Talk:New Testament people named Mary

Why this page

This seems an encyclopedic subject, and as so often inspires my contributions here, it's information I was seeking and could not easily find in Wikipedia.

I considered adding a section to one of the many pages that already surround the subject, but it was not obvious which. I also considered creating a list of page, but the information exceeds a simple list. And I searched for the information of course, and it may still be there already, somewhere, but if it's so hard to find, it may as well not be there.

So, assuming that others will want this information too, this page sets out to make it easily available. Andrewa (talk) 21:08, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Possible merges

Mary (Romans 16:6) is very short [1] and it's not obvious to me how to grow it. Similarly Mary, mother of John Mark [2] although the latter does have four other language versions.

If and after (and only if and after) this page is moved to the main namespace, one or both of these other articles might usefully be merged into it and redirected. Just a thought. Andrewa (talk) 21:40, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

That move has of course now occurred. Andrewa (talk) 19:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

What this page should be

Short

At least, as short as possible. There are main links to more detailed articles. This is an overview of the relationships between the various people by the name of Mary in the New Testament. Andrewa (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

The balance between an overly comprehensive list of See also pages and a focussed one is particularly problematical. As I write there is a special See also section for Mary mother of Jesus only. The most important links to other Wikipedia articles are of course the main templates. See also links should only be there if it's likely that they will save many people time in navigation, and not duplicate the lists in the main articles. Andrewa (talk) 14:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

For the same reason, there is currently no External links section. Those that don't qualify as references are best left to the main articles. Andrewa (talk) 14:22, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Focussed

People who are not (explicitly) named Mary are mentioned only in the context of a tradition which identifies them with someone who is so named. Andrewa (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Balanced but comprehensive

All notable traditions should be mentioned, and POV avoided of course. Andrewa (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Sourced

Of course. Both for accuracy and to avoid WP:OR, and because helping people find these sources is one of the important things encyclopedias do. Andrewa (talk) 15:56, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Readable

In particular, there's a balance between citing Bible references inline and as footnotes. Both have their place here. To attempt consistency by eliminating the footnote Bible references leads to wordiness, while eliminating all inline Bible references leads to awkwardness. In either case, readability suffers, with the only gain being a (mistaken in my view) appearance of elegance. Andrewa (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Zero base

Able to be understood by people from all traditions and from none. Andrewa (talk) 14:06, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Weasel free

Terms such as generally accepted are acceptable in an overview article, but only if used accurately and sourced. (This is the major outstanding issue as I write). Andrewa (talk) 14:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

How many

By my count there could be as many as nine, seven as listed (1 Mary, mother of Jesus 2 Mary Magdalene 3 Mary of Bethany 4 Mary of Clopas 5 Mary, mother of James 6 Mary, mother of John Mark 7 Mary of Rome) but Mary mother of James could be up to three different people (which is why the longer name Mary mother of James the younger is used to refer to the person generally believed to be the one in all but two of the relevant verses).

On the other extreme, we have at least two for many reasons, and traditionally at least three. I wonder what the lowest scholarly conjecture is? Roman Catholic tradition reduces the seven listed above to five by identifying Mary Magdalene with Mary of Bethany, and Mary of Clopas with Mary mother of James, while Protestants generally separate the former pair but not the latter.

On closer inspection, it reduces to four. Andrewa (talk) 21:26, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

It would be great to source all of this. I don't think it's all encyclopedic without a source, some of it probably just scrapes over into WP:OR. Andrewa (talk) 00:54, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Mary Salome

Unsure as to how to treat Mary Salome. It seems a complete fabrication to call her Mary, but that's not up to us to decide... if notable writers give her this title, then she should be mentioned, and the claim sourced. Andrewa (talk) 21:05, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Done. Wasn't as difficult as I thought, and gives far better balance to the article, which was reading a bit too Protestant I thought. Andrewa (talk) 21:24, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Focus and Structure

This article is primarily about what the Bible says (hence the title New Testament people named Mary). It refers to various traditions to describe the ways in which the various passages that refer explicitly to Mary are interpreted and in particular related.

The sections and subsections all therefore focus on particular Bible passages rather than on particular traditions that relate these passages, where possible grouping the passages according to their verbal content rather than according to what some particular tradition might hold to be their semantic content (or meaning). This is essential to avoid giving undue weight to some particular tradition, and also makes it possible to add other traditions without destroying the article structure, see below.

The subject is complex, so the article structure is extremely important.

Most of the main article links explore these particular traditions more fully, and this is also logical. Andrewa (talk) 19:38, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Other traditions

The article currently refers explicitly to Roman Catholic and Protestant traditions. It would be good to add Orthodox and other traditions. Andrewa (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Feast days

These are useful in identifying whether or not we're talking about the same tradition or person, so are on-topic IMO.

It's a bit of a worry however that RC tradition seems to identify Mary of Clopas with Mary, mother of James the younger, but gives each a feast day. The explanation may be that these feast days vary with geography, as they do in the Anglican calendar, see List of Anglican Church calendars. Andrewa (talk) 17:11, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

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