Talk:Polish proverbs

Translation of the oldest proverb

Ping User:Nihil novi, User:Lembit Staan, User:Merangs: what do you think about my translation of the oldest known Polish proverb: "Quando się łyka drą, tunc ea drzy", in modern Polish rendered as "Kiedy się łyka drą, wtedy je drzyj", as "When your bast shoes are falling apart, throw them out"? I am pretty confident in the first part (i.e. "When your bast shoes are falling apart"), but I want to double check you agree with the meaning of the second part. I couldn't find a better explanation of this in sources (just notes that it encouraged some action in the spring, related to łyko lipowe (Phloem Tilia, which means the rope made from that substance). Unless there is some mistranslation from Old Polish, I think the proverb is saying to make new shoes when your old ones fell apart (in the spring, although the proverb doesn't state this clearly - the time frame is from secondary sources). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Don't even try to beat Google Translate :-) (which says "When they take a swallow they tear them up "). The meaning of the proverb is that everything ought to be done in a proper time. At the moment the best English equivalent that comes to my mind is "Strike the iron while hot" ("kuj żelazo póki gorące"). The original proverb literally says "When the bast can be torn, then tear it". I happen to be so old as to know where this apparent tautology comes from: I have a hands-on knowledge of how to harvest linden bast (and how to make bast shoes and ropes from it and many other things a computer scientist is not supposed to know:-). The bast is harvested by stripping the bark off young linden tree shoots (4-6 years old or 2-3 inch in diameter) and then tearing the bast from the cortex. This can be done extremely easily during a short period of time in late spring (sic!) when the sap is still actively running after the winter hibernation. There are reasons not to harvest bast neither too early nor too late. I hope this will help you to find reliable sources for what I wrote. By the way, 'łyko lipowe' is tilia phloem, or linden bast, not phloem tilia. Lembit Staan (talk) 06:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

@Lembit Staan Thanks, this makes sense, but we need a reference for that meaning. You may be right that I misinterpreted łyko as directly referring to bast shoes (this connection is made here). PS. Here's take two: "When phloem is ready for harvest, take it". Of course, it would be best to find an English translation in a RS... PPS. On the other hand, my initial version seems to be supported by [1]. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

PLease dont write nonsense when you dont know things. Bast shoes were made by peasants in spare time, i.e., during winter. No one in their sane mind would spend time in spring when there is so much agricultural work to be done, from sunrise to sunset. Lembit Staan (talk) 06:21, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

You are probably right but we need sources. [2] is best so far from what I found, which seems to finally give an interpretation "wykorzystaj nadarzającą się okazję", HOWEVER, all sources agree this should be done in the spring. The cited source is even more precise stating "Kalendarzowe przysłowie Gonić wilka, a drzeć łyka (NKP III 688) wskazuje konkretny czas (maj), kiedy czynność tę należało wykonać." I don't think there is a contradiction - the phloem (bast fibre?) should be harvested in the spring, and would be used to make bast shoes (in the winter - you are likely right about that - but sources don't clarify that). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Half of the saying, "Quando sø lika drø, tunc ea drzi", is not in Polish but in Latin.

"Quando" = "When".

"tunc" = "then" or "immediately".

"ea" looks Latin, but I can't place it.

Bast ("łyko") is fiber from the stems of certain plants (e.g., flax, hemp, ramie), used to make textiles and cordage.

The verb "drzeć" ("tear", "rend", "strip out") evidently appears here twice, as "drø" and "drzi".

I like Lembit Staan's interpretation: "When bast can be torn, then tear it."

Nihil novi (talk) 07:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

ea: wiktionary say "3: Accusative neuter plural of is: 'them (things)'". Lembit Staan (talk) 09:29, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Lembit Staan! That appears to neatly clinch the interpretation.

Nihil novi (talk) 18:00, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Piotrus: - Sorry I wasn't able to take notice of this earlier. I was away. Sadly, my knowledge of Latin and how to analyse is [still] rather poor. Looking at the above discussion I'd place both the direct translation and then the interpreted meaning for clarity, as you probably have done already. Merangs (talk) 14:35, 2 September 2021 (UTC)