Talk:Shaker

Requested move 22 September 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. B was not as roundly opposed as A and C, but consensus was against it as well. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:09, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

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• Shaker (disambiguation) → Shaker
• Shakers → United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing

– WP:ASTONISH no clear primary topic for either the singular or plural by PT#2 although by PT#1 it would probably be the Christian sect. Bury F.C. which is a PTM though gets more views than the Christian sect, although that's probably because of it being in the news recently. When I Google shaker all but 2 results are for protein shakers. When I Google Shakers the results are similar.

I think both the move of the DAB page to plain "Shakers" and the Christian sect move should both take place but if not I'll provide a list of options below:

• A move the DAB to Shaker and the Christian sect to United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing or some other DABbed title such as Shakers (United States). If you support this in general but disagree with the precise target then please specify such as "Support A but move to X".
• B move the DAB to Shaker as with A but leave the Christian sect at Shakers.
• C move the Christian sect to United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing (or some other DABBed title) and redirect "Shakers" to Shaker (disambiguation) (or create a new DAB at Shakers) but allow "Shaker" to continue to redirect to the Christian sect.
• Oppose it should be left as is with the Christian sect at Shakers and the DAB at Shaker (disambiguation).

Please indicate you're options by putting A, B, C or Oppose per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves/Archive 32#The utility and accuracy of ranked surveys or even list you're preferred outcomes in order such as "B, A, D, C" in which "D" can be used for "Oppose". Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:06, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. The Shakers are a famous and relevant sect historically and have easy claim on primary topic here for both singular and plural. There isn't a Wikipedia article about protein shakers, and if there was it would probably violate Wikipedia is not a dictionary, so it doesn't matter. Google hits on advertised products are not everything. Almost nobody knows what the "United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearing" is and the full name is almost never used, so that is completely out of contention; if Shakers had to move it would be to something more like Shakers (Christian denomination), but per above, it doesn't have to move in the first place. SnowFire (talk) 12:30, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

  Surely those such as Shaker (laboratory), Shaker (instrument) and Shaker (testing device) would be reasonable enough competitors. Note that the Indian Shaker Church is also a Christian denomination though that might not be ambiguous with plain "Shakers". Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:53, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

  The pageviews on those three articles are all an order of magnitude less than Shakers. I don't think they seriously compete via either PT#1 or PT#2. Colin M (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose A and C, the religious group is the clear PT for the plural form by criteria 1 and 2. Leaning support on B The singular is a more tricky case. If you look at pages that link to Shaker, there's an alarmingly high rate of mistargeted links (usually intended for Shaker (instrument)), which I think provides pretty strong support in favour of there being no primary. Colin M (talk) 20:51, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
• Support B per above. No primary topic for the singular. There are often accidental mistargeted links to Shaker that should go to things like Shaker (instrument), so that's more evidence for that. Paintspot Infez (talk) 00:40, 23 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Clearly primary topic. I was initially tempted by "B", but find the singular/plural distinction will be more of a headache than it is worth. Referring to, say, a "Shaker community" or a "Shaker chair" is done in singular rather than in plural. It will require editors to go back to double-check and fix links to make sure all uses of the singular in article text are linked correctly to a plural article. It's really not worth it. Keep both singular and plural linked to "Shakers". Walrasiad (talk) 05:48, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
• I would say I'm WP:ASTONISHed that anyone would expect anything else when they search for shakers. Oppose first one per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and vehemently oppose second for both that and WP:COMMONNAME Red Slash 03:27, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

  Would you? as someone in England I'd never heard of the Christian sect and would expect it to mean something you put items in and shake. And as I noted you can suggest an alternative destination for the Christian sect. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:04, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. B is a possibility, but I think the sect does just about qualify as the primary topic (and I'm English too). We most certainly should not move the sect to a name by which they're almost never known. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:49, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, the plain name for this primary topic; the other name is absurdly obscure, I couldn't even write it down. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:29, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
• OK I think we have a consensus that the Christian sect is primary for "Shakers" but still do we really think its primary for "Shaker"? Would it be a good idea to close part of this and relist? Or just start a RM only proposing the DAB be moved to "Shaker"? Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:27, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

  I don't think you need to make a new request. At no point did you suggest that either proposal was contingent upon the other. I wrote WP:PLURALPT explicitly to allow for these things to not be contingent upon each other. You're fine. If they don't do it this time, feel free to propose the first move again in a few months. (I'll probably oppose, again, but you'll have a more well-reasoned response from more people for sure!) Red Slash 04:08, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 10 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 07:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

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Shaker (disambiguation) → Shaker – No primary topic for the singular[[1]][[2]]. While views show that for titles at "Shaker (foo)" Shakers gets 15,994 views compared with only 2,869 for everything at "Shaker (foo)"[[3]]. Bury F.C. gets more (18,188) and some of the uses like Salt and pepper shakers may have more long-term significance than the religious group for the singular especially since the group currently only has a population of 2, though it is a level 5 vital article. In the 2019 RM I proposed having no primary topic for both singular and plural but there was clearly consensus against the plural however there was some support for the singular and one of the participants suggested starting a new RM for just that in a few months but its now been nearly 2 and a half years. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:55, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nomination. There are 21 entries listed upon the Shaker (disambiguation) page and, while Shaker is indicated at the top as the primary topic, there is no need for it to be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT. Those who, in the course of researching the Christian sect, type "Shaker" rather than "Shakers", will still have immediate access to the link at the top of the dab page. The "Shaker" dab page should resemble the form of Shake dab page, with Shaking redirecting to it. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:36, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 01:32, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support - no primary topic. User:力 (powera, π, ν) 18:24, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
• Support. It's easier to see the logic in this one now two+ years later and now that it's divorced from the move of Shakers itself. Well proposed, @Crouch, Swale:. Red Slash 22:25, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.