreferenced. I see it is in the paper on the local extinction off St Lawrence Island, and is an alternative explanation to the decline of kelp in the medieval warm period, which you discuss in the next paragraph. I suggest you make clear that they are alternative explanations, and merge the two paragraphs. This would mean merging the 'Interactions with aboriginals' and 'Other' sub-sections.

@J Milburn: I literally just separated the Extinction section into those three sections because J told me to, and i think that it's much better because there are many factors as to why the sea cow went extinct (and basically all of it's speculation outside of sea otters and Europeans as far as I can tell)   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Hunting and the medieval warm period are alternative explanations in a paper on the extinction of the St Lawrence population. Separating them is misleading. Also the first part is unreferenced, and the second suggests the warm period may have led to a wider extinction, which is not in the source, and is very unlikely as the sea cows had survived many earlier even warmer periods. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• The flooding paragraph is speculation based on your interpretation of an original source. Steller did not suggest that deaths from flooding were significant enough to affect the population. The paragraph should be deleted.

Well it was one way they did die, and he did say that it wasn't that many. I made it more clear that it wasn't a major factor   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• Steller was in Kamchatka immediately after the 1737 tsunami, the largest and earliest ever recorded in the area. His speculation that it was a regular event and that these shaped the mountains are valueless, and illustrate the dangers of amateurs such as ourselves using original sources. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

okay fine it's been deleted   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  19:33, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• The 'Other' sub-section is a ragbag. The first paragraph belongs with the one before, the second is POV speculation, the third is not 'other' at all but a summary of the situation when Steller arrived. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

That section's been deleted 15:43, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

• "collection died down after 1900". "died down" sounds a bit odd to me. How about "declined".

done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• I would leave out the 'Portrayals in media' section as none of the items seem notable, but other editors may disagree.

Well a mention by Kipling and W. G. Sebald seemed notable to me   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  16:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

• This article is greatly improved since the previous nomination and looks close to FA. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:01, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support. Looks fine now, although I do not think the 'Interaction with humans' heading is helpful, and suggest deleting it and making sub-sections 5.1. to 5.4 into main sections. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:35, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Closing comment: Scanning through, I notice that some references are not in ascending numerical order. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, so I haven't changed anything but it is worth checking; most, but not all, articles place references in order but it is not a FA requirement. Finally, although there has been no formal source review, I think Dudley Miles's review is comprehensive enough, and covers the sourcing enough, to make this unnecessary now. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

quote parameter

I see this article is undergoing a FA review. Definitely an article worth having as featured. One thing I notice is completely unused in this article is any usage of the |quote= parameter in the cite templates. In an article with 50 references that seems pretty shabby. Quote is useful when the article's text is directly supported by a small amount of text in the source. It is extremely valuable to have this. Some of the benefits are: A) helps confirm the article's text is actually supported by the source, B) every editor can quickly and easily verify there is no plagiarism of the source, C) aids re-finding the source using search engines when url's break, D) helps editors detect when references become detached and reattached to unrelated sentences during the course of time. So while everybody is reviewing this article, please take some time to consider adding such quotes. Jason Quinn (talk) 20:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I added the quote parameter to some non-repeating refs   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  05:03, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

I don't think this is an actual FA requirement, but I see it's done already, so it's fine. FunkMonk (talk) 10:54, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

It's not a FA requirement but your comment reads as if you would discourage it. Why? Jason Quinn (talk) 17:44, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

I wouldn't discourage it, but I wouldn't call articles that lack them "shabby". That would make the vast majority of featured articles "shabby". FunkMonk (talk) 18:22, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

When it comes to referencing, I think articles, even featured ones, are often shabby. I state this is probably one of Wikipedia's most experienced editors that focuses on improving referencing. Among numerous problems, references are often too vague to easily verify and are very often taken to mean more than they say. As for featured article review, as if to underscore my point, the FA folk don't even bother to fix CS1 errors, probably because they don't even have the preference turned on to see them, which I think is a sin. These errors often indicate easily fixed problems with the references. (The very existence of a preference setting to see these errors is a sin, they should be visible by default.) We shouldn't be calling the FAs our "best" if they are littered with errors. How can we improve? Well, fix CS1 errors. And, in this day and age, we should be putting strong emphasis on page numbers and quotes. As I explained above, they are enormously valuable. And it's just too easy for the statements in articles to evolve to the point that it is no longer supported by the source. Without quotes, nobody notices. I'm really impressed with User:Dunkleosteus77's edit that added quotes. So few editors expend this extra effort. Jason Quinn (talk) 19:24, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

There is one major problem with quoting every single ref: WP:fair use. I think it is debatable whether hosting such an amount of mostly copyrighted text on WIkipedia is advisable. But that is a discussion for a broader forum, not an individual article. FunkMonk (talk) 21:46, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

So long as we give credit to the original source and treat it as a direct quote instead of original text, then it'd be okay   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:32, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Could you explain more how you think this would violate fair use? Are you referring to the line "Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited" in Wikipedia:Non-free content#Text? That line is saying that a single source should not be over-quoted. That is something we shouldn't be doing anyway within a single article. A work has no limit on the number of sources that can be used yet still be fair use. If you are referring to the total number of quotes from a single source across all of Wikipedia (rather than just a single article), I still don't think that would violate fair use. The vast majority of sources except for encyclopedias and reference books wouldn't have such wide scope for this to even need to be considered. Jason Quinn (talk) 08:22, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I am referring to the amount of copyrigthed text used. When it comes to images and audio, we are told to keep it at a minimum. I can't see why this wouldn't apply to text as well. See this related discussion:[10] If we quote every single ref, it will be a considerable percentage of the arricle, surpassing what we are allowed to use form any other media. Anyhow, this seems to boil down to personal opinion; I have yet to see a guideline/policy that states every ref should feature a quote, and that is really all that matters on Wikipedia. FunkMonk (talk) 11:55, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

I am highly confident this is not a copyright concern and your interpretation of US copyright is flawed here. It appears that from the fact that we cannot use a high percent of a single work (like an image or audio recording) you have falsely extrapolated that an article cannot include too much copyrighted text even if that text comes from desperate sources. It is possible to build a work completely out of verbatim sentences from other works that still falls under Fair Use in the US so long as none of the sentences were a substantial part of any of the quoted works. Now that you have me thinking about this, however, I'm not sure the quote parameter is compatible with our text licenses like CC BY-SA. Jason Quinn (talk) 17:10, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Nothing is "falsely extrapolated", we just have different interpretations, because the guidelines are too vague. But the bottomline is, yes, fine if you put the quotes in, but it is not an FA criterion, so it can't be demanded. FunkMonk (talk) 08:01, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Today's Featured Article

Steller's sea cow

This is the archived discussion of the TFAR nomination for the article below. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as Wikipedia talk:Today's featured article/requests). Please do not modify this page.

The result was: scheduled for Wikipedia:Today's featured article/September 2, 2017 by Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:35, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Steller's sea cow (Hydrodamalis gigas) is an extinct species of sirenian first discovered by Europeans in 1741. At the time of its discovery, the sea cow was found only around the Commander Islands, located in the Bering Sea. Steller's sea cow would reach weights of 8–10 metric tons (8.8–11.0 short tons) and lengths of up to 9 metres (30 ft). Steller's sea cow had a thicker layer of blubber than other members of the order due to the cold waters of its environment. The sea cow had two keratinous plates for chewing instead of teeth. Steller's sea cow fed mainly on kelp, and communicated via sighs and snorting sounds. It was monogamous, lived in small family groups, and raised its young. The sea cow was named for Georg Wilhelm Steller, a naturalist who discovered the species in 1741 after he was shipwrecked on Bering Island. His observations were documented in his posthumous publication The Beasts of the Sea. Within 27 years of discovery by Europeans, Steller's sea cow was hunted into extinction for its meat, fat, and hide. (Full article...)

• Most recent similar article(s): Teleost, August 2
• Main editors:   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 
• Promoted: 25 July 2017
• Reasons for nomination: Any date's fine
• Support as nominator.   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  05:16, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

• Support - I don't think we've ever had an extinct marine mammal as TFA before. FunkMonk (talk) 15:49, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support: per funkmonk really Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:55, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support - Wow, would be great to have it as a TFA. Adityavagarwal (talk) 06:05, 7 August 2017 (UTC)
• Support per above commentary. Aoba47 (talk) 15:31, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Steller's sea cow. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20161020122625/http://www.science.smith.edu/msi/pdf/i0076-3519-165-01-0001.pdf to http://www.science.smith.edu/msi/pdf/i0076-3519-165-01-0001.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Y An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:34, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Fringe Sources: Eberhart and Ley

I've just removed two instances of material cited to George M. Eberhart's Mysterious Creatures: A Guide to Cryptozoology. As its name implies, this is a work promoting the fringe subculture of cryptozoology, which is closely associated Young Earth creationism and ufology.

Additionally, this article currently contains several instances of material cited to Willy Ley, another cryptozoologist. The item cited to Ley is an article from a science fiction magazine ([11]). Is this appropriate for the article? It looks to be another example of WP:FRINGE to me. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:38, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Wait a minute, just because some creationists exploit cryptozoological ideas doesn't mean that cryptozoology inherently has anything to do with creationism, and the founders of the field (such as Bernard Heuvelmans) have nothing to do with creationism. So that suggestion should be completely disregarded. As for how reliable the authors are, no idea, but there is no precedent for excluding books about cryptozoology as sources; how do you suggest we should write an article about the Loch Ness monster? FunkMonk (talk) 23:47, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

It is well documented that the modern subculture is closely associated with Young Earth creationism. See our own article on the topic: Cryptozoology#Young_Earth_creationism. Add to that ufology and ghost hunting, as discussed in our cryptozoology article.

Additionally, while beside the point, it's also well documented that Heuvelmans, while himself not a clear advocate of Young Earth creationism, often exhibited strongly anti-academic streaks, thus yielding the pseudoscience in the first place. Throughout its history, the subculture has been in unquestionably in deep WP:FRINGE territory, as is well documented in books like Donald Prothero and Daniel Loxton's Abominable Science, and noted by numerous other academics over the years (Cryptozoology#Reception_and_pseudoscience).

The Loch Ness Monster is a creature from folklore, and we turn to folklorists for this topic. It's the same with geology and Flat Earth proponents. Flate earthers aren't reliable sources, but geologists are. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:53, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Creationists misuse palaeontological concepts and fossils as well, by your logic, we should dismiss the field of palaeontology, which is of course nonsense. As for the rest, you'd have to start a much wider discussion on some centralised page to get consensus for your personal view that books about cryptozoology (who says the book in question condones all the cases it lists?) can't be used as sources on Wikipedia before you can start removing info left and right. A random talk page doesn't cut it, and you need support for this before, not after, removing info. As for the Loch Ness monster, it is as much "folklore" as bigfoot (it has recently been established it has little to no history prior to 1933, and was heavily influenced by a scene in the film King Kong, and has since been retroactively connected with some myths of creatures that didn't even live in Loch Ness), and is mainly discussed in cryptozoological sources. FunkMonk (talk) 00:05, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Paleontology is an academic field. Cryptozoology is not—no accredited schools offer courses on the topic nor do they grant degrees. It is a small subculture and a pseudoscience, as our article on the topic makes quite clear. This comparison does not hold water. Cryptozoology's status as fringe subculture is not controversial.

While it's beside the point, it's worth clearing up: Bigfoot is also an example of modern folklore, specifically American folklore. Considering that numerous folklore genres like jokes, recipes, or legends still occur in everyday life, folklore does not imply 'old'. There's a lot of discussion from folklorists on the topic of Bigfoot (you might start with respective Bigfoot entries in Encyclopedia of American Folklore or American Folklore: An Encyclopedia), and no need to turn to fringe sources. :bloodofox: (talk) 00:11, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Once again, Bloodofox, I think this is a narrow view that ties investigation of cryptic animals with fairy stories and unverifiable conjecture, akin to current trends for flat earth LARPers or the reports of people suffering a type of temporal lobe epilepsy. I am more concerned with animals being made cryptic by language, disguising diversity, but am allergic to pseudo-sceptical positions obliterating verifiable conjecture, in this case, our efforts to obliterate the species may have been unsuccessful. cygnis insignis 04:36, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

We don't make exceptions to our WP:RS and WP:FRINGE guidelines for the sake of including sightings that haven't been reported in mainstream sources. I'm not sure what "verifiable conjecture" means, but it doesn't sound like something that belongs in an encyclopedia article. –dlthewave ☎ 05:37, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• I agree that Eberhart is not a reliable source, and Ley should be removed as well. We've discussed before why reliable secondary sources about cryptozoology (such as Loxton & Prothero) may be used, but works by cryptozoologists and their promoters are unacceptable fringe sources.

Where have "we" discussed anything? Again, unless you demonstrate there is some sort of consensus for ignoring such books, you cna't go around removing text left and right. We need a wider discussion on the issue. FunkMonk (talk) 14:26, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

New paper

the full nuclear genome of Steller's Sea Cow has been sequenced. Probably worth incorporating into the article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

 Done   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  07:05, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

The article remains contradictory to the paper. While this article states that there is "no archaeological evidence" for the hunting of Steller's sea cow in the Aleutian Islands, the supplementary information for the paper (supplementary table 8) notes 4 archeological sites in the Aleutian Islands containing Steller's sea cow material. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the paper means by archeological since all the red sites are mentioned in the Range section as subfossil remains   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:12, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Among the article that the supplementary info cites Dynamics of sea mammal and bird populations of the Bering Sea region over the last several millennia notes finding a worked piece of Steller's sea cow rib, while Steller's sea cow in the Aleutian Islands notes finding a rib fragment that likely originated from a midden that pre-dates Russian contact, with the article concluding based on account of hunting at Attu Island "make it likely that sea cows were still known and hunted in at least the western Aleutian Islands into the 18th century." The evidence is circumstantial, but it seems compelling based on the literature. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:42, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Go ahead and add what you like, you don't need my permission   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  18:57, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Author citation for synonyms

This is a FA so I just wanted to talk about this here before editing, but the author citations for a lot of the synonyms are incorrect per the ICZN Code: 50.3.2. Change in generic combination of a species-group name does not affect its authorship, If it is desired to cite both the author of a species-group nominal taxon and the person who first transferred it to another genus, the name of the person forming the new combination should follow the parentheses that enclose the name of the author of the species-group name (and the date, if cited[...]). It should be something like

List of synonyms (with new combination authorities)

• • Hydrodamalis
    • H. stelleri Retzius, 1794
  • Rytina
    • R. manatus borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Illiger, 1811
    • R. borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Illiger, 1815
    • R. cetacea Illiger, 1815
    • R. stelleri (Retzius, 1794) Desmarest, 1819
    • R. borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Cuvier, 1836
    • R. stelleri (Retzius, 1794) Burmeister, 1837
    • R. gigas (Zimmermann, 1780) Gray, 1850
  • Manati
    • M. gigas Zimmermann, 1780
    • M. balaenurus Boddaert, 1785
    • M. borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Link, 1795
  • Trichechus
    • T. manatus borealis Gmelin, 1788
    • T. borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Shaw, 1800
  • Sirene
    • S. borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Link, 1794
  • Nepus
    • N. stelleri (Retzius, 1794) Fischer von Waldheim, 1814
  • Stellerus
    • S. borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Desmarest, 1822
  • Haligyna
    • H. borealis (Gmelin, 1788) Billberg, 1827
  • Manatus
    • M. gigas (Zimmermann, 1780) Lucas, 1891

or, as is more typically seen in zoology:

List of synonyms (with just author citation)

• • Hydrodamalis
    • H. stelleri Retzius, 1794
  • Rytina
    • R. manatus borealis (Gmelin, 1788)
    • R. borealis (Gmelin, 1788)
    • R. cetacea Illiger, 1815
    • R. stelleri (Retzius, 1794)
    • R. borealis (Gmelin, 1788)
    • R. stelleri (Retzius, 1794)
    • R. gigas (Zimmermann, 1780)
  • Manati
    • M. gigas Zimmermann, 1780
    • M. balaenurus Boddaert, 1785
    • M. borealis (Gmelin, 1788)
  • Trichechus
    • T. manatus borealis Gmelin, 1788
    • T. borealis Gmelin, 1788
  • Sirene
    • S. borealis (Gmelin, 1788)
  • Nepus
    • N. stelleri (Retzius, 1794)
  • Stellerus
    • S. borealis (Gmelin, 1788)
  • Haligyna
    • H. borealis (Gmelin, 1788)
  • Manatus
    • M. gigas (Zimmermann, 1780)

The only one I'm unsure about is how to denote Shaw raising the status of Gmelin's Trichechus manatus boreali to species-rank within the same genus; typically the authority would be Gmelin, 1788 for both, without parentheses. The ICZN only talks about the option of citing whoever transferred a species to another genus as far as I can tell. The authorship of the name of a nominal taxon within the family group, genus group or species group is not affected by the rank at which it is used.

In any event, it's incorrect to say the authority of, say, Manatus gigas is Lucas, 1891.

The author citation for Hydrodamalis gigas in the infobox should be (Zimmermann, 1780); I'll make this change as I can't see that being objected to.

Also, if we're including other synonyms Domning (1996) doi:10.5479/si.00810266.80.1 includes:

• Manatus balaenurus (Boddaert, 1785) Bechstein, 1800

Also also why is Rytina borealis listed twice? It should just be (Gmelin, 1788) Illiger, 1815, no? Umimmak (talk) 22:55, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

In media and folklore, relevance of literary works

On what basis is the Finnish novel Elolliset not deemed relevant? The language area is small, but the book deals specifically with the animal and translation rights are sold in multiple languages. Based on available information it is not immediately more obscure than the poetry volume Species evanescens by Bronnikov, which remains untranslated. Gösspöket (talk) 11:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)