Talk:Sharur

Requested moves

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the pages at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

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• Şərur → Sharur
• Şəmkir → Shamkir
• Şahbuz → Shahbuz

– The all Azerbaijani city names should be moved to English version as it is official versions. Moreover, there is more results in English version of it and some Azerbaijani letters is unknown to readers, which will cause problems in reading the article such as "Şəmkir". Xoncha (talk) Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NovaSkola 09:42, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Shamkir redirects to the district, not the city. Dekimasuよ! 11:28, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - as with all the other moves. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:34, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Again, rather than single-handedly making an undiscussed bulk moves that affects the stable titling of an entire article corpus, note that recent English books do use Turkic diacritics for Azerbaijani the same as en.wp historically has done for all Turkic geo articles: [http://www.amazon.com/Lonely-Planet-Georgia-Armenia-Azerbaijan/dp/174179403X/ Lonely Planet Georgia, Armenia & Azerbaijan uses Turkic diacritics] [http://www.amazon.com/Azerbaijan-Excursions-Georgia-Mark-Elliott/dp/190586423X/ Azerbaijan Excursions Guide uses Turkic script] etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:46, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

• Support. All titles should use letters from the English alphabet. Red Slash 00:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
• Note striking confirmed sock as per normal ongoing AFD RFC RM practice. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NovaSkola In ictu oculi (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 10 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus with evidence that the common name in English is as proposed.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:31, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

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Şərur → Sharur – Move to "Sharur" per WP:UE/WP:COMMONNAME/WP:ENGLISH:

Results from Google News: Sharur: 245 Şərur: 1

Results from Google Scholar: Sharur: 326 Şərur: 56

This is the same name but an anglicized version. Unlike other small villages, this is a fairly large town, which has made lot of appearances in English-language media, in most of which, "Sharur" has been used much more, establishing its WP:COMMONNAME. I'd also like to ask the closing admin to give more attention to the arguments being made rather than the vote counts. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 17:10, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

• @CuriousGolden: The place is ruled by Azerbaijan now, so use Azerbaijani spelling? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 17:10, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Anthony Appleyard, it was never in the contested region, not even close to it (you're probably thinking of Nagorno-Karabakh). "Sharur" is just the anglicized version of the Azerbaijani name of Şərur. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:23, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support Wikipedia:ENGLISH. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 18:03, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support Just comparing Google News, the spelling "Sharur" is ubiquitous, while "Şərur" is almost unused. Also seconding Solavirum. Tenpop421 (talk) 22:13, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support per WP:UE. - Station1 (talk) 06:56, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support per WP:USEENGLISH. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:43, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Why now? This was rejected in 2014, what's suddenly the reason for Britishizing the city in 2021? Şərur would be the name we'd use if this was an Azerbaijan small town or village so not convinced that this city is well known enough to justify the title being an exonym. We do us the Azerbaijan şğİiIı in place names, so how many big cities exactly have we decided now need Anglo-American names? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:30, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
  • We prefer anglicized name per WP:ENGLISH especially when the anglicized name is in common use in media. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:53, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

• @CuriousGolden, Tenpop421, Solavirum, Station1, and Rreagan007: We for a long times have accepted diacriticked letters such as àáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïñòóôõöøùúûüý, and Slavonic letters such as čšž, and the macron on Latvian vowels, into foreign names in English-language text, limited largely by physical inabilities such as what letters are in a typewriter or a typesetting machine being used. With the coming of Atatürk's orthography reforms we have come to accept şğİiIı also. The question now is: now that Azerbaijan is on the world stage, do we allow ǝ to join? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:41, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Anthony Appleyard, as far as I know, Ə has always been accepted as article title since it's part of extended Latin. However, I don't think that's related to this discussion, as "Sharur" is in much wider use in English-language media than Şərur. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:46, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
    • @CuriousGolden, Tenpop421, Solavirum, Station1, and Rreagan007: But now much does a small out-of-the-way place such as Şərur/Sharur get mentioned in books and the public media? 13:49, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
      • Anthony Appleyard, we can know that by using google (news) and google scholar results (as WP:COMMONNAME suggests). For example, there are 235 results for Sharur on English Google News while only 1 for Şərur. There are 326 results for Sharur on Google Scholar (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22Sharur%22+%22Azerbaijan%22&btnG=) while only 56 results for Şərur (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=%22%C5%9E%C9%99rur%22+%22Azerbaijan%22&btnG=). — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:14, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
    • Most English-language sources use the Anglicised variant more oftenly, as I know. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:53, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

• Still oppose - we don't discriminate against Maltese għ or German ß, how is Azerbaijani different. We need to see something more sensible than "Eek!" in surprised response to ə. If there are a set of large towns with genuine exonyms, fine. But this discussion above hasn't thought about any consistent approach to Azerbaijan geo article corpus, this is just, with all respect to editors who aren't simply saying USETABLOID, a drive-by, the kind of thing that occasionally happens to East European bios. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  (Note: This is same user's second vote)
  Reply: (Note: No Curious Golden it's not my "second vote" as indicated by the word STILL, it's a comment, that I stand with my above vote. I'm gone for 24 hours now, please restore any undiscussed moves to status quo titles)
  • Please don't edit my or anyone else's comments again In ictu oculi (talk) 10:59, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• @CuriousGolden, Tenpop421, Solavirum, Station1, and Rreagan007: What has happened in or involving Şərur that has got into the international public media? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 13:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Anthony Appleyard, err, this is not really related to the move discussion (and I don't think it's good to ping everyone for an irrelevant question). It's not one single event that made it appear in English-media. You can check out the links above that we've provided which shows all Sharur's appearances in News and Scholarly books. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:01, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
    • @CuriousGolden: The mention of "WP:COMMONNAME" above seems to imply that Şərur or some event there is commonly known of. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
      • @Anthony Appleyard: uhh.... I never said Sharur isn't known of. I just told you that there's not a single event that made it come into English-language media. I know you're writing in good faith, but I'm really having hard time understanding what you're saying. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:25, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• support move - on a little investigation, this does seem like the most common usage of this name. There is no issue with using diacritics in names of articles, but only if RS also do. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:56, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
  • @Lee Vilenski: this small town has the same population as Psedakh, Şərur has 6964 inhabitants. I'm surprised you found it in a recent English book at all. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:12, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
• The spelling Sharur likely arose under Soviet rule by its local pronunciation [ʃærur] or similar being represented as closely as the Russian Cyrillic alphabet could manage, as Шарур. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 12:31, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose this trend of "hockeyization" of Azerbaijani placenames, which are already in (extended) Latin alphabet. Yeah, historically, Azerbaijan was under Russian sphere of influence and used Cyrillic, but in 1991 the current Latin alphabet was introduced, although the transition to it has been rather slow. It's no surprise that (sparse) English renderings of placenames have come via transliteration from Russian, but by 2021 AD they have established Azeri Latin forms that we should adopt, like for every other nation. I could live with the effort being systemic and a local WP:NCGN agreed, but this renaming has been haphazard so far, and has left a glaring WP:INCONSISTENCY for no obvious reason. Sharur is just as exotic as Şərur for outsiders. No such user (talk) 15:48, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
  • No such user, how is any of that relevant? We're not changing the name to a random, made-up anglicized name to avoid Azeri letters. This is not about getting rid of Azerbaijani letters in the name, it's about the fact that "Sharur" is the WP:COMMONNAME as proven extensively by me and other users above. "Incosistency" is irrelevant here as quite a lot of Azerbaijani cities have anglicized names (e.g. Fuzuli (city); Jabrayil, Zangilan, Sumgait, Qubadli, Shamakhi, Kalbajar and so on..) — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:56, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
    • It's random in the sense that some placenames get rendered in native Azeri Latin alphabet, and yet others in a semi-random English transliteration from former Russian or Azeri Cyrillic form. No, I don't think that an Azerbaijani town of 7,000 has a proper English WP:COMMONNAME: instead, the high number of news hits seems to depend on whether the place was mentioned in the context of the recent war. For one, Qubadlı was at that location until a successful RM in November, while many other recent RMs failed. In this case, I value WP:CONSISTENCY criterion way over WP:COMMONNAME. No such user (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
      • The fact that a large number of Azerbaijani cities already have anglicized names is enough to show that there is a precedent for this. We can use the non-anglicized version only if the settlement is completely uncovered in English media (e.g. tiny villages) or its non-anglicized version is the common name (like in Gdańsk), per WP:UE. There's absolutely no reason to keep the non-anglicized version when the anglicized name is in common use among English-language media (whatever context its mentioned in is irrelevant to the fact that anglicized name is used more). I'm not sure what "failed" RMs you're referring to, as there haven't been any RMs to anglicize Azeri city names yet, except this one, which should be a starting point for other large cities to also be anglicized if they meet the policy requirements. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 16:20, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Previous RMs and moves and refused TRs

What happened here? This looks like two refused TRs from 10 Feb In ictu oculi (talk) 11:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC) https://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requested_moves/Technical_requests&diff=prev&oldid=1006049799

• @In ictu oculi: The request to move Biləsuvar to Bilasuvar seems to have been rejected, or deleted or moved, at 5:37, 12 February 2021‎ by User:JJMC89 as "Technical requests: related RM ongoing". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 14:08, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

All move requests regarding city name anglicizations were put on hold until RM here is closed. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

6,964 population

@Amakuru: sorry have to register a disagreement with your close. The nom is now going for even smaller settlements in Azerbaijan for "English names" - places that don't register a blip in Lonely Planet. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:56, 10 March 2021 (UTC)