Talk:Operation Doomsday/GA1

GA Review

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I'll begin reviewing this article shortly. Ranger Steve (talk) 08:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Another good read, but a few points in detail below.

1. Writing

• I think the whole article might benefit from a quick copy edit, just to sort out some loose grammar and a few odd wordings. I'd be happy to do this if you like?

Yes, of course, feel free.

Will do, shortly

Lead

• Is there any reason that Franz Bohme is marked as a Nazi German in the infobox? I suspect this is unintentional but just wondered if it's to separate him from Quislings etc...

Blasted flagicons, yes, it was a mistake now rectified.

• Should Thorne be in the infobox?

Yes, sounds like a good idea, added in.

• In the lead, could the first sentance not be rewritten as something along the lines of:

Operation Doomsday was the air-transported portion of Operation Apostle, the Allied occupation of Norway, undertaken by the British 1st Airborne Division in May 1945 during World War II.

Cheers for that, seems better that way.

Background

• I believe 4th Para brigade may have been disbanded after MG rather than detatched. I'll check later.

Yes, that's confused me; 4th Brigade isn't mentioned in anything on Doomsday. If you know where they went, so I can add a quick sentence, that would be great.

• The 4th Parachute Brigade was disbanded and its battalions merged with those of 1st Parachute Brigade. Brigadier Hackett , when he escaped from Holland found 'my beloved Brigade was dead and buried; I had been its midwife and its sexton'. From P445 Middlebrook, Martin (1994). Arnhem 1944: The Airborne Battle. Viking. ISBN 0-670-83546-3. Hackett got back in Feb 45.

• Is there any reason for the options being called Rankin C and B (ie. without A)? Was there an earlier or discounted option as well?

Absolutely no idea, and Hart doesn't mention any other names. Chalk it up to daft/random codenames, I guess - why was Operation Tonga called Tonga?

• Can the phases section be reworded? It seems a little clumsy taking consecutive dates and seperating them between the start and end of the section. Something like:

The division's operations would be divided into 4 phases on 4 consecutive days. On the 8th....

Sorry, not entirely sure what you mean - could you elaborate a bit?

Scratch that; tried a rewrite, see if that's okay.

• That's exactly what I meant.

• Can the numbers involved for Apostle be expanded on slightly, seeing as there is no article on it yet. There's a lot of detail on the Airborne strength, but not much on the other units that number 30,000. Are they Norwegians?

Erm, all I really have is from Otway and Hart, which states the majority were Norwegian, with the rest composed of 1st ABN and some Americans. I'll see if there's anything else, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Hart focuses on Thorne as a whole, not Norway specifically, unfortunately.

• Fair enough. I imagine they were Norwegians, just wondered if there was any more info.

Occupation

• Maybe describe the reasons for delay before the late arrival in the second para.

I think I have, haven't I? The Heralds didn't make contact for whatever reason (this isn't specified) and so they delayed the operation 24 hours.

• Was thinking of a rewording along these lines:

Although the first phase had been scheduled for 8 May, no word had been received from the 'Heralds' and so Doomsday was postponed by twenty-four hours. However, they were successfully contacted the next day, and all but one of the transport aircraft belonging to the first phase took off and then landed in Norway on the 9th without incident.

Not a big deal honestly, just avoids repeating the arrival time, and puts the events in order (mention the 8th before the 9th).

• I'd always thought that all hands lost was a nautical ref? Not a problem though!

Actually, that's a point, but I can't think of anytuing better. If you have any ideas, feel free to alter it.

• Can there be a link to Vemork in the last para?

I can't see a Vermork in the article.

• That was my point. As this is the plant they attacked, wouldn't it be better to wikilink there instead of to the company?

Aftermath

• When did the men of Operation Apostle start to arrive?

'On 9 May, the first units belonging to Force 134 arrived in Norway to begin their occupation' is in the first para of the 'Arrival' section; it seems like they arrived in dribs and drabs, with Urquhart in charge until Thorne arrived with his headquarters at some point. I'll see when he arrived and add it in.

2. Factually accurate and verifiable

• I'm not as picky as some about refs, I can usually see where one ref covers several sentances. But it might be worth applying some specific refs to some specific sentences in the Aftermath section, and in the second para of the Arrival section.

Done, hopefully.

• Much better

• Dahl, Dover, Thompson and Ashley are in the Bibliography, but not in the footnotes.

Dahl is footnote 23, Dover and Thompson have been removed, Ashley is actually Hart, I corrected the journal entry.

• I'm evidently blind.

3. Broadness

• As I've mentioned above, a bit more detail on elements of Apostle, but otherwise fine.

I'll see what Hart has, but my other sources and Google Books are giving me nothing; I don't think there's much in english on it. I guess that's fair, it's not a major subject for english sources. Hart says the entire occupation gets a small footnote in Ellis' official history of the conflict.

• Can you mention what happened to the Nazi's a bit more. I know that Norwegian Resistance started openly arresting them from the 7th. Were there any atrocities?

Again, I'll see if Hart says anything, but otherwise I'm limited by the sources, sorry. Skinny87 (talk) 17:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

• No prob. Can only work with what we have. Ranger Steve (talk) 19:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

4. Neutral

Yep

5. Stable

Yep

6. Images

What? No watercolours?

I think that's it, but I'm going to re-read it again later and I might pick up the odd thing later. Otherwise, all good! Cheers Ranger Steve (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll start working on these immediately! Skinny87 (talk) 17:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Everything done except the details on what Force 134 was composed of, and when it arrived after 1st ABN. Will add that in tomorrow. Skinny87 (talk) 19:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Right, added everything I have about Force 134 and Apostle; there's nothing about Norwegian arrests or attacks on Germans apart from a far too vague bit about it being bloodless due to a good relationship between Thorne and the Milorg leader. I'll just add in that bit about 4th Para Brigade, and then hopefully that's it, unless you have any other comments. Cheers, Skinny87 (talk) 20:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

And that's been added! Skinny87 (talk) 20:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. My eyes are a bit bleary so I'll give it a final read and ce in the morning. Ranger Steve (talk) 22:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I've given it a copy edit, hope you approve but feel free to adjust if you don't. Either way it won't stop me passing it! Ranger Steve (talk) 12:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)