Talk:Post-it note/Archives/2014

History

As it stands, the "History" of Post-it(R) Notes is mainly gibberish after the first few sentences. The original repositionable adhesive, based on elastomeric microspheres made by dispersion polymerization was patented by Spence Silver at 3M (US patent 3,691,140). It is clear from the patent specification that his original intention was to make an adhesive the could be applied by spraying, rather than a repositionable adhesive. The first significant use of the adhesive was to make sticky bulletin boards before its use in Post-it(R)Notes which was indeed pioneered by Art Fry.

I tried to further correct the historical account, adding dates and removing, for example, unsourced allegations that Spencer "stumbled upon" a glue that didn't work.--Kaicarver 18:52, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge, there is no truth whatever and I have seen no documentation whatever in regards to the allegation that any party was owed royalties or somehow slighted, or that any royalty agreement was established with any party in the early days of Post-it(R) Note history. This appears to be pure gibberish. An allegation of a verbal agreement "in the main" relayed by intermediaries? I have no idea what that even means, and I doubt the writer does either.

At various times between 1986 and 1997 I attended trade shows and FOP shows for 3M's office supplies division, and many people at various times came up at our booth and claimed that they had invented Post it notes. The inventor, Art Fry, who often went to these shows too, personally mentioned to me in the past that many many people had come up to him at various times stating that they had had the idea first, that they had somehow invented it, or whatever. Art told me that he usually asked them to tell him the story of what they did with the idea, that he'd love to hear about it, and wonders why they gave up on the idea? Normally they would mumble something like "well, I didn't do anything with the idea but I wish I had..." and that's the end of it.

Surely some Roman soldier somewhere 1400 years ago stuck a wad of pine pitch onto the back of a scrap of sheepskin and stuck it on the back of his chariot as a reminder and invented a sticky piece of paper. The idea of taping up a piece of paper is as old as tape itself. The real magic was in the particular kind of adhesive that was used.

- a 20-year 3M employee

I agree with "20-year". Before 3M invented Post-it notes, many people thought of the idea when trying to leave a note in a document or on a door when no removable tape was within reach. In the 1950's, a popular notepad was bound at the top edge with a simple strip of red adhesive tape. After most of the pages had been torn off, what remained was a single sheet of paper with a mildly sticky tape stuck to one edge. As a teen, I saved these self-stick pages and used them to leave messages for my family. I had friends who did the same. It was an obvious idea. Around 1960, I even wrote a letter to 3M suggesting they develop a pad of such self-stick pages. Thinking of this obvious idea was easy. What was hard (and patentable) was developing the right adhesive and manufacturing technique--as well as the right product name and marketing message. 3M did that and I have been a forever grateful customer. Larry Tesler (talk) 07:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Amron

This has resurfaced in the news recently and it seems Alan Amron invented and was even selling his version in 1973. It seems that this should be mentioned since there will be a book coming out about it. The invention of post-it's has a kind of cult status so it is relevant. These are the court papers documenting the timeline http://www.thoughtdevelopmentinc.com/plan.pdf I see someone has been interested in deleting any mention of this from this page and the Arthur Fry page. Since there is a reasonable bit of documentation for this and since the statements are not adamant I think they should remain. Presumably more details about the veracity or context of these claims will follow as media attention is drawn to it. This is one media link http://eileenkoch.com/pr/post-it-notes-inventor-alan-amron-pens-the-truth-in-new-tell-all-memoir/. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cechafin (talk • contribs) 00:43, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The problem is that your "media link" is the page of Amron's PR representative and thus not a reliable source acceptable for the information to be included here. We need independent sources. If Amron's book or his claims should be covered in reliable secondary sources that are not connected with him, they may merit a mention in the article; but neither a primary source (the court papers) nor a bit of PR puffery can be used to substantiate the material at this time. Please don't readd this until the book has actually been published and attracted the sort of published secondary analysis or treatment that could be used to properly source a discussion of the "controversy" in the article. Deor (talk) 02:41, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting perspective. I am new to Wikipedia edits as I said. I see what you are getting at. I found several similar sources but it is hard to know if they are somehow all connected. Don't newspaper stories count? http://esbjournal.com/2011/02/who-really-invented-post-it-notes-publishers-clamor-to-tell-story/ is an online journal. I read over the relevant sections for inclusion in an article and it seems you are setting a strangely high bar to even make mention of this. Court papers exist and there are online articles. I see many wikipedia pages that include such current events and controversies and relevant background information even in cases where they possess some dubious nature. In this case, it is really hard to tell but it is down to more than just one man's word with no reputation on it. I found out about this because it seems to be widely talked about in inventors circles. Wikipedia seems an appropriate place for such a link. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cechafin (talk • contribs) 21:27, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The link in your post above is just a minimal rewriting of the Eileen Koch PR release that you linked in your original post here, so it's still not an independent source. Anyway, I've said my piece above; let's see what others think. Deor (talk) 14:20, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, the esbjournal.com source seems to be an (anonymous?) blog that's just taken a thesaurus to the press release. Per WP:SPS, we should "never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people", and the gist here seems to be "Art Fry didn't invent the Post-It Note, I did". Wikipedia is all about reliable sources - if the 2011 press release and/or Amron's book failed to attract any significant press or industry coverage, then there's nothing to add here. --McGeddon (talk) 14:59, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

According to the actual court timeline (the PDF is just Amron's initial claim), it looks like Amron's court case was closed after a month, with the presiding judge "dismissing the deft 3M with prejudice with each party to bear its own costs", so I don't think the full court documents would be that useful as a source here. --McGeddon (talk) 15:08, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering about that ebs article since it seemed very similar but not entirely sure the reason for it. That is what is making it hard to sort this out. I have been looking around. Amron claimed there was a settlement but can't find more on that yet.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cechafin (talk • contribs) 22:54, 9 October 2012‎

So I have recently come into possession of copies of a letter from 3M indicating a settlement and other court documents with the dates of evidence and marketing materials. There is also an affidavit from a Jeffrey Brown that this was done in 1974 when a company was set up for Amron called "Press On Memos Ltd." I am starting to take his claims very seriously. How would one write or include such information in an edit of the page? These are original sources. Could they be uploaded somewhere. I suspect there are ways to find such legal documents through links to government sites but haven't figured out how yet. (No OCR on these documents). Maybe this would be worth a new page entirely. Please advise.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cechafin (talk • contribs) 03:49, 10 October 2012‎

Under WP:BLPPRIMARY, Wikipedia cannot use private letters or court documents to support a claim about a living person, such as "Art Fry did not invent the Post-It Note, Alan Amron did". These documents must first be published and discussed by a secondary source. --McGeddon (talk) 08:33, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

I read this section over. However, my post was not to make a claim about a living person as the one you state. I was looking to post that there was some controversy that remains to be fully elucidated on the priority of invention. It seems that this keeps getting confused as my making a definite statement about the priority of invention. Prior art of similar art and claims to that effect are interesting and it seems like there should be somewhere people could be directed or be made aware of it. Maybe this is not what Wikipedia is for but I have found a lot of pages with such so I thought it was. Maybe they are all just waiting to be pared back to this stricter standard. Too bad. Even notions that have been refuted have an interesting place in the history of subject. This seems not to be the case here. Given the cult status of this product and the media and legal power of large corporations to shape public opinion, there should be some way to entice interest and draw out people with photos, products or memories that might support his contention further (assuming it is true). If his claim is false then once sufficient public exposure to this notion has been around for a while, it would cast further doubt upon it. Back to the other approach. Given his other successes, maybe an Alan Amron page would be worth creating. Mention could be made there. Cechafin (talk) 18:00, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Similar material sourced to press releases and court reports was readded by User:LeannJordan in 2014 and is being discussed at Talk:Alan Amron. (She copypasted a chunk of the thread here word for word, including my own comment, but I see no reason to split the discussion like this.) --McGeddon (talk) 18:55, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I found these new published 2011 - 2013 references that adhere to the Wikipedia citing guidelines, and I would like to repost my Amron invented Press-on memo and Post-it notes historical publicly known facts.

Any objections please let me know in the same speed that you would have deleted it if I reposted now.

News references "Amron invention of Press-On memo and Post-it Notes":

"Amron might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes, but he's moved on to bigger and better things: lasers. For football." By Joan Niesen The Denver Post 12-3-2013 http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspecial/ci_24645328/nfl-should-at-long-last-trade-chains-lasers-first-down

"Amron invented the Press on Memo back in 1973, otherwise known as the famous Post-it note." By Bob Roble THE Sports Techie 9-9-2013 http://sportstechie.net/first-down-laser-systems-to-enhance-game-of-football-and-fans-in-stadium-experience-with-green-line/

"Who Invented Post-it Notes and Protecting an Invention" 2011-07-21 by Contributor http://superpeachy.com/who-invented-post-it-notes-and-protecting-an-invention/

LeannJordan 6 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 12:14, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

sportstechie.net is a blog and the superpeachy.com article is some kind of anonymous blog/content-farm site with that article credited only to "Contributor". Neither of these could be regarded as reliable sources.

The Denver Post article literally says nothing more about Post-It Notes than the fact that Amron "might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes", which isn't much to go on. If this is the only source you can find that talks about Amron inventing a precursor to Post-It Notes, it looks like something of a WP:REDFLAG - Wikipedia would require a higher quality source than a sports journalist mentioning it in passing. --McGeddon (talk) 12:41, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your quick response.

I did find several other reliable sources exactly like this Denver Post, but I wanted to know from you first why this reliable source can not be used to state the published facts as written, before listing others like it? I did read the whole section on WP:REDFLAG carefully and it was not a mentioning in passing but a stated fact by the Denver Posts reporter.

And these as example Legal sites that posted the Amron vs 3M facts;

"Amron vs 3M" http://www.legalmetric.com/cases/patent/nyed/nyed_997cv07281.html

"U.S. District Court Eastern District of New York (Uniondale) CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 9:97-cv-07281-TCP-MLO" https://ecf.nyed.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/DktRpt.pl?956416638721175-L_1_0-1

LeannJordan 6 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 13:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Your playing with the reporters words and her meaning, without completing her whole quoted published thought.

"...might be best known..." her meaning, Amron is probably best known (in her opinion) for inventing Press-On Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes invention, as opposed to his being known for his inventing first down laser in football.

Not MAYBE BEST KNOWN for inventing it at all, but known publicly for inventing it over his laser line in football.

"Amron might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes, but he's moved on to bigger and better things: lasers. For football."

Thereby the reporter is actually confirming that Amron's publicly known for inventing the Press-On Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes.

I spent too many hours on this simple post already, and I would like if you could please agree that this is a worth while posting.

LeannJordan 6 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 14:01, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

No, I don't personally think it's worth adding a short sentence like "Alan Amron invented a precursor to the Post-It Note called the Press-On Memo" to this article, where this is the only thing we're able to say about it, and the only source that links the two products is a football writer mentioning it in passing as part of a short article about something else. If Amron really is known publicly for inventing such a product, it should be possible to find other sources from the past 30 years stating the same thing in more detail. --McGeddon (talk) 15:27, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

After spending the last 24 hours researching, listening and reading Amron related public information and then consulting with several Wikipedia third party editors for thier opinions (as suggested in the Wikipedia guidelines to do) on their talk pages, and reading all the Wikipedia guidelines (Third party source, use of press releases, reliable sources, cite of published and broadcast, and all the Wikipedia administrator's notice boards including DRN all carefully, I believe this post rewritten below is ready to post.

Your edits are welcomed.

- Cited references and explained -

1- Yahoo Sports Radio: While conducting this nationwide broadcasted radio interview with and about Amrons latest inventions, the host asked Amron about his "Post-it invention". http://www.firstdownlaser.com/Alan_Amron_Steve_Czaban_Show_12_11_13.MP3

2- Carnahan Chronicles: This cite reference is a posted on the iHeart Radio 740 AM The Game website as a third party, clearly mentioning Amron's Post-it notes and Press-on memo inventions, with a hyperlink to its public documents. http://carnahanchronicles.com/2014/08/09/carnahan-chronicles-radio-interview-with-alan-amron-about-first-down-

3- Reuters News Wire: This cite reference has been carefully determined not to be a primary Press release, which Wikipedia would not allow, Reuters is a well known reliable source, and a recognized worldwide leader in the real news wire service business, as a third party who published it on their news wire as a "news story". http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/02/23/idUS166422+23-Feb-2011+MW20110223

4- The Denver Post: It is obvious that the Denver Post didn't (as you suggested) simply mention in passing the Amron Post-it notes Press-on memo invention, the publication went as far as to give it a hyperlink to public records on what they as a third party published. http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspecial/ci_24645328/nfl-should-at-long-last-trade-chains-lasers-first-down#ixzz2mUZuXAZH

5- Supporting Docs a: This cite reference is not from a primary or secondary source, as a third party is required by Wikipedia guidelines for a living person. http://youngipt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/case2a.pdf

6- Supporting Docs b: This cite reference is not from a primary or secondary source, as a third party is required by Wikipedia guidelines for a living person. http://youngipt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/case2b.pdf

7- Settlement Letter: This cite reference is not from a primary or secondary source, as a third party is required by Wikipedia guidelines for a living person. http://youngipt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/settlement.pdf

8- Complaint: This cite reference is not from a primary or secondary source, as a third party is required by Wikipedia guidelines for a living person. http://youngipt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/case1.pdf

9- Case Doc: This cite reference is not from a primary or secondary source, as a third party is required by Wikipedia guidelines for a living person. http://youngipt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/casedocket1.pdf

10- Post-it Trademark filing: This cite reference is not from a primary or secondary source, as a third party is required by Wikipedia guidelines for a living person. http://youngipt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/PostIt_Trademark.pdf {{

• Press-on Memos were invented by Alan Amron in 1973. repositioning, reusable sticky memo note pads, see the original artwork and the original mailings sent to 3M in 1974, and 3M executives were given several samples by hand that same year. Litigation was quickly settled when Amron received a check from 3M just weeks after his filing the attached infringement action and complaint in New York Federal Court. As per the attached Court Dockets. Press-on Memos was what Amron called his invention in 1973 – 3M called it Post-it Notes in late 1974.

References

Respectfully, LeannJordan 7 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 01:40, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

1. Interviews are considered primary sources.
2. A sports journalist saying "click HERE for more about Amron and his Post-it Notes Press-on Memo invention" on his blog is WP:BLPSPS.
3. This article has a clear heading of "Reuters is not responsible for the content in this press release".
4. As I say above, a sports journalist stating in aside that Amron is "best known" for something when no strong sources over 30 years appear to support this is a WP:REDFLAG ("surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources").
5. "Trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents" cannot be used per WP:BLPPRIMARY, Wikipedia requires secondary sources that comment on the trial.
6. As above.
7. As above.
8. As above.
9. As above.
10. More WP:PRIMARY, and the front page of 3M's patent application does not mention Amron's Press-on Memos, so can in no way be used to support the claim that "Press-on Memos was what Amron called his invention in 1973 – 3M called it Post-it Notes in late 1974."

Where exactly are you "consulting with several Wikipedia third party editors for thier opinions"? Perhaps you could ask these third party editors to join this talk thread? --McGeddon (talk) 09:08, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

McGeddon,

I would like to address each of your listed below concerns one at a time, and then I feel I would have exhausted the good faith talks that Wikipedia suggests editors have with each other, to get this simple fact posted on Wikipedia. My next step is obviously to post all of our back and fourth talk on the Administrators Complaint Boards, to get the Administrator and other Wikipedia editors to chime in on this.

I believe that you (McGeddon) are acting in a suspicious manor. Completely deleting everyone one of my posts without editing or reviewing each reference and or cite carefully, and only going by my explanation and or notes.

I implore any other Wikipedia editor to review these references and cites, and help me to make it more conforming to how it can or should be posted.

The facts are clear, I may not be doing the facts, the references or cites justice. Amron and or the general public should not suffer for my lack of Wikipedia expertise, or your quick judgment to delete posts without editing them to conform. Amron and the public deserves better.

1- Not according to Nixon and Larry King interview examples, given as references on the Wikipedia cites. Wikipedia guidelines clearly says that "PUBLISHER or BROADCAST INTERVIEWS" AUDIO and or VIDEO are third party references if made by reliable known sources. Yahoo Radio, iHeartRadio and CBS Radio (to name just a few of the many) are all nationally syndicated known reliable source’s.

2- Your making it sound minimal, it is much more than just a "CLICK HERE", as you say, Post-it notes and Press-on memos are talked about in more detail on live national radio (with literally Millions of Listeners Listening). Listen to the interviews, and hear it for yourself. The Networks post a link on their websites and blogs for back up references of factual information to the listening public.

Making it a much more important fact than just a mention.

3- Not on mobile devices, it doesn't say that it’s a press release, and 75% of all readers in the world today are reading their news on mobile devices and tablets.

Also in Wikipedia it clearly states that a press release published by a "CREDIBLE RELIABLE SOURCE" is considered a third party good cite reference. Reuters is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, news wire service in the world. They are picked up daily by millions of newspapers, magazines and broadcast media all over the world. Therefore, I think Reuters is considered to be a credible, reliable source of news, and passes Wikipedia’s litmus test for reference.

4- Again, this is where my having to explain things to you makes your objection SUSPECT. If you read all the news stories, or heard any of the broadcasted interviews about this case, you would have known that Amron and 3M had an agreement years ago that neither one was going to claim they invented the 3M Post-it note. However, just three years ago, at the 30th anniversary of the Post-it note, Amron saw that 3M was in fact making these false claims that Arthur Frey invented it in 1974.

So Amron notified 3M executives about this, (according to the stories I read and heard from news interviews) and 3M said it was perfectly alright for Amron to tell anyone he wants the truth, as he knows it, and to share his public 3M Federal Court case. That meant doing the 2011 press release and subsequent interviews about Amron coming out as the inventor, was only in the last few years.

So to answer your above original question, it has not been 30 years that stronger sources than "REUTERS", "YAHOO", "THE DENVER POST", "CBS NEWS" (and many other smaller but still reliable sources) have not covered this story. 3M is a very big and financially influential company, I would think the reason more main stream press has not yet touched this story is exactly why I think your objecting to it now. 3M wouldn't want it out. Even thought they told Amron it was ok to tell his story, they would never want it out that they didn’t invent the Post-it note first.

5- Again here you obviously didn't read the link that "The Denver Post" and "iHeartRadio" and others have posted. It clearly is a third party law firm that “comments on the case”, and linked all the public records in the case as reference. And I quote:

http://youngipt.com/amron-vs-3m/

Disclosure at Tradeshows: Another Cautionary Tale?


Amron vs. 3M Minnesota Mining and Mfg Co.


Inventor Alan Amron filed a federal civil action (9:97-CV-07281-TCP/MLO) against 3M on December 10, 1997. Attached as exhibits to his Complaint are documents demonstrating that in 1973, Amron developed an invention he called the “Press-On Memo.”
 The complaint states that in July of 1974, Amron provided samples of his Press-On Memo to representatives of 3M during an Inventors Expo in New York City. The litigation was settled quickly, with Amron receiving a check from 3M only weeks after filing the complaint. Copies of the court pleadings are a matter of public record and can be accessed via the links below:


(1) A docket listing of all documents which were filed by Amron and 3M with the Eastern District of New York for 9:97-CV-07281-TCP/MLO. 
casedocket


(2) The complaint as filed on December 10, 1997, along with a supporting Affidavit dated June 6, 1997. 
Complaint


(3) Supporting Documents – Part A 
case2b


(4) Supporting Documents – Part B 
case2a


(5) Settlement Letter from 3M to Amron 
settlement


(6) 3M’s Trademark Registration 
PostIt_Trademark


6- READ SAME AS ABOVE

7- READ SAME AS ABOVE

8- READ SAME AS ABOVE

9- READ SAME AS ABOVE

10- It is not the 3M patent application referenced or cited here, it was the 3M Post-it Note trademark application from the USPTO, which is shown to prove the 1974 date in which 3M and Post-it note filed for their trademark. In Amron’s Complaint and his attached Exhibits, it clearly establishes Amron invented the Press-on memo in 1973, one year prior to 3M’s 1974 filing.

I’m not a lawyer or Amron, I only know what I read and hear. I would expect that all Amron would want is to provide the facts in this case, and let the people reading it decide its value. These are facts in history about one of the most well known stationery products ever, and the world is entitled to know its origin.

I don’t know why these other Wikipedia editors don’t want to talk in front of you, or on this talk page, that’s not my problem. One even stated that you have been fighting and editing on Post-it notes associated pages for years, and it wasn’t until recently that you started on Amron’s page. Being very critical of everything written, which by the way the “Post-it note Press-on memo precursor references” have been on that Amron Wikipedia page for over 3 years. It has been edited by Wikipedia editors several times over those three years. Why hasn’t any other Wikipedia editor deleted those references in all that time?

Respectfully, LeannJordan 8 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 23:20, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

McGreddon

Happy to see that you have not yet answered, in the hopes that you are listening, viewing and reading all my cited references carefully.

Today I was contacted by a Wikipedia editor who suggested that I also include the following Google, Bing and Yahoo search results. In the hope that if you didn't agree with any of my previous findings so far, maybe you might agree with some of these.

Google, Bing and Yahoo search all seem to have several lead text about Amron inventing Post-it Note Press-on Memo in them, see a few examples taken as shown, listed below.

New found Post-it Notes and Press-on Memo cite references: Links to and Google, Bing and Yahoo text search results.

1- ESPN SPORTS RADIO First Down Laser and Post-It notes Press-On memo inventor Alan Amron national interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Z9vtGcuQM&sns=em

2- FIRST DOWN LASER SYSTEM WGN Radio - 720 AM A Tribune Broadcasting Station Inventor Alan Amron discusses the tumultuous journey of his creation that could revolutionize football spectating. ... First Down Laser, and his other inventions Post-it Notes/Press-on Memo, Battery operated water guns and Photo Digital Wallet. http://wgnradio.com/2013/01/29/first-down-laser-system/

3- WHIP PHILADELPHIA Zach Gelb TV Radio interview on location at the Super Bowl on media row with First Down Laser and Post-it note Press-on memo inventor Alan Amron http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-wBHcDrOJI&sns=tw

4- Orlando News Center Amron Met With Famous Recluse Writer J.D. Salinger (Catcher ... orlandonewscenter.com/amron-met-with- famous-recluse... Cached In his book Alan Amron reflects on how in 1973 he invented a revolutionary new stationery product he called the Press-on Memo, ... http://orlandonewscenter.com/amron-met-with-famous-recluse-writer-j-d-salinger-catcher-in-the-rye-at-his-home-and-now-pens-his-story-in-a-new-tell-all-memoir/

5- La Late News lalate news - America's Fastest Growing Celebrity News Site! news.lalate.com/category/kristy-mcnichol Feb 26, 2011 · During the time her career was reportedly handled by Alan Amron. ... be part of his new memoir about Alan Amron entitled “A Post-it Note to 3M — You ... http://news.lalate.com/category/kristy-mcnichol/

6- The Denver Post to show Google search notes NFL should at long last trade chains for lasers when marking ... Cached Dec 03, 2013 · Alan Amron, for one, has something to say about this. Amron might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes, ... http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspecial/ci_24645328/nfl-should-at-long-last-trade-chains-lasers-first-down

7- Middletown Press Time to trade the NFL chains for lasers www.middletownpress.com/.../time-to-trade-the-nf... The Middletown Press Dec 4, 2013 - Alan Amron, for one, has something to say about this. Amron might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes ... http://www.middletownpress.com/sports/20131204/time-to-trade-the-nfl-chains-for-lasers

8- Macomb Daily News Time to trade the NFL chains for lasers www.macombdaily.com  › Sports Alan Amron, for one, has something to say about this. Amron might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes, ... http://www.macombdaily.com/sports/20131204/time-to-trade-the-nfl-chains-for-lasers

9- Morning Journal Time to trade the NFL chains for lasers - The Morning Journal www.morningjournal.com/sports/20131204/ time-to-trade-the... Cached Alan Amron, for one, has something to say about this. Amron might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes, ... http://www.morningjournal.com/sports/20131204/time-to-trade-the-nfl-chains-for-lasers

10- Super Peachy Who Invented Post-it Notes and Protecting an Invention ... superpeachy.com/who-invented-post-it-notes-and-protecting-an-invention/ Jul 21, 2011 - In 1974, Amron mailed samples of what he called Press-on Memos to 3M executives and other industry leaders and later he was at a trade ... http://superpeachy.com/who-invented-post-it-notes-and-protecting-an-invention/

11- youngipt legal comment on case Disclosure at Tradeshows: Another Cautionary Tale ... An inventor, Alan Amron, sued 3M in 1997. According to his complaint, he provided samples of his “PressOn Memo” invention to representatives of 3M at the ... http://youngipt.com/amron-vs-3m/

12- ESB Journal Who Really Invented Post-It Notes? esbjournal.com/2011/02/who-really- invented-post-it-notes... Cached Amron called this item “Press-on Memos,” the same ... So now the 62-year-old New York inventor is coming out as the “original inventor” of press on sticky memo. http://esbjournal.com/2011/02/who-really-invented-post-it-notes-publishers-clamor-to-tell-story/

13- The Oakland Press Time to trade the NFL chains for lasers www.theoaklandpress.com/sports/20131204/ time-to-trade... Cached Anyone who tries to tell you that watching a football game from a press box is the same as watching from the stands — well, they’re lying. http://www.theoaklandpress.com/sports/20131204/time-to-trade-the-nfl-chains-for-lasers

14- Husker Universe September | 2013 | Yorktown Husker Universe www.huskeruniverse.com/2013/09 Cached His original contribution to the world occurred in 1973, when the Brooklyn-born Amrondiscovered Press-on Memo. It is known today as Post-It notes ... http://www.huskeruniverse.com/2013/09/28/inventor-embraces-new-nfl-concept-with-first-down-laser/

15- Daily News NFL should at long last trade chains for lasers when marking 1st downs www.dailynewsen.com › Science Any one who tries to inform you that watching a football game from a press box is the exact same as watching from the stands &mdash properly they are lying. http://www.dailynewsen.com/science/nfl-should-at-long-last-trade-chains-for-lasers-when-marking-1st-downs-h2743324.html

Respectfully, LeannJordan 10 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 04:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

To show you below, that the mobile version of Reuters published news says nothing about press release and calls it Top News: I did cut the text short to show you the top portion of the wire.

Reuters US Search

Top News Post-it Notes Inventor Alan Amron Pens the Truth in New Tell-All Memoir Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:00am EST

LOS ANGELES, CA, Feb 23 (MARKET WIRE) -- This year marks the 30th anniversary of the Post-it Notes invention and publishers are now courting its original inventor to tell the real story of how this small item has become an indispensable part of modern society. After completing a mass mailing of 2,000 actual working sample pieces to all the top stationery industry executives -- including 3M -- in the year 1974, inventor Alan Amron was selling and distributing samples of his newest creation at a trade show held at the Americana Hotel in New York City. Amron called this item "Press-on Memos," the same re-positional sticky notes the world has since come to know as "Post-it Notes." The public has been told this is a product straight from the innovative minds of the 3M company, as featured in their television ads. "Nothing, however, could be farther from the truth," states Amron. Amron recalls 3M executives were impressed with his re-positional sticky notes product and its magical adhesive when he presented them with samples of both. He had worked out the technical details, including, but not limited to, the formulation of the re-positional rubber cement -- both adhesive enough to stick, but not so adhesive as to leave a mess. Amron supplied 3M executives samples and documentation of his Press-on Memos and his special adhesive, and in return, they gave him their business cards and told him he would be contacted. After no such contact was made, Amron called the executives. He was informed that after careful review, the creative 3M engineers felt the product could not be manufactured without gumming up the machinery and that production would be too expensive. Amron thought the deal with 3M was dead in the water, but as he observed, 3M was more impressed than they let on. "3M employed their ingenuity and corporate might to not only solve the formerly insurmountable technical and cost problems, but also to claim the product was their own." All this has been laid out in publicly available Court documentation, Federal Case Index # 97-CV-7281-TCP/MLO, Amron vs. 3M, Minn, Mining. An expensive legal battle between the corporate giant and Amron resulted in the inventor's voluntary dismissal of the case to receive a minuscule fraction of what Post-it Notes has made for 3M to date.

  © 2011 Thomson Reuters

LeannJordan 10 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 04:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

These all still look like press releases and primary-source interviews: Market Wire is a press release service. If Amron's claim to have invented a precursor to Post-It Notes was actually embargoed for thirty years before he put out a 2011 press release that was roundly ignored, then perhaps he isn't "best known" for this after all. The fact that nobody removed a press-release-sourced claim from the Alan Amron article for three years doesn't mean that it was endorsed by all passing editors as an acceptable source, it may just have been that nobody checked the link: see WP:LONGTIME. I only removed it recently because it was the first time that I'd looked at the article.

Having the support of other editors who don't want to be named or join the conversation is meaningless: off-wiki discussions do not count towards consensus. Passing on anonymous personal attacks about how someone said I've been "fighting and editing on Post-it notes associated pages for years" is the same as making those attacks yourself, and is not appropriate. --McGeddon (talk) 09:30, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

McGeddon,

They all still “look like” press releases?

Why can't you read them, and see for yourself that they are in fact "not press releases", but NEWS and INFORMATION published by reliable news reporting organizations.

You haven't even read my post above, if you are still asking me about the 30 years leading up to the 2011 Amron going public date, read my post above explaining it, and or the references cited that explain it.

I cite this TV CHANNEL 5 NEWS NEW YORK video Google reference, to a 1974 inventors expo show news broadcast, which on Google mentions Amron Press-on Memo. It’s obvious that no mention was made of Post-it Notes at that 1974 inventors show, because Post-it notes was not yet invented.

In fact, that was the inventors Expo show explained in references cited, 3M executives had asked for samples of the AMRON Press-on Memo pads and adhesive.

A- CHANNEL 5 NEWS NEW YORK: inventors show news press on and water gun shown.wmv ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JErZfShQfaU

Aug 1, 2010 - Uploaded by Alan Amron Amron has a booth at the NY inventors show, news covering his press on memo and battery operated water ...

B- FREQUENCY POSTED CHANNEL 5 NEWS NEW YORK: inventors show news press on and water gun shown.wmv http://www.frequency.com/video/inventors-show-news-press-on-water-gun/186389591

Aug 20, 2014 - Amron has a booth at the NY inventors show news covering his press on memo and battery operated water gun inventions for sale ...

I didn't realize that this talk page goes public, and several people have been sending me more "UNEDITED" below search engine cite references.

Not sure how many I'm allowed, or should, post here, but hopefully you will get the picture.

I. Another Video/Radio broadcast just found, talking about Amron's Press-On memo Post-it Notes, and other of his inventions:

NFL RANTS AND RAVES RADIO: NFL Rants and Raves interviews Alan Amron to learn more about ... m.youtube.com/watc...Feb 2, 2013... Alan Amron and learn about the First Down Laser System. ... Top 10 NFL Post Game Tirades by politicoization 286,281 views ... The former Mrs Muhammad Ali thinks its"Long long ... http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_ZrJAGGQs&autoplay=1

II. Print media and online buzz on Alan Amron invention Press on Memo-Post-it Note:

1- BRONCO PLANET: NFL should at long last trade chains for lasers when marking 1st ... broncoplanet.com/.../nfl-should-at-long-l...Dec 3, 2013 - Amron might be best known for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes, but he's ... http://broncoplanet.com/broncos-news/nfl-should-at-long-last-trade-chains-for-lasers-when-marking-1st-downs/

2- iSTOCK ANALYST: (a) Amron Partnered With Legendary World Boxing Champion ... www.istockanalyst.com/.../amron-partner... Mar 3, 2011 - In 1973 Alan Amron invents a revolutionary new stationery product he calls the Press-on Memo, which ... http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/4939309/amron-partnered-with-legendary-world-boxing-champion-muhammad-ali-to-reunite-the-beatles-and-now-pens-his-story-in-new-tell-all-memoir

3- aiHIT: Persons - aiHit endb-consolidated.aihit.com/.../people.ht... May 9, 2014 - Alan Amron's knack for inventing began in 1973 when he invented a product he called the Press-On-Memo (today's product is known as Post-it Notes) which was a pad of paper with a ... http://endb-consolidated.aihit.com/008A4E2100000012/people.htm

4- iNAGIST NEWS: Our top story: UKIP gains its first ever elected MP with Clacton by ... inagist.com/all/520440291481108480/ 10 hours ago - POST-IT Notes in 1974 from PRESS-ON Memos 1973 1973 Amron invented the first ever Press-on ... http://inagist.com/all/520440291481108480/

5- FROM POLAND NEWS: Amerykańscy wynalazcy:32.Alan Amron - Narodowość Słowiańska - Forum dyskusyjne | Gazeta.pl Alan Amron-pochodzenie żydowskie Alan Amron (urodzony 20 listopada 1948), amerykański wynalazca, który posiada 39 patentów amerykańskich. Tło AMRON wynalazł produkt w 1973 roku nazwał Press-On-Memo, pad papieru z lepkim klejem podłożu, które mogłyby umieszczenia (i przyjść i włącz łatwo) do Pt, 26-09-2014 Forum: Narodowość Słowiańska - Narody inteligentne technicznie 2 http://hasla.forum.gazeta.pl/szukaj/forum/microsoft+pad

6- TECHNOLOGY NEWS AT TM Cnet: Arrested for Illegal Entry at NBA Finals - Technology News - TMCnet technews.tmcnet.com/.../6439796.htm Jul 16, 2012 - He was the inventor/creator in 1972 of Press On Memo, which is known now around the world as the popular Post It Notes by ... Alan Amron Email Contact SOURCE: eCredentials, Inc. http://technews.tmcnet.com/news/2012/07/16/6439796.htm

7- NYANGLISH NEWS: national attention for his - English example search - Nyanglish nyanglish.com/national-attention-for-his Amron's Press-On Memo (later known as the Post-it Note) and the subsequent lawsuit Amron vs. 3M - Post-it note Action ...

8- CHINA GOO: Alan Amronとは - goo Wikipedia (ウィキペディア) wpedia.goo.ne.jp/enwiki/Alan_ Amron Amron invented a product in 1973 he called the Press-On-Memo, a pad of paper with a sticky glue backing which could ... http://wpedia.goo.ne.jp/enwiki/Alan_Amron

9- ENTERTECH WATER GUNS NEWS: Most Relevant - Entertech Water Gun Reviews - Product.Info entertech.water.gun.product.info/?... "Amron has a booth at the NY inventors show, news covering his press on memo and battery operated water gun ... http://entertech.water.gun.product.info/youtube/?thesearch=entertech+water+gun

10- MEDIA DENVER BRONCOS: [PDF]December 4, 2013 - Denver Broncos Media Room media.denverbroncos.com/.../131204 Dec 3, 2013 - for inventing the Press-On-Memo, a precursor to Post-it notes, ... Over the past several years, Amron. http://www.denverpost.com/lunchspecial/ci_24645328/nfl-should-at-long-last-trade-chains-lasers-first-down

11- CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR: Better mousetraps: How inventors plan to change football - Christian ... m.csmonitor.com/.../better-mousetraps-h... Jan 29, 2009 - That leaves a lot of room for human error, says Alan Amron, a professional inventor from Woodbury, ...

12- COALL: stationary industry items Businessmen and Brand www.coall.lu/en/.../list/ Headquartered: United States FOB: United States,United States. PRESS-ON MEMO stationary industry items. Amron ...

13- Z SMART BLOGSPOT: Amron Embraces New Concept For NFL With First Down Laser zsmart.blogspot.com/.../amron-embraces-... Sep 27, 2013 - It is known today as Post-It notes by 3M. Amron sustained his licensed inventions focus, authoring a ...

14- SPORTS TECHIE: First Down Laser Systems to enhance game of football and fans in ... sportstechie.net/first-down-laser-systems-t... Sep 9, 2013 - Amron invented the Press on Memo back in 1973, otherwise known as the famous Post-it note. It was a ... http://sportstechie.net/first-down-laser-systems-to-enhance-game-of-football-and-fans-in-stadium-experience-with-green-line/

15- NANCY'S BLOG: Nancy is an ordained pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. She serves at Holy Trinity Lutheran Church in Charlotte, North Carolina, Inside Nancy's Noodle: Even God needs sticky notes insidenancysnoodle.blogspot.com/.../eve... Feb 27, 2012 - I owe Mr. Amron a debt of gratitude. Especially ... Sticky notes have become an essential part of my life.

16- HTLC CHARLOTTE NEWS: God's Sticky Note in the Sky | Holy Trinity Lutheran Church htlccharlotte.org/.../gods-sticky-note-sky Feb 26, 2012 - I owe Mr. Amron a debt of gratitude. ... Yes, the concept of the sticky note goes all the way back to the ... http://htlccharlotte.org/sermon/gods-sticky-note-sky

17- AND HRA BUSINESS NEWS: Post-it Notes Inventor Alan Amron Pens the Truth in New Tell-All ... And hra news.net/.../Post-it-Notes-Inv... Feb 23, 2011 - This year marks the 30th anniversary of the Post-it Notes invention and publishers are now courting its ...

18- REUTERS MOBIL NEWS WIRE: Amron Met With Famous Recluse Writer J.D. Salinger (Catcher in ... mobile.reuters.com/.../idUS226236+25-F... Feb 25, 2011 - But soon thereafter 3M releases their own version of the same product and called it Post-it Note. http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUS226236+25-Feb-2011+MW20110225?irpc=932

19- iSTOCK ANALYST: (b) Amron Partnered With Legendary World Boxing Champion ... www.istockanalyst.com/.../amron-partner... Mar 3, 2011 - But soon thereafter 3M releases their own version of the same product and called it Post-it Note. http://www.istockanalyst.com/business/news/4939309/amron-partnered-with-legendary-world-boxing-champion-muhammad-ali-to-reunite-the-beatles-and-now-pens-his-story-in-new-tell-all-memoir

20- DIGITAL MEDIA NET: Post-it Notes Inventor Alan Amron Pens the Truth in New Tell-All ... videoediting.digitalmedianet.com/.../Post-... Amron called this item "Press-on Memos," the same re-positional sticky notes the world has since come to know as ... http://www.officialappdownload.com/shoemoney/

21- BENZINGA: Inventor of Post-it NotesApproached by Publishers to ... - Benzinga www.benzinga.com/press.../inventor-of-p... Feb 9, 2011 - Amron called this item "Press-on Memos," the same sticky notes the world has since come to know as ... http://www.benzinga.com/press-releases/11/02/p848004/inventor-of-post-it-notes-approached-by-publishers-to-tell-the-real-sto

22- UP WORLDLY MOBILE INVENTORS WORD PRESS: September | 2012 | UpWorldly Mobile Inventors https://upworldlymobileinventors.wordpr... Sep 23, 2012 - Amron called this item “Press-on Memos,” the same sticky notes the world has since come to know as ... https://upworldlymobileinventors.wordpress.com/2012/09/

23- YAHOO: Amron Partnered With Legendary World Boxing ... - Yahoo Finance www.yahoo.com/.../Amron-Partnered-Wi... Mar 3, 2011 - ... of course the first Press-on Memo that 3M later called their Post-it Note. In 1973 Alan Amron invents a ...

24- ALIPES NEWS: AlipesNews - Post-it NotesInventor Alan Amron Pens the Truth in ... https://www.alipesnews.com/.../ArchiveSt... Feb 23, 2011 - Post-it Notes Inventor Alan Amron Pens the Truth in New Tell-All Memoir ... https://www.alipesnews.com/App.aspx

25- MAP YOUR INFO: Alan Amron - mapyourinfo.com mapyourinfo.com/wiki/.../Alan%20 Amron... Amron invented a product in 1973 he called the Press-On-Memo, a pad of paper with a sticky glue backing which could ...

26- AL SAIFIN NEWS: tennessee titans jerseys boys vegas vacation www.alsaifin.com/index.asp?p... Amron might be best known for inventing the Press On Memo, a precursor to Post it notes, but he's moved on to bigger ...

27- OPEN ECO SOURCE ORG: Free 3m Sticky Notes - Open Eco Source www.openecosource.org/free-25f94-3m... Aug 4, 2014 - 3 new Nov 99 Browse adhesive offers sticky 3M hex Sticky within Free notes 99 3x3, Amron Pad.

28- ENCYCLOPINE OPINION ENCYCLOPEDIA ORG: Alan Amron - Encyclopine | Opinion Encyclopedia(Wikipedia Plus ... encyclopine.org/en/Alan_Amron Known for, Inventing the Press-on Memo (precursor of 3Ms Post-it notes) ... Note worthy Amron inventions include:.

29- SLIDEEE: Inventions that you will recognize by Alan Amron - Slideee.com www.slideee.com/.../inventions-that-you-... Aug 6, 2014 - The first ever Press On Memo now known as Post-it Notes The first ever hand held battery operated ...

30- REVIEW SEEKER: Amron Partnered With Legendary World Boxing Champion ... www.reviewseeker.com/.../ Amron-Partne... Mar 3, 2011 - ... and other famous toys, and of course the first Press-on Memo that 3M later called their Post-it Note.

31- BEAT ZONE CZECHOSLOVAKIA: Videa uživatele gun shown - BeatZone.cz beatzone.cz/search/feed/gun+shown Amron has a booth at the NY inventors show, news covering his press on memo and battery operated water gun ... http://beatzone.cz/search/feed/gun+shown

Instead of you saying "its not true, what this Wikipedia editor said of you" you attack the messenger. I will ask the Wikipedia editor that made that comment about you, if he/she is willing to allow me to give you a name. I did not make any such attacks, I was simply restating what I was told.

Seems obvious to anyone reading all this above, that you don't ever take the time to actually read, and or listen to any of the references cited, but you so quickly delete and move on.

I can't do anymore with you, I will pass all this information onto the other Wikipedia Administrators and editors to review.

You, McGreddon, should not have the final word on all this, or the power to control and or manipulate any "factual history"!!!

LeannJordan 10 October 2014 LeannJordan (talk) 22:26, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Press releases are still press releases no matter who reprints them, we shouldn't treat self-serving interview claims (or brief "so Bob, it says here you're famous for inventing the waffle iron" introductions from sports journalists) as fact, and somebody being an ordained pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church does not make their blogspot blog a reliable source.

And yes, it'd be good to get this sourcing disagreement reviewed by some other editors - the easy and recommended first step to that is just to request a WP:THIRDOPINION. --McGeddon (talk) 10:26, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Not all the cited references above are from a press releases (like The Denver Post as example) or radio interviews, and if you took the time to read some of them you would agree.

FYI - The information about who invented Post-it notes in the first place was announced in a PRESS RELEASE by 3M in around 2011, stating something like this (I'm in the process of getting that actual 3M press release to show you) in celebrating the 33rd year anniversary of Post-it notes invention by Arthur Frey and etc. That was taken in by the whole world (including Wikipedia) as being the gospel, and made it history.

I will be looking for more references to cite, and at the same time try to get other Wikipedia editors help in writing this factual (publicly known and accessible) historical facts posted properly on Wikipedia AMRON AND POST-IT NOTE pages.

14 October 2014 LeannJordan LeannJordan (talk) 20:29, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you could indicate which of your 34 sources is neither an interview, a blog nor a reprint of Amron's own press release?

The Denver Post has been discussed above and it only makes one brief and vague statement about Amron being "best known" for inventing a precursor to Post-It Notes, in the introduction to an article about his football laser: if this is the single strongest source you can find, and all we have otherwise are press releases and self-serving "hi, I'm Alan Amron, you may remember me from inventing the Post-It Note" interview claims, the statement would appear to fall under the "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources" of WP:REDFLAG. --McGeddon (talk) 08:53, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

I have a life and a job that I must be getting back to.

Clearly I don't own this article and you have, as any other Wikipedia editor the right and obligation to change, revert or question it. You mentioned above the facts on a living person that are clear in the 1997 United States Federal Court Action needed to be a "a discussion" by a third party to qualify as a clear reference cite to a post. I believe the http://youngipt.com/amron-vs-3m/ Disclosure at Tradeshows: Another Cautionary Tale?
 Amron vs. 3M Minnesota Mining and Mfg Co.
 to be a reference that should be posted. No need for you to respond, if you agree please post it. Thank you. 15 October 2014 LeannJordan LeannJordan (talk) 12:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This article's title is ridiculous!

Wiki is not in the business of advertising and should not have a brand name in the title or images of brand name products. Even if the product is known by that name such as a Zamboni machine the Wiki article is ALWAYS the generic name Ice resurfacer. Change this immediately

66.116.62.178 (talk) 20:09, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Is there any policy actually saying this? I thought Wikipedia always just went with the WP:COMMONNAME. --McGeddon (talk) 20:29, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not always go with the common name, but it does do so most of the time and I see no circumstances here that would support departing from that standard. Using the name most of the world knows a product by is not advertising and your statement that our articles are always under a generic title is wildly incorrect. We do sometimes use generic titles when there is no sufficiently common name or other problems with using the most common name arise but post-it note does appear to be the common name here and I see no extenuating issues. If you want to nevertheless request a move, see Wikipedia:Requested moves, but please support any such request with a policy/guideline backed rationale beyond what you've stated here. You can peruse our article titling policy and many pages linked from it, at Wikipedia:Article titles.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:19, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Discouraged In The Wikipedia System to Provide the Full History of all Subject Matter

After months have gone by, and I see that there is no editorial support for the multiple posted actual historical known facts in this Amron Post-it notes history issue, from any other credible Wikipedia editors, I LeannJordan can no longer believe in the credibility and or the honesty of any of the provided history and or facts in and of the entire Wikipedia system.

Which is supposed to be an historical record of all the known facts and issues. One lone Wikipedia editor has successfully prevented important historical known facts and issues in the Amron Post-it notes history to be posted. Happy Holidays! December 18, 2014 LeannJordan LeannJordan (talk) 23:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)