Talk:Medeshamstede

It's 'Medeshamstede', not 'Medeshampstede'!

I don't know how the 'p' got in here, but it needs removing! It's a modern feature, not found in good primary sources, to which this inherently historical article must refer. I'd remove it now, if it weren't for the numerous links already leading here. I might get around to it, if no-one else does. Beyond that, this article needs some pretty serious attention. Nortonius (talk) 12:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

As per the above, assuming it is correct (I wouldn't know);

• in Medeshampstede 1st line, is the abbreviation 'recte' (meaning 'correctly') acceptable?
• If the name was wrong, then the page needs a move.

Nortonius has started correcting the spelling on other pages, but that means that they are currently linking to this via a redirect.

I suspect the (recte) part could be deleted, the definition kept if there's a citation for it, and the page moved...and then links checked?

 Chzz  ►  17:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed! Now you mention it, I have no idea of the acceptability of 'recte' (not an abbreviation, btw) in Wikipedia; but a good solution to the issues you raise would in any case make it redundant. Nortonius (talk) 17:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Page Moved 2008-05-08 --  Chzz  ►  20:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Investigation showed;

Google matches are; Medeshamstede 3290 Medeshampstede 448

and a citable reference was found from an AD664 Anglo-Saxon charter.

I have therefore moved Medeshampstede to Medeshamstede.

I will track down, check and correct links.

Linking pages amended as follows;

• Peterborough - had already been changed (earlier today)

• Wulfhere of Mercia - had already been changed (earlier today)
• Medeshampstede (redirect page) - correctly redirects to Medeshamstede

• Peterborough Cathedral - changed 1 link
• Flag Fen - changed 1 link

• Talk:Peterborough - note and explanation added
• Deusdedit of Canterbury - changed 1 link

• Shifnal - changed 1 link
• Medeshampstead (redirect page) - changed to redirect to moved page

• Medehampstede - disambig page - changed 1 link
• Talk:Medeshamstede - talk page, comments already added to explain move

 Done

--  Chzz  ►  20:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant work, I'm dead chuffed! Not just that it's been changed, but that you took on all that work, on the basis of my foot-stamping! An inspiration, surely...! Nortonius (talk) 03:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Revision

Chrisieboy, I notice that you've recently done some work on this article - great that someone's showing an interest! So, I hope you and previous editors won't be offended if I start doing some fairly major revision, now that the issue of the stray 'p' in 'Medeshampstede' has been sorted out. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 09:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Not at all, I'm a Peterborian, but not an expert in this field so I very much value your contribution. Chrisieboy (talk) 12:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. Not Peterborian myself, and it's been years since I was last there - the highlight of my last visit was getting one of the Cathedral clergy to let me look at the supposed archaeological remains of Medeshamstede, under the floor of the crossing. :o) Nortonius (talk) 12:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hugh Candidus

The article mentions a 12th century Hugh Candidus. We already have an article on Hugh of Remiremont, also known as Hugh Candidus who lived in the 11th century. Are they two individuals sharing a name or do we have a chronological mistake? Dimadick (talk) 11:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

What a wonderful coincidence! But nothing more, I'm afraid. Hugh Candidus of Peterborough was a monk there, around the 3rd quarter of the 12th century, and his epithet 'Candidus' is not of contemporary origin. Nortonius (talk) 11:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Citations

• I have tried to improve the citations, because that's what this article is all about. I have amended the citation style for the first 2 entries of The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-Names, and "A History of the County of Northampton: Volume 2" with the link to the online info.

I hope you'll agree this is clearer; if not feel free to undo it.

I think the whole article will be much better once the sources are clear.

--  Chzz  ►  17:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

• nortonius, why did you remove the ref to Anglo-Saxon Charter S 68 Archive Peterborough? Surely that's a good source...perhaps it should go back in, somewhere in the article?

--  Chzz  ►  17:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it all looks good to me! To be honest, I was already thinking of it as you having handed me a pattern to work to! Don't worry about the removed ref, using it properly needs a bit of thought, but it's going back in, today - it's work in progress, and I just had to field a visit from my parents! :o) By the way, I know about sandboxes, but I'd prefer to edit locally using a word processing app - trouble is, I've found I need the exact font to avoid gibberish, do you know which this is? I haven't been able to find any reference for it. Never mind I found it. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 17:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Ps. I just noticed page references in citations: I normally put them as e.g. 'p. 302'; and it seems a little unfortunate to give ISBN numbers for, apparently, a US edition of Ekwall - I know next to nothing about doing this, but I'd have thought a UK edition would be better, or put that in as well? Any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nortonius (talk • contribs) 17:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This article is developing really well. I was going to suggest it needed an image, and you've put one in - fantastic! Re. citations - I don't believe it matters which edition you use, but it is quite important to give a page reference for each wherever possible. Glad you've sorted your fonts out, and I would recommend taking your edits into a sandbox, to avoid confusion with too many edits over a short time. You could always put a comment on this talk page to let others know you're working on the article. If I can be of any further input, probably best to ask me on my talk page, as I may miss updates here. Keep up the good work! --  Chzz  ►  01:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Again, thank you! About citations, I'll always home in on a page reference when it's needed! And, don't worry, I won't consider the job done unless I keep on top of them, but the styles of citations are becoming rather chaotic. I must admit, I'm finding it difficult to stick to the style you introduced: I will have a closer look at help for this, and try to work out a consistent plan, but for example I find it's often necessary to indicate within a citation exactly what the citation is for, and at the moment I'm finding that it calls for a rather old school presentational style - which nonetheless is still in common use in academic historical publications! As I say, I'll get on top of it somehow...

About the multiple edits, that seems to be something to do with the way my brain works. I'll write something, check and re-check it, post it - and then keep spotting lots of little things I want to change! I've always been like that, I'm afraid. OCD?! ;o) I can see that it might confuse others (e.g. you!), if they're following it closely, so I'd be sorry for that; but it doesn't confuse me - so long as it's not against some policy somewhere? I like the idea of a comment about work in progress. Getting the name right seems to have opened the floodgates for me! Thanks for all the help, and the offer of further help if needed, I'll come calling if I feel the need - and obviously I've already found your input very welcome! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 01:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I've been wrestling with this citations issue. But I think I know what I'm going to do.

My problems are:

• The style whereby you have the author/editor's name followed by publication date in brackets is used in books/journals to give you something to look up in a bibliography, but it doesn't have that function here (actually I find it annoying in print, as it means you have to flip pages to follow it - very distracting). But I can see that the style 'Name (date)' works in a citation of an external link, if it's placed after the link.
• Also, that style leaves no room for further explanation in citations. As I see it, if I were writing a paper, I could pursue further explanations in the text; but, this being an encyclopedia, the text should only give the essential argument, with citations being (obviously) for those who want further information.
• It might be helpful to give ISBN numbers, but here I think it would clutter an article that is already, and inevitably, heavy in citations. ISBN numbers are ever so easy to find, if you want them - but I usually don't, I go to the library, the bookshop or (gasp!) somewhere like Amazon, that's their business. But ironically wouldn't a bonus of leaving ISBN numbers out mean that your library, bookshop etc. would automatically find the nearest source for you? And, as things are, my normal preference is to name the publisher, not the place.

So, I think I'm going to try to use the MHRA style as a guide, as it's appropriate for the subject, it sort of fits what I'm trying to do - and, to be honest, it's closer to what I'm used to. I'll still deviate from it in citations, though: it asks that you avoid further explanations in citations, but I've already said how I see that issue, and even when writing a paper it's often unavoidable, and people have been glossing texts for longer than I know about. Do I sound like someone who doesn't like rules, except when it suits him?! Anyway, no offence intended to anyone, and constructive comments welcome, as always. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 21:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Work In Progress

You might notice that I've been involving myself in the Medeshamstede article since May 8 2008. I started a ball rolling by trying to get the name changed from "Medeshampstede" to "Medeshamstede", which was taken up and effected by Chzz; but obviously anything I do with it is on top of the previous input of others, and I've kept pretty much everything that was already there, though qualifying it where I felt it necessary.

As this article still needs a fair amount of work, I'd be grateful if any concerns or queries you might have are expressed here, or on my talk page, rather than through undoing any of my edits - until it looks like I've run out of steam, anyway! That might take a few days, or longer... For example, I'm aware that there are inconsistencies in the presentational styles of citations, but I won't consider myself done until I've straightened them out. (Pretty much done that) Obviously it's not up to me if you want to add anything yourself, though you might find me querying it here, or just diving straight in if it's a matter of basic spelling or grammar. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 02:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

re. Hugh

Possibly a useful link;

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=teWXo-Sl9hMC&pg=RA2-PA274&lpg=RA2-PA274&dq=hugh+candidus+peterborough&source=web&ots=xqQAv2zoha&sig=EgrChNlg5raj2-o_ylTrX6isbsc&hl=en —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chzz (talk • contribs) 06:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm - a very useful link, and there are a few things I could say about Gransden and Hugh Candidus; but a description of Hugh Candidus would belong under Peterborough Abbey, which doesn't actually have its own page - oh boy...! I can see a separate page for Peterborough Abbey (no, really?!), with what would be a longish section describing its written archive for the Anglo-Saxon period, it's wonderful stuff. A page on Peterborough Abbey wouldn't be too hard to do, but it would be fairly involved (and I'd only be any use covering the period 10th-12th century) - I'll pass on that for now... ;o) Nortonius (talk) 08:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Physical remains; "abbey"

Good to see that someone else is taking an interest, Nedrutland! As your new section indicates, there is more to say about this, so watch out for any edits I might make there!

• Maybe the section should be headed "Physical remains, archaeology", as most of what will hopefully be covered there will eventually be about archaeological stuff? I'll alter it to that, do say if you don't like it.
• The reference to Rosemary Cramp needs a citation - she might supersede the last thing I saw (sadly I forget where, but I'll probably find it again in due course), which said the date of the Hedda Stone was in dispute.
• The reference to Hugh Candidus will need some thought, as he was writing about this in the 12th century - but you're right to bring Wilfrid into this.
• I think we ought to avoid using the word "abbey" in this article, except in reference to the 10th century and later (e.g. Peterborough Abbey): "monastery" is generally used for similar English institutions prior to the 10th century, on the basis that, simplifying it a bit, early sources use "monasterium" or "mynster", and "abbey" ("abbatia") is only general in later sources ("abbodrice" is found earlier, but really it means "abbacy", which obviously is different); maybe also because we know very well what the later institutions were, but often can only theorise about exactly how earlier institutions were run. That's a little inconsistent, in that rulers of such early places are generally referred to as "abbots" - but there it is!

I'll do some editing on the new section now, have a look to see what you think. While I'm here, I'm pretty sure that the source that told you Durobrivae/Water Newton belonged to Peterborough is wrong: it belonged to Thorney Abbey in 1086 and later, and there's nothing that I know of to say it ever belonged to Medeshamstede/Peterborough before, so I'll be taking it out. If you find a reliable source that you can cite, and means it should go back in with a citation, feel free. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 13:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment

I note a number of places where I would improve the punctuation. I will read a paper copy over the week-end and try to enter some edits next week. Question: is there a volume of the English Place Name Society on this area which might be useful? In a quick scan of the notes I did not see any mention. Ron B. Thomson (talk) 18:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

That would be good, thanks: I'll be interested to see what you come up with. Beware of my ongoing edits, obviously - I suppose that goes without saying! There is indeed an EPNS volume, but I don't have access to it - J. E. B. Gover, A. Mawer and F. M. Stenton, The Place-Names of Northamptonshire, EPNS 10. (Cambridge, 1933). Given their publication dates, presumably the source I have used, Ekwall, was aware of the EPNS volume. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 19:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Recent source

This article would benefit from some re-writing - especially in the section "Monastic colonies" - to take into account Kelly, Susan E., Charters of Peterborough Abbey (Anglo-Saxon Charters 14), OUP, 2009. Kelly offers some striking new interpretations. Nortonius (talk) 17:40, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Re recent edit/revert

Re this diff, apologies to the editor concerned, I messed up using Twinkle and failed to save an edit summary - this was unintentional! Anyway, I reverted because the "daughter churches" would not have been acquired as a "group", and because the expression "daughter church" is normal, see "Mother Church". But, especially see the previous section here, "Recent source": if Susan Kelly's edition of Peterborough's Anglo-Saxon charters is taken into account here, the whole subject of Medeshamstede's "daughter churches" becomes deeply questionable, and so there's probably no point expending effort tinkering with it, when the chances are that it needs a thorough re-write. Hope that makes sense. Nortonius (talk) 10:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Medeshamstede/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

I think this article should be rated 'B' class, or at the very least 'Start' class, following the considerable work put into improving it, chielfy by user:Nortonius. The work is still in progress; after a time, it should be worthy of a GA review. --  Chzz  ►  17:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:10, 16 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 23:35, 29 April 2016 (UTC)