Talk:Nova music festival massacre
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Nova music festival massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard. |
 | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article has been mentioned by a media organization:
|
 | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered. |
 | Reference ideas for Nova music festival massacre The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
|
 | On 8 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Supernova music festival massacre. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
| On 6 January 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to Nova music festival massacre. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
"Civilians", "murder" and "hostages"
editSince some of my edits were undone I think it's prudent to talk about the POV, editorialized and inaccurate language used in this article at present. Right in the lead we have the following:
- As part of the attack, 364 civilians were murdered and many more wounded
None of the cited news articles call these 364 dead "civilians". Only some individual cases are called civilians. The BBC states that of the killed, 9 were US citizens, 1 a Canadian citizen, up to 10 UK citizens, 2 French citizens, 20 Thai citizens, 10 Nepalese citizens, 2 Filipino citizens, 1 German citizen, 1 Cambodian citizen, 1 Chinese-Israeli (let's count her as Chinese for this purpose). In total 57. I have excluded the mere missing cases. Therefore around 300 of those killed were Israelis. Do any sources say whether these people were members of the IDF or not? Due to the high conscription rate in Israel, of which only ultra-Orthodox and Arab Israelis are exempt, it would be false to label all 300 of these dead Israels "civilians" when, as members of the IDF, they were not civilians.
The second point here is on the use of the word "murder". Murder is a civilian crime, not a military one. Al-Qassam is Hamas' military wing, and Hamas is at present the only legitimate government of Gaza, having won the 2006 election. And again, a significant number of those killed were not civilians, but members of the IDF. Such killings are not murder. More importantly, we need RS that calls these killings "murders", not US-aligned editorialized newspaper articles.
Finally the word "hostages". Again, when it comes to military personnel, the correct term is prisoners of war. KetchupSalt (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
- Good point about the 364 casualties. Obviously, police officers are not civilians.
- As for the use of the word hostages, you'd be correct if any of the kidnapped invidviduals from the music festival were military personnel. But since none were, the word "hostages" is the correct word. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- You're just showing how much you don't understand, just by the sheer words used in your comment.
- Serving in the IDF is indeed mandatory, however only for 2.8 years (males) or 2 years (females). Once someone finishes his/her mandatory service he goes back to being a civilian, just like you wouldn't call an 80 years old retired cop a police personnel. The overwhelming majority of nova goers were not serving in the IDF nor the Israeli police at the time, therefore they were unarmed civilians. I again urge you to understand the difference between a civilian and a military personnel before commenting unbiased claims. And the word hostages fits perfectly, just like the people on the planes in the 9.11 attacks. 2A00:A040:1A3:A23D:6992:DF7A:36:7C3A (talk) 00:42, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Military law only applies when they are in active service engaged in combat. They are civilians when they are off-uniform. I don’t see your point and it doesn’t come off as being made in good faith. Steven1991 (talk) 17:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
POV & unsourced language removed
editOf the sources provided, none of them mentioned rape or torture, so I have removed those words. I have also removed the "by Hamas" phrase, when it's contradicted by the parts of this article detailing how friendly fire could have resulted in some deaths. I have also removed "murder" as a POV word, however, it is used in some of the sources listed, and for that reason, I'm okay with restoring it. JasonMacker (talk) 19:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Hammas should be called a terrorist group, it's not mentioned
edityes it was democratically elected but it's still a terrorist group. 147.235.194.106 (talk) 14:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
- Strongly agreed. Steven1991 (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
- "it's still a terrorist group" Says who? Dimadick (talk) 09:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
- Agree. It is a terrorist organization and it was a terrorist attack, not a “sudden attack “ (wtf is that?) 99.196.129.196 (talk) 10:50, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
Showing victims’ faces
editIt is extremely disrespectful to show uncensored video footage of the victims of the massacre. Please censor the video or remove it. 2001:4DF7:0:89F7:2C2B:1BF2:41CA:4885 (talk) 00:12, 15 October 2024 (UTC)