Talk:Marsha P. Johnson/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2018

Please let me edit this article. Some of the information is incorrect. Transpans (talk) 23:08, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. — IVORK _Discuss 00:20, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Bias in Marsha's role in Stonewall

This article is obviously edited to uphold the myth that Marsha initiated Stonewall riots. If Marsha explicitly said in an interview that she did not start it, and she arrived 40 minutes to the scene after the riots start, how could she even count as "one of the first to fight back in the clashes"? 40 minutes late don't even qualify her as being the "one of the second to fight back". If the rest of the article does not question her own words and present them as simple facts, how come her own words about Stonewall not presented as facts here, but simply as a dispute to popular beliefs (and the popular beliefs are presented as facts)? Also even if we include other people's accounts of the Stonewall, we should also include words of people who say they did not see Marsha in that event, for example Stonewall Vet Miss Major: I Did Not See Sylvia Rivera or Marsha Johnson At The Stonewall Inn (Stonewall vets Miss Major and Bob Kohler both deny seeing Marsha at Stonewall). Someone should edit the Stonewall Uprising section carefully. Also remove or rephrase "Johnson was one of the prominent figures in the vanguard of the Stonewall uprising in 1969" from the summary paragraph, this summary is purely propaganda driven if even Marsha denied she was the "vanguard".70.28.95.29 (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

The "vanguard" quote is sourced to one of the best sources we have on the riots. Quite a few people who were without a doubt there and were interviewed remember Johnson being present on the first two nights, and in the front lines of the conflict, even if Marsha didn't throw the shot glass. (By Johnson's own account, cited in the article, that story is untrue.) I think the way it is now is good, as it says what time Johnson arrived. , but it might make sense to remove the shot glass line section of that bit; it may make for a colorful story, but now that we know it's untrue, it may be best to delete just that bit.

The issue with Griffin-Gacy's account is that it contradicts the accounts of so many Stonewall vets, which line up with one another, who are all known to the larger community, and seem to have never heard of Griffin-Gacy until a few years ago. We don't actually have WP:RS sources that Griffin-Gacy was there, and Griffin-Gacy gave a description of the interior of the bar that was inaccurate. If you have some better sources than that Facebook post (which MGG later deleted), please provide them. Check out the talk page of the Stonewall article for more on this - we evaluated all the sources there. So far there simply hasn't been enough corroborating evidence for Griffin-Gacy's account that I'm aware of. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 23:28, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

ETA - Actually, re-reading that section more carefully, the way it's worded now, about the shot glass - it's been phrased in a way that it's possible that the people who reported that may have recalled an actual event, they just may have had the timeline wrong. This would make sense as so many who were there have said that those who were inside had no idea what was happening outside. And many (ahem, Sylvia Rivera) have been very confused about which events happened on which nights. Marsha may have thrown a shot glass at some point that week. I think it's fine for us to report that some recall Marsha doing that at some point, as long as we don't claim that's what started the uprising. I think most writers agree that the key moment was the scuffle between police and those who were being thrown in the paddy wagon, and that when those individuals (notably the lesbian who was most likely Stormé) fought back, that a number of people exploded into action at the same time. I think the section is actually fine as-is. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 23:39, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Miss Major's account is disputed and not taken seriously because, as you mentioned, most of the Stonewall veterans mentioned Marsha P. Johnson was there. David Carter stated that many of the Stonewall veterans including Marty Robinson and Jim Owles confirmed Marsha being there, but not Miss Major or Sylvia. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 02:01, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

ok I agree that "vanguard" is not inappropriate since it doesn't necessarily indicate "first" in time dimension, it can also mean leader of a movement. However I do take issues with the phrasing "one of the first to fight back". Arriving at the scene 40 minutes later cannot be counted as "first" in any sense, as Stonewall involves a lot of people. It should be phrased as something like "one of the participants on the first night". And can we add Stormé DeLarverie along with "Jackie Hormona and Zazu Nova" please? Her role in Stonewall, which is the most important, is literally being erased in mainstream media. Purplebls (talk) 03:53, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I've been thinking of editing that portion too. It does sound contradictory to state that in Marsha's words, she hadn't gotten there until later on that night, and then to say "she helped to start the escalation against the cops" so yeah, good point. And Storme definitely needs more attention, I agree on that! BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 12:47, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I would have no problem with those changes. I agree that "among the first" does give the wrong impression to those who don't know that the riots took place over a number of days. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 17:14, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Right. Stonewall's uprising lasted some six days, I think. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 18:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Two nights, Saturday and Sunday. Pjefts (talk) 21:18, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2018

Could I please change "Marsha P. Johnson (August 24, 1945 – July 6, 1992) was an American gay liberation[4][5] activist and self-identified drag queen.[6]" To, "Marsha P. Johnson (August 24, 1945 – July 6, 1992) was an American gay liberation[4][5] activist and transgender women.[6]" As Marsha P. Johnson identified as a Transgender women. Thank you. Audreyhepburn1960 (talk) 02:55, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done Sorry, but you would need a really good source for that. We have sources saying that she identified as a drag queen or a transvestite (including interviews with her), but not as transgender. -- irn (talk) 16:46, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2020

The link to "David France" in the section 'Mental Health and Death' links to the soccer historian and not to "David France (writer)" as it should. 2A02:C7D:6361:9100:65C3:DE24:5059:780B (talk) 23:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

 Done RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:33, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020

Marsha went by she/her/hers pronouns and that should be reflected in her page. The Merriem Webster dictionary included transwomen in the definition of women. Marian.hampe (talk) 02:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Reliable sources are required for pronoun usage. As there are conflicting sources for Johnson, use of pronouns has been avoided in this article, as discussed above. AutumnKing (talk) 10:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020

Marsha p. Johnson was a BLACK TRANS WOMEN. Not a Drag Queen. I wish for you too have this edited out of respect for Marsha. 2603:900B:300:6942:98BE:537E:3184:9976 (talk) 03:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Reliable sources are required for gender identity. Sources state that Johnson self-identified as a drag queen. AutumnKing (talk) 10:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2020

Marsha is transgender. Not a self identified drag queen. 172.7.219.80 (talk) 02:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. As said multiple times above, the consensus is that Marsha is a self identified drag queen. {{reply to|Can I Log In}}'s talk page! 18:34, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Unitorelli and cherry-picking quotes from the subject's youth, rather than their most-recent stated identification

I reverted the quote from the inconsistent Unitorelli source (there's a lot we don't know about who actually typed it up, edited it, etc) as it's cherry-picked, and contradicted by the later sources. It's even contradicted by Johnson's statements a couple pages later, on pp. 25 & 26 like:

I have to hide the fact that I’m a male. ...

Q: Isn’t it dangerous sometimes when someone thinks you’re a woman and then they find out you’re a man?

Yes it is. You can lose your life. I’ve almost lost my life five times; I think I’m like a cat. A lot of times I pick up men, and they think I’m a woman and then they try to rob me. I remember the first time I ever had sex with a man, and I was in the Bronx. It was a Spanish man, I was trying to hustle him for carfare to come back to New York City. And he took my clothes off and he found out I was a boy and he pulled a knife off of his dresser and he threatened me and I had to give him sex for nothing. And I went to a hotel one time, and I told this young soldier that I was a boy, and he didn’t want to believe it and then when we got to the hotel I took off my clothes and he found out I was a boy for real and then he got mad and he got his gun and he wanted to shoot me. It’s very dangerous being a transvestite going out on dates because it’s so easy to get killed.

(Bolding added). We've gone over this in previous discussions. On WP, we go with someone's last / most recent stated identification. That means the interview in Pay it No Mind; pull quotes from that interview are quoted above. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:24, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with CorbieVreccan. The "I don't know what..." bit comes from Johnson's account of bantering with men; I don't see it, in context, as a serious statement of self-ID. Cheers, gnu57 21:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2020

martha was a trans woman 82.26.253.164 (talk) 18:08, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:25, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2020

Marsha P. Johnson was not at the Stonewall Riots. Stop spreading this lie. There are multiple interviews with her where she says she arrived 2 hours after the riot had started. 2607:FEA8:8560:26AF:3DE2:5447:D545:639F (talk) 23:41, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Interviews (and witness testimony in general) are not the best of sources, and given there's a whole, well-sourced section on this, seems unlikely what you say is true RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:15, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2020

She was NOT a drag queen, she was a black trans WOMEN. Learn that, respect that and change it now. Her death was not a suicide and she is an icon and we are proud to have had this woman in LGBT history. Marsha P. Johnson. Now, say her name. 2001:569:7A93:CD00:801F:7996:4D0B:3B09 (talk) 04:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. As covered ad nauseam previously, there is consensus that Marsha has self identified as a drag queen. Jack Frost (talk) 06:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2020

In the "Early Life" section, would it be possible to change "and so chose to remain asexual" to "and so chose to remain celibate"? Asexuality is an orientation of its own, and refers to people who genuinely aren't interested in sex. If the individual actually is interested in sex but chooses not to have it for one reason or another, they're usually referred to as "celibate" or "abstinent." Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.45.206.171 (talk) 05:21, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Y "Asexual" is Johnson's own choice of word in the source and it likely didn't mean what it means now back then. Went with "sexually inactive" since "celibate" implies one's conscious/voluntary commitment to abstinence. Nardog (talk) 12:25, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2020

About the investigations on Johnson's death the article states: "After the NYPD reopened the case, the police reclassified Johnson's cause of death from "suicide" to undetermined.[1]" The cited source doesn't explicitly state this order of events. The german wikipedia article actually states the change of the cause of death was already done in 2002 and cites this from [2] where it says: "Her cause of death was changed to “undetermined” in 2002, and the N.Y.P.D. reopened the case in 2012."Nicohof (talk) 06:09, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Actually the New York Daily News article which was already cited describes the reclassification in more detail. In fact another People article cites NY Daily News for the same piece of information, so it is entirely plausible that the other People article you mentioned also pulled it from NYDN. Nardog (talk) 13:11, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

YT video reference (Kasino) [3]

I have to wonder if [4] should be considered a WP:RS. WP:RSPYT etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:35, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 June 2020

johnson was a trans* woman and this came after being a drag queen important to include in the first description 2A00:23C6:D084:D701:25EA:560C:3251:340F (talk) 19:33, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. It is well-sourced, in Johnson's own words, in the last interview given before Johnson's death, that Johnson identified as a Drag Queen, gay, "a boy" and "not a woman". See all the quotes in Pay It No Mind, cited above. On Wikipedia, we go with the subject's last stated identification. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:41, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 June 2020

Suggest changing "humored" to "amused". The context implies "amused" but "humor" as a verb does not have that meaning. Or, change "was humored by it" to "found it humorous". Jlaramee (talk) 16:50, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I was looking at that, then I wanted to see what the ref said. It only said "said it to a judge", but in the edit window I see this unclear "invisible text": "From reference attached to previous quote, worldofwonder.net". Can someone who know what that means add an actual ref, assuming worldofwonder.net is a WP:RS? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:31, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

The incident of saying "The 'P' stands for 'Pay it no mind'" to the judge, and the judge laughing and letting Marsha go, is also reported by at least one friend in the the PINM documentary. But I don't recall there being a source for Johnson saying the phrase was about gender. The only "source" that I recall saying it was about gender was that student paper at OUThistory that is full of invented content. I think that if we're going to leave in the bit that says "PINM" is about gender, we need a better source. Preferably an actual quote from Johnson. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done by TypoBoy. Nardog (talk) 12:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2020

Remove the information that Marsha P. Johnson's name given at birth was Malcom. It is harmful to include the legal names of trans people in their bio's and it is unnecessary, please remove it. If this page works to honor her legacy and also to respect her on a basic level the name Malcolm will be completely removed from this page as it refers to her.

ORIGINAL VERSION 1. Marsha P. Johnson (August 24, 1945 – July 6, 1992), born Malcolm Michaels Jr., was an American gay liberation[6][7] activist and self-identified drag queen.[8][9] 2. Johnson was born Malcolm Michaels Jr. on August 24, 1945, in Elizabeth, New Jersey, with six siblings and a father, Malcolm Michaels Sr., who was an assembly line worker at General Motors. 3. Though generally regarded as "generous and warmhearted" and "saintly" under the Marsha persona, Johnson's angry, violent side could sometimes emerge when Johnson was depressed or under severe stress. Some felt that it was more common for this to happen under Johnson's "male persona as Malcolm".[47] During those moments when Johnson's violent side emerged, according to an acquaintance Robert Heide, Johnson could be aggressive and short-tempered and speak in a deeper voice and, as Malcolm, would "become a very nasty, vicious man, looking for fights".[47] This dual personality of Johnson's has been described as "a schizophrenic personality at work".[33] When this happened, Johnson would often get in fights and wind up hospitalized and sedated, and friends would have to organize and raise money to bail Johnson out of jail or try to secure release from places like Bellevue.[33] In the 1979 Village Voice article, "The Drag of Politics," by Steven Watson, and further elaborated upon by Stonewall historian Carter, it had perhaps been for this reason that other activists had been reluctant at first to credit Johnson for helping to spark the gay liberation movement of the early 1970s.[33] Watson also reported that Johnson's saintly personality was "volatile" and listed a roster of gay bars from which Johnson had been banned.[14][33] At the time of Johnson's death in 1992, Johnson was said to be increasingly sick and in a fragile state, according to Randy Wicker.[48]

EDITED VERSION 1. Marsha P. Johnson (August 24, 1945 – July 6, 1992), was an American gay liberation[6][7] activist and self-identified drag queen.[8][9] 2. Johnson was born on August 24, 1945, in Elizabeth, New Jersey, with six siblings and a father, Malcolm Michaels Sr., who was an assembly line worker at General Motors. 3. Johnson would often get in fights and wind up hospitalized and sedated, and friends would have to organize and raise money to bail Johnson out of jail or try to secure release from places like Bellevue.[33] In the 1979 Village Voice article, "The Drag of Politics," by Steven Watson, and further elaborated upon by Stonewall historian Carter, it had perhaps been for this reason that other activists had been reluctant at first to credit Johnson for helping to spark the gay liberation movement of the early 1970s.[33] Watson also reported that Johnson's saintly personality was "volatile" and listed a roster of gay bars from which Johnson had been banned.[14][33] At the time of Johnson's death in 1992, Johnson was said to be increasingly sick and in a fragile state, according to Randy Wicker.[48]

Also take away legal name from under her photo which writes Born: Malcolm Michaels Jr. and write Name: Marsha P. Johnson. Daythedog (talk) 02:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

 Partly done: I have removed the birth name from the lead sentence per MOS:DEADNAME. Please read that section of MOS to see why I have not implemented the rest of your proposed removals. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Please read the talk page. Marsha/Malcolm/Mikey/Marshall did not have a "deadname", but used all these names, with friends and family, throughout life. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:37, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2020

Change the pronouns in this article from He/Him to She/Her

Change her title from Drag Queen to Queer rights activist

Marsha was a trans WOMAN 2601:2C7:4380:2900:B58A:392F:4A4E:4494 (talk) 03:08, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Not done: Please read the talk page, the article itself, and the cited sources for why the article is written the way it is; read the information about how to request an edit, and cite reliable sources for any changes that you think should be discussed. All of this has already been addressed at length. The article subject stated their self-id in interviews shortly before their death, and this is what we use; please respect Marsha's stated self-identification. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 03:18, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 October 2020

I'm requesting that you remove terms like "self identified drag queen" Marsha was a transgender woman. This article should reflect this. It says her deadname many times, and is extremely offensive to trans viewers. Please allow me to fix this. Apollolive (talk) 18:13, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. You will need to propose changes to specific text in the form "please change X to Y" or "please add Q after P". You will also need to provide reliable sources that support your proposed changes. I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:55, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Why promote falsehoods?

The Martha shot glass myth should be excised because people continually mistake it as true. Why include it? Edited for clarity (talk) 17:15, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I think with the many myths around Stonewall (and Johnson) we face the challenge/choice of leaving them out, but then having well-meaning people continually add misinformation back in (or complain that the article is incomplete). The alternative, that we have right now, is we can include the myth and debunk it with solid sourcing. There is the possibility that Marsha did throw a shot glass much later, after the bar had been burned and the fires put out. This may have happened on the next day or night, or one of the following nights, as the riots in the village went on for days. Due to all these factors I lean towards the version we have - that mentions it but clarifies the problems with the timeline and the witness statements. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:17, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

We would be remiss if we didn't discuss a topic widely discussed in sources on the subject. --Equivamp - talk 23:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2021

Please remove Marsha P. Johnson's DEAD name from her bio. It's really inappropriate, violent and transphobic to include this information. Her name is MARSHA NOT Malcolm. She was a trans woman who was an advocate for transgender rights and LGBT liberation. To say "gay liberation" implies that she was a gay man. She was not. #BlackTransLivesMatter. Please fix this. Trans women deserve dignity and respect even in after they have passed on. See below for the edit:

Marsha P. Johnson (August 24, 1945 – July 6, 1992) was an American trans woman and trans liberation activist [6][7]. Known as an outspoken advocate for trans rights, Johnson was one of the prominent figures in the Stonewall uprising of 1969.

Born: Marsha P. Johnson [1][2][3][4] August 24, 1945[1][2][3] Elizabeth, New Jersey, U.S.[5]

Died: July 6, 1992 (aged 46)[5] New York City, U.S.

Known for: Trans liberation and AIDS activist, performer with the Hot Peaches and the Angels of Light Mirixmm (talk) 16:15, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: This has been discussed many times. Please see the above section #Pronouns, names and "deadnames". --Equivamp - talk 16:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 June 2020

Under her name on the Google search results page, when 'Marsha P. Johnson' is searched for it shows her name and then underneath lists 'American Drag Queen'. I'm hoping that can be changed to American Activist or Transgender Rights Activist. 155.70.39.45 (talk) 20:44, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Not done: This is Wikipedia, not Google. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:22, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 January 2021 and 7 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nussforhistory.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2021

Change he/him pronouns to she/her pronouns 166.182.87.25 (talk) 14:37, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: This has been discussed many times. Please see the above section #Pronouns, names and "deadnames" Run n Fly (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Not only that, he/him hardly appear in the article and none are references to Johnson. Nardog (talk) 14:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2021

Please could we take marshas deadname off of the page 2A00:23C7:4294:E301:3105:8E18:B838:717C (talk) 01:53, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see #Pronouns,_names_and_"deadnames", above. --Equivamp - talk 02:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2021 (2)

remove “and also known as Malcolm Michaels Jr.”. replacing it is not necessary. 67.172.119.53 (talk) 09:33, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Please see discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:54, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2021

This page misgenders Marsha who was a trans woman. It’s disrespectful. I want to change the pronouns from he/him to she/her and write that she was a trans woman not a gay man. Redmochi123 (talk) 08:47, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Please see #Pronouns,_names_and_"deadnames", above. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 13:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

The article doesn't refer to her with "he/him" pronouns at all as far as I can tell. Equivamp - talk 17:04, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

What was added?

@Equivamp: Maybe it's the way the diff is displaying, but I can't tell what was added, and the content about Marsha's family's religion during Marsha's childhood was deleted by Nate. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:17, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

OK, I found it. Moar Catholic stuff. Which is fine, but it's not fine that Natemup (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) deleted other content about religion that wasn't Catholic. See, he's been doing disruptive editing on many articles involving promoting the Catholic Church. And thank you for correcting the illogical "Biography" structure; that's what I was referring to. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:24, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :The brief "Personal life" section detailing Johnson's end-of-life Catholicism, complete with an additional source and a quote. The information removed was largely not reflected in the sources cited, except for the part about attending the Episcopal church during childhood (which admittedly should be restored). --Equivamp - talk 23:30, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Corbie has an ongoing personal conflict with me, and that's where their edits are coming from. My edits elsewhere have not been proved disruptive by any consensus or neutral admin, but it is what it is.

As for this article, I initially could not find the AME reference in the NYT source, but I see it now. Other sources (including ones I added) say Johnson was raised Catholic. The other changes I made were mostly stylistic in nature, and the blanket revert was obviously uncalled for. natemup (talk) 01:07, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think religious/spiritual beliefs are more or less personal that one's sexuality and mental health, so it seems undue weight to have that section just be a pull quote about Catholicism. Especially given how eclectic Marsha was, and the context in which it was added. I've made some adjustments accordingly. The stuff about the personal altar to the Saints is in the Village Voice source. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:50, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

So instead of moving the other stuff you yourself deem personal into the "Personal life" section, you revert a whole slate of edits including that and totally unrelated stuff, leaving no personal section at all? natemup (talk) 01:48, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Sangria or Santería?

The direct quote from Johnson does not say "blood". That was editorializing from that webpage, which has all sorts of errors. This what Johnson actually says in the video interview: “I practice the Catholic religion because the Catholic religion is part of the Santería of the saints, which says that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.” Go to 4:12 to listen / see for yourself. Because the word is not 100% clear, though, I originally cut the middle bit of that sentence. While I guess it is possible Marsha made a mistake and said "Sangria"... it makes no sense. The closed captioning has it as "Santeria" as well (surprising, as the cc is generally not very good).

"Sangria" does not translate to anything having to do with the saints, while "Santería" clearly does - it's specifically about the kind of syncretic, personal work with Catholic saints and other spirits that Marsha was known to have been practicing.- CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:02, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Makes sense. I didn't realize the article was inaccurate. Has it been removed? natemup (talk) 16:27, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes. This was Johnson's only involvement in "Catholicism". Marsha was actually a lowercase "c" catholic - eclectic in practice. Marsha said in the PINM interviews, "I use St. Mary's Church", "I use Jesus," (emphasis added). I think Marsha started going to the nearby Catholic church because Randy Wicker's apt. and store were too cluttered for there to be space for a home Santeria altar. Marsha also didn't know it was OK to face the altar, and would lie on the floor, perpendicular to the altar, prostrate before the statue of Mary. A friend had to clarify that it was OK to face the altar. (Again, this is all in PINM.) Someone raised Catholic would not be confused about this. I don't know why Bronski thinks Marsha was raised Catholic, as absolutely no one who actually knew Marsha, or Marsha's family, has ever said this. Usually Bronski does good work. I have to say that, in this case, he simply did not. It's unfortunate. I can add more sources about Marsha's family's AME involvement, but I think it's clear the preponderance of sources indicate that Bronski is simply wrong in this case. I think the Bronski claim should just be cut or, as I did, left in but as a footnote. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:00, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

From what I read, she chose not to face the altar, and it's clear from the first-person quote in the article that she regarded herself a Catholic in some sense. The other comments about her religion seem to be all third-person (though she does also speak of her practice in a way that indicates nonstandard Catholic practice). In any case, burying a claim from a book so as to prioritize internet articles seems a bit brash to me. But then again, you are openly not a fan of Catholicism and have a history of interfering with my edits on the topic. So it goes... natemup (talk) 01:38, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2021

transgender woman, not drag queen SLT06 (talk) 03:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —Sirdog9002 (talk) 03:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The identity sections are well-sourced, and have been repeatedly discussed. Please read the pinned sections on talk, and the quotes from "Pay It No Mind". Watch the interviews with Marsha Johnson in the film and pay attention to Johnson's own statements of self-identification. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 October 2021

Stop using Johnson's name so much. Use her pronouns and change "drag queen" to "trans woman". 2A00:23C7:1F82:E501:E076:5AE0:A33F:2C88 (talk) 17:33, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: This matter has been discussed by editors on this page. Changing pronouns on the page or specific terms relating to Johnson would require consensus and isn't appropriate for an edit request. —Sirdog (talk) 20:39, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2021

Please remove her deadname. This is super transphobic and you can talk about her activism without leaking her deadname. 2607:FEA8:F20:5500:6CAA:B397:1C9:E986 (talk) 23:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:33, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

"In drag all the time"

An editor added this quote from an interview first published in 1972. By later years, Johnson was not "in drag all the time" and often appeared at marches and actions in jeans, t-shirts, hoodies, jean jackets, even suits and ties, with no makeup or wig. But I don't know how to source this. It's pretty easily observable by watching the documentaries, YouTube clips and looking at photo collections. But unless someone compiles these things in an RS form, I don't know how we can balance this out. As it is, we have an outdated 1972 statement being given undue weight for someone whose life continued, developed, and kept changing for twenty more years. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 03:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

So, to follow up: This is quote that was added last night, first fragmented, then I filled in the whole thing.diffs:

"A drag queen is one that usually goes to a ball, and that’s the only time she gets dressed up. Transvestites live in drag. A transsexual spends most of her life in drag. I never come out of drag to go anywhere. Everywhere I go I get all dressed up. A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy. You wear drag here and there. When you’re a transsexual, you have hormone treatments and you’re on your way to a sex change, and you never come out of female clothes."

The last time this quote came up for discussion, we decided that, though it has some good material here and there, as a whole it's too scattered and confusing to merit inclusion. I think its only value is Marsha's specific description of "transvestite", as in (editing here):

In an interview with Allen Young, in 1972's Out of the Closets: Voices of Gay Liberation, Johnson discussed being a "Street Transvestite Action Revolutionary", saying, "A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy."

and the cite itself shows that Marsha was fully aware of the terminology of the day, including "transsexual" ("A transsexual spends most of her life in drag. ... When you’re a transsexual, you have hormone treatments and you’re on your way to a sex change") but Marsha and Sylvia kind of had their own definitions for much of this terminology that is not in line with anyone else's in the era (Sylvia, for instance, claimed only gay people should be called transvestites). But the thing is, Marsha continually self-contradicts throughout both this excerpt, and the interview, and even in 1972, many of these statements were not actually true about Marsha. Marsha did not wear drag full time.

We agreed this is an interview where Marsha jokes around so much, and is so sarcastic, that everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. To put it in with an encyclopedic voice... is potentially very misleading. I didn't want to immediately revert, even though the quote was misrepresented, altered, and inserted out of context. At the time I just put in the full quote. But now I'm wondering if it should just be cut, edited down to the second pullquote above, and/or used as a contextualized footnote for a statement along the lines of Johnson being aware of the terms transsexual, etc. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The term transsexual was not used in North America until Dr Harry Benjamin used it around 1969, the year of Stonewall . At that point no state allowed gender changes and even today in 17 states you still cannot change your name for gender. It is indeed dead naming because at that point slipping between genders was absolutely necessary legally as your female name had no legal standing whatsoever. It could only be a drag name because the states would not recognize it. Transvestites are not drag queens, drag queens are not transsexuals though a few transsexuals do drag. Drag queens identify as male, cross dressers identify as male, transvestites identify as male. Marsha appears to be a transsexual who did drag in an era was there was no definition for transsexual. 104.34.202.79 (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Not true: Transsexual#Origin and use. Johnson's statement of being "in drag all the time" is colloquial, like, "we go there all the time." As in "often". Especially by the 1980s and 1990s, Johnson was not in drag "all the time." While Johnson enjoyed the glamour and creativity of drag, a lot of the drag was for work, in the years when Johnson was a sex worker and performer. But even when performing, in the later productions, Johnson's look is more glam than drag. The photos of Johnson in drag are more popular, and far more circulated. Like the old adage - if you want to get photographed at Pride, go in drag. Plenty of people transitioned and did name and marker changes in the 1980s. Marsha didn't die until 1992, with a new birth certificate, with an updated name - still Malcolm, but removed the "Jr.". Marsha wasn't even using the name "Marsha" with all friends and family, but also went by Malcolm, Marshall or Mikey. Watch the documentaries, and the interviews with family and other friends on YouTube (as opposed to the opining by those who never met Johnson, and most of whom weren't alive in that era and write misinformation like you've posted). Johnson did not self-id as a woman, or as a transsexual, but, in Johnson's own words, just days before death, as "a transvestite", "a homosexual", and "a drag queen". If you don't like it, take it up with Johnson's spirit; don't try to rewrite history. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Sex worker activists

I would like to add Marsha to the category https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Category:Sex_worker_activists_in_the_United_States I previously made this edit, but it was reverted on the grounds that she didn't advocate for sex workers. Here are sources that she did https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/us/marsha-p-johnson-biography/index.html https://medium.com/transequalitynow/5-heroes-in-the-fight-for-sex-workers-rights-fcd858f41124. --Camipco (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

When you added the cat, it looked to not just be for any activist who also does/did sex work, but specifically for people like Carol Leigh and Annie Sprinkle who are activists around the issue of sex work. It looks like there's been some drift from that... but I'm not sure there should be. Marsha engaged in survival sex, but was not an activist around this issue. Unfortunately, the CNN piece is full of inaccuracies. Medium... while the author are from a real org, Medium is a blogger site, and they are citing Rivera, not Johnson. (Rivera also went on record about hating sex work, and was prostituted and traumatized as a child.) What statements can you cite where Johnson specifically id'ed as a sex work activist, or actions that Johnson specifically took, that you think were Johnson being an activist for the rights of sex workers? I see both of those pieces as emblematic of people who don't see Johnson and Rivera as separate people, and assume that engaging in survival sex automatically equals being "a sex work activist". STAR House provided shelter for a population that included young sex workers, but Johnson was trying to help kids get off the street and out of sex work. I have never heard of Johnson attending any of the meetings and actions that were being held by sex work activists of the type in the "sex worker activists" category, and I can't recall hearing of, or seeing, a reliable source for Johnson self-id'ing as a sex work activist, or doing the type of activism we'd consider for that cat. If there are better sources, let's see them. But if those are the best sources, I'm still not seeing it. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:25, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 January 2022

Change "Drag Queen" to "Transgender Women" TransHistorian (talk) 22:18, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See discussions above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:21, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2019 and 6 December 2019.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2021

An addition to the Tributes section

In March 2021 the song 'Marsha P and Me' was featured on electronic music artist Cobbler's album 'This is a good place to kiss' (Shoebox Records). This was taken from a poem dedicated to Marsha by Justin Lewis which ends with the line 'and no one is telling us what to be ever again'. Juzmania (talk) 12:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Looking the song up, this is almost certainly not noteworthy though. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2022

Under the heading 'Tribute', after the last paragraph, please include the following text:

In 2021, YouTube star Nikki Tutorials paid homage to Marsha by wearing a dress inspired by Marsha at the MET Gala in New York with the words ‘Pay It No Mind’ on a ribbon and a crown based on the famous photo of Marsha in which she is adorned with flowers in her hair.

Translated from the Dutch Wikipedia page of Marsha P. Johnson (http://nl.m.wiki.x.io/wiki/Marsha_P._Johnson) 89.205.129.26 (talk) 23:02, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:09, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Additionally, you'll need secondary sources to show this is WP:DUE. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:13, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Addition to Tributes

The piece "A Mother of a Revolution!" by Omar Thomas was composed in 2019 and was written in dedication to Johnson. It has a disco style, reflecting the club scene for the LGBT+ community and honors the Stonewall Riots that Johnson is credited with helping instigate. A rising name in the concert band world, Omar Thomas's work is an important tribute to Johnson, bringing awareness to both her and the LGBT+ community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Papster101 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 10 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Stinkybxngwater.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 03:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2023

please take Marsha’a deadname out of this article. it has no reason to be there. Marsha is her name, and her only name! 38.132.158.148 (talk) 13:57, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see above section Talk:Marsha P. Johnson#Pronouns, names and "deadnames". Cannolis (talk) 16:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2023

remove mentions of birth name. it is considered inappropriate and harmful by the vast majority of the trans community to expose people's birth names. her birth name is not relevant in any way, and any information you may try to find by searching her birth name on google directs to a page using her preferred name. Derekeaaron1 (talk) 19:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. See discussion above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:57, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Transgender

While the term 'transgender' was not in common usage at the time of Marsha, there is clear evidence that Marsha would've been considered transgender had she been alive today. "They really can’t tell the difference about me because I’m on my way to be a sex change.

I have hormone treatments, and my bust is, uh, about a, a small… It’s a small bust, but it’s a nice handful and they feel that nice handful and they automatically go into the illusion that I might be real. From going into hormones, I’ve gotten so that I, I kind of, kind of just like heterosexual men."

https://makinggayhistory.com/podcast/bonus-episode-from-the-vault-sylvia-rivera-marsha-p-johnson-1970/

This should be mentioned in the main article as it is disingenuous and a political decision to deny Marsha's trans identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.127.129 (talk) 03:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Marsha was 25 when those early musings were recorded... and they conflict with the statements Marsha made when 46 years old. On Wikipedia, we go with the subject's most recent stated gender identification, which would be the interviews in 1992 in which Johnson id'd as a "drag queen", "homosexual", and "gay boy". Please page up to look at the time stamps for the interviews with Marsha in Pay It No Mind, and take Marsha's word for it. And... fwiw, look at photos of Marsha.

Also, you dropped the next line of that quote, where Marsha says, "And if I was to marry a male, it would strictly be a gay male because I don’t care for heterosexual men as a husband." And then Marsha talks about women as "Well, that’s what they’re good for doing." [emphasis added] The "they're" is women. Marsha does not identify as a woman in that interview, but repeatedly as a transvestite. And Sylvia leans once again towards a third gender perspective on what that means. As for hormones... if Marsha ever took hormones when young, it wasn't for very long, and it's doubtful it even happened. There are also interviews where Marsha says, "they didn't work!" because I never saw, and have never seen photos of, Marsha with breasts. There are, however, plenty of photos of Marsha shirtless or in see-through tops, so anyone can check. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

If HRT gave everyone breasts then breast augmentation surgery wouldn't exist. And nonbinary identities are valid. And the definition of transgender is someone whose gender identity differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. I think it is pretty clear that both Marsha and Sylvia's gender identity differed to the one they were assigned at birth. You can't second guess primary evidence on whether she took hormones or not; she said that she did, unless you can provide evidence contrary then the evidence stands that she did. Accessing Gender realignment surgery is costly in America, someone in Marsha's position would've found it near impossible to pay for and that would be something that she would have to come to terms with, but that does not deny that she never wanted it, especially when she clearly states that she wanted it. Finally, we already established that the terminology that we use today is different to that which was used back then. Throughout the 80s and early 90s I was bullied at school for being gay not trans because the two words were interchangeable in a cis-het view of the world. As I said, missing out of the article that Marsha took hormones and ignoring evidence that she did without providing links to convincing evidence to suggest otherwise is a political decision. The article needs to mention that Marsha took hormones and wanted a 'sex change' as per the evidence that I provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.127.129 (talk) 13:08, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Almost all of what you're suggesting is WP:OR, and tries to freeze a person who lived in to their 40s in to a passing statement they made in their 20s. You are also trying to assign an identity and motives to someone who is no longer here to speak for themselves, even contradicting what this person DID say about themselves. Again, watch the interviews. Johnson addressed all of this in Pay It No Mind. This has all been discussed here before and is addressed in the article. The various interviews are all cited, so people can go read them and draw a fuller picture for themselves. Johnson gave a lot of conflicting statements over the years, so, again, the policy is to go with the person's last stated identification. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:10, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Many Wikipedia articles concerning famous people contain a section on their early life. I repeat, denying the evidence that Marsha took hormones and said she wanted a sex change is a politically motivated anti-trans stance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.127.129 (talk) 00:42, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Mrs. Johnson on was plainly saying she took hormones and was happy enough with what she felt was slight development, and the implication is she's rather it had been greater development.

"so, again, the policy is to go with the person's last stated identification", that policy is nonsense, because what is a fact is what should be "gone with".

"denying the evidence that Marsha took hormones and said she wanted a sex change is a politically motivated anti-trans stance" <-- That seems most likely. 73.99.20.79 (talk) 17:20, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

This has all been discussed before, but, for the sake of being thorough, I went and listened to the interview again, and I suggest you do so, as well. There are transcription errors. This is not surprising, as Marsha is either tired or maybe stoned or medicated, and is slurring a bit. Many also have trouble understanding Marsha's accent. What they transcribed as "just like heterosexual men" is "I kind of dislike heterosexual men. ... They're too masculine." Which makes sense given the following content about disliking straight men. Additionally, a whole section was left out where Johnson again makes generalizations about women, making it clear Marsha does not personally identify as a woman, but as someone who can choose to act like a woman: "I could always talk like a woman. I could always act like a woman. I could always do things that women would do because I was raised by my mother." There are also casual videos on YouTube where Marsha talks about women friends and acquaintances and every time Marsha's language is clear that Marsha sees women as different/other.

I was surprised to see the interview link is not in the article, as I thought it already was. I recall adding the bit about having once considered surgical transition but having never gone through with it. As I recall, it was then followed by the terms Johnson did use to self-id. Others removed it; probably due to all the conflicting statements shortly after this interview, such as the ones in there now where Johnson id's as a transvestite and distinguishes this from being a transsexual.

As has been covered in other discussions here (but it looks like you haven't read them), the term transgender was in Marsha's awareness for the last few years before Marsha's death. It was in use in the East Coast activist community that Marsha was part of, initially for those who at the time were called transsexuals - those who wanted medical transitions but who didn't have the funds or health to be able to take hormones or handle surgery. It was a way of bringing class and disability analysis to the issue. In Marsha's latter decades, with more acceptance of gay people in society, Marsha was in drag much less frequently, and not always going by "Marsha" ("Drag" is Marsha's term; if Marsha considered dresses and makeup normal clothes, as they are generally considered so for a trans woman, Marsha wouldn't have called it drag).

While I don't think there's a problem with the link, all of this needs to be listened to carefully and contextualized. I get the impression you haven't read the article, let alone absorbed all the sources. So many who come here only care about whether or not Marsha fit into the current trans terminology, and miss the full picture of who this activist was. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 18:56, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

The decision to exclude the interview is political. It should be included and left for the reader to make their own mind up on whether Marsha was transgender or not. The arguments against including the interview are speculative while the interview itself is primary source from Marsha herself. Ideas that she might be stoned or intoxicated cannot be verified. Furthermore, interviews after Marsha's death with the people who knew her use she/her pronouns when discussing her and it was explained that the condition for living in her apartment was that she did not wear 'women's' clothing when leaving and entering the building but that she would hide that she was wearing a dress until after she left the building which can be confirmed on the documentary 'Pay It No Mind - The Life and Times of Marsha P. Johnson'. As for the use of the word 'transgender', there are still older trans people today who continue to use the word 'transsexual' and slightly fewer but some who still use the word 'Queen'. It is purely speculative of whether or not Marsha would refer to wearing a dress as drag, an argument can just as easily be made that because she had always referred to her dress as drag that she just continued to use the term in later life but such an argument would also be speculative. There appears to be a false assumption that transgender people can't be drag queens. The interview about Marsha taking HRT and wanting a sex change needs to be included in the main article because it is primary evidence and the words of Marsha herself. Excluding the interview is a political decision by those who wish to argue that Marsha wasn't transgender or had ever been transgender. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.198.127.129 (talk) 17:51, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

This is extremely inaccurate and disingenuous. By no means was "transgender" in common usage in the very early 1990s. Even in the early to mid 2000s when I came out, "Transsexual" was still the preferred term in many trans communities, but the definition had expanded to include more people. It's also extremely ignorant of the historical terminology of communities like Marsha's. "Queen" was an umbrella identity that included, increasingly as time went on, people that would openly ID as transgender women. Marsha clearly had a complicated relationship with gender by some people's standards as someone who existed at a time when "Non binary" identities were not codified as the way they are to day. But to pretend that she identified as a regular, gay man is as others have said, entirely born of a political agenda.

This is absolutely false information, and I would ask you back it up. Unless you can provide evidence that "Transgender" was in *full usage* by the time of Marsha's death in 1992. You also seem so ignorant of the wider subject matter, despite all the sources you claim to have read, that you claim that someone wouldn't call their clothes "drag" but "Normal clothes" if they were trans, which is one of the most ignorant and ahistorical things I've ever heard. Trans people do drag. A lot of that has been historically played down particularly due to he success of things like Ru Paul's drag race which highlight cis queens. There were people - again like Rivera - who called themselves Drag Queens who went on to identify as transgender.

It is not at all rare for Drag Queens who are not explicitly trans women to call themselves transgender, and still refer to their dress as drag. Hell, even some regular Trans women will do, if ironically. The absolute absurd flattening of the trans community in the name of being cautious about projecting current trans ideology backwards(which gets messy when you also simultaneously seem to claim the terminology was in full saturation back then) is far more problematic than modern trans women claiming Marsha as a flat out trans women. It misrepresents not only Marsha as we understand things through our current lenses, but also the wider community she was a part of.

You even say yourself that it was initially used as an alternate term for *transsexuals*, which someone less on the gender binary might not identify with. Specifically, you seem unaware of the racial/class divide between "transsexuals" who were often perceived as wealthy white women and "Street queens"/"Transvestites" et. all. I do not understand how you can be so thoroughly unaware of this.

On particularly tell is how Sylvia Rivera rebranded STAR as "Transgender" revolutionaries instead of transvestite. It is strongly implying the understanding of that community is the majority of "transvestites", street queens and fem queens *were* people who by that time, were beginning to identify as transgender. But this was *nine years* after Marsha's death. It is only at this point we see evidence of Marsha's contemporaries using that terminology at such a scale.

But either way - again - I came out as trans in the mid 2000s. Even *then* Transgender as a term was not in full swing. Unless you can provide evidence that it was, what you are suggesting in of itself is OR as you will struggle to find concrete record of it being a commonplace term before the mids 90s at the earliest. I would very much recommend you connect with Morgan M Page's One From the Vault podcast, which refers back to actual historians & people who knew Marsha and others, not people twisting quotes and interviews to fit a particular agenda. Little Miss Desu (talk) 01:17, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

This essay about how various folks conceptualize things, or how people now identify with various terms, is your opinion, and it seems based on your experiences of the community since the '00s, as well as revisionist things that have been written since then. This is not an article about varying views/opinions on those topics; it's about Marsha P. Johnson. Perhaps a blog would be a better place for this. The talk page is for discussing improvements to the article; please cite WP:RS sources for any changes you would like to suggest. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 20:29, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Pronoun avoidance.

I notice this article avoids using he for Johnson throughout. Why?????? More gender politics nonsense. Also totally anachronistic. There is NO evidence that this is appropriate. 2A02:C7C:3259:9000:3986:B41D:E31:C401 (talk) 18:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Read the talk page and sources; though I think the article explains it. Most of the time, Johnson/Michaels had no preferred pronouns. The exception was when Johnson/Michaels insisted on being called Malcolm or Marshall, so then he/him followed naturally. But most of the time, Johnson's attitude was, "Pay it no mind." Friends used he/him, she/her, and they/them, depending. Those accustomed to Johnson's mercurial nature knew how to read Johnson's mood and adapt accordingly. But switching around like that doesn't work when writing an encyclopedia article. While some of us used they/them for people at the time, Johnson never expressed a preference for they/them, so that would not really be an adequate solution. As Johnson is no longer with us to choose differently, avoiding pronouns altogether is the best solution we could come up with. Best, - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:43, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

then wouldn’t it make far more sense to use “they/them” throughout the article? I know gender neutral pronouns have recently become politicized, but it is both pragmatic and correct to use them when an individual’s gender or gender identity is unclear. This article reads very oddly in its quest to avoid pronouns to refer to Johnson, as English is a pronoun-dependent language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.98.154.50 (talk) 03:19, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I personally would have no problem with some usage of they/them, but we don't currently have consensus for it. There have been some recent discussions around the they/them issue on other articles, but we'd have to see if any consensus there would affect this article. Just FWIW, if we do go with even some usage of they/them, we will still have people complaining here on talk. Just check the talk page of any article that uses they/them to see examples. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:56, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2023

Change “Marsha P. Johnson (August 24, 1945 – July 6, 1992), also known as Malcolm Michaels Jr.,[3][4] was an American gay liberation[6][7] activist and self-identified drag queen.” TO “Martha P. Johnson (August 24, 1945 – July 6, 1992) described herself as a gay person, a transvestite, and a drag queen and used she/her pronouns; the term “transgender” only became commonly used after her death. She was an American gay liberation activist and trailblazer.

Do not include her “dead name” 2606:3D40:5D00:109C:846B:D055:F74A:8E5 (talk) 22:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 22:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: See also the above section Talk:Marsha P. Johnson#Pronouns, names and "deadnames". You would need WP:RS sources for the changes you suggest, that aren't factual. After years of digging through all the documentation, as well as talking to many people who knew Marsha, such sources don't exist because they are misconceptions. There is a lot of misinformation out there, which we have kept out of this article. Best, - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 19:31, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2023

Her dead name is used after saying "also known as" she was not also known as that, she is never referred to as she or her in the article just as "Johnson." This article feels like it was written by a transphobe and someone who is trans wasnt there to sign off on it, I took one look at this and started shaking 98.22.26.58 (talk) 08:35, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: see above discussions Cannolis (talk) 09:53, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Page structure

[Moved here from pronoun section]-cv

I wonder if it would be helpful to the interests of those keeping an eye on this article to move this topic to the top of the talk page, while also removing most of template boxes (save maybe the pronouns template)? I understand the need to organize the development of the article from the standpoint of a standard WP editor. But I think, from the standpoint of an editor who wants to change the pronouns and proclaim Johnson as trans (which is a view I do not share in reality), I might be more hesitant to write out my complaints if this topic is the first thing I see rather than a bunch of boxes and some tricky-to-read discussion on using sources. Brokenwit (talk) 04:06, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

The boxes have to be up top, per policy. The second box links directly to this section. Does it really matter if this section is before the one with source links? I'm not sure it matters. Most who demand pronoun and identity changes don't bother to read any of this, no matter how many flashing lights we include. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:19, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

OK, I've restructured a bit, so the first thing is the statement about circular discussions and then the link to the pronouns and "deadname" discussion. I'm not attached to the order of the pinned sections if others think they should be swapped, pronouns vs sourcing, as long as both are up top. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 21:28, 12 May 2023 (UTC)