Talk:SS Manasoo

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:14, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

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• Article history

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Manasoo while she was named Macassa

• ... that the freighter Manasoo (pictured) is believed to have been sunk by cows? S90-year-old shipwreck, caused by herd of cows, discovered in Lake Huron
  • ALT1: ... that the wreck of the freighter Manasoo (pictured) was discovered? Shipwreck near Wiarton 'one of the most beautiful'

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Chain Island

Created/expanded by GreatLakesShips (talk). Self-nominated at 20:06, 25 November 2021 (UTC).

• Hook is fine to run as-is without the image (article long enough, new enough, well cited; hook fact is present and directly supported by two refs). Preference for Alt0. Image is listed as PD in Canada but would need to demonstrate that it is also free for use in the US as well—if this is the case then it should be fine to include but a date of first publication should be clarified to see if it's kosher for the main page. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 21:02, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Grapple X: I wasn't able to find anything about the image, so I replaced it with a postcard. GreatLakesShips (talk) 19:03, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

New image looks good, license is appropriate. Would be fine to run with this. ᵹʀᴀᴘᴘʟᴇ ꭗ 19:07, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

ALT0 to T:DYK/P6 without image

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:SS Manasoo/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Usernameunique (talk · contribs) 07:05, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Lead

• "During this time" — During what time? Not all of 1888 to 1926, surely.

Changed to "During this time, she mainly carried passengers between Hamilton and Toronto, Ontario".

• "she mainly operated between Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, and Owen Sound, Ontario." — When?

Sorted.

• With the second paragraph, you might start by mentioning that the ship had begun to take on special commissions—which would explain why cattle were on board.

Modified sentence.

• "Sixteen people died when Manasoo sank." — One of these is McCutcheon, right? If so, it's not fully correct to say 16 died when Manasoo sank, since he died after.

Changed to "Sixteen people died in the wreck".

Infobox

• "2 × fixed pitch propellers" — Not mentioned in body of article.

Added.

Design and construction

• Is the Hamilton Steamboat Company worth a red link? Tunis Bruce Griffith? William Kemp? Burnett & Company?

Probably not.

• What does "Hull number 64" mean?

Linked to corresponding page.

• Who was E. B. Hamilton?

Unknown. Removed from sentence.

• Her hull was 155 feet (47.2 m) (one source states 154.45 feet (47.1 m)) long, while another states she had an overall length of 166 feet (50.6 m) — This sentence has some problems. Parens in the wrong spots, etc. Also, here and later in the paragraph, the differing sources are really just footnote material. How about dropping a footnote towards the end of the paragraph giving the differing measurements?

Added footnote.

Service history

• Can this be broken into subsections?

Done.

• Overall, this section feels fairly disconnected. Can more details be given on what she was used for/what her routes were, so the event-by-event narrative is a bit less jarring?
• Three consecutive sentences beginning with "She" in the first paragraph.

Sorted.

• "She was engaged in the passenger trade between Hamilton and Toronto, Ontario" — When?

Changed to "For most of her career, she was engaged in the passenger trade between Hamilton and Toronto, Ontario

• Should be "39-mile (62.8 km) trip", not "39 miles (62.8 km) trip". There are various parameters in the template that can do this.

I don't know how to do this.

• Why did her gross/net tonnage decrease (and so considerably for her net tonnage)?

The most frequently used source even says they "have no idea how MACASSA's tonnage could have decreased when she was lengthened by 23 feet".

• "Macassa was damaged in March 1906, in Port Dalhousie" — How? What was the result? Was she repaired?

The source says nothing other than the was damaged.

• "She was used as the official boat for the Wrigley Marathon Swim" — What does this mean?

I assume she was used to escort the contestants, but the source doesn't elaborate.

• "After her rebuild, she was licensed to carry 70 passengers." — But wasn't she licensed to carry 536 before?

This might be because before the rebuild, she didn't have any sleeping quarters.

• "Manasoo carried ... miscellaneous freight." — Any more information on this, which is not mentioned elsewhere?

Changed to "various different types of freight".

Final voyage

• "After a lucrative season" — When?

Added year in the sentence.

• Any more information on John Ross McKay? Worth a red link?

Not notable.

• "she loaded 18 more cows" — You say "18 more cows", but haven't mentioned any before.

Changed sentence.

• Was Wallace considered a passenger? Who was the other one?

He was. The other passenger was Thomas Lambert

• "McCutcheon eventually died of exposure" — Any idea how long into the ordeal that was?

Only the overall time spent on the raft is known.

Discovery

• "It was rumoured" — By whom? Details?

Changed to "It was rumoured that Manasoo had previously been discovered by a diver resting in 150 feet (45.7 m) of water, 0.5 miles (0.8 km) from shore".

• "previously" — When?

Date not stated in the source.

• "He had found a newspaper account published in 1928, which stated that Manasoo's wreck had been located a few weeks after she sank" — Is this the rumor mentioned above?

Not likely. Neither source which mentions the newspaper account specifies which newspaper it was published in.

• Pictures would be nice. Merryman's email address is here if you feel like reaching out.

Uploaded a fair use 3D image of the wreck.

@Usernameunique: All done. GreatLakesShips (talk) 17:31, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, GreatLakesShips. Finished the review. As noted in the other one, please respond individually to the comments. --Usernameunique (talk) 19:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: The points have been addressed

Status query

Usernameunique, GreatLakesShips, where does this review stand? There doesn't appear to be anything posted here or to the article since 30 January. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:31, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: No idea where it stands. I have done all I can regarding Usernameunique's points. Same with the other one. GreatLakesShips (talk) 13:54, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion requested in the hopes of finding reviewer to take over

Regrettably, Usernameunique has been inactive for a while and although they have replied to queries, they have twice failed to resume reviewing on the schedule they themselves proposed. The nomination status has been changed to "2nd opinion" in the hopes of finding a new reviewer to take over the review. Thank you to whoever steps up. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll get to this in the next few days. Ealdgyth (talk) 01:30, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion

Before I dive deeper into this - we're going to have to discuss the use of Maritime History of the Great Lakes as a source. This looks to be a personal website of a hobbyist - what makes it a reliable source? Also steamboat stories has the same issues. Ealdgyth (talk) 17:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

@GreatLakesShips: Anything? Ealdgyth (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for the late response. The site compiles old newspaper reports, and receives contributions from well know Great Lakes historians, such as Brendon Baillod and David Swayze. I have also used this source in a featured article, where no issues were found in the source review. As for the steamboat stories website, it also compiles information from several newspapers, libraries, etc. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 16:53, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I had .. toddler grandchildren visiting. I'm not sure that I would consider this source reliable. If you're citing news reports, you should cite those directly. Otherwise, it looks like a self-published site to me, and thus not reliable. -- Ealdgyth (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm very sorry for replying so late. Currently I am on holiday and don't have access to a computer. I will take a closer look at how to resolve the issue in a week when I am back. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 08:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Ealdgyth: I think MHGL can be considered a reliable source. The website's manager, Walter Lewis, has written papers for The Northern Mariner ([1][2]), the Ontario Historical Society ([3]) and the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes ([4][5]). I can't really make the same case for Steamboatstories, other than it being an amalgam of multiple reliable sources. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 23:56, 2 September 2022 (TC)

I'm ... not able to devote the time necessary to this as it's getting into the time of year when my work outside wikipedia enters a crunch phase until mid-November. @BlueMoonset: - we can leave up the second opinion or close this - I'm not convinced of the reliablity of the two sites and I don't have the time to get into a long back and forth. If pressed, I'd fail the review because of the RS issues with the two sites, but I'd rather that someone else picks it up and helps get the article into shape. It just can't be me because I will be mostly absent for at least 2.5 months, if not more. Ealdgyth (talk) 12:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I responded to an identical request at the GA for PS Keystone State, so pasting the same response here: Ealdgyth, Usernameunique, I saw the second opinion request and agree with Ealdgyth that we would need more evidence that the source is reliable. The "click here to contribute" link does not inspire confidence, for example, though admittedly that's just images. I see that contributors have produced reliable material elsewhere, but what would help most is evidence that reliable sources on this topic treat this site as reliable. I see Usernameunique hasn't edited in a few months, but his last contribution indicates he's busy, not retired, so I'll leave this for a week before doing anything further. Or Ealdgyth, given the second opinion, you may want to just fail it now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:13, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, sorry, also meant to ping you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:05, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, since it looks like we're wrapping up at PS Keystone State, just a note to say let me know when you're ready for me to take another look at this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I'm sorry I haven't been able to do much with this article yet. I've been quite depressed for the last few days and haven't really been able to take a deep dive into the sources, although I think I can have it done this week. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 00:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to hear it; hope you feel more positive soon. Absolutely no pressure to get this done. Just let me know when you’re up to tackling it again. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:45, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, apologies for dropping off without warning, and for leaving this to stagnate as a result. Also, hope you're feeling better. As for Maritime History of the Great Lakes, it's clearly not the ideal source, but that doesn't make it per se unreliable. As used, it's not a self-published source—that is, a source "in which the author and publisher are the same." Rather, its a compilation of third-party sources, which no one above appears to question the reliability of. Cite 16 in the article (link), for example, is a transcription of a 1905 article from the Buffalo Evening News. The same article appears in original form here, and is substantively identical. (The only differences are that the website mistypes "lengthened" as "lenthened," drops the "(special)," and gives "Macassa" the all-caps treatment.) It would be preferable to locate and cite the sources themselves, but—if needed as an alternative—I don't see an issue with citing the sources as thet appear at Maritime History of the Great Lakes. On the other hand, Steamboat Stories is less convincing, as it appears to distill (rather than republish) sources. It looks like the information it contains could be largely cited to different sources; looking at articles on newspapers.com, for example, shows a number of detailed contemporaneous news articles. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:23, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, Usernameunique, glad to see you back editing again. You're right about newspapers.com -- GreatLakesShips was able to get PS Keystone State to GA by using newspapers.com and eliminating the amateur websites, and I would expect the same thing is possible here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:11, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I had a French exam today, which left me unable to do any meaningful work on the article. I don't have anything this week, so I'll be able to do it. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 15:58, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

It was quite a bit of work for PS Keystone State and I would think it might take you a while here too -- finding and clipping each newspapers.com article can be slow. I'll keep an eye on the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:15, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've replaced the MHGL sources with Newspapers ones. Now all that I need to do is work on the issue of steamboatstories. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 19:53, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Glad to see you're making progress. Let me know when you're done and I'll take a look through. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:39, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

UTC)

Looks like MHGL is still used as refs 10 and 27? --Usernameunique (talk) 16:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, just checking in to see how this is going? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: At present I am unable to do any large scale editing, but I will be able to resume editing from the 4th onward. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 00:53, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, checking in -- are you expecting to be able to work on this soon? What's left to do? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:27, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

It's been a year. I think it's well past time we fail this nomination. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:46, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

The nomination had a perfect storm of bad luck with reviewers pulling out; there were actually two nominations in this state and the nominator got the other one over the line. I'll give them another ping shortly and if that gets no response I'll fail it. A great deal of the delay is not their fault so I want to be generous with time. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 04:21, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

GreatLakesShips, any progress? I'm going to fail this shortly if there's no movement. If that happens and you do get around to working on the article again, let me know if you renominate and I'll try to pick it up for review quickly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:15, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: This will be the death of me. I will get this done by this weekend, and after that, I'll disappear for a while. Right now choosing between Wikipedia and school would be an easy choice, but unfortunately I need to study; if I need to do even more work, it genuinely might kill me. I feel so burned out, tired and stressed. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 20:21, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Studying is more important. I suggest we fail this now, to take it off your to-do list. Then when you have the time and energy, with no time pressure, you can let me know. I promise I'll review it quickly. That would be much less stress for you. What do you think? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:23, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: After this week ends, my load will lighten significantly. I don't have any exams, and most of my teachers are busy with other things, so I don't need to do nearly as much studying. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 21:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

OK, that's fine. I'll check in again next week. Best of luck with the studying. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

No more edits in over a week. I am going to fail this; GreatLakesShips, when you get time to work on this and are ready to renominate it I will do my best to review it quickly so you don't have to wait another year. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:27, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: With the holidays coming up, I find myself with enough time and energy to finish this one. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 14:42, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've listed it again. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 14:02, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:SS Manasoo/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 16:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Earwig finds nothing but short unavoidable phrases. Images are suitably licensed and I think the sources are fine. The wreck image has a reasonable FUR.

• FN 26 doesn't link to a source. Citations don't have to formatted well for a GA, but I can't tell which of the Windsor Star sources this is meant to link to.

Done.

• "She was built in 1888 in Port Glasgow, Scotland, by William Hamilton & Company for the Hamilton Steamboat Company of Hamilton, Ontario. During this time, she mainly carried passengers between Hamilton and Toronto, Ontario." The phrase "during this time" is meant to refer to the time working for the Hamilton Steamboat Company but it sounds like it doesn't refer to anything since we haven't given an end date. I think it would be better to make this clearer: perhaps "She was built in 1888 in Port Glasgow, Scotland, by William Hamilton & Company for the Hamilton Steamboat Company of Hamilton, Ontario, who used her as a passenger transport between Hamilton and Toronto, Ontario."

Done.

• "She made a 39-mile (62.8 km) trip between Burlington and Port Dalhousie, Ontario, on April 6, 1894, in an hour and fifty minutes." I assume we're mentioning this because it's impressive; does the source make it clear that that's the case? If so can we add that? If it doesn't, are there other sources that could be used to show this is a fast trip?

I checked Newspapers with the phrase "Macassa Burlington", "Macassa Hamilton" and "Macassa 1/one hour and 50/fifty minutes", and nothing relating to this time being impressive is mentioned. I'm assuming this one needs to be removed.

No, I think it can stay; it might not survive FAC without explanation though. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

• "By 2:00 a.m. the next day, Manasoo had begun to list to port. Captain McKay eventually decided to beach Manasoo on nearby Griffith Island.[28][29] Eventually, Manasoo's starboard bilge lifted out of the water, causing water to leak in through gangways and other openings." Can we avoid the two uses of "eventually"?

Done.

That's it for the prose. I'll do spotchecks next. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've done most of these, with the exception of the 3rd point. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 02:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

All looks good. Spotchecks below. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Spotchecks. FN numbers refer to this version.

• FN 5 cites "Her main deck was completely enclosed, while her promenade deck was almost completely open, save for a small cabin. She had a single tall mast located forward of her pilothouse." The source has "Her main deck was entirely enclosed but the promenade deck was almost completely open, there being only a small cabin which provided little shelter." This is too closely paraphrased.
• FNs 5 & 18 cite "In the winter of 1927, Macassa was sold to the Owen Sound Transportation Company of Owen Sound, Ontario, and was rebuilt as a nightboat in Toronto." Verified.
• FN 27 cites "It was rumoured that Manasoo had previously been discovered by a diver resting in 150 feet (45.7 m) of water, 0.5 miles (0.8 km) from shore." Verified.

Once you've fixed the first one, I'll check a couple since spotchecks have to come up clean to pass GA. (That's a fairly recent change to the GA rules.) So you might want to go through and just check you don't have paraphrasing issues elsewhere in the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:52, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: I've fixed the sentence, and I've gone through a few sources. I haven't seen any other close paraphrasing that might merit attention. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 05:23, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

That looks good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

More spotchecks -- footnote numbers now refer to this version.

• FNs 4, 5, 6, and 12 cite "Early in her career, she also stopped at Lorne Park, Oakville and Burlington Beach, Ontario." Verified from FN 5.
• FN 19 cites "Macassa was renamed Manasoo, a combination of Manitoulin Island and Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario." Verified.
• FN 6 cites "Macassa's trip across the Atlantic Ocean took 15 days, as ice slowed her progress." The source describes the plan for the trip, not the trip itself. Is this cited to the wrong source?

One to fix again, I'm afraid; I'll do some more checks once that's fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: That one was a mistake on my part. I've changed the sentence to "Newspapers in 1888 speculated that Macassa would arrive at her destination on around June 1".

Fix is good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

More spotchecks -- footnote numbers now refer to this version. I'm doing six this time to be on the safe side as there were problems in both previous passes.

• FNs 1 & 2 cite "It would not be until 1889, however, that the first steel-hulled Canadian ship, Manitoba, was built on the Great Lakes." Verified.
• FN 4 cites "Macassa was clinker built." Verified.
• FN 5 cites "After entering service in May, she mainly operated between Sault Ste. Marie and Owen Sound, via the North Channel. Manasoo carried passengers and various types of freight." Verified.
• FN 17 cites "On September 19, 1906, a deckhand on board Macassa lost his foot after it became entangled in a mooring line while she was in Hamilton." Verified.
• FNs 4 & 5 cite "In 1911, the Hamilton Steamboat Company merged into the Niagara Navigation Company, a company that operated passenger ships between Toronto and various Niagara River ports." Verified; a bit of repetition of the original phrasing but it's not something easy to rephrase.
• FN 23 cites "Cowman Donald Wallace of Oil Springs, Ontario, and his friend Thomas Lambert (also of Oil Springs) drove to Owen Sound, where they boarded Manasoo." Verified.

All these are good, so I'm passing this. Congratulations on getting this done after so long a wait! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:22, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mike Christie: Thank you so much for taking the time to help me! This year has been very tough for me. I haven't been able to do much writing, and this one has been niggling at me for a very long time. GreatLakesShips 🤘 (talk - contribs) 20:46, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

A pleasure! Glad to see this one make it over the line. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:10, 28 July 2023 (UTC)