Talk:Somali people/Archive 1

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General comments

While Banadirs and Bantus are Somalians, they are not Somali, which is the subject of this article. Thus I've removed the information. I'm also wondering about the info currently presented in the "Genetic evidence" section; see my comments at Talk:Horn of Africa. I'm also not sure about Waaq being a "cow god" (or perhaps this Waaq is different from the deity traditionally worshipped by the Oromo). And as the article could use more attention I've added the {{attention}} template. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 21:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I should edit my picture I put up? I have a Bantu Somali man on it and the two boys are Banadirs. But the Benadir have been in Somalia for centuries and at times, you can't tell the difference between them and of a normal somali. The Bantu did come from southern Africa though... -- FAH1223 16:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Map image

The map is really out-of-date; see Image talk:Somali map.jpg for details. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:26, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I found a CIA map from 2002, Image:Somalia ethnic grps 2002.jpg. I have replaced the older map in the article with this map. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

There is now at least one revision of this map, in which someone has taken the original public domain CIA map and made his or her own modifications. While I am not sure that the CIA map is correct, it is verifiable and is thus in keeping with Wikipedia policy. ("The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources.") One reason I had uploaded the 2002 CIA map in the first place is because I've been watching a number of Somali-related articles (about regions, cities, or clans) where one editor asserted "Clan X is the majority in this region" followed by another editor changing it to "Clan Y is the majority" etc. So when these types of edit battles occur, it is helpful to come back and point to this map as a verifiable source. One person's re-interpretation of this map doesn't help in these matters, and could potentially make things worse. Furthermore, the revised version of the CIA map is original research unless the uploader can cite the source(s) for his or her modifications. For these reasons I propose we use the 2002 CIA map in this article until a better verifiable map is found. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:43, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the info Taajir added is correct. If you google Awrtable for example you will find plenty of sites that say the Awrtable live around Burtinle, 70 km south of Gerowe. But we need a better map. But I know you are not allowed to alter an image/map. That's why people kept on deleting your map. You either include it as it is or you have to find a different map. Do any of the Somali websites have a better map? Or the UN, OAU, World Bank, Institute of Strategic Studies, charities, etc? Jameswilson 00:16, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Attempted replacement by user Eastafrica institute (talk · contribs)

File:Somaliethnic 2006.jpg

Compare the 2002 image to the map which was attempted to be added recently to the Somali people article. The national borders were off, and the terms Rahanweyn and Ishaak were entirely missing. I reverted the changes made to the page, but I wanted to leave a note here for watchers to be wary of other attempts to replace it. If it is being replaced, I believe someone should submit their proposed change for peer review, especially if it constitutes original research. I do not believe that this "2005" map is based on the CIA's work. --Petercorless 17:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Also look at the images listed at User talk:Sanaagian near the bottom. They were also all fakes similar to the above. 07:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Copyvios

I have removed some text from the article, as it strongly appeared to have been copied from the following sources (or from other copies thereof).

• http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/server.php?show=ConNarrative.109&chapterId=2309

The third and fourth paragraphs appeared nearly verbatim in the intoductory paragraph of this Wikipedia article.

• http://www.angelfire.com/bc/snrs/ethnic_profile.html

The fourth paragraph under the "Somali" section appeared verbatim as the "Culture" section in this Wikipedia article.

-- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:22, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction: Population in Somalia

Currently, the article states that Somalis make up seventy-five percent of the population of Somalia, yet at another point it says eighty-five percent. I believe a previous version of this article said ninety-seven percent. I'm not sure how this number could be calculated at all, seeing how there hasn't been a census in Somalia in years. But it would be nice to stick with one figure where this article is concerned. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Clans

Someone had added Issa to the list of Somali clans and I inadvertently removed it during a revert of some misinformation. Is this the same as Isaaq, which is already listed, or is the similarity in spelling a coincidence? At any rate Issa is a disambig page which points to this article (actually it pointed to the "Somali" disambig page until this article was created). -- Gyrofrog (talk) 07:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Issa (clan) are a clan, different from Isaaq. I created a stub for them. Gailtb 22:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

the issa are a somali clan who live in djibouti —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.80.150.125 (talk • contribs) 03:28, 25 July 2007

Religion

The article states that somalis were the first africans to convert to islam, "...long before north africans did...". Since both Egyptians and Berbers (Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco) had all converted within a century of the death of the Prophet Mohammed, It seems that the conversion of the Somali people was very early indeed, from a point of view of the history of the Islamic world. When did this conversion exactly happen? This should be stated in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.112.128.230 (talk • contribs) 04:08, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

This is incorrect whether or not Somalis converted before North Africans. The first convert was an Ethiopian (Habesha) living in modern-day Saudi Arabia; among the earliest converts were some Ethiopians who converted when Muhammad directed his few followers to stay in Ethiopia where they would not be prosecuted. Unless the Somalis converted before this point (which is very, very unlikely), they were not the first Africans to convert to Islam, though they were definitely early converts. Yom 06:43, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Ambiguity

" Unlike the neighboring Amhara who appear to have arrived at a later date to the region, the Somali people arrived are believed to have moved into the Zeila region by at least 750 CE and then expanded into all of what is today Somalia by displacing the Oromo."

This phrase is ambiguous. Is it refering to the Amhara presence in the Horn in general or Somalia in particular? If the latter, then it is unnecessary and should be removed. If the former, then it is in correct, as the Amhara are the descendants of the Agazyan and are thought to have begun to separate from Tigrignya speakers as early as the 400's AD (though ethnic denominations were solely based on linguistic differences). I am removing the first part of the sentence. Yom 06:46, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Is this needed?

"Education remains an important consideration for most Somalis, but, according to the CIA Factbook, only about 37.8% of the country is believed to be literate."

This isn't really needed...it is more of a SOMALIA problem, not one of Somalis...

While a problem in somalia, the literacy rate of somalis abroad (which is a large proportion) have much higher literacy rates...this is the country's problem...

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rotten777 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Genetics

I find that the genetics summary should be removed. Not only is it offensive to me, because I am part Somali-and to say that were are not black is pure BS. Then what the hell are we? Surely no damn European,Persian, or even middle-eastern. Somalis are black! Clean it up, or I will vote for this to be removed.

Cococanelle 15:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Nobody can lie about genetics, It is a fact? Keep your emotion away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jquu90 (talk • contribs) 21:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Someone just altered the entry on the genetics tonight. Anyone want to sort this out? --Petercorless 06:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The genetics section continues to mutate. I am watching but not interfering just yet. Anyone want to look more closely at it? There is at least one typo. --Petercorless 00:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The somalis are more caucasian than negroid(bantu) . The somalis have very black skin but their skull shape are like europaens and semetic people. Also their genetics are 15 % euroasian and only 5 % negroid( bantu), the rest 80 % are east african( cushitic) like the oromos and the ancient people of the Kush empire (not the nubians) and the ancient egyptians. To say that the somalis are negroid like the bantus and black americans because they have black skin ,are the same as to say that the chinese people are europaens because they have white skin.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.52.34.107 (talk • contribs) 15:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I must mention that 'race' is a social construction and therefore genetics have nothing to do with 'race'. The use of this word in the context of genetics is incorrect, from a scientific viewpoint. --rose —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.245.230.173 (talk) 00:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Indigenous

We are indigenous Africans who are related to other groups in the Horn of Africa and we are known as Elongated africans so I would appreciate it if that fact was kept in the article. RoboRanks [ 05:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC) ]

Somalis are not apart of the NEGROID race! It is a known fact. You probably aren't Somali and you want to start stuff! —Preceding unsigned comment added by user (talk • contribs) (UTC)

(cur) (last) 00:16, 25 November 2006 Sweetie1986 (Talk | contribs | block) (→Indiginous) (undo)

South Africa

It's very sad what's happening to my people in South africa but let's make one thing clear there is a difference between highlighting the fact that native rival shop keepers are hiring gangsters to attack Somali Entrepreneurs because of their success and trying to paint a picture of other africans simply attacking Somalis because of their different facial features that's a fallacy and the fact that native south africans have started patroll systems where they protect somali shop keepers and the giving of local names as protection is proof of that

so please keep this semi-racist nonsense about other africans targeting somalis based on their looks out of the article cause it's nonsense

RoboRanks [ 05:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC) ]

Continued Vandalisme and wrong use of words

the use of words like south african suffer from inferiority complex is quite sinister if you ask me and shouldn't be added in the page

the admin should do something about the complete deleting of new sections i've worked hard on

RoboRanks 01:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC) RoboRanks

Editor 68.40.41.202

[user 68.40.41.202 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)]

KEEP EDITING IT, I WON'T STOP UNTIL!!! YOU HAVE THIS DEEP ROOTED ISSUE. WE DON'T LIKE ADOONS LIKE YOU!

^^this is what he wrote in the article

it's quite clear that this person is not fit to edit the somali page

he uses it to dehumanize other groups instead of trying to inform the public about the somali people and he paints a bad image of my people

so something needs to be done about this vandalisme

RoboRanks 02:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)RoboRanks

Edit war

Whoa... this is quite the edit war. You both need to refrain from reverting immediately. RoboRanks, I can understand your frustration here. Can you please explain this dispute to me? shotwell 02:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I see that the edit war has been taken care of, but I'll try to research the topic to figure this all out. shotwell 03:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

my 2 cents

shotwell i want you to take a look at these 3 edits

Somalis also face various discriminations. In the West, there is a huge Islamaphobic attitude towards Muslims in general. Plus, Somalis also face discriminations from Bantu Africans for their business savvy skills and looking different an example of this is the violence against Somalis in South Africa.|[1]

There have been increasing violence against Somalis, in South Africa since July of 2006. A reported 300 Somalis have been killed, many in the Somali community believe this has to do with racism [11]. There have been also attacks on Somalis from African Americans in Minnesota high schools since the mid 90s. This has become evident to Somalis that it has to do with the fact that Somalis are not from the negroid race, and are different in appearance to the likes of black Africans and African-Americans

^^these were the edits of Sweetie1986 (talk · contribs) who also goes under various IP names

my take on these edits..

Racisme happens in every society( Including the Somali society) but in the case of South africa it's not racisme but rather economic reasons that fuelled the attacks on somali entrepreneurs,

the part about African Americans is irrelevant and the fact that these situations also happen to other african immigrants case in point Nigerians & Ghanians[2] refutes the ridicilous claims that the motives are looks

now my version

Somalis also face various discriminations. In the West, there is a huge Islamaphobic attitude towards Muslims in general. Plus, Somalis also face discriminations from other Africans for their business savvy skills an example of this is the violence against Somalis in South Africa.[3]but it's interesting to note that the native South Africans in their local communities have formed street commitees and have started to patroll the streets especially the places that have Somali shops and on top of that Somali entrepreneurs have received Local names as protection[4] so it shows the violence projected at Somali entrepreneurs is mainly from rival native shop keepers.

as you can see in my version i simply added more information about the situation that's going on in South Africa and that's not against the rule

the person that keeps editing it doesn't come to the discussion page despite my advice to do so..

so something needs to be done about this.. RoboRanks 03:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Without checking to see which revision the page is protected at, I can say a few things about what you've presented above:

• The part about there being a "huge Islamaphobic attitude in the west" should be sourced and rephrased to reflect the effect this has on Somalis. I believe that such an attitude exists, but these sorts of generalizations are contentious. Are Somalis being targeted because of this problem? I don't personally see this as being likely given that Somalis don't fit into the ignorant western stereotypes concerning Muslims. It would be best if we could find something specifically about Somali people in the west. As for the African American attacks, this sounds like a potentially notable or interesting issue and we should attempt to cover the major points of view concerning this matter. The link you presented makes a nice reference.
• The phrase "business savyy skills" borders on making a positive stereotype. I see what you're trying to say, (that some of the violence is the result of economic reasons), but I don't know if this is the best way to say it. I would further ask, is all of the violence due to economic reasons, or are there other factors at work? (Xenophobia, general racism, etc...?) Are Somalis the sole targets of violence in South Africa? Are other cultures targeted? Is this part of a more general problem in South Africa?
• We should avoid the phrase "Interesting to note".

shotwell 23:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Shotwell's points. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 09:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

the phrase business savy skills doesn't have it's origin with me, i only added to the allready existing section of the article with info about South Africans starting patrolls and the giving of local names to Somali Entrepreneurs with a reliable source attached to it

the interesting to note phrase has it's origin with me and i wasn't aware of the avoid weasel words rule so i have no problems if that part is rephrased in the article

back to the South Africa issue as you can see from my other posts on this discussion page Zimbabweans faced the same treatment when they arrived as newcomers[5]

besides for economic reason( the losing of local jobs to foreigners) could these attacks be xenophobic in origin (as in different culture, different religion)?

yes they could...but xenophobic as in looks i don't think so and the fact that Zimbabweans who share the same phenotype as black South africans are attacked as well adds more proof of that.

In South Africa every year 18 000 people are murdered so it is a big problem that is going on there[6] and my people aren't the only ones going through a bad time

the African American issue again Somalis aren't the only ones who face this treatment[7]

is this added on the articles relating to Ghanians and Hausa's Yoruba's or Fulani's?? last time i checked it wasnt, so why should it be added on the Somali article?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by RoboRanks (talk • contribs) 17:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• Based on what you are telling me, it seems like this discrimination and violence in South Africa, the west, and other places is a consequence of the Somali diaspora, rather than some underlying racism against Somalis. Is this correct? If so, could this information be placed in the section about the Somali diaspora? I agree with you that the information about South Africa is being given much more prominence than it should, but I think we could balance this problem by adding information about Somalis in other places.
• I am still very interested in the African American issue. We should cover the subject as it relates to Somalis without giving it undue weight.
• As for the "business savvy skills", I do not believe the phrase is appropriate, even if it comes from some reliable source. I have no doubt that many Somalis are business savvy, but I am fearful of making such a stereotype. Is this a common notion about Somalis?
• I have two more questions:

-What of Somalis in other western nations?

-What racial tensions exist between Somalis and the various other peoples of Africa? These cultures are very old and I would find it difficult to believe that such tensions have not evolved over the years.

shotwell 21:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

-Correct! as was the case with the Chinese and Indian diaspora's decades earlier,we can add that in the Somali Diaspora section,but demeaning or semi-insulting comments shouldn't be added

- the African American issue isn't as it's being painted in the article,A few skirmishes in a US school doesn't equall tensions in the broader Somali/African American communities, the same skirmishes happend between Nigerian immigrant kids and African Americans.

-for their success should replace for their business savvy skills what do you think?

-there is info about these communities

- the only traditional tension between Somalis and other Africans is with Ethiopians and i have been to Washington DC 2 years ago and i've seen both communities and there is no real tension between the communities there

you have Ethiopians shops in Somali malls and Somali taxi drivers riding for a Ethiopian company.

clashes between groups are usually products of ignorance as the Chinese and Indian communities received the same treatment when little was known about their culture and background 30 years ago today they are doing fine, the Somali Diaspora has blown up from a few hundred thousand 15 years ago to a few million today RoboRanks 22:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

pop size

Yom the last census was done in the late 80's since the 80's ethiopia went from around 50/60 million to 70+ it would impossible for Somalia wich was and is one of the fastest growing countries in the continent to only go from 7+ to 8 million+

the pop size in somalia itself should between 12/15 million

so i think the person that keeps changing the numbers has that in his mind RoboRanks 12:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Check out the population of Somalia over the years here, at the UN database. It could possibly be as high as 10 million, maybe even 11 under the high prediction, but 12-15 is definitely not the case. You have to consider percentages, not just the millions of people that Ethiopia's population grew by. 20 million people more from 1994 is due to a 3% growth rate, which would predict (using the P=Po*e^(r*t) formula, where P= predicted population, Po = original population, r = rate of growth, and t = time) just such a change. Substitute 6.3 million for Somalia from 1995 (don't ask me why there's a decrease from 1980 to 1995, but I trust their numbers have at least the right tendency), and the predicted number is 9 million. It's all about percentages. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 17:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Honestly i have no problems with the 15/16 number but how are you going to prevent the person with multiple IP's from changing it back to 22 million? as you can see from my earlier complaints on this talk page it's quite iritating when the person that keeps changing it doesn't visit the discussion page.

i've send a request for protection.RoboRanks 05:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Are these changes correct? --ElectricEye (talk) 02:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

no material is given to support those number so i don't think it's correct.

it's the same person with multiple accounts that's doing all the editing without discussing it. RoboRanks 06:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Population just changed again. Also, the assertion Somalia has over 9 million then makes reference to the CIA Factbook, which sites 8.8 million (i.e., less than 9 million). Nations Encyclopedia states 9.89 million. I think it is best to show ranges of high and low estimates based on the sources used. For UK, I see a report citing 95,000 Somalis in the UK (at least as of 2003), not 150,000. I think someone really needs to go through many of these numbers and do some careful fact-checking. I'd also argue that, if in the future there are any anon IP-address users who unilaterally change the numbers without citing sources, that we do a simple undo. --Petercorless 12:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

While the population range of 15-17 million seems supported by the figures, someone anonymously changed it to 15 - 25~ million. I removed that edit. Please cite sources! Also, please register and log in so we can engage in discussion on this page. --Petercorless 21:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Again, people are putting in a larger population number without a source citation. I don't mind the number, but please prove it. --Petercorless 10:23, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Too many images

Does anyone else think this article suffers from having far too many images. Perhaps we could discuss which ones are very important to the article so we can remove extraneous images once the article is unprotected? shotwell 23:26, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually a lot people i know on MSN liked what i did with the article

it gives a good view of every angle in Somali Society whether in the Diaspora or in Somalia RoboRanks 07:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree that the images add something to the text, but I think there are enough to be distracting. In parts, the article consists of nothing but image galleries. It seems like some of the images are just being used to decorate the article, given that the people in the photos are not mentioned in the article text. shotwell 10:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Could you state which parts you think there should be a decrease?

also i could under the Galleries write interesting info about the individuals from the images and add more to the article itself RoboRanks 16:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't totally sure which images should be removed -- this is why I asked which ones are very important to the article. It is very difficult for me to say which photos should be trimmed down because I don't fully understand the importance of some of these things in Somali culture.

I think there are 38 images in this article, which seems like too many. Perhaps the photos would not be so overwhelming if there were more text. At any rate, which photos do you think are absolutely necessary? Without necessarily providing an explanation of why, here are the areas that I think could be trimmed down:

• Photos of Somali communities around the world. We could select one or two of the best photos.
• Photos of Role Models, Athletes, and Musicians. Perhaps these would be less intrusive if we wrote more about such people.
• Photos Somalywood directors and movie posters. (Are these movies of particular importance in Somali culture?)
• The photo of the Holy Qu'ran seems decorative and not specifically related to Somalis.
• The various photos of Mosques are nice, but there are too many. Do any of these mosques hold a particular importance Somali culture? Once again, these photos would probably be less overwhelming if we wrote more in this section.
• The photo captioned "Audience" doesn't seem to add to the text.

I guess I could wait to see how these photos fit into the article after we have made some major additions to the article. shotwell 20:45, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Photos of Somali communities around the world. We could select one or two of the best photos."

I agree and i think it would be better if i started a seperate article about the Somali Diaspora cause there are many interesting communities from different countries i haven't adressed

• "Photos of Role Models, Athletes, and Musicians. Perhaps these would be less intrusive if we wrote more about such people.""

more info about their backgrounds and impact on Somali society should be added i agree.

• "Photos Somalywood directors and movie posters. (Are these movies of particular importance in Somali culture?)"

these movies are aired in special theatres for somalis and it's becoming a popular get together. the movie posters were only there to give a view of Somali Cinema but i could start a seperate article about this and it's impact

• "The photo of the Holy Qu'ran seems decorative and not specifically related to Somalis."
• "The various photos of Mosques are nice, but there are too many. Do any of these mosques hold a particular importance Somali culture? Once again, these photos would probably be less overwhelming if we wrote more in this section."
• "The photo captioned "Audience" doesn't seem to add to the text."

I'm thinking of expanding the Islam in Somalia article when i have more time outside my studies

it's better if only the Mogadishu Mosque is kept in the somali people article, i will use the other ones in the main article about Islam RoboRanks 21:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the photos in the article are now missing. It needs general cleanup to account for the missing pictures. It is also missing pictures of present political figures, which I will add. --Petercorless 23:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

RoboRanks

You completely change everything that has to do with Somalis for your own purpose. You erased that Somalis trace back to Ancient Egypt, that they are not apart of the negroid race (THEY AREN'T THEY ARE CUSHITIC as stated in the BEGINNING OF THE ARTICLE).

Secondly, the South Africans did target the Somalis because of their looks. How should I know, because of RELIABLE RESOURCES WHICH I PUT and you DELETED! They also did that to the Indians.

You erase everything and anything that shows the depth and reality of what we Somalis go through on a daily basis in Bantu countries. Bantu is not an offensive term that is what they are, another word for Negroid. These are anthropological terms!

I suggest you open your eyes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetie1986 (talk • contribs) 00:27, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Sweetie1986 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.41.202 (talk • contribs) 01:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

first of all...my purpose is to educate non somalis about my people

second.. our origins are not with the ancient egyptians

the land of punt could have been an area including todays Ethiopia,Djibouti,Eritrea and Somalia, todays borders didn't exist in 2500 BC..but still this doesn't mean pseudo-info like we are the last remnants of the ancient egyptians should be added in the article cause a link to a discussion board is not peer-reviewed material by profesionals.

third... the cushtic people -Oromo's,Afar's,Beja's,Somalis and other groups in Ethiopia ,Eritrea and Somalia are known as Elongated Africans as stated on the table by Anthropologist/Genetist Hiernaux [8]

West Africans like the fulani are also known as Elongated Africans these facial features aren't unique in Africa.

the Tutsi's are bantu people they carry e3a and we carry e3b but they have the same facial features as us[9]

and they are known just like the Somalis as Elongated Africans

fourth.. i have no problems with highlighting or mentioning that our people are going through a tough time in South Africa but i don't like sinister use of language like south africans have a inferiority complex (this article is not made to be used as a tool to dehumanize other people) or they are targeting them based on their looks that's a fallacy like i said before cause Zimbabweans went throught the same ordeal[10] also as you can see right now in the article i added info about the homegrown iniative done by native South Africans against these attacks by rival shop keepers

again this is clear proof that the attacks had more to do with the socio-economics of South Africa than looks

i want this article to be neutral on this point but you delete it without discussing it

it took me a request for protection to get you on the talk page let's not do this the next time we have a disagreement and let's prevent these childish edit-wars

If you have something against other Africans it's best that you keep that to yourself (no offence) than painting a whole group of people with the same brush RoboRanks 07:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply---- You are not Somali, it is CLEARER then water. You are trying to educate people, but yet you can't even spell "racism" and you FLOODED the Somali people page with unneccessary pictures (have you noticed none of the pictures even look remotely nice) and if someone posts pictures that are beautiful about Somalia, there you are ERASING it like crazy. What is your problem? This post is not neutral but biased, based on what you feel. If you owned Wikipedia I could understand it, BUT YOU DON'T!

Somalis were discriminated AGAINST because of their looks in South African (and many BANTU countries in Africa)their organs were taken out and sold (why not post that?). The truth should be told, not take one side of the story for your own sense of security.

Somalis and those of the horn are GENETICALLY different. If you were Somali you'd now that, and that they were different than the Fulani from Senegal and Northern Nigeria. On top of that their place of origin isn't even KNOWN. They could be migrates, even so they look NOTHING like Somalis or Ethiopians. I personally know someone who from the tribe of Fulani {and believe me that individual looks NOTHING like Iman (Somali model) }

By the way understand that I do not have multiple usernames, maybe just MAYBE some people have the same ideology as me.

Wikipedia people deserve the TRUTH! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.41.202 (talk • contribs) 15:25, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Sweetie1986 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.41.202 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

sweetie1986 writes "You are not Somali, it is CLEARER then water. You are trying to educate people, but yet you can't even spell "racism" What is your problem? This post is not neutral but biased, based on what you feel. If you owned Wikipedia I could understand it, BUT YOU DON'T!"

There is no need for ad hominems everybody makes typo's but making a typo isn't as bad as painting a whole group of people as criminals,Something your trying really hard to do.

I'm a Somali you can type in somali and i will reply to you in Af somali.

the discrimination section is more neutral than any edit you have done in the last week

you have a problem with me giving a broader view of the situation in South Africa you don't like me presenting information that discredits your witchhunt on South africans or Bantu Africans, you don't like the fact that native south africans are helping somali entrepreneurs

you don't want that info to be added cause it discredits you.

"and you FLOODED the Somali people page with unneccessary pictures (have you noticed none of the pictures even look remotely nice) and if someone posts pictures that are beautiful about Somalia, there you are ERASING it like crazy."

i know many people that have visited the somali people page and they enjoy the pics of their homeland and fellow compatriots who are doing Big..

before this there was nothing

only emptyness

the page looks much better according to the many non somalis and somalis i know but if multiple members like shotwell of wikipedia (and i mean individual members not sockpuppets) think there should be a decrease i have no problems with that.

you discuss before you edit that's what this discussion page is for.

"Somalis were discriminated AGAINST because of their looks in South African (and many BANTU countries in Africa)their organs were taken out and sold (why not post that?). The truth should be told, not take one side of the story for your own sense of security."

Should i also add what Somali bantu's are going through in our country should i add what multiple minorities go through??

Racism happens in every society.

the discrimination section adresses every angle of the situation in South Africa.

"Somalis and those of the horn are GENETICALLY different. If you were Somali you'd now that, and that they were different than the Fulani from Senegal and Northern Nigeria. On top of that their place of origin isn't even KNOWN. They could be migrates, even so they look NOTHING like Somalis or Ethiopians. I personally know someone who from the tribe of Fulani {and believe me that individual looks NOTHING like Iman (Somali model)"

actually Somalis and Ethiopians carry E3b and West africans like the Fulani carry E3a

both E3b and E3a are derived from E3[11]

therefore both East Africans and West africans are connected through E3 a branch of the Y chromosome Haplogroup E

If you don't like this fact because of your obvious dislike for other africans than that's very sad

but like Martin said to you semi-racist or provocative comments shouldn't be added in the article.

"By the way understand that I do not have multiple usernames, maybe just MAYBE some people have the same ideology as me. Wikipedia people deserve the TRUTH!"

what wikipedia needs is peer reviewed evidence to back up claims not links to silly discussion forums that say somalis are ancient Egyptians or other pseudo-Dogma

what wikipedia needs is honest editors who don't hide behind multiple names and make it seem as if there is a big following agreeing on the same point that's what wikipedia needs. RoboRanks 16:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I cannot find anything to back up the assertion that Somalis are the last of the ancient Egyptians (or anything similar). I also agree that some of the additions to the article seemed to have racist overtones; such things have absolutely no place on wikipedia. I would like to see this page unprotected, is there any way that we could resolve this matter? RoboRanks, do you have any ideas? Sweetie1986, do you have any ideas? shotwell 22:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no problems with the page returning to the unprotected mode

i just hope sweetie1986 realizes the fact that this article isn't intended to be used as tool to let out ones own personal feelings towards a group of people, i also hope sweetie1986 understands that before she edits something she should come to the discussion page and state the reasons of editing RoboRanks 22:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Based on the exchange above, I'm not sure if unprotection is warranted. I think that the edit war would continue. Do you have any ideas about resolving the disagreement with Sweetie1986 so we can rewrite the disputed sections in a way that they will not be simply be reverted, replaced, or deleted? shotwell 22:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

there should be no demeaning use of language projected at other groups of people when adressing certain issue's concerning somali people ,this is important

pseudo-info about Ancient History without reliable peer-reviewed evidence to back it up shouldn't be added aswell these are small things i'm asking i'm openminded guy and i'm willing to change but i won't change my stand on the not use of sinister language in the article or the Ancient Egypt part cause it's simply not right and not true RoboRanks 22:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

These are fair expectations, but if there is a large amount of credible and recent research concerning this Ancient Egypt thing, we need to mention the fact. It sounds, however, as if this is an antiquated belief that has been superseded by contemporary research. Is this true? If so, perhaps we could mention it in this fashion? Sweetie1986, do you think it is possible to phrase and source your information in a manner that conforms to RoboRanks expectations? Furthermore, what expectations do you have? What compromises are you willing to make? shotwell 23:02, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

REPLYING----------

You are completely oblivious to the truth, RoboRanks. Especially your nonsencial beliefs that I have time to get MULTIPLE usernames (Why waste my time?), perhaps you are just feeling a bit blown out of the water that people don't believe in what you are trying to implement into their brains.

If you want TO show the Somalis, you should SHOW the whole concepts without biased. You might be Somali, but perhaps in the lower secular divison of Somalis. About the E3, do you KNOW all people are connected? I've also resorted in telling you that Fulani are UNKNOWN, they migrated to Senegal (by the way, not ALL people that are from Senegal or West Africans are Funali). They could have come from Ethiopia and mixed with them, but do not come here and tell me West Africans and Somalis are connected because that is farfetched.

Does it hurt you to actually THINK and acknowledge that Africans can be different?

About the Ancient Egyptian thing, it is a KNOWN fact that we Somalis especially those from Puntland are DIRECT decendants of them. I might not know what Somali you are but I know my lineage from all the way to year 590.

Futhermore, if someone WRITES something you do not like there you are erasing it even if they have sources.

Why not ADD the Somalis being KILLED and their ORGANS in South Africa and being sold in the black market? Do you know how many Ethiopians and Somalis have been VICTIM in South Africa? Being killed, raped and beaten for being different?

Why aren't there nice pictures on here? WHAT HAPPEN TO 1960s- 1990 XAMAR? how about Bosasso?

I want this to continue LOCKED! It should stay NEUTRAL, not BIASED!

Maybe you want this article to be like "Black Hawk Down" movie where they took NON-Somalis and planted them as Somalis. But I want MY PEOPLE to be seen for what they are, unique and beautiful humans who make mistakes.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.41.202 (talk • contribs) 02:13, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Shotwell: What I want, he doesn't. Therefore I want this section locked on top of that, why is he allowed to do what he wants, but I am not?

Shotwell: Link to Somalis and Egyptians [12]

{{{The Origin Of The Egyptian People The ancient Egyptians traced their origin to the land they called ‘Punt’ or ‘Ta- Neteru’ (Land Of Gods). According to the scholars of Egyptian history these area encompasses Eritrea, Ethiopian Highlands and Somalia.}}}

[Username:Sweetie1986] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.41.202 (talk • contribs) 02:20, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

• All South Africans are killers and muggers --->is not the truth
• Somalis descend from the Ancient Egyptians ---> is not the truth, having reddish brown skin doesn't equall a bloodline to Egypt. You say that you only use one account but all these IP's make the same little changes and use the same sinister language you can't fool me i know when i see a multi-nick member.

• Again you are getting to emotional with me, I'm a Majerteen (Omar Mahmoud) and my mother is from Galkayo and my father from Bosaso so your whole claim of me trying to prevent this page from being used as a tool to dehumanize others based on my background doesn't have credibility,like I said before i have no problems with highlighting what is going on in South Africa but if you going to use demeaning language than i won't support it,a news reporter who's fellow country men is murdered doesn't use sinister language when he/she is reporting the situation no he/she stays professional and that's exactly what you should do stay professional and restrain yourself from getting personal and generalising a whole group of people for the actions of a few.

• No you claimed in your earlier post that East Africans and West Africans are genetically different i simply showed that both come from the same Haplogroup E so nothing farfetched about this fact and i showed you Bantu people like the Tutsi's who carry e3a have the same facial features as us.

• Abaayo beenta iskadaaf you don't trace your family tree all the way to 590 but still that doesn't mean much cause the last Pharaonic Egyptian Dynasty was the 30th dynasty and that was around 400 BC, that you say we are the Descendants of the Ancient Egyptians clearly tells me you have no idea what your talking about,the mythical Land of Punt according to the Ancient Egyptians was the land of Gods and the place where there Ancestors came from, so it's not East Africans that are descendants of Ancient Egyptians no it's the other way around but Ethiopians and Somalis are indiginous to the Horn of Africa.

• I never erased a source of anyone i simply added but if i see ridicilous claims without sources to back it up then i'm in my right to edit and provide info with sources to back it

• What happend to the 1960-90 Xamar?? this is not the history of somalia page.

• I don't think graphic pictures are allowed to be used on Wikipedia.

• First of all as you can see in my exchanges with Shotwell i'm a openminded guy who's willing to change but like i said i won't support demeaning use of words in the article or pseudo-info RoboRanks 11:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

---Replying---

I have not dehumanized anyone, but in this discrimination headline you stated, that other Africans were jealous of Somalis for their savvy business skills (OTHER AFRICANS isn't that a GENERALIZATION?). You are a complete hypocrite, who wants to control this page and if someone bring something to the table your emotions get the way of it.

Speaking about the news, there are BIASES in the news and apparently you are doing well reporting nonsencial information by belittling Somalis.

Don't call me Abaayo, I want nothing to do with someone who has hatred for themselves and their people. I don't know about you but I know about my lineages, and there is no lies about it.

I never asked for graphic pictures to be shown, I say they should be included (as in the text) in the discrimination headline. You can show one side of the story and compeletely dismiss the others. Is that what you call NEURTAL?

For the genetic similarities have you noticed that all Somalis have the same appearance wise you can tell one from a mile away. But for the Tutsi and the Fulani they don't have same "look" and there is a small population of them. This has no relevancy what so ever, I have brown eyes so does that mean everyone that has brown eyes is someway connected to me? I personally believe you want all Africans to be the same, but that is not possible. Somalis are not apart of the negroid race (why does it hurt you to write that?).

About Xamar, I meant PICTURES of the people at that time. There is a picture of Mad Mullah on here with his horse in the genetics divison (what does the Mad Mullah have to do with genetics?), and by the isn't the Mad Mullah a scope into Somali history?

HYPOCRISY AT ITS BEST!

[Sweetie1986] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.72.2.96 (talk • contribs) 17:55-19:46, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I have not dehumanized anyone,

• on 19 November 2006 time 01:16 you made this edit below

Somalis also face various discriminations. In the West, there is a huge Islamaphobic attitude towards Muslims in general. Plus, Somalis also face discriminations from Bantu and Negroid Africans and African Americans. In South Africa many have fallen victim due to their business savvy skills and their apperance of "looking different" an example of this is the violence against Somalis in South Africa.[13]. In the Somali community, many believe this stems from inferiority complexes

• you provided no concrete evidence to back up your statement that many of my people believed South africans suffer from a inferiority complex..you simply projected your personal feelings into the edit and made a gross generalisation of Somali people's opinion on this subject.

but in this discrimination headline you stated, that other Africans were jealous of Somalis for their savvy business skills (OTHER AFRICANS isn't that a GENERALIZATION?). You are a complete hypocrite, who wants to control this page and if someone bring something to the table your emotions get the way of it.

• your trying really hard to make a case but you fail, when i said other it's in the context of Somalis also being part of the African family therefore it's not dehuminazing at all and nothing compared to making a ridiculous claim that South Africans suffer from a Inferiority Complex as you did

Don't call me Abaayo, I want nothing to do with someone who has hatred for themselves and their people. I don't know about you but I know about my lineages, and there is no lies about it.

• I'm a Gentleman i call all my sisters Abaayo's even if they are slightly confused, and if your like me a darood then you and me both know our qabiil lineage is nowhere near Egypt.

For the genetic similarities have you noticed that all Somalis have the same appearance wise you can tell one from a mile away. But for the Tutsi and the Fulani they don't have same "look" and there is a small population of them. This has no relevancy what so ever, I have brown eyes so does that mean everyone that has brown eyes is someway connected to me? I personally believe you want all Africans to be the same, but that is not possible. Somalis are not apart of the negroid race (why does it hurt you to write that?).

• again ad hominems, did i ever state that Somalis are part of the Negriod race? no! did i state that both west africans and east africans share lineages that ultimatly connect through E3? yes! because that's the truth and not all Somalis look like Iman so don't even go there!!....Comparing eyecolor with Y chromosome is ridicilous brown eyes is one of the most dominant eye color in a human gene on earth and its the result of the amount of Melanin a person has but would you want to exclude Somalis from the Human Race aswell??

I never asked for graphic pictures to be shown, I say they should be included (as in the text) in the discrimination headline. You can show one side of the story and compeletely dismiss the others. Is that what you call NEURTAL?

• in the whole Edit war not once have you added this information let alone with sources,so how do you come to the conclusion i would dismiss it, like i said i have no problems with highlighting the situation there, we can add that information but without the use of demeaning language,this article represents my people this article represents me and i don't want my people or me to be seen a racists just because one editor couldn't controll ones own emotions - we can add that info about the attrocities that are committed on somali people in south africa with reliable sources but without demeaning use of words do you agree?

About Xamar, I meant PICTURES of the people at that time. There is a picture of Mad Mullah on here, isn't that a scope of Somali history?

• why didn't you come to the discussion page and say Hey RoboRanks could you add some pics from Xamar-weyn of 1960-90 because i would appreciate it if you did and my reply would have been sure why not do you have some pictures or something interesting to add if so tell me.

• that's what this discussion page is for it's to exchange ideas RoboRanks 19:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Replying=====

You must suffer from bipolar disorder. Why are you even talking about Qabiil for? Since you like being madow so much, I advise you to go to your hooyo and tell her you are marrying one, I’d really like to see how that would go, and your whole explanation on how madows and Somalis have the same E3 connection (LOL). I am realistic, while you live in a Utopian society full of flowers, and people holding hands. In order to shows Somalis you have to show the spectrums, the good and the bad. You are making others the victim, while we (Somalis) are the perpetrators of all that is bad. If South Africans came to live in Somalia would we have taken their organs, because they were doing better than us business wise? No.

Of course not all Somalis look like Iman (6’0 tall, skinny and a supermodel LOL), but we have all a distinct appearance, and do not tell me we don’t. Because I can tell a Somali a mile away, and I know you can so stop trying to act like I am bewildering you and filling your mind with nonsense.

You think the term Negro or Bantu is racist, it isn’t. And if it were there wouldn’t be PAGES dedicated to that on Wikipedia, you just don’t like those terms because of your own will.

Well Melanin has nothing to do with race, and eye color doesn’t also. I am willing to compromise, but it must stay neutral. With both the bad and good being seen, by the way why do you have dad fool xun on the pages (LOL)?

[Username:Sweetie1986] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.41.202 (talk • contribs) 23:18, 26 November - 15:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

All of these personal attacks need to cease immediately. You say you are willing to compromise and that is great. Could you please explicitly and clearly state your expectations for this article? It'll be easier to find a compromise if our expectations are clear. shotwell 18:34, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Sweetie sis i respect you as a grown up so let's stop the personal attacks,why don't you add the information you want to add in the new Somali Diaspora article i'm planning to start at the end of this week when i have some time, you can start a whole section about the events going on in South Africa but without the use of degrading words? would you agree? RoboRanks 22:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes RoboRanks. I agree, we should really get along for the sake of our country. By the way, can the pictures be moved around? It seems disorganized. Just do what you can do.

Let us just forget about the whole South Africa thing okay? Lets just make this page progressive...do you agree?

[Sweetie1986]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.41.202 (talk • contribs) 04:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This is great. I'm happy that we were able to find some compromise. I think that RoboRanks already agreed to evaluate the many photographs once the page is unprotected. There is also the issue of fair use images that are possibly being used inappropriately. Can you both agree not to edit war if the page is unprotected, even if a new disagreement comes up? shotwell 12:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Replying

Shotwell, yes, but i believe this page needs a lot of dedication and organized. To Roboranks, we do not need to add the Somali Diaspora, since there is already a page dedicated to it on the "Somalia" page on wikipedia. Secondly, there are too many pictures but little information. I am willing to compromise but it needs to stay neutral, and to always implement the first amendment.

[Sweetie1986] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.72.2.181 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

this is nice,Shotwell no editwars for me and Sweetie the reason why i want to start a seperate article on the Somali diaspora is because there are many communities i want to adress but if i do it on the Somali people page it might be to much and it might consume the whole page,also please state in wich order you would like to see these images so we have a clear view on your side also me and Shotwell are planning to add info to these images so you might change your opinion about them bye RoboRanks 11:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, RoboRanks go right on ahead. But I do disagree with something you will see my edits,but there will be no edit wars. I will probably organize it. By the way, can you put a section entitled "Supermodels" addressing both Iman and Yasmin Warsame (I'll do the bios for them)

This picture is the one I want used for Yasmin Warsame http://www.somalinet.com/phalbums/albums/userpics/aa.jpg

This picture is the one I want used for Iman http://www.moq3.com/pics/up/c_07_06_06/c70a1c3aa5.jpg

Sweetie1986 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.72.2.60 (talk • contribs) 00:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion: Somali popular culture

You might want to skinny down the page by making a separate page for "Somali popular culture" -- which would include authors, musicians, and media (radio/TV) personalities. --Petercorless 00:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Population Figures

Once again, someone keeps coming in and inflating the Somali figures to 22 million. I'll keep deflating that until someone can cite a sourced figure. Not wanting to be too harsh, but this has been endemic for a while now. --Petercorless

Ethnography vs. Ethnicity

It might be important to note the available figures of language speakers. These ethnographic figures (what people speak) are different than ethnicities (what genes you have), but could be cited as an example between linguistic affiliation as Somali speakers and those of ethnic descent. The information is based on census figures which may be out of date compared to the recent diaspora. Perhaps some mention can be made to the Somali language page, too:

Ethnologue Report

• Somalia: 7,784,434
• Yemen: 678,904
• Kenya: 420,354
• Djibouti: 291,200
• Italy: 50,626
• United Arab Emirates: 46,412
• Saudi Arabia: 42,727
• Finland: 3,103
• UK: 1,600

• Australia: n/a
• Brazil: n/a
• Canada: n/a
• Netherlands: n/a
• Denmark: n/a
• Norway: n/a
• New Zealand: n/a
• South Africa: n/a
• Sweden: n/a
• USA: n/a

--Petercorless 14:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Image in box

I really don't care which image is used. It can be Image:SomalipeopleSawir.jpg, Image:Somalis1234.JPG or Image:Somalis123.JPG. But what I would like to see is something like the picture used on English people which can be seen at Image:English-people.JPG. In other words who are the people in the pictures? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 05:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Without even addressing the merits of one image versus those of another, I'm not even sure any of them should be here at all. These seem, to me, to clearly be derivative works, not original works. They are merely photomontages of different photographers' works and I, for one, do not think they meet a threshold for originality whereby the uploader feels he or she can claim to be the creator of the work. I think we need to indicate the sources of the individual photos, and demonstrate that it's OK to use them on Wikipedia, or else they all need to go. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 05:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

This turned out to be harder than I thought. After going through everybody in Category:Somali people and the subcategories I have a few comments. Some of the images in the collages above are not free use. Some are copyright or fair use and may not be usable here. While trying to find usable pictures I did not search through the histroy of any article to see if the picture had been changed so I probably missed several. After reviewing the images attached to articles I removed the copyright and fair-use images. Next I cut out the imgaes that had usable tags but were obviously not tagged correctly (scanned book image claimed as uploader creation). Also cut out were images uploaded by editors that have had multiple images delted for tagging problems.

So I was left with the following:

1. Image:Exams xamar05-06.gif
2. Image:Somalia marketplace 1 DoD.JPG
3. Image:Gabilay farming.jpg
4. Image:Gold shop Hargeisa.jpg
5. Image:Somalia farmer woman.jpg
6. Image:Somali school in Dadaab, Kenya refugee camp.jpg
7. Image:Beledweyne Somalia food aid.jpg
8. Image:Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali-VVD.NL-1200x1600.JPG
9. Image:Abdiqassim Salad Hassan 1.jpg
10. Image:General Mohammed Farrah Aidid.jpg
11. Image:Somali children.jpg
12. Image:Young Somali Mother and Babe NGM-v31-p558.jpg
13. Image:IMG 5931.JPG

The first two are on Wikipedia and the rest are from the commons. I've looked as some of the other collages used in "people" articles and for the most part they tend to be made up of well known people. I would prefer a mixture of people both well know and the ordinary. I would like to see 8 images used to make up the collage and my choice here would be, 12, 13, 10, 9, 5, 8, 2 and 1. However, they must be more pictures about and I might change my mind on seeing them, with the exception of image 12. I think the look on the face of the woman is incredible. By the way the only picture of which I am 100% sure that we can use without any problem is 13. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 15:15, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I just want to clarify that I think the collage image itself is a good idea, but the individual images therein must meet the same criteria as all other Wikipedia images. Re: "…scanned book image claimed as uploader creation…" Yes, I was wondering how someone could have claimed to be the creator of an Ahmed Gurey image. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean how could someone have claimed to be the creator of an Ahmed gurey image?? i have different shots of the statue in question in my possession from before the civil war, second about the image Image:SomalipeopleSawir.jpg i'm currently contacting the copyright owners from the sites i got it from and when i have permission i will re-insert it, just keep the image box empty like many other ethnicy articles untill i have everything fixed there's no need to come with unflattering images of a naked woman and her child or warlords the only feeling i and many others visiting this site get is people wanting to paint an ugly and backwards view of us, i hope i'm wrong about this RoboRanks 22:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

RoboRanks, like any country there are both good and bad. Why do you feel that the face of the woman is unflattering, as to her being naked, well that's your view of her not mine. As to reinserting the SomalipeopleSawir.jpg well that will depend on consensus and fully complying with Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission. While I think there should be some pictures of important/well known faces there needs to be some of ordinary people as well. Take a look at Inuit. The image there is a unknown woman from 1907 and to my mind is much better than using one of the better known Inuit people. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 14:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

RoboRanks, I'm sorry about that, I'm not referring to your statue photo and confused it with another. You might want to at least indicate who sculpted the statue, though, because strictly speaking it's a photo of a statue not a photo of Ahmed Gurey. And to add to CBW's comments, when you check with these other websites (I don't know what they are) make sure that they indeed own the rights to the images in question, and haven't simply copied them from other sites. Just trying to avoid any future frustrations... -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Sine picture #12 is (apparently) in the public domain, I don't think anything would prevent us from cropping the photo and just using the woman's face, if that is indeed preferable. -- Gyrofrog (talk)

CBW we aren't a minority in our country that comparison of Inuits is off, if there was a article about minorities from Somalia it would be on target. You yourself gave the English people as an example on how the image box should look like so tell me where in that image do you see a regular person? where in the following people's pages do you see regular people?

German people,Norwegian people, Greeks,Swedish people,Turkish people,French people,Italian people, Spanish people.

Saying in every country there are bad or good doesn't cutt it, a image box with the following important personalities; Rageh Omaar,Waris Dirie,Yasmin Warsame and K'naan with their names below the image is much better

Gyrofrog no problem i hope you didn't get impression i was somehow attacking you in any way( cause i wasn't!..(more like curious about what you said)..) about the designer of the statue i will look it up!. About SomalipeopleSawir.jpg i've read the link about copyright permission i was given and i will press for concrete evidence from these sites that they really are the owners of those images and if not redirect me to the real owners and from there i will continue RoboRanks 21:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding me. When I mentioned the English people picture I ment in that it was a collage that explained who they were. That it does not contain pictures of ordinary people from throughout history is a great loss to Wikipedia and to the readers. Your mention of minorities has nothing to do with the discussion at all and Im not sure why you bring that up. All I was saying is that the Inuit article has an image of an ordinary person rather than an important/well known one such as the image at Paul Okalik. When I come to this (or any article about a countries people) I want to find out about them. At the same time I want to be able to look up important/well known people. But I want to know what the ordinary people look and dress like, not just now but in history as well. By the way in a rather odd twist I see that List of Somalians was not linked from here. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 23:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

We can do well with the pictures of the wellknown Somalis we have on the current Somali people picture and the other one RoboRanks has. We don't need warlords or a naked woman on display with warlords too.

And you can't find a picture of Ahmed Gurey, and the statue was made a while ago in Mogadishu. Since Robo says he took it, its his work. FAH1223 05:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Right now then you have five pictures that are OK to use, Image:King Ahmed Gurey Mog.jpg, Image:Ayaan-Hirsi-Ali-VVD.NL-1200x1600.JPG, Image:Abdiqassim Salad Hassan 1.jpg, Image:General Mohammed Farrah Aidid.jpg and Image:IMG 5931.JPG. The rest of the pictures currently fall under licences that stop them from being used. What is it with the naked part. I wanted her head, her face AND not the body. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 21:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

the idea of somali's being eurasian is a lie. We are full black african .its like saying a chinese person is not chinese.that is very racist of the people to put that down .and its not for ALL somalis ok .aight —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cherria (talk • contribs) 21:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Image caption

Could someone please explain what the caption has to do with the image in the infobox? Corvus cornix 18:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The origianl image was deleted and a new one put in without the caption being changed. Fixed. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Xhksposter3.JPG

Image:Xhksposter3.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 12:27, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Somalians in Canada

There is not 200,000 Somalians in Caanda; there are 25,000 (here is the link: http://216.239.51.104/search link

That's an estimate from 1997 so I used the Canada 2001 Census instead. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 22:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, there are only about 25,000 in Canada. Also, it says at the top there are 100,000 nationally, but then it says there are 200,000 in Toronto ALONE! I live in Toronto, I know for a fact that is not true. Plus the number's don't jive. I'm taking a zero off of that number. 99.234.23.2 (talk) 09:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

July 2007 vandalism

(Cross-posted to WP:AN/I) In the Somali people article, 86.149.253.205 (talk · contribs) was repeatedly removing the "Prophet" honorific from Muhammad's name and changing "Somali diaspora" to "Somali infection" ([14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]). The former is actually a legitimate edit as per WP:MOSISLAM. The latter edit is vandalism and the IP (based in the UK) has since been blocked for 24 hours. Subsequently, 140.112.29.207 (talk · contribs) (based in Taiwan) made the same edit with a vengefully-worded edit summary ([20]). I blocked the new IP address, but I am planning on protecting the article if this continues. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Italian?

Why is Italian put as a language of the Somali people at the same level as the indigenous Somali language? While it may have some importance for the Southern Somalis, it has little influence on the rest of the ethnicity. If Italian is put, you may as well put Arabic, English, and even French (Djibouti) on that list as well. I am taking it off, if it's okay.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.235.43.195 (talk • contribs) 05:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Somali diaspora: Canada

I've removed the following from the "Somali diaspora" section:

In Canada, Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Hamilton, Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary have the largest Somali populations.

If the cited reference gives Somali population in individual Canadian cities, I am unable to find it. We need a more specific URL (if, indeed, it exists) or we need to cite a better source. In the meantime, editors have been adding cities to this statement, to the point where it has become meaningless, because this includes Canada's biggest cities (in which immigrant populations are typically higher). Which city has the highest population, and what is the specific source for this information? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 13:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)