Talk:Sason

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I failed to see the relevance of so-called Hamidiyye massacres here. There is a specific page for this topic already, it did not even involve Sason as the previous contributer states in the reference itself, so why is it there?--Murat (talk) 05:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The Hamidian massacres had everything to do with Sason, as you can tell from the Sasun Resistance (1894) article, which clearly corresponds to your 'rebellions'. I suggest you read through both of these articles. Both resistances were clearly responses to Hamid's rather paranoid actions, and the Armenians of Sason were clearly targets of the massacre. The Myotis (talk) 07:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

In fact, the Hamidian Massacres and Sasun resistance both definitely need to be linked directly in this article, considering how undoubtedly important it was in the towns history. We should probably give these there own section. Agree? The Myotis (talk) 17:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

What is actually needed is some more real info on this town. This article, like so many others, should be more appropriately named "Armenian Sasun" maybe, since there is hardly any other aspect covered here. Hamid's paranoid actions? The country was being torn apart, Armenians were giving keys of major cities to Russians, there were plans, well documented in your sources here for a Greater Armenia on lands cleansed of Muslim populations in Anatolia, I would say he had a right to be paranoid.--Murat (talk) 03:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Yes, yes, it was all a great evil Armenian conspiracy, and Turkey is the only country that knows the truth. Now, back to my quest that you so efficiently dodged. These resistances and their provocations, certainly are relevant to the history of the city, so we should incorporate them into this article. And no, it would be silly to pretend it was a different city, or that it needs separate description, just because the native inhabitants were exterminated and replaced with Muslims. There is certainly no precedent for it, and such an article might be labeled a fork. So, anyway, I will go ahead and add some info directly from those articles, in order for the reader to gain a more expanded view of these events. The Myotis (talk) 04:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The rebellions are in the article and mentioned prominantly already. We are not talkig about conspiarcy theories, or theories at all by the way. We have to consider the cold reality of Erzurum, Mus, Van and Bitlis being overrun by Russians and Armenians and Turkish city keys being presented to Russian commanders while the Muslim populations being exterminated. What part of this sounds like theory or paranoia? These little details seem to be always missing from these articles.--Murat (talk) 20:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

At the very least find a reliable source for those outrageous claims, not some turkish pov.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 21:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is the outrageous claim, that Erzurum, Van, Bitlis and Mus were ran over by Russians and Armenians? Not to mention what was going on in the South, Maras etc. at the service of the French, but that is a different thread. Read this very article and others Armenian proagandits have piled up here. No need for other sources. What do you think they did to local Muslim population when they invaded these old Turkish cities with majority Muslim populations (except Van center)? They never told you that, eh?--Murat (talk) 02:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, Murat. Armenians were the loyal millet, but also treacherous, bloodthirsty killers and collaborators with Russians (nevermind the fact that the Russians looked upon Armenian nationalists with suspicion), British, French, Arabs, Persians etc. Hakob (talk) 05:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Those are your words and descriptons, not mine. Armenians were held apart and above from all other millets in the Empire by the way, but that was not enough. You can judge what they did to their country and citizens with Russians yourself right here. This propaganda article actually explains it all. I will be happy with simple truth.--Murat (talk) 03:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

All you seem interested in doing is inserting out-and-out lies into articles, using as "sources" extreme nationalist Turkish propaganda. Little wonder nobody chooses to engage constructively with you. Meowy 22:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You need to do much better than this. What exactly are the lies and untruths? Be careful though, I do know a little about the topic and region. It is ironic that such accusations are thrown around about these whole collection of articles which are themselves a little more than nationalistic Armenian propaganda, hate literature, revsionism at its worst, masquarading as information. There is nothing inserted by this contributer that is not supported by facts and resources. I am only beginning, there is much to be done. You will in time develop some tolerance to reality. It is a good thing.--Murat (talk) 02:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

There are no 6,000 Armenian villages near Sason today! There are not 6,000 villages in the whole of Eastern Turkey probably! There may be one or two Armenian villages in the whole region, and I know of just one near Malatya. It is hard to tell exact numbers because Turkish census does not record ethnicity. What is referred to as Sason "resistance" here is known as "rebellions" in the history of the region. They were the start of the real bad blood between the Ottomans and the Armenian subjects. Hamidiye Alays were formed mainly to counter the increasing Russian-agitated Armenian threat. Sason rebellions were only a significant part of the campaign of terror the Armenian revolutionaries carried out in those decades including an attempt on Sultan's life.--Murat (talk) 07:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

All you seem interested in doing is inserting out-and-out lies into articles, using as "sources" extreme nationalist Turkish propaganda. Little wonder nobody chooses to engage constructively with you.

For those that do make constructive edits, why not try to improve the article! Let's get some data about the culture of the Armenian population, lets get some specifics about the massacres in this region, which were particularly gruesome by all accounts. It would be a nice irony if Hudavendigar's little campaign of lies resulted in an article that is both better and which more clearly exposes those lies for what they are. More skillful propagandists of Hudavendigar's ilk realise that in some articles it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. However, he has chosen to awaken this article, so let's now tear him apart by telling in the article the full horror of the history he wishes to rewrite and whitewash. Meowy 20:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

More vile and threats. I am still waiting for a constructive criticism, an example of so-called lie inserted by me. I have been civilized enough not to remove any material wantonly, not remove content and most edits done here by this user so far have involved no more than a few lines or a reference or two. I have refrained from personal attacks and kept to the facts. Even that little glimpse of truth is too much for the partisan crowd. I know how one can get attached to myths if one's whole identity and culture is based on it, that is why I had left "that dog" alone. Line has to be drawn somewhere though. You can not just bully people who have something to contribute into giving up in disgust and pretend that is ok. If it is a piece of hisotry you care for why not learn a few facts you have been deprived of? Why not make this article a depository of facts and actually improve its quality and make it something other than blatant ethnic propaganda. If you are so sure of your POV and facts, then what exactly are you afraid of, truth? I know, too much to ask.--Murat (talk) 21:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no excuse for Hudavendigar POV editing (except to say that he saw an open goal and who can blame him if he decided to go for it). However, neither is there any excuse for the lamentable lazyness of editors who leave articles like this for years in a state that lets them get exploited by editors like Hudavendigar. Meowy 21:55, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW, regarding the referenced material that you removed, Murat - it said 6000 Armenian villagers, not 6000 Armenian villages. Meowy 23:11, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The details of the two Sasun rebellions are well recorded in local history and media of the time. Even the names of the Russian-Armenian leaders and murderers snet over to forment unrest, details of their actions, where the guns came from, role of the British Consul etc. are well known. We can go into all this here, and if we we need include all facts, but it would be irrelevant and add little to this article. Let me remind once more that it is bad form to remove references and paragraphs just becasue they do not support your nationalistic point of --Murat (talk) 04:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)view, not to mention against wiki policy.--Murat (talk) 19:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You're like a broken record. Stop removing sources and replacing verifiable info with your Turkish fairy tales about rebellions and revolts; people have warned you enough times already and you're still acting like the village idiot.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

You're not learning the lesson, Murat. Trying to insert crude propaganda into articles is just resulting in those articles having greater amounts of material, and better referenced material, that shows your propaganda up for the lie it is. Continue, and someone will dig out the actual published European reports and investigations into the 1894 massacres, and someone may add some accounts of the 1915 massacres in Sasun. You don't want to see that happen. Meowy 16:05, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If there is a problem with any of my referenced and factual edits/inserts, explain here. If you can not help the urge to insert pov edits, then do it without vandalising previous edits but above all search consensus first. It is the right thing to do.--Murat (talk) 04:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Recent edit by Hudavendigar/Murat

Murat has been repeatedly adding the following text into the article: "Sason was the site of two major Armenian revolts against the Ottoman State prior to World War I in 1894 and 1903 which marked the start of serious hostilities between the the Ottoman State and its minority Armenian population, especially in the East where the Russian influence was pervasive and the Armenian insurgents very active".

The 1894 event had already been covered in the article, with neutral sources not calling it a "revolt". The above text is thus adding duplicated material as well as being misleading by implying that it is talking about a different event. I don't know waht "1903" event is being talked about.

I attempted to remove the duplicated material and its POV content and rewrite it thus: "In the context of Armenian Genocide denialist literature, some Turkish sources still hold that the Sasun events of 1893-94 were Armenian revolts against the Ottoman state, incited by Armenian revolutionaries and foreign agents, and that they foreshadowed more serious Armenian rebellions". The cited book, "Ermeni Dosyasi", was written to deny the 1915 Armenian genocide, so it is appropriate to mention the purpose of the source (since it is not a mainstream history book, but one that advocates a marginal and extremist point of view). Meowy 21:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

"In the context of Armenian Genocide denialist literature, .." can only be termed as a pov statement, thus it is a transparent attempt at negating the few relvant facts I entered here. "Ermeni Dosyasi" is more about a detailed history of events, a valuable and recognized source, not a propaganda material as you imply. Sason Rebellions, 1894 AND 1903 are widely mentioned and referenced in countless historical documents (not to mention in wiki) and they were sigficant milestones in Ottoman-Armenian relationship. Stop labeling any reference and source I provide as "nationalistic", or "false", or "not-mainstream", it borders a personal attack.--Murat (talk) 03:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, the burden of proof falls with yourself. Saying something is recognized and not POV will not make it true. Show us these countless references that you have undoubtedly seen with your own eyes. Give us the links, to put it simply. If they truly come from a variety of NPOV sources, we can cite them all, and then adding such information into the article should not be a problem. The Myotis (talk) 03:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the "second Sason" rebellion started toward the end of 1903 and thus continued into 1904, so dates can be confusing - to someone not familiar! Some Armenian sources refer to these rebellions as "Antranik wars", a refernce I had included here, a book in Armenian actually, was rudely removed earlier. You know who Antranik is right? A Russian. You can just imagine what perversion of reality it is when some Armenians still describe these rebellions, including Van rebellion, supported and financed by an enemy state, as "resistance"!--Murat (talk) 04:44, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

A cute little conspiracy theory, but unless you find a good source to back it up, it is just more meaningless noise. Again, nobody is just going to take your word for it. The Myotis (talk) 05:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I am curious, what are you referring to exactly by the "cute conspiracy"?--Murat (talk) 05:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The uncited claims, of course. Alleging that 'reality' has been 'perverted' in particular. The Myotis (talk) 05:22, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

What reality is not cited? Let's be specific and let's keep it to this article and this discussion page.--Murat (talk) 05:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

If you expect to claim in the article that these resistances are AKA the 'Antranik Wars', and that the whole thing was financed by Russia, you will have to provide an NPOV online source. Not just rant about it on the talk page. The Myotis (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I knew you were not equipped to get into detail about any of this. You probably know little about Antranik (actual spelling may differ). Check it out right here, a mostly Armenian created article about this Russian general. Then read here again, the articles on Sasun "reistances" 1894 and 1904, again mostly written by an Armenian pov. Then google Sasun or Van rebellions, you will see hundreds of hits, many of them Armenian. You will also find out about direct Russian military support behind pretty much all of these rebellions. I am happy to be contributing to your education. One should know one's history.--Murat (talk) 05:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Sources are sources. You either have them or you do not. The "You can find them yourself" argument does not excuse you from verifiability rules. Listing links is very easy, assuming the links actually exist.The Myotis (talk) 05:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Murat hasn't answered any of the points I made. He did not respond to my point that his edit added duplicated material. He did not respond to my point that his edit, with its use of POV words like "revolts", contradicted neutral sources already cited in the text. He seems to dispute the fact that "Ermeni Dosyasi" is an example of Turkish-produced Armenian Genocide denialist literature. It is not a "valuable and recognized source" by normal usage of that phrase. Meowy 17:34, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

100K converted to Islam by force in Sasun? Oh yes, this gets better and better! I am waiting for the next installment! This is fiction better than reality better than fiction. Let's see now who are those who are concerned with truth and honesty and objective presentation of real information!--Murat (talk) 18:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

That 100,000 claim was off-topic and misleading, it is not a figure for Sasun alone. I have removed it. Meowy 21:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)