Talk:Right-wing populism

"Fascism", again?

I would like to understand why in many pages on right-wing ideologies there are one or more references to fascism; for those who know the true meaning of fascism (the Italians, having experienced it), this is very strange. In particular, in the definition section there's a quote comparing right-wing populism with fascism; to me this doesn't seem like a good move, but I leave the word to other users. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:02, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Fascism is a right-wing populist ideology. Simonm223 (talk) 00:42, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223: in reality, it's much more complicated than what you wrote. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:50, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

No. It is not. Simonm223 (talk) 00:51, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223: right-wing populism isn't necessarily fascist.

Fascism is an authoritarian and totalitarian ideology that seeks to establish a dictatorial government with absolute control over all aspects of society. It often promotes extreme nationalism, racial supremacy, and the suppression of political opposition through violence and censorship.

Right-wing populism tends to be more moderate than fascism and typically focuses on anti-globalization, anti-immigration, and economic protectionism. It's more about appealing to the sentiments of the populace and challenging traditional political elites without necessarily seeking a totalitarian regime. JacktheBrown (talk) 04:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

This is a whales and dolphins situation. Fascism is right-wing populism but not all right-wing populists are necessarily fascists. Simonm223 (talk) 12:22, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Populism in general attempts to rally dissatisfied or marginalized people against the status quo and the perceived elite which they blame for it. The suppression of opposition tends to become an issue only after a populist movement comes to power. These movements do not necessarily aim at creating a totalitarian state, but they use similar tactics to obtain support. Dimadick (talk) 13:30, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@Dimadick: "These movements do not necessarily aim at creating a totalitarian state, but they use similar tactics to obtain support." Exactly, unfortunately some users are slightly confused about the difference between right-wing populism and fascism (sometimes more than "slightly confused"; I'm not referring to Simonm223). JacktheBrown (talk) 17:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrownyou have not made a case here to remove that material. Simonm223 (talk) 12:46, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, this is unnecessary slandering of the right, the tone used in this article is ridiculously negative instead of impartial, and the comparison to fascism is akin to comparing progressivism/wokeism to Juche or the Khmer Rouge, which in all fairness might be a fair comparison, but I digress. That being said, Wikipedia is inherently biased toward the left, like most mainstream media is, so there's not much we can do. Ztimes3 (talk) 11:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

@Simonm223: then let's discuss it. JacktheBrown (talk) 12:55, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

As I mentioned previously, fascism is best described a sub-set of right-wing populism. An academic description of that relationship is absolutely apropos. The two excluded quotes are both precisely that - academic accounts of the relationship between fascism and right-wing populism. Your removal appears to amount to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Simonm223 (talk) 12:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Simonm223: it's not that I don't like this dubious description, it's that it's out of place to refer to fascism on this page (but if Trump is portrayed by some academics as a fascist, then it's not surprising...). JacktheBrown (talk) 13:12, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

No, this is what I, and Dimadick both told you. The relationship between right wing populism and fascism is significant and well-commented upon within academia. This has nothing to do with "orangemanbad" POVs or anything like that. It's simply the case that the reputable academic consensus treats fascism and right-wing populism as interrelated.

If anything, the very lively academic discussion of Trump has demonstrated that these interconnections are both real and quite nuanced with the majority academic position being that, while it's somewhat irrelevant to ask "is Trump a fascist", it is very much the case that Trumpism shares ideological traits with fascism and acts as a big tent into which fascists can enter mainstream politics. For example remember that Nick Fuentes was able to get time with Trump. This is all something of an argumentative cul-de-sac. This article is not about Donald Trump but is rather about a broad category of political ideology that includes fascism and Trumpism within it. Simonm223 (talk) 13:21, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Citations about that are in great majority sociologists and political acientists that are openly left wing.

It's funny how the article basically claims that the populist right wing are racists that don't want any immigrants, when I have almost never heard this claim from any european politician. Reducing an immigration that has been increasing a lot in volume is not racist.

Prefering to regularise refugees over competent migrants is a choice, and mostly unfair by these migrants that do everything by the book. 79.117.76.165 (talk) 10:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

IP are you a new participant or did you forget to log in? Simonm223 (talk) 13:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

IP has referred to important issues; illegal immigration is completely wrong. Please give them more respect. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

IP is saying precisely your argument - I was wondering if you'd forgotten to log in. The IP's personal opinion about whether anti-immigrant rhetoric is de-facto racist is entirely irrelevant to this conversation and they show no understanding of WP:NPOV - the assumed politics of sociologists and political scientists is not at all relevant to their use as sources. You are, of course, welcome to present novel reliable sources that provide a dissenting view for us to review. Simonm223 (talk) 18:30, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

The rest of the IP's statement is firmly within WP:NOTFORUM. Simonm223 (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Users of this encyclopaedia know my opinion on this topic, which isn't the same as the IP (I've never hidden myself behind an IP); IP has referred to very important issues, although they could have expressed themselves better, without attacking. JacktheBrown (talk) 19:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

While the two ideologies may not be the same, sources tend to group them together as ideologies to the right of traditional political parties. The main difference is that populists claim adherence to democratic institutions, but there are numerous similarities such as charismatic leadership, scapegoating, conspiracism, and nativism. TFD (talk) 13:41, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

@The Four Deuces: "While the two ideologies may not be the same, sources tend to group them together as ideologies to the right of traditional political parties." This is because most of the reliable sources in this encyclopedia are notoriously, although fortunately not seriously, left-wing. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:38, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Different articles for "right-wing populism" vs "national populism"? (+ Bolsonaro or Modi would be a better article image than Milei)

Should "right-wing populism" and "national populism" have separate pages? Javier Milei and Trump/Kaczyński/Orbán/Meloni are obviously very aligned on the left-right spectrum, but if term even roughly synonymous with "nationalist" includes someone as Javier Milei, an anarcho-capitalist, something needs to be seriously edited.

(In addition, I think Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil or Narendra Modi of India is a far better fit among the other four in the title image. Again, Milei is very much aligned with Trump/Kaczyński/Orbán/Meloni (and Bolsonaro/Modi) in terms of right-wingness, but I reiterate my earlier point about nationalism/Milei's ultra-libertarianism.) 49.204.117.133 (talk) 11:36, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

No. Because what you've said above is a fantasy unsupported by reliable sources. Seriously, no reliable sources suggest Trump or Orbán is left-wing and your misinterpretation of Anarcho-capitalism is also unsupported by RS. Simonm223 (talk) 12:53, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

First person here (in a different country now). You've misunderstood my point. Milei, Trump, Orbán, and the rest of the names mentioned are all very much right-wingers. What I was saying is that Milei, because of his ideology, wants to get rid of government entirely, and the rest of them, because of their ideology, have generally expanded the role of government since they've taken office.

All of the people in the image are right-wing populists, but I think the type of right-wing populism that makes you want to expand the role of government and the type of right-wing populism that makes you want to get rid of government entirely are two distinct things and should be labelled as such.

Looking back, removing Milei from this article's image was unnecessary, but I still believe we should give "national populism" its own article and distinguish it from Milei's style of right-wing populism. 49.204.143.191 (talk) 17:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have reliable sources that would make such a distinction or is this WP:OR? Simonm223 (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)