Talk:Newar people

Aryan/Mongoloid?

I have a belief that the first paragraph is not clear whether Newar is a liguistic, ethnic, or ethnolinguistic group. All of you who agree raise your hands, please. [Please stay silent if uncertain and donot feed the trolls.] Kushal one 18:27, 19 April 2006 (UTC) In the context of the statement Re: Newark (riot) it is a city in the state of New Jersey i also disagree that newar also belongs to indo-aryan communities.Why it is written so.If it is the case that some of them has got slightly pointed nose then what about tamangs,some magars,western tibetans.They also have got pointed nose.Due to globalization some non newars changed their caste into newar. On basis of that,Newars idemtity shouldn't be mistaken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.70.70.42 (talk) 09:08, 12 August 2014 (UTC) Please write Tibeto Burman first instead of indo-aryan at top of the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.70.70.42 (talk) 09:29, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

To all the interested people regarding the origins of Newar people. Newars are an amalgamation of -

1. Racial (Caucasians (Aryans) and Mongoloids, and some Dravidians) 2. Ethnic (Tibetan, Maithil/Madheshi, Khas, Indegenous/Tribal, Bengalis, Kirats, Rajputs, etc.) 3. Religious (primarily Hindus and Buddhists)

diversities. So one can never put "Newar" into one single scope as people do with all other ethnic/caste groups of Nepal. And it bugs me to no end when other people like you just assume and generalize Newars as just like any other Hill-tribes/indigenous people. Joan Lama, if you have actually met a credible number of Newars of the valley or outside of it, you will come to realize that there are several castes within Newars. Some say Jayasthiti Malla started this trend but actually caste was present in Nepal Valley way way longer than that, albeit it was limited only to the upper class people of that time. What Malla did was that he institutionalized caste structure for the entire population for the first time. These castes aren't just some silly divisions, but they are in fact a remnant of a civil system which is all but extinct in India. Newars still retain this age-old tradition of caste structure through their surnames, the work they do, the culture each of the castes follow. For example, when someone from a family dies, all Newars have to do 'kajkriya', but the number of days allocated for each caste is different according to their hierarchical position - like Jyapus have to do it for 11 days whereas Shresthas for 13 days. Similarly, Hindu Newars celebrate Bratabandha as if the boy is going to 'banbaas' like Lord Ram, whereas Buddhist Newars celerate it as if the boy is becoming the Buddha as is leaving his home. Did you also know that Brahman and Chathariya castes also celebrate Bratabandh like typical Indian Upanayana ceremony where the boys are given the janai doro?? This is just a small example to show you the vast difference in culture within the Newars themselves.

And when you say ALL Newars are Tibeto-Mongoloids, you are WRONG! Just look at Newar people's faces!! Yes, majority of Newar people have obvious Mongoild influences, no doubt. But again, their faces assisted further by 21st century science, plus written and oral histories, and other evidence shows that many of today's castes historically have come from India (thus pointing out to Indian origin) I am not saying there is not inter-mixture but just look at a Rajopadhyaya or a Mishra surname Newar and they look like they just came from Terai. If you didn't know these people existed then please do some research or look around instead of wasting your time here. Many Shresthas (Malla, Amatya, Pradhan, Joshi, etc.) have written histories of coming from other places only during the Malla era and most of them have sharp Indo-Aryan features comapared to rest of the Newars(not just physical features but also the difference in the cultural practises of these people.) These Newars strictly follow the caste system till today and are even strict in this case compared to Bahuns. I know for a fact that Newar Rajopadhyayas and Chathariyas put all Khas-Brahmins/Chetris as lower/fallen or degraded because for most part they are Brahmins or Chetris in name only and the actual work they do in the hills is farming, which according to Newari beliefs is the work only for Sudras.

And Indo-aryan features is not just limited to the two castes I mentioned, many other castes too have Indo-Aryan faces and historical backgrounds. But there is no doubt that Mongoloid features is the Majority face... Some Newars can look distinctly Mongoloids as well...But to say that Newars HAVE to look Mongoloid is plain wrong!

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The last few paragraphs are well written. I am curious about the following:
a) I believe during Lichhavi period there used to be extensive interaction with what is now Northern Bihar. We know historically Sanskirt/Pali was a popular language at that time in Nepal. What amount of Lichhavi influence is there genomically in current Newari population? Did Sanskritization of Newari started from that time?
b) Tibetan influence became very strong after Song-Tsang Gampo. Did it affect Newar civilization with it? similar to my question (a).
c) We know Gayasuddin Tukhlaq invaded Nepal and I have heard legends that women were made captive and men slaughtered and that there were many unfortunate children born of that tragic incidence. I find some Newars look similar to Bengalis (and viceversa, I am mistaken for Newar for example). Could this be the reason?
d) Contrast to "c", could it be that many Buddhist Bengladeshis fled to Nepal and became "Newars" after the fall of Buddhist Pala dynasty in Bengal?
Azizmasum (talk) 01:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azizmasum

I am a history student currently in UK and a Newar myself! SO happy to answer your queries Azizmasum

a. Lichhavis were most certainly the first major wave of "Indian" migration from the Indian plains to Kathmandu Velley. Before them the Kirat dynasty is largely believed to be the rule of the Tibeto-Mongoloid or even indigenous rule. But to find out their influence genomically among current Newars would be very difficult. There have been a few studies in the past showing Newars in general have a higher percentage of the R2 Y-DNA which is generally seen as a marker of South Asian gene. This definitely suggests Newars have South Asian blood but it is not clear whether they are exclusively result of the Lichhavi migration because during and after the Lichhavi era there have been migration of people into Kathmandu Valley from both sides (India and Tibet) and over the 2000+ years have been absorbed fully and their gene pool thoroughly mixed.

I'm not an expert in this but Sanskritization of Newar civilization definitely should have started from the Licchavi. After the Lichhavis all the ruling dynasties were of Indian origin, the rulers their Brahmin priests, and their Kshatriya courtiers were all of Indo-Aryan origin while the rest of the majority population were still largely either Kirat leftovers or indigenous to the area.

b. Tibetan influences have always had a strong presence. I don't know much about Song-Tsang Gampo and his influence on Newar civilization. But it is a fact that the Lichhavis and Mallas patronized the Buddhist shrines and temples and built many themselves. It also helps the kind of Buddhism Newars and Tibetans followed and still follow complimented each other in the sense of its monastic tradition and beliefs. It can be assumed that Newars had great respect for Buddhists and its monks since ancient times and Kathmandu was seen as a great learning centre for all Buddhists far and wide.

c. About Gayasuddin, could be... This is what I know about his. He was a great Bengal emperor who totally destroyed Kathmandu and all its Hindu and Buddhist temples. It is believed that Changu Narayan temple in Bhaktapur is the only temple that survived the destruction as it is situated atop a hill in the remote eastern part of the valley hidden by forests. He made slaves of all people of that time and made it compulsory for all women to wear the nose ring, the 'phuli' to signify his dominance over his new subjects. However he conquered Kathmandu in the dead winter and he couldn't endure such temperatures. Hence he left Kathamndu pretty soon after looting all its wealth. It is believed that such was the hate for this guy that even till today Newar women are barred from wearing the nose rings as is customary for all Hindu women; newar beliefs signifies the nose ring as a slave-culture so they avoid it altogether. Amid the total mess left by the Bengal emperor, it was Jayasthiti Malla, a Karnatak nobleman brought in to marry a Malla princess took to his advantage to become the next king where he thoroughly rearranged all Newar population which now is famous for being the introduction of caste structure in Nepal for the first time.

And again no studies done regarding the relationships between Bengalis and Newars. Yes, many Newars do look like Bengalis or vice-versa. There are many Newari surnames that are similar to that of the Bengalis- Rajopadhyaya, Kayastha, Dwivedi, Vaidya, Kapali, Mali, and I know in the past some Newars used to have surnames like Dwivedi, Bandopadhyaya, Barman.. So there definitely has to be a connection somewhere down the line but none that we can verify yet.

d. I have heard this theory but very little historical evidence if any. But there is no doubt that migration must have occurred to Kathmandu Valley. When the Shakya and Koliya dynasty fell, some migrated to Kathmandu valley and people with Shakya surname are believed to be the descendants of those people today. Some Vajrachryas are known to be originally Kanyakubjia Brahmins who when came to Kathmandu changed their religion. Likewise, Rajopadhyayas too have written records of being originally from Kannauj, and so do other high caste Hindu Newars. My point is if there were any major migration from the Bengal region, there should be written records of it somewhere. There are records of the arrival of Muslim merchants from Kashmir and Capuchin monks as well, so if you dig up some hsitorical records or even family histories, you may ultimately find someone tracing back to Bengal.

---

Thank you for the excellent and thoughtprovoking writeup. Very useful and enlightning. Reading various magazines and talking to lay-people (including many Khas Bahuns), there was a general impression that Khas gave Newars the Indic heritage. But looks like it doesnt seem to be the case. Can I assume Newars have more in common with people from South/Terai than to Khas people? (I am only focused on Indo-Aryan heritage point of view). Conversely, it looks like plains-people from Bihar/Bengal have more in common with Newars than with any other Nepali group (including Khas). (Since looks like Khas have more commonality with Uttarakhand and Western Indian areas). Is my impression correct? Please illuminate.Azizmasum (talk) 02:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Your welcome Azizmasum You definitely can say Newars do have Indic heritage. Mind you though Newars as a general group also have significant amount of non-Indic blood which is further evidenced by the language itself which as our friend Sherapaofsherpas has been incessantly pointing out is a Tibetan-type language which only proofs further that the original aborignal Newars came from Tibet or the north instead of India. Indic elements are only "recent" events. Although it is important to point out that normal day to day Newari is highly influenced by Sanskrit words and a Nepali speaker wouldn't find it difficult to get the gist of the conversation through the many loan-words Newari has from Sanskrit and Maithili. About Khas people (we Newars did not differentiate between Khas Bahuns and Chhetris, we just called them Khey which basically means Khas. Nowadays though we differentiate Bahuns as Khey-Bramhu and Chhetris as Khas only.)

Again no concrete proofs but yes it can be deduced that Newars have more Terai/Maithili/Bihari blood than Khas blood. This is not to say that Newars do not have Khas blood- during Malla regime, there used to be major trade between Khas people and Newar people as Kathmandu Valley was a centre of all things in the past, much like it is even today. Any Khas people who lived in Kathmandu for a long time would be ultimately absorbed into Newar society as I have said before. Khas and Kumaoni people had their presence but it definitely would have been less influential largely due to the vast geographical distance between Kathmandu and those regions. It is absolutely true that Newars and today's Madhesi (I mean the general Tiruth region of Terai/Bihar) population are the oldest inter-ethnic ties Nepal's people have had. Madhesi Bhramins were worshipped and given highest honor, Madheshi noble clans were invited to be kings and rule the land, Shakyas and Koliyas were welcomed and given refuge, among many many other examples. In contrast the Khas and Madhesi have very little contact from the beginning again understandably due to geography.

Khas Bahuns try to portray Newars as part of 'their' heritage largely due to the fact that Newars' larger religion, traditions, cultures match with the Bahuns/Chhetris. This is helped by the numerical stronghold of the Khas as Khas people's population in Nepal is around 40% while Newars is around 6% at best. Of course after unifaction, Newars no matter what caste were subdued by these new ruling group. The two catalysts though that made Khas Bahuns feel superior of themselves than Newars is that Newars (even the Newar Brahmins) have always been alcohol drinkers and non-vegetarians. That was enough for them to subdue Newars. But again Prithvi Narayan Shah tried to marry Bhupatindra Malla's daughter and was rejected for being a 'Khey' - back then a lower caste people for the Newars. So just goes to show you caste in Nepal is synonymous with Power and Influence according to changing times. Since Newars were prohibited from governmental and military jobs, most high-caste Newars settled with doing trade and business and lower-castes Newars started farming. This is the reason why Bahuns/Chhetris portray Newars in the 3rd and 4th varnashram because Newars filled the gap of Vaishyas and touchable-Shudras as Khas people themselves do not have their Vaishya and Shudra people which is another large hole in their claims of coming from pure Vedic background as all north Indic-societies have the 4 varnas. This is again laughably moronic because except in Kathmandu most Brahmins/Chhetris were farmers themselves in the past. Nepalichoro255 (talk) 12:03, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Most of you are talking about face.If one says he is tamang we see him as like we have been believing to be but if he says he is joshi then our mind automatically looks for similarities with indo-aryan people.Why most of Maharjan's faces are dark black as like indians?How the was word maharjan formed ?One more thing is that Maharjan's favorite cultural food Chatamari is eaten as masala dosa in india as their own cultural food.Let's spend time in looking faces of newar,tamang,indians and chinese people.Complete advanced research has not been done yet.Jojolpa (talk) 05:07, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Newar food - how is it different from what Bahuns and Chhetris eat?

I think it's not the same thing, but it is difficult to see this in the article which mentions foods and spices that many different ethnic groups use. I never lived in a Newar community, but I think they eat a lot of buffalo meat, which Bahuns and Chhetris avoid. Also beaten rice ("Chyura"). 76.80.9.100 09:31, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Its not just Buffalo meat. The Baji has different varieties out of which Chyura or Simple Baji is just one. There are different varieties of wines (thwon, aila), sweets (anarsha, laakhaamari, nimki, roth, maalpa, gwaaraamari), delicacies (chatamari, baaraa), meat items(chhwelaa, kachilaa, haku chhwelaa etc) and many more. Quite interestingly, from my side of the world, how is it same to what the bahuns and chhetris eat? They are very different lest you take them down to the level of amino acid, glycogen and fatty acids!--Eukesh 13:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Many readers won't understand that Nepal Bhasa and Nepali are very different!

Can this difference please be clarified?

Also I think Newar culture subverts strict Hinduism in many ways: eating "Chyura" to avoid caste issues when eating, the ceremony where girls are married to a tree, which gets around the Hindu notion that women should only marry once and should be burnt along with their husband! 76.80.9.100 09:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• Well, thats why we have an encyclopedia, to enlighten people in such subtle differences. Perhaps, they could understand better if you were to speak of Hinduism in a better manner!--Eukesh 19:08, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

the word 'Bhasa' from Nepal Bhasa is not used word in Nepal bhasa.The word'Bhasa' derived from sanskrit(indo-aryan) so peopld may mistake the language 'Nepal Bhasa' to be related to indo arayan but don't be confused 'Nepal Bhasa' is purely one of the developed tibetan language different from indo-aryan's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.70.70.42 (talk) 09:36, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Source cited #3

This is what used to be there (where I edited in a citation needed inline note) within brackets: " Central Bureau of Statistics, Ramshah Path, Kathmandu, Nepal: Statistical Pocket Book Nepal 2002 " But it led nowhere. Ed8r (talk) 20:47, 1 October 2009 (UTC)-

Source missing??

what is the source of this? "Newar reign over the valley and their sovereignty and influence over neighboring territories ended approximately 250 years ago with the conquest of the Kathmandu valley in 1769 by the Gorkhali Shah dynasty founded by Prithvi Narayan Shah. Newars were engaged in business between Tibet and Moguls in India. So, to affect the Mogul empire's treasury, British East India Company supplied weapons and advice to Prithvi Narayan Shah, who in return would conquer Kathmandu Valley and put an end to the trade between Tibet and Moguls of India. Systematic brutal suppression of the Newar people was pursued for generations during early dynastic rule in order to discourage the Newar people from any political aspiration." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.41.241.159 (talk) 16:09, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Newa People? Wrong title

Newars are such diverse group in terms of ethnic origin. It would be better to put the title as "Newa Nation" rather than "Newa People" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.199.14.195 (talk) 00:20, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Someone is " Vandalizing " the Newa page of Wikipedia

Someone has been inserting profanities ( words and line ). I deleted a word, a line, a link and a line in in Vietnamese. Please be vigilant and delete and maybe "confront"/report the coward/s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BobbyCtkr (talk • contribs) 02:35, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's improve it

Greetings to all my predecessors who have worked so hard on this article. I believe it is a major subject; and considering its size and scope, maintaining absolute coherence is very difficult. I have tried to clean up things here and there, and will continue to do so. I would like to hear your comments. Also, I would stress on online references. The title of the article is also a subject for discussion. Karrattul (talk) 11:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion

I propose deleting the sectons Notable Newas, Newar Prime-Minister and Newar Politicians for the following reasons: notability not established, list would be too long, irrelevant and undue emphasis on politics. Karrattul (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Newah

Replacement with Newah everywhere is factually and etymologically incorrect. For example, what sense does this sentence make after being replaced with Newah? "According to another explanation, the words Newah and Newah are vulgarisms arising from the mutation of P to V, and L to R.[12]" Where are the "P to V, and L to R"?

Also, the reference cited has been misrepresented by the replacements. So reverting to old version. Karrattul (talk) 06:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Newa Hinduism

This article is currently a redirect, as the content was at first simply a copypaste from other articles here, apparently not enough to warrant a full article on its own, and then recreated as content without any references. anyone who wants to create an article on Newa Hinduism should start in their user space, build up sourced content that shows its justification as an article separate from both the Newa People and Hinduism, then replace the redirect with that material and add the "main article" template to this article. I dont doubt that material exists on this subject, but the content should first be sourced, before being added.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 19:08, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Source needed!

What is the source of the follwing passage:

As part of the funeral, offerings are made to the spirit of the deceased, the crow and the dog. The crow and the dog represent ancestors and the god of death. Subsequently, offerings and rituals are conducted four, seven, eight, 13 and 45 days following death and monthly for a year and then annually. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.211.162.42 (talk) 13:22, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Religions of Newa people

Exactly when did the Newa people convert to Buddhism and Hinduism? All I got is this Anything Buddhism Today: Theravada Buddhist Movement in Nepal article that doesn't cite any sources. Komitsuki (talk) 11:26, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Found the source. Engaged Buddhism (THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF THERAVĀDA BUDDHIST UNIVERSITIES). Komitsuki (talk) 13:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

NEWARS ARE MOSTLY BLOODLY MONGOLIAN AND TIBETAN

Hi,I am joan. I saw that this article writes that some newars came from indoaryan community.why is this written?If this is only the case with some newars having their nose slightly pointed then what about tamang,kirat,some magars,west tibetan.they also have got pointed nose.it seems some nonnewar changed their caste into newar.on the basis of that Newars shouldn't be mistaken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joan lama (talk • contribs) 10:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC) plz delete and rewrite 'Newars are originally and mostly from tibeto burman.'

@Joan lama: The "Aryan" was missourced. I deleted it. Also, I don't see a reason for Aryans to shift to a Sino-Tibetian language. --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 22:53, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Paanch Chare

Merge into festivals section? This isn't sourced and I cannot find it online. I'm not sure if this is a misspelling of Pahan_Charhe. As I'm not Nepalese myself, making this merge request with the hopes that some expert might see this page and make a better decision on what should happen to this stub. ηoian ‡orever ηew ‡rontiers 04:24, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Someone is Vandalizing this page

106.51.132.199 (talk) has been vandalizing this page along with the following pages: Shrestha, Shresthas, Newar Caste System with racially inciteful statements with absolutely no references. He has also performing an edit war

Hope the moderators look upon this and partake a response to that user.

Fut.Perf. ☼Ogress _smash!

Nepalichoro255 (talk) 13:19, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

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Nomination of Portal:Newar for deletion

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Newari which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 18:04, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

I am raj

Neawri 27.34.49.5 (talk) 03:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Newar or Newa?

There is no consistency, but Newar predominates here:

• Newar people
• Newar language
• Newar Buddhism
• Newar Islam
• Newar art
• Newar literature
• Newar numerals
• Newar traditional clothing
• Newar caste system
• Newar window

• Newa Hinduism
• Newa architecture
• Newa music
• Newa dance
• Newa cuisine
• Newa festivals

Is there a reason to prefer one or the other? Should the Newa articles be moved? Srnec (talk) 19:43, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Ethnic group

Defining Newar people as Tibeto-Burman ethinc group oversimplfies newar people's complexity. Newar is a ethnolinguisgtic group, so categorising it to one group is not correct and its quite controversial. The older version of text was written by historian Gellner, David N., so I don't what is the problem with that text. Newars are a linguistic and cultural community of primarily Indo-Aryan and Tibeto-Burman ethnicities and shares Nepal Bhasa as their common language. The edit war will be start because neither Nepalese hisotrians nor people are agreed about newar people being a one ethnic groups. The complete advanced research has not been done yet so putting it to older version is non-controversial and better. 2600:8806:4004:4300:20CD:C9F6:B8B0:3661 (talk) 01:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

"Newar" are a Tibeto-Burman "ethnolinguistic" or ethnic group because "Nepal Language" is their native language which clearly falls under Tibeto-Burman branch of the Sin-Tibetan language family. 103.42.156.130 (talk) 07:49, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

It is true that the Newar people speak a language that falls under the Tibeto-Burman branch, but their ethnic identity is complex and multifaceted. However, ethnicity is more than just language; it also involves cultural, historical and social factors. Newars have a unique cultural identity that is shaped by their history, geography and interactions with various groups, including Indo-Aryan and Tibeto-Burman populations. Newars have a historical and social identity that cannot be reduced to a single linguistic classification. In fact, Newars have been shaped by a variety of influences, including Indo-Aryan, Tibeto-Burman and other cultural and linguistic traditions, making it important to recognise and respect their self-identity and cultural distinctiveness, and not define them only by their language. 2600:8806:4004:4300:597F:FFA:366C:736D (talk) 22:58, 31 May 2024 (UTC)