Talk:Roulettes

File:Roulettes flying in formation.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Roulettes flying in formation.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on September 15, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-09-15. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {chat} 21:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Picture of the day

The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) Roulettes aerobatics squadron at the 2008 Australian Grand Prix. The squad was formed in 1970 to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the RAAF and perform about 150 flying displays a year throughout Australia and neighboring countries.Photo: Fir0002

Other RAAF teams

See http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Transcripts/s1095478.htm for a little of the broader history. The accident which took the lives of the Red Sails is particularly noteworthy, and should be documented somewhere in Wikipedia (despite the understandable reluctance of the RAAF to talk about it). Andrewa (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 28 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a reasonable argument that the current setup WP:AINT broken. In any case, there is no consensus for the proposed move, or any alternative setup. No such user (talk) 09:51, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

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Roulettes → Roulettes (aerobatics) – the clear primary topic for "roulettes" is as the plural of roulette. In a search of Gbooks (which concentrates reliable sources, per WP:AT), the aerobatics team has very few hits. The bare title "roulettes" should be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to roulette. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:59, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

• Disambiguate Roulette doesn't appear to be a countable noun (most Google results aren't for it) and "Roulettes" doesn't appear once in that article however there is Roulette (curve) (which is a countable noun) which gets 947 views and The Roulettes that gets 401 views compared to 346 for this article[[1]]. Probably redirect to Roulette (disambiguation) but a plural DAB page could be created. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:PRECISE. This is the only article using the precise title. As mentioned, roulette is not usually pluralized. Just add Roulette (curve) and/or Roulette (disambiguation) to the hatnote. Station1 (talk) 18:09, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

  Roulette (curve) is also likely a title match and The Roulettes is potentially one and as noted both of those get more views. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:33, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

  There's no reason to believe large numbers of readers are searching for those articles or expect to find them under "Roulettes". But I agree they are worthy of a hatnote and/or dab page listing for the benefit of the minority. Station1 (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

  I agree the other uses individually are less likely to be searched for than this under this term but I'm not convinced that this meets the criteria of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, it might meet the 1st but its highly unlikely to meet the 2nd. In this case we should probably disambiguate which would mean that no hatnotes are needed and every article is 1 click away for every reader per WP:NOPRIMARY. Note that the unqualified title for the category Category:Roulettes (which should also probably be disambiguated) is indeed for Roulette (curve) Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:30, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

  If every article were 1 click away for every reader, it would mean the majority of readers would be 1 click further away than they are now, while those looking for The Roulettes would be no better off. Station1 (talk) 21:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

  But there isn't a primary topic (WP:NOPRIMARY) and there are more than just 2 articles anyway. I would note that Google results are mixed between the aerobatics and the band. Additionally the casino meaning shows up in ads at the bottom. Images mainly returns wheels (which doesn't appear to relate to an article here) and Books appears to be split between the casino and curve meanings. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

  This has nothing to do with primary topics. There's no primary topic between pears and bananas but that's irrelevant because they are different topics with different article titles. Roulettes, The Roulettes, roulette and roulette (curve) are all unrelated topics with different titles that can happily co-exist as they are. For the few people who might possibly be confused, hatnotes are sufficient. There's simply no problem here that requires any kind of solution. Station1 (talk) 06:24, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

  Pears and bananas are 2 completely different topics with completely different names, "Roulettes" is a homograph in that it can refer to at least to different topics and judging by the page views, Google and long-term significance there's no clear primary topic for this term. WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT says that a topic can be primary for more than 1 title and WP:NOPRIMARY says that even if there are just 2 ambiguous topic and none is primary that the reader should be taken to the DAB page. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:11, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

  Just like pears and bananas, Roulettes, The Roulettes, and roulette, are different topics with different names; just not as obviously different. The only time primary topic comes into play is between roulette and roulette (curve), because those are different topics that have identical names; we must choose a primary topic between those two, but we are not required to choose a primary topic among non-identical titles, and I see no compelling reason to do so in this case. Station1 (talk) 18:53, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

  They're different topics but the names overlap, in the same way for example Gasoline and Petrol are different names for the same thing, "roulettes" can be the name for the band and the curve and possibly the casino term. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:44, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

@Station1, your objection is invalid. See WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT:

The fact that an article has a different title is not a factor in determining whether a topic is primary

. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 05:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I've already cited policy and explained how this move would be a net detriment to WP, however slight. Perhaps you could explain why you believe it would be a net benefit. Station1 (talk) 07:01, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can see the only policy that you have cited is PRECISE which tells us that usually "unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that" the current title likely doesn't since there are other topics that need the title to (per (PRIMARYREDIRECT) similar to the fact that there are several articles titled "Libel" (such as the film) but "the article at Defamation is still the primary topic for that title and the film must be disambiguated". In this case the other topics listed on the DAB page likely prevent this one from being primary but there probably isn't a primary topic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 07:57, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

• Strong support per Gbooks "roulettes are" test. @BrownHairedGirl: you are wasting your time - Station1 has been disruptively opposing titling policy on endless RMs for years. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  Just for the record, I support the policies at WP:AT and WP:NPA. - Station1 (talk) 19:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment This is a strange page requested move because, on the one hand, I do agree with BrownHairedGirl that Roulette is clearly the primary topic, but I also can't think of the casino game being a countable noun as Crouch, Swale's analysis ellucidates. We also have The Roulettes, a '60s era British rock band, which gets roughly equal views to Roulettes, the Royal Australian Air Force aerial acrobatic squadron. Looking at the Roulettes' (the RAAF squadron) website, they appear to be known commonly as The Roulettes not simply Roulettes. So, I do think this page is mistitled. I'm not certain whether to disambiguate as a separate plural disambiguation page or redirect to Roulette (disambiguation), but do think there's no real clear primary topic for The Roulettes either. Perhaps we should move Roulettes to The Roulettes (aerobatics), similar to BrownHairedGirl's suggestion, and then move The Roulettes to The Roulettes (band). We could then decide how to handle The Roulettes and Roulettes in terms of disambiguation? Dmehus (talk) 14:40, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  Reliable sources call the teams "Air Force Roulettes" or "RAAF Roulettes". When "the Roulettes" appears in running text, "the" is not capitalized, and when used in headlines and captions, just "Roulettes" is used.[2] [3] [4] So "The Roulettes" does not appear to be an appropriate title for this article, per WP:THE. Station1 (talk) 19:29, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  WP:PLURALPT gives examples of Times, Papers and Oranges where in the 1st and 2nd case they redirect to Time (disambiguation) and Paper (disambiguation) and in the 3rd the plural redirects to the fruit because the colour is normally uncountable. Given as noted there are several uses and none appears to be primary I'd go with no primary even though it could redirect to Roulette (curve) per the Oranges example. In addition to potentially reviewing the title of the band maybe we could move this to Air Force Roulettes as noted per above per WP:NATURAL? WP:DABCOMBINE seems to suggest if there is an overlap between the terms (meaning the terms are often used interchangeably) then a singular DAB makes sense which I think is the case here and if the band is moved then "The Roulettes" should also redirect to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Interesting discussion that of course misses the point IMO. See User talk:Andrewa/P T examples and scenarios#Plurals and comments there welcome. Andrewa (talk) 07:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Move to Roulettes (aerobatic team) per the majority of other disambiguated titles at Category:Aerobatic teams. (The only other contender I see there is "demonstration team"). As for the primary topic, I don't think there is one. My slight preference would be to make a new disambiguation page at Roulettes, listing this article as well as Roulette (curve) and The Roulettes, with a "see also" for Roulette (disambiguation). But otherwise just redirect straight to Roulette (disambiguation). Per Crouch, Swale, the game roulette is not countable so is not really a contender for the plural form.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:30, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The proposed retargeting seems unlikely and the current usage seems fine. Leave well alone. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:48, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

  @Andrew Davidson: I agree the retargeting to roulette is unlikely, but what of The Roulettes? Are they a plausible target for this title? Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 23:16, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

  And Roulette (curve) per WP:PLURALPT. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:59, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

  The Roulettes are a group that stopped performing over 60 years ago and weren't famous even then. The display team is an active national institution which still performs over a hundred times each year. That's no contest. The plural of the curve has a better case but anyone searching for that is probably going to use the keyword word "curve" too, to avoid the gambling game. My !vote stands – it's simplest and best to do nothing. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

  Given the split in page views and long-term significance (of the curve) I'd still suggest disambiguation is best. Someone might use the plural to avoid the gambling name like Orange/Oranges. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:47, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Anyone searching with roulettes is likely seeking this article. Even if they're looking for The Roulettes, the hatnote link here taking them to their sought article in one more click means they would be no better off landing on a dab page, and those seeking this page are much better off landing directly on the page they seek rather than on a godforsaken dab page. And, as others have noted, redirecting Roulettes to the non-countable Roulette makes no sense whatsoever. Nobody benefits from this proposed move. Nobody. --В²C ☎ 17:06, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

  There probably most likely but WP:PRIMARYTOPIC requires more than that. I agree retargeting to the uncountable Roulette makes no sense and would help (almost) no one but its most helpful to take readers to the DAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

• ATTENTION we have seen some poor non-admin closes in the last couple of weeks, one of which murder in Texas is at move review right now. Would encourage non-admins to think carefully before making a close on this RM that does not take into account the "roulettes are" test in GBooks. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
  • You made out point already, must you spam this page? Calidum 08:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
    • I think that there's consensus that this term shouldn't redirect to Roulette but its less clear about my alternative suggestion of disambiguating instead. That probably requires further consideration, maybe a new RM should be started at some point to do that rather than redirecting to the game which I agree doesn't make much sense. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose "Roulettes" is certainly sometimes used as a plural for a game, but it is not usually seen as a countable noun. Therefore in this case the current title is most helpful for the readers and the logic behind WP:PLURALPT can apply.--Yaksar (let's chat) 06:39, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. As others I have said, this is a case where a reader searching for the plural form will undoubtedly be seeking this topic. Calidum 08:21, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
• Maybe this should be relisted (or a new RM stared) with a proposal to have "Roulettes" pointing to the DAB rather than redirecting to Roulette. I think most people have disagreed with redirecting to Roulette but as I have shown its unlikely that the aerobatics meaning is likely not the primary topic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:35, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• I think people have made pretty clear that the opposition is to moving the subject page from the primary topic, not that they would instead want the base name to redirect to the DAB.--Yaksar (let's chat) 13:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Not really, you're comment suggests it shouldn't redirect to the game because indeed that topic isn't usually countable. What you don't appear to have taken into account is topics like the curve and the band which do use the term "Roulettes". The logic is similar to the Paper/Papers and Orange/Oranges examples at PLURALPT in that the curve is a contender for the plural form. That's why there should be no primary topic for this term. Also the "strong support" !vote isn't clear about if the game should be primary of if only this topic isn't primary. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Totally fair, but I believe mine may be the only oppose !vote expressing that ambiguity (and if it clears that up, I think the plural with a hatnote provides suitable disambiguation there).--Yaksar (let's chat) 16:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.