Talk:Our Lady of the Angels School fire

Life Magazine Cover

It appears that the section about the Life Magazine cover is wrong. The article states that the December 15, 1958 cover shows the firefighter carrying out a dead victim, however a cover search at Life.com reveals this: http://www.life.com/Life/cover_search/view?coverkeyword=&startMonth=12&startYear=1958&endMonth=12&endYear=1958&pageNumber=1&indexNumber=2 ...which is most definitely not the image described. Maybe I'm missing something here, so if the article is wrong, then correct it; otherwise, please show some evidence of the cover described for interested parties. Correction has been made by DennisJOBrien@yahoo.com on September 3, 2007, as the photo is indeed on an inside article within the magazine rather than on the cover itself.

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In December 1,1958 fire broke out in a stairway in the Our Lady of the Angels School.♠

This article needs a narrative description to go along with the diagrams. --Metropolitan90 08:23, July 19, 2005 (UTC) These drawings appear to have been taken from http://www.olafire.com/FireStages.asp?S=2.

New narrative description added February 15, 2006 by DennisJOBrien@yahoo.com, as well many successive general improvements of the entire article. All facts cited aretaken from the two books on the subject and summarized from the OLA official website.

• The cover seen on the OLA website clearly states December 15, 1958. Maybe it is a special about the disaster? WhisperToMe 04:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Explanation of the images

I strongly suggest someone get permission or independantly recreate the explanations for the diagrams. By themselves they aren't the most interpretable, or look (like the last one) like someone scrawled on them... Thanx... 68.39.174.238 00:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC).

On November 22, 2006, I added references in the text of the article that pertain to the six diagram images of the "progression of the fire." I believe these are correctly situated, as I have a good understanding of the history of this fire and how it spread throughout the building. From DennisJOBrien@yahoo.com.

Charter School

The charter school Nuestra America closed in 2002, anyone know if the former Our Lady of the Angels school building is being used currently? If so, what as-- a school, apartments, something else? Jaguara 16:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I e-mailed Eric Morgan, olafire.com's webmaster, asking if the school building was currently in use. Mr. Morgan informed me that it was currently leased by Galapagos Elementary Charter School. Jaguara 19:37, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems that a bit more can be gleaned about GECS by going here. Does the address check out? Renaissance 2010 Carptrash 20:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC) - they seem to have different addresses, but be on the same block, so it could be the " a rose by any other name" syndrome. Carptrash 20:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I have photographs of the area that I took in September 2006. Most were taken inside the church but some show the outside of the school, the convent, the area around it, etc. I have one photo that shows a canopy with the name of the Galapagos Charter School. (Funambules 6 December 2007).

Funambules (talk) 16:41, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

simply too long

A list of all the hospitals to which victims were taken is just one example of extraneous information in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.59.115 (talk) 01:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I've deleted that information. ChiHistoryeditor (talk) 18:06, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Stuff

• Secter, Bob. "Our Lady of Angels School fire." Chicago Tribune.

WhisperToMe (talk) 01:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

==Firefighter image==du I added the iconic firefighter image, as a fair use image. the list of victims includes those injured, which is way too much detail.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 19:26, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Arsonist's name(s)

I see the identity of the arsonist has again been deleted. If it's because there are no reliable, verifiable sources I'm not concerned about it, but I fear that the name(s) are being deleted due to individual opinions that the general public has no right to have this information. ChiHistoryeditor 19:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The adding/deleting without comment continues. Does anyone want to weigh in on this issue? ChiHistoryeditor 18:47, 3 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChiHistoryeditor (talk • contribs)

The cited references don't have his name, as far as I can tell. I think if someone wants the name added (cough-IP-cough), they really ought to find a reliable source that states it. Until then, I believe removing it is the way to go. NekoKatsun (talk) 18:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

You should try typing his name onto the olafire.com website. It gets blotted out by automatic filter. You can use both Philip Presti or Philip Decker and see this occurs. We aren't bound by their rules on Wikipedia. They can join the church in covering up the crime. I won't.

I'm... not really sure how to respond to that. We want Wikipedia to be accurate and sourced, so we need a reliable source that states the name if it's to be included. Otherwise it falls under WP:NOR. To quote that article:

Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.

If you've got a published source with the name - a single newspaper article, a book, anything - please feel free to add it with the name. Until then, name stays out. NekoKatsun (talk) 16:55, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

It's worth noting that John Kuenster, author of To Sleep With the Angels, did speak with Presti before Presti died in 2004. Presti said the matter was between him "and his confessor." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:48F8:28:C15:41E9:CD99:C6DD:A222 (talk) 15:00, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Does the book mention that he confessed, recanted, etc.? If so then you could cite that. NekoKatsun (talk) 15:59, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I have submitted a request for page protection for this article. Checking the page history, people have been anonymously adding the boy's name for months, and no one's ever added a source with the name. WP:NOR, everybody; if your info comes from an indignant forum post, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. NekoKatsun (talk) 14:32, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

How can you protect it under rules governing biographies of living persons when the arsonist, Philip Presti, died in 2004 of cancer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.110.102 (talk) 17:20, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

How do you know he's the arsonist? Also, are you honestly saying that because someone is dead, it's all right to publish unproven allegations about them? NekoKatsun (talk) 18:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

I think the poster is referring to the notice that publishing the alleged arsonist's name violates the "biographies of living persons policy." The more important issue, of course, is the lack of an acceptable secondary source. ChiHistoryeditor 15:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Right, thank you; I snarked a little there, and I apologize. I spoke with NeilN about it - the alleged arsonist is dead, after all - and he elaborated that the repeated additions of unsourced information are a valid reason for page protection in place of the BLP policy. NekoKatsun (talk) 16:18, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

No problem. However, now the information about the confession--and its citation--is being removed over and over by another user. ChiHistoryeditor 13:19, 17 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChiHistoryeditor (talk • contribs)

Noted (and I reverted an instance of it too). Since the confession is sourced I'm of the opinion that it should be left in. I've left Sonorra a message on their talkpage; hopefully we can work this all out. NekoKatsun (talk) 15:49, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Sonorra has a history of editing that information and only appears to edit this article.ChiHistoryeditor 15:54, 17 July 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChiHistoryeditor (talk • contribs)

Arsonist's Name... again.

No sooner does page protection expire than a new IP shows up and adds the name again. At this point I'm leaning towards permanent semi-protection, though that does feel a little like a nuclear option. My position is that this has been going on for far too long, and while I and others have repeatedly requested a source citing the boy's name, no one has been able to produce one. It seems to be added mostly by IPs, so I think permanent semi-protection would mitigate the worst of it. Would anyone like to weigh in, for or against?

I'd also like to add that the lack of a source is not for lack of trying; I've been searching out everything I can related to the fire, and nowhere have I found a reliable source for the boy's name. NekoKatsun (talk) 00:10, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi again! I agree it seems extreme to enact permanent semi-protection, but at some point it might be the only option. Ever the optimist, I did create a talk page for the latest IP and asked for a source but I know it's unlikely to help. ChiHistoryeditor (talk) 16:35, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected, 1 year. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:27, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The information is out there. There are two separate, (Cook County Circuit Court and the Chicago Fire Department Investigative archives) that have the name of Philip A. Decker as the suspected arsonist. A freedom of information request has been initiated.

The original confession has the arsonist’s address. You can trace the aforementioned Decker/Presti to the address. Kray78 (talk) 01:34, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2015

Johnathon Cain of the rock group "Journey" was amoung the survivers. Testimony thru "Paula White Ministries"(Youtube) 75.143.110.238 (talk) 22:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. YouTube is not a reliable source. --Stabila711 (talk) 23:28, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Someone added the Johnathon Cain information again, so I deleted it as unsourced content. If someone can provide a reliable source, the information can be re-added. ChiHistoryeditor (talk) 18:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Jonathan Cain wrote a song for the 50th Anniversary for his classmates. He was in the school during the fire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kray78 (talk • contribs) 04:50, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Watch the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductions from 2017. Journey was inducted, and Johnathon Cain mentions that he survived a terrible school fire in Chicago during his acceptance speech. Pretty sure there weren't that many terrible fires in Chicago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:242:C000:739D:1F0:B700:EF29:217D (talk) 06:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

• Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 16:43, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070928024853/http://cms.firehouse.com/print/Politics-and-Law/Old-Lessons-Continue-To-Go-Unheeded/43$399 to http://cms.firehouse.com/print/Politics-and-Law/Old-Lessons-Continue-To-Go-Unheeded/43$399

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Looks good to me. Of course this is my first time checking a bot's work, so if another editor wants to have a second look, I'd appreciate it. NekoKatsun (talk) 16:33, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Inappropriate tone and style

Glowacki took injured children into her candy store beside the school to escape the winter chill while they awaited medical attention. Neighbors and parents raced into the school to rescue students on the lower floor or erect ladders outside that proved to be too short for the second floor. 74-year-old Ed Klock suffered a stroke while attempting to assist the children. Residents of houses along Avers Avenue opened their doors to provide sanctuary and warmth for the children.

"escape the winter chill ... raced into the school ... opened their doors to provide sanctuary and warmth" -- need I say more? EEng 04:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I do not understand this discussion. Although it's still officially autumn on Dec. 1, the weather could have been winter-cold for all I know.

Edit Request to Rescue section-Include Daniel Grimaldi

Add mention of Daniel Grimaldi's role in rescuing students during the fire. The olafire.com includes this regarding Daniel Grimaldi's role: "Daniel was returning home from nearby barbershop, when he saw children streaming out of the school. 'I ran to the school and went right in through the front door. It seemed all right there, so I ran upstairs. As soon as I got to the second floor, I saw smoke so thick you couldn't move. The boys and girls were screaming for help. I shouted "Grab my hand." Some of them grabbed my hand and I led them back down the stairs.' He soon found that his two children, Frank and Mary Anne, had safely escaped on their own." <ref>http://www.olafire.com/people.asp#G<ref> <ref>http://www.olafire.com/NewsFrame.asp?id=16<ref>

A quick search online produces references to Daniel Grimaldi in the Terre Haute Tribune, Indianapolis Star, and Miami Daily News papers as well. <ref>https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/105708357/<ref> <ref>https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/30264654/<ref> <ref>https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/83980246/<ref>Jakowalczyk (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2016 (UTC)JakowalczykJakowalczyk (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2017

Suggested revision is at the end of the message you are reading. In the section about Room 211 (one of the rooms in that school), there is this sentence at the end:

Sister Mary Helaine O'Neill, the teacher, was severely burned died on September 27, 1975.

I think I understand what information is being communicated, but the above sentence's structure is defective. Please change to the following (assuming it's correct -- I was able to find the names of the three nuns who died as result of this fire):

Sister Mary Helaine O'Neill, the teacher, was severely burned, but survived; she died on September 27, 1975. 167.102.56.146 (talk) 19:06, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

• Done Benign copy edit only. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 19:42, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2018

Request to add to chronicled list of books (in paragraph 3) and also in the Further Reading section:

The Immaculate Deception by Robert Chiappetta (Page Publishing, 2015) 173.15.99.217 (talk) 14:40, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Waddie96 (talk) 16:44, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Reliable Sources Added:

Publishers website: https://www.pagepublishing.com/portfolio-view/the-immaculate-deception/

Reader Reviews: https://www.amazon.com/Immaculate-Deception-Robert-Chiappetta/dp/1681391678#customerReviews — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.15.99.217 (talk) 18:39, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Dolotta (talk) 20:56, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

What is a "pipe chase"?

Wicki link says it"s a plumbing nipple. Wrong context. 2603:6000:D700:194D:757A:F2C5:8D33:BA36 (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

"Noun. pipe chase (plural pipe chases) A narrow space between walls through which plumbing is run." NekoKatsun (nyaa) 20:01, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Dead link - unfamiliar w/ editing

Under "Popular Culture," the "Our Obligation" link leading to the Internet Archive returns a message on the site that reads, "This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine" (as of 2023.1115) Laine515 (talk) 20:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done Normally, I'd add a {{Dead link}} template, but this is a bare URL in the article body that probably shouldn't be there. _signed, Willondon (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Access to a stairwell for Mary Helaine O'Neill's classroom

The Our Lady of the Angels personal website disputed an aspect attributed to Mary Helaine O'Neill (a nun of the BVM Sisters who taught at OLA), which did not happen because of a lack of a stairwell.

Firstly, O'Neill died in 1975 (in other words, no BLP considerations in this discussion):

• "O'Neill". Chicago Tribune. 1975-09-29. p. 10. - Clipping at Newspapers.com

There had been stories in newspapers stating that she bridged a stairwell to help students cross over such as in this opinion commentary:

• Kasper, Kerry Lester (2020-11-27). "Commentary: The power of the nuns at Our Lady of the Angels — then and now". Chicago Tribune. Her efforts were joined by those of fellow Sister Helaine O'Neill, who literally used her body as a human bridge for children to climb across over a flaming stairwell

However, if she had had access to a stairwell, then the death rate in her classroom would have been lower. From what I see in OLA-related articles, her classroom never did have access to a stairwell. The OLA personal website had stated that there was no evidence of where the statement came from.

The death toll of Room 211 (O'Neill's classroom) was 24.

• 24 is stated in: Barrage, Bob (2019-01-03). Birdville School; A Portrait of Small-Town America in the 20th Century. p. 322. ISBN 9781732956100. (while the source says 24 bodies were removed, at least one of those 24 students had died in the hospital...

William R. Edington (last student to die, was in Room 211) died in 1959:

• "Police Guard Church After School Fire". The Times. Streator, Illinois. 1959-08-11. p. 9. - Clipping at Newspapers.com.
• Death announcement: "Edington". Chicago Tribune. Chicago. 1959-08-11. p. F*. - Clipping at Newspapers.com

This is why opinion sections are not the best sourcing for Wikipedia: there is less, if any, fact checking of articles.

Nobody had inserted the O'Neill stairwell story in the article, but I made this section to be proactive. WhisperToMe (talk) 00:25, 14 January 2024 (UTC)