Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/The Herschelkrustofsky List

File:King berlet.jpg

Dennis King and "Chip" Berlet

This list is presented as a guide to honest editors. Many of these issues have been discussed at some length but attempts to address them have been met with edit wars. The article as it presently stands is based almost entirely on the output of the John Train Salon, a grouping of operatives funded in particular by Richard Mellon Scaife, otherwise known for his sponsorship of the slander factory against U.S. President Bill Clinton. The two individuals who made a career of sorts out of attacking LaRouche are Dennis King and Chip Berlet.

I am working to update this, and make it reflect the fact that the LaRouche article has been split into three overlapping sections. Much of the same POV speculation and spin-doctoring by Adam and Andy also infects LaRouche-related articles such as National Caucus of Labor Committees, Schiller Institute, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, and Synarchism.

I have moved the closed issues to archive1.--Herschelkrustofsky 13:20, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Here is the unreworked edition of this page. Martin 20:21, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

REPRODUCED BELOW

Content relating to Jews, Judaism, Zionism, anti-Zionism, and anti-Semitism, has been moved to Talk:Lyndon LaRouche/Jewish issues

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The following issues remain unresolved.

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From the "Political Views" page

General POV characterizations of LaRouche

• "Lyndon LaRouche began his political career as a Marxist, and his political ideas retain certain characteristics of Marxism and Leninism, albeit in a very incoherent form." This is strictly Adam's personal opinion. Adam regards anyone who does not endorse Adam Smith as a Marxist/Leninist. This opinion is not even widely shared, let alone something which ought to be presented as fact.

• "Although LaRouche is frequently described as a fascist, his politics might better be described as a mutated form of Trotskyism, combined with his elaborate conspiracy theory and based on attacking individuals and groups rather than capitalists as a class." More of the same. Plus, the only reason that LaRouche is frequently described as a fascist, is precisely the same reason that Bill Clinton is described as a rapist: because a bunch of goons on the payroll of Richard Mellon Scaife managed to get their views into print. If this article were even slightly honest, this fact would be acknowledged.

A Leninist view of imperialism?

• "He still expounds a basically Leninist view of imperialism." This is Adam's POV, as seen in Adam's edits of neocolonialism, where he asserts that only leftists believe it exists. LaRouche expounds FDR's view of imperialism, which is also John Quincy Adams' view of imperialism.

Are LaRouche's economic ideas similar to those of Franco and Salazar

• "Despite LaRouche's rhetorical skill in presenting them as revolutionary, LaRouche's economic ideas are hardly original: they are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck and the statism of Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar."

This is less obviously ridiculous than Adam's original formulation, but no less false. The models for LaRouche are Lincoln and FDR. That's what he says, that's what he means, end of story. -- Herschel

Nelson Rockefeller

• "In the 1960s and 1970s, LaRouche was particularly focussed on the supposed danger posed by liberal Republicans such as Nelson Rockefeller believing that he was attempting to rescue international capitalism through aid schemes and, domestically, through antipoverty programs as a means of coopting the working class and Black underclass." This is incorrect; LaRouche did not attack Rockefeller for "aid schemes" and "antipoverty programs," but rather for Schachtian schemes to collect debt by imposing forced-labor programs and cutbacks in social services.

LaRouche's opponents

• "The Marxist concept of the ruling class was converted by LaRouche into a conspiracy theory, in which world capitalism was controlled by a secret cabal including the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, Henry Kissinger, the Council on Foreign Relations and other standard villains of the extreme right, many though not all of them Jewish." This is a crock. The term "secret cabal" is POV -- LaRouche has never asserted that there was anything secret about his opponents. Their views and activities are a matter of public record. Likewise "standard villains of the extreme right" -- those individuals and groups have been criticized from all over the political spectrum. Adam is insinuating that LaRouche is a rightist, since Adam cannot demonstrate that he is one. And last but not least, "many though not all of them Jewish" -- more sleazy insinuation, aimed at creating the impression that LaRouche is an anti-Semite.

Press coverage

• "LaRouche claims that there is also a conspiracy by the "Establishment" and the press it allegedly controls to deny him coverage and prevent his views becoming known." This is inaccurate; LaRouche cites the Rosenfeld op-ed as evidence that there are those in the press cartels that seek to deny him truthful coverage. The existence of the John Train Salon illustrates that some folks are eager to provide LaRouche with plenty of misleading coverage, as are Adam and Andy, the principle authors of the Wikipedia articles.

Pro-nuclear leftists?

• "He calls for greater federal investment in science and technology, particularly the space program and nuclear energy (with a special emphasis on nuclear fusion.) Most of these are staples of both the traditional left and the modern anti-globalization movement." Give me a break! Name just one example where "the traditional left and the modern anti-globalization movement" called for nuclear energy or increased NASA funding.

Indiscriminate use of the term "Fascist"?

• "LaRouche himself frequently describes his enemies indiscriminately as fascists or proto-fascists." Sleazy POV. LaRouche has never used the terms "fascist" or "proto-fascist" indiscriminately.

From the biography page

• "At about this time LaRouche's attacks on the pro-Soviet U.S. Communist Party ceased, and LaRouche publications began to run pro-Soviet articles." First of all, are you sure that you want to put this in the section where you attempt to defend the bogus argument that LaRouche switched from left to right? The fact is, LaRouche publications were generally anti-Soviet during the 80s, but would acknowledge anything constructive in the USSR, such as some of their science programs, particularly with regard to fusion energy. The more you guys try to squeeze LaRouche into some sort of cartoonish "right-wing" or "left-wing" caricature, the more your propaganda will develop these sorts of paradoxes.

Club of Life

• "The group also adopted a position against abortion and ran a front group named "Club of Life" on the issue." The Club of Life was formed in response to attacks on LaRouche by the anti-abortion movement (which is inconvenient for Andy, who is attempting to lump LaRouche in with various "right-wing" causes). LaRouche has consistently refused to take a stand one way or the other on abortion (Andy, your memory must be failing, because you yourself put a link on one of the archived talk pages to a video clip from the Democratic Convention, where an enraged Baby Boomer was demanding that a member of the LaRouche Youth Movement take a position pro or con on abortion, which the youngster was refusing to do.) LaRouche has, however, attacked the philosophy of Malthusianism, and has attacked the right-to-lifers for their hypocritical refusal to fight euthanasia and the genocide being carried out against the Third World. The fact is, Andy, LaRouche has never sucked up to anyone in an attempt to gain support; he has never modified his own views in an attempt to gain support; he didn't modify his views to stay out of jail, although he was given that opportunity; your POV is all wet.

See [1] Weed Harper 14:59, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

So then he criticises the pro-Lifers for not going far enough? But he doesn't criticise them for opposing abortion? AndyL 15:32, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Andy, it's very simple. LaRouche has made it clear that he considers abortion a "hot button" issue, and he detests the mentality that reduces politics to such issues. He has never taken a position either for or against, because it would be simple-minded to do so. You are eager to classify him as pro-abortion, because it suits your POV agenda of trying defend the Blum-Montgomery theory that LaRouche went from being an orthodox leftist to being an orthodox rightist. The truth of the matter is, LaRouche has always been thoroughly unorthodox. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:10, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Do you deny that the National Right ot Life Committee gave LaRouche a score of 75%? AndyL 21:46, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche vs. Cheney

• "He also claims to be leading a campaign, begun in October 2002[4] (http://www.larouchepub.com/pr_lar/2002/020922_cheney_must_resign.html), to have Dick Cheney dumped from the Republican ticket. Like most LaRouche campaigns, this has received little if any notice in the media or among the general public." In fact, there were major attacks on this campaign by the Wall Street Journal and the National Review, which Andy well knows because he attempted to downplay their significance over at Talk:Leo Strauss. As far as the general public is concerned, did Andy travel down to the U.S. and take a poll? Over 4 million pamplets, and a larger number of leaflets, on the question of Cheney and the Straussian Chickenhawks were distributed on the streets of the U.S. And there was nothing the media cartels could do to stop it. (While we are on the subject of the National Review, I note that Andy has taken to quoting Gregory Rose. Rose may not be the most reliable source -- following his period of cohabiting with William F. Buckley, Rose reported, in a private conversation and in all seriousness, that Buckley had sexual relations with his pet spaniel.)

Steered to the right

• "During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)."

The business about steering toward the extreme right is a myth, and even if it were not, trying to make a comparison to Mussolini would be propagandistic innuendo. -- Herschel

This does seem to be POV, especially the part about Mussolini, which seems to be in there to "prove" that LaRouche is a right winger, rather than to provide information. Certainly connections between NCLC and various far right groups (and also with the Reagan administration) can be discussed, since that is pretty well documented. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think this is a fair observation. LaRouche did swing from the extreme left to the right.

How so? What policies did he change? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, he abandoned Marxism for one and moved towards some sort of amalgam of 19th century philosophers. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Since when is philosophy considered "extreme right"? And LaRouche had the "amalgam of philosphers" thing working as a teenager, back in the 30s, although the philosophers were never predominantly 19th century -- his favorite was Gottfried Leibniz. Also, some may consider Marx a 19th century philosopher. -- Herschel

I attributed the "shift to right" theory to Chip Berlet, and removed the POV about Mussolini. Weed Harper 05:47, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The attribution has been removed. --Herschelkrustofsky 13:20, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby

12. "In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism."

I dare you to attempt to document this. What are "connections"? This is innuendo. -- Herschel

I agree, this could be made more precise. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

see [2]

I'm supposed to accept Chip Berlet's opinion as "documentation"? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:07, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

(Herschel quoted from "A Tactical Alliance with the Reactionary Right" from the above linked article and re-asked the same question - removed due to lack of space - follow the link instead. Martin (reworker)

Land bridge

• "Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project."

Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition. -- Herschel

You have yet to provide any independent evidence that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" as you describe it exists. As I said earlier (see section on this page titled "the Land Bridge") all the articles you cite either do not mention the land bridge at all or cite LaRouche as their source. Despite the fact that you've failed to respond to my comments about the articles you repeat your dubious assertions.

The assertion that the "Asian Highway" is also called the "Eurasian Land-bridge" is yours, not mine. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You have yet to reply to the points I maike in the "Land-Bridge" section of this page. I have yet to see any evidence outside of the LaRouche movement that this project exists. However, you and the LaRouchites claim that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" is nicknamed the "New Silk Road" which happens to be the nickname of the "Asian Highway" as it turns out. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Partial List of false and undocumentable assertions in the present version

As of 13:30, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC):

1."He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

This is certainly not "undocumentable." Since this is describing LaRouche's own claims, it should be able to be documented fairly easily. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

They're someone else's claims. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:00, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

2. "LaRouche was heavily influenced by Healy's conspiratorial world-view and his advocacy of violence and intimidation." This is innuendo.

This should probably be put differently. "Critics have argued that LaRouche was heavily influenced..."

3. "Once again, LaRouche now maintains that he was an FBI agent during all this activism."

Same as for number one.

4. "He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people, and under his direction the NCLC adopted the violent and disruptive tactics of fascist groups of the 1920s and '30s."

Again, the first part should be able to be documented from LaRouchite publications of the time period. That the NCLC adopted violent and disruptive tactics seems to me indisputable. Comparing them to Fascists seems to me to be rather POV, though.

5. "Some ex-NCLC members who left the group at this time say that LaRouche was studying the career of Adolf Hitler and consciously adopting the tactics of the early Nazi Party." An accusation as serious as this cannot responsibly be attributed to dubious, unnamed sources.

So nothing that any ex-NCLC member who wanted to remain anonymous said can be used for the article? john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Under these circumstances, I would say no. It represents a convenient way out, for persons with a desperate need to discredit LaRouche, and no concrete evidence -- although NBC got away with precisely that in the libel suit. Bear in mind, you could probably find an anonymous source to accuse just about any public figure of being Hitlerian, and if you can't find one, you can always say that you did.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

6. "During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)."

This does seem to be POV, especially the part about Mussolini, which seems to be in there to "prove" that LaRouche is a right winger, rather than to provide information. Certainly connections between NCLC and various far right groups (and also with the Reagan administration) can be discussed, since that is pretty well documented. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

7. "Queen Elizabeth was a drug runner." This opinion is attributed to LaRouche -- it is a well known hoax. The author of the quote was Mark Nykanen, who was working as a telejournalist for NBC in 1980 when the quote was fabricated.

I don't know about this specific quote. But a quick look at any issue of the New Federalist shows similarly wacky comments about the British royal family to be omnipresent in LaRouchite publications. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Fine. Use a real quote, then.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This is not a hoax -- I remember listening to LaRouche explain it on a television interview many years ago. His explanation was that England did supervise the importation of drugs in the 19th century to other countries (e.g. China), and that Queen Elizabeth symbolizes England. Both statements are true, although the resulting description of QEII as a drug-runner is misleading (and in my opinion a bizarrely self-defeating way to make a point) Slrubenstein

Your memory does not mislead you. LaRouche did frequently discuss the 19th Century role of the British, although to put it a bit more sharply, they turned India into an opium plantation, and then fought the Opium War against China to force them to buy the product. They also pioneered the business of drug money laundering in colonies like Hong Kong, the Bahamas and the Cayman Islands. However, LaRouche would never say that QEII "symbolizes" England; he would be more apt to say that she is the titular CEO of one of the world's largest conglomerates, including (as I recall) companies like Rio Tinto Zinc, as well as other, shadier enterprizes. These charges are all completely reasonable and verifiable. Mark Nykanen's role was to substitute a bizarrely self-defeating formulation, attribute it to LaRouche, and use it as a straw man. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:01, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

8. "Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." Innuendo. I myself registered as a Democrat in 1972. Did I "infiltrate" the party?

I agree. This could be phrased differently. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

9. "The use of the NDPC name has, however, allowed LaRouche followers to compete seriously in Democratic primaries for lesser offices, and even occasionally to win them." Innuendo. What allows LaRouche followers to compete seriously is the fulfillment of petitioning and othe legal requirements.

Maybe - some more detail here might be in order. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

10. "Some of the LaRouche organization's successes have come from exploiting public fears about the AIDS epidemic, which they blame on international conspirators."

I definitely recall reading some of this in one of the issues of New Federalist that I've read. He says the same thing about drugs, as I recall. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It were accurate to say that the LaRouche organization "advocated a policy" or "took a position" with respect to AIDS; to say they "exploited public fears" is innuendo. LaRouche never said that AIDS was caused by a conspiracy; he did say that the relevant international institutions made no serious effort to stop the spread of AIDS in Africa. Say that, if you wish.

11. "From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups." Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism."

I agree that this part is still problematic. I think it needs to be mentioned that discussion of Zionist conspiracy theories is an extraordinarily common feature of post-1948 anti-semitic literature, and that LaRouche's own comments about Zionism share many similarities with such works. At the same time, we shouldn't say that LaRouche is an anti-semite. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

12. "In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism." What are "connections"? This is innuendo.

I agree, this could be made more precise. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

13. "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade."

What's your problem with this? It's certainly documentable. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Then go ahead. LaRouche has named Jewish-surnamed mobsters like Meyer Lansky as being involved in narcotics trafficking, just as he has named mobsters from other ethnic groups as well -- but he has never characterized "the Jews", or any other ethnic group, as controlling anything.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

14. "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations."

He's certainly said things of this nature, although as I recall his favorite punching bags are much more a "world bankers' conspiracy" abetted by the British royal family. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What LaRouche has said, is that the so-called Zionist Lobby -- which is not some arcane conspiracy, but rather organizations like AIPAC -- is itself controlled by more powerful interests, that care nothing for the welfare of Jews or the state of Israel.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

15. "In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.

He provided a reference to New Solidarity. It is up to you to prove that reference to be false. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think so. There is no specific reference, no quote, so it winds up being a characterization. To put the burden of proof for these kinds of scurrilous charges on LaRouche -- "Prove that you have stopped beating your wife" -- is unreasonable.--Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

16. "Like most cults, the LaRouche organisation devotes much of its energy to the sale of literature and the soliciting of small donations at airports and on university campuses." Innuendo. The LaRouche organization raises money exactly as do other political movements, except without the emphasis on large foundation grants.

I agree that this is problematic. Take out the "like most cults" bit and it should be fine. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

17. "It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls."

I would suspect that this is true, but it should be sourced more clearly. What are the front organizations? john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

18. "The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy.

There seem to be two versions of this. Surely there is some reliable reporting on this subject from reputable news organizations to sort this stuff out. john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You can do better than that -- the court records are public. --Herschelkrustofsky 20:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

19. "One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring." --Herschelkrustofsky 14:15, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is this false, or do you think it's POV? john k 17:50, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Krusty must answer the question: Does he or does he not allege that Dennis King forged the two citations about LaRouche's comments on the Holocaust in 1978 and 1981? If so, what is his evidence? Unless he either substantiates this allegation, or retracts it, he stands exposed as a barefaced liar. I will keep posing these questions until we get an answer. Adam 16:05, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's checkmate until Krusty attempts to answer this question. Until then, Krusty should be ignored and automatically reverted. 172 01:57, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Maybe he doesn't want to talk to a jerk like you, Carr...Lirath Q. Pynnor

hi lir :). Is this going to be the most verifiable, cited article in wikipedia history? That looks like the plan. Might be a good precedent, who knows... Sam [Spade] 20:27, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Partial List of false and downright bizarre assertions in the present version

As of 07:01, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC):

This is a partial list. Note that User:John_Kenney has addressed many of these points earlier, but Adam seems to cherish them.

1."He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

2. "LaRouche was heavily influenced by Healy's conspiratorial world-view and his advocacy of violence and intimidation." This is innuendo.

3. "Once again, LaRouche now maintains that he was an FBI agent during all this activism."

4. "He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people"

5. "During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)."

6. "In practice this amounts to advocating centralised, though not socialist, state control of the economy, with heavy state investment in industry and science, and presumably administered by members of the "Promethian" elite such as LaRouche himself." Clumsy and obvious innuendo.

7. "Despite LaRouche's rhetorical skill in presenting them as revolutionary, LaRouche's economic ideas are hardly original: they formed the basis of the corporatist system in Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar." This one is a real howler. Did Adam think this up himself?

8. "LaRouche did not develop his current political and economic ideas in the 1950s or '60s: until at least 1969 he was a Trotskyist, although an increasingly unorthodox one." Adam is a mind-reader?

9. "Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project." Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition.

10. "Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." Innuendo. I myself registered as a Democrat in 1972. Did I "infiltrate" the party?

11. "The use of the NDPC name has, however, allowed LaRouche followers to compete seriously in Democratic primaries for lesser offices, and even occasionally to win them." Innuendo. What allows LaRouche followers to compete seriously is the fulfillment of petitioning and othe legal requirements.

11. "Some of the LaRouche organization's successes have come from exploiting public fears about the AIDS epidemic, which they blame on international conspirators."

12. "From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups." Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism."

13. "In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism." What are "connections"? This is innuendo.

14. "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade."

15. "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations."

16. "In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism." They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations.

17. "In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.

18. "There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo: provide an example of a "Jewish business figure" who was "savagely denounced by LaRouche."

19. "Like most cults, the LaRouche organisation devotes much of its energy to the sale of literature and the soliciting of small donations at airports and on university campuses." Innuendo. The LaRouche organization raises money exactly as do other political movements, except without the emphasis on large foundation grants.

20. "It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls."

21. "The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy.

22. "One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring."

Updated list of wild fabrications and propagandistic slurs in the present version

Version 3.0

Updated as of August 1 --Herschelkrustofsky 22:44, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

• "Once again, LaRouche now maintains that he was an FBI agent during all this activism."

• "In the 1970s LaRouche developed an intense interest in fascism, and began to adopt some of its slogans and practices, while maintaining (as he still does) an outward stance of anti-fascism." LaRouche developed an intense interest in preventing fascism. What "slogans and practices" does Adam allege that he adopted?

• "He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people" This is a fabrication. LaRouche counterposed the term "Promethean" to Friedrich Nietzsche's categories of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" in the discussion of Aesthetics, arguing that Nietzsche's approach was wrong.

• "...under his direction the NCLC adopted violent and disruptive tactics, physically attacking meetings of the SWP, the Communist Party and other groups, who were classed by LaRouche as "left-protofascists." During "Operation Mop-Up," NCLC members engaged in a series of well-documented beatings of members of these groups." "Well-documented" would mean arrests; if you intend to accept allegations in the press by LaRouche's opponents, you ought to also include the FOIA airtel, which is actually "well-documented".

• "During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)." The business about steering toward the extreme right is a myth, and even if it were not, trying to make a comparison to Mussolini would be propagandistic innuendo.

• "The Marxist concept of the ruling class was converted by LaRouche into a gigantic conspiracy theory, in which world capitalism was controlled by a secret cabal including the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, Henry Kissinger, the Council on Foreign Relations and other standard villains of the extreme right, many though not all of them Jewish." Propagandistic crap. Adam is pulling a little sleight of hand here, trying to lump LaRouche in with the right-wing conspirophiles. In addition, it is not the case that "many" of LaRouche's opponents are Jewish. And, Adam wishes to imply that LaRouche is attacking someone because they are Jewish; this sort of thing trivializes anti-Semitism, by implying that anyone who ever criticized someone with a Jewish name is an anti-Semite.

• "Despite LaRouche's rhetorical skill in presenting them as revolutionary, LaRouche's economic ideas are hardly original: they are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck and the statism of Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar." This is less obviously ridiculous than Adam's original formulation, but no less false. The models for LaRouche are Lincoln and FDR. That's what he says, that's what he means, end of story.

• "LaRouche did not develop his current political and economic ideas in the 1950s or '60s: until at least 1969 he was a Trotskyist, although an increasingly unorthodox one." Adam is a mind-reader?

• "Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project." Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam and his cohort Andy asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition.

• "This followed a concerted campaign by LaRouche to develop close relations with the Reagan Administration, by publishing flattering articles about administration officials in the LaRouche press." Innuendo; LaRouche publications wrote articles that were both favorable and highly critical of various officials and policies.

• "Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." Innuendo. I myself registered as a Democrat in 1972. Did I "infiltrate" the party? Wesley Clark registered as a Democrat just in time to declare his candidacy for the 2004 election. Did he "infiltrate"?

• "The use of the NDPC name has, however, allowed LaRouche followers to compete seriously in Democratic primaries for lesser offices, and even occasionally to win them." Innuendo. What allows LaRouche followers to compete seriously is the fulfillment of petitioning and othe legal requirements. The NDPC was a Political Action Committee like any other.

• "The best known example was in 1986, when a LaRouche candidate, Mark Fairchild, won the Democratic primary for the post of Lieutenant-Governor of Illinois." There were two candidates, the other being Janice Hart, about whom there is an article in Wikipedia. I attempted to correct this early, and my correction was immediately reverted by Adam.

• "Some of the LaRouche organization's successes have come from exploiting public fears about the AIDS epidemic, which they blame on international conspirators." If this sort of innuendo is given any credence, any candidate who puts forward a concrete solution to a contemporary problem (as LaRouche did, by arguing that AIDS should be restored to California's list of communicable diseases and made subject to public health law), can be charged with "exploiting public fears" about that problem. Did FDR "exploit public fears" about the Great Depression? And, LaRouche never blamed AIDS on any international conspirators.

• (regarding charges of anti-Semitism): "LaRouche for his part has denied these accusations, asserting that those who accuse him are part of the oligarchic conspiracy to rule the world." Nonsense; LaRouche simply asserted that those who accuse him are liars. Adam's propaganda would be more effective if he didn't lay it on so thick.

• "From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups." Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism." I notice that some wag added "The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is particularly noticeable in the 1978 publication by the LaRouche organisation entitled Zionism is not Judaism."

• "In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism." I dare you to attempt to document this. What are "connections"? This is innuendo.

• "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade." LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals.

• "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations." Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC.

• "In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism." They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations.

• "In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.

• "There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo: provide an example of a "Jewish business figure" who was "savagely denounced by LaRouche."

• "He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination." Fallacy of composition; LaRouche cannot "directly repudiate" something that he did not say.

• "It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls." Bullshit, if you'll pardon my French.

• "The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy (see significant omissions from the current version).

• "One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring."

Each one of these inventions or propagandistic insinuations constitutes a violation of Wikipedia policy; (see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not). --Herschelkrustofsky 21:01, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It's not just the propaganda -- even the parts that attempt to be non-propagandistic are sloppy and amateurish, as if the writer(s) had done no research whatsoever. This ought to be re-written from scratch. -- Peter_Abelard@ausi.com

I see that Krusty the Clown is still vandalizing the article. Should I protect the page? 172 03:47, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the situation here currently warrants protection. Krusty's edits can be dealt with as they occur. Adam 04:06, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Okay. When necessary, I can be called on to protect the page whenever I'm online, as I haven't been an editor of the article. 172 04:12, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Regardless of the outcome of arbitration proceedings, how about dealing with some of the disputed points in Krusty's latest list (the NPOV ones, anyway)? Ambivalenthysteria 04:25, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Propaganda

My copy of Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary defines propaganda as "the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person." The deliberations on the Talk:Lyndon LaRouche pages, in conjunction with Adam's admission on the Arbitration Evidence Page ("It is of course true that I and others editing here are hostile to LaRouche."), leave little doubt that what we have here is a lynch mob of sorts, editing at cross-purposes with Wikipedia policy as stated. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:04, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Responses to Version 2.0

Actually, as described in the article, LaRouche's economic policies don't strike me as corporatist per se (ie there's no reference in the description of LaRouche's economic ideas to creating administrative economic bodies that are drawn from management and labour). Either the section should be developed to explain how LaRouche's policies are corporatist or the reference to corporatism should be dropped. AndyL 04:34, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche is an outspoken opponent of corporatism. It continues to amaze me that you guys can pontificate about his ideas, while remaining entirely unfamiliar with them. --Herschelkrustofsky 05:03, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the term is not perfect, but it seemed to be the best fit for the combination of authoritarian leadership and state direction of the economy that LaRouche seems to be advocating. He does not as far as I know advocate state ownership, so he can't be called a socialist, and although some of his political ideas can be called fascist, "fascist" does not really describe an economic system. "Mercantilist" has some applicability, given the 18th century roots of the so-called American System stuff, but applies more to trade than to the management of the domestic economy. (All this presupposes that LaRouche does in fact hold coherent economic ideas, which I doubt. I think he just uses bits of economic jargon to dress up his conspiracy theories, which are what really drive him). Feel free to suggest alternative wordings. Adam 04:41, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The American System stuff seems to allude to Henry Clay (19th century). At any rate, Adam hit the nail on the head; a conversation based on an assumption that LaRouche is a serious economic thinker is a bit silly. "Mercantilism," "socialism," "New Deal liberalism," "corporatism," or any single economic school of thought don't fit perfectly. So just referring to his support for "state direction of the economy" is fine. 172 04:56, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've found websites that describe LaRouchian economics as corporatist - I don't think economists would necessarily describe them as such though - so I've changed the passage accordingly. I don't think we should say economists would describe his policies as corporatist unless either a) we can find any economists who say this (doubtful as I suspect no serious economists have conducted a review of LaRouche) or b) if we find elements in his economic writings that more clearly approximate corporatism to the degree that we could reasonably claim an economist might see them as such.AndyL 10:42, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you are hell-bent on defaming someone, the internet is a powerful tool. For example, you can quickly download proof that [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14683 former U.S. President Bill Clinton is a rapist], that his presidential campaign was backed by space aliens, and that he may have had sex with space aliens. --Herschelkrustofsky 19:57, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

FWIW, I was taught that state direction of the economy was a command economy. Don't know whether this is accurate, or whether it applies to Lyndon. Martin 17:10, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Statism perhaps?AndyL 17:37, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"In 1988 LaRouche was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment for illegally soliciting unsecured loans and tax code violations." This is inaccurate; the charges were all conspiracy charges, and there was no allegation that the loans were illegally solicited. The alleged conspiracy (see significant omissions from the current version) was to deliberately fail to repay the loans.

I've changed this so its consistent with the Washington Post report.

• "He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

I've read this elsewhere. Hershell ,what do you say LaRouche says to excuse his long sojurn in the SWP?

He has said many things, but not that one.

--Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You haven't answered my question. How does LaRouche explain his long sojurn in the SWP and then continuing to call himself a Marxist until the mid-1970s?AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the fact that he was a Marxist. I'm disputing the allegation that he was an FBI informant. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:00, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "LaRouche was heavily influenced by Healy's conspiratorial world-view and his advocacy of violence and intimidation." This is innuendo. How does Adam know what LaRouche was thinking? Did LaRouche say he was "heavily influenced" by Healy, or anything Healy advocated?

I've modified this. Others on the left have made this observation so I've made a qualification accordingly.

• "Once again, LaRouche now maintains that he was an FBI agent during all this activism."

see above

• "He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people" This is a fabrication. LaRouche counterposed the term "Promethean" to Friedrich Nietzsche's categories of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" in the discussion of Aesthetics, arguing that Nietzsche's approach was wrong.

I don't understand this so I can't comment :)

• "During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)." The business about steering toward the extreme right is a myth, and even if it were not, trying to make a comparison to Mussolini would be propagandistic innuendo.

I think this is a fair observation. LaRouche did swing from the extreme left to the right.

How so? What policies did he change? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, he abandoned Marxism for one and moved towards some sort of amalgam of 19th century philosophers. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Since when is philosophy considered "extreme right"? And LaRouche had the "amalgam of philosphers" thing working as a teenager, back in the 30s, although the philosophers were never predominantly 19th century -- his favorite was Gottfried Leibniz. Also, some may consider Marx a 19th century philosopher.

• "He cites as evidence for this a September 24, 1976 opinion piece in the Washington Post, entitled "NCLC: A Domestic Political Menace," and written by Stephen Rosenfeld, a senior editor (who is Jewish)." Whether Rosenfeld is Jewish is irrelevant; lacking any evidence, Adam is trying to make a case for LaRouche being an anti-Semite, purely through insinuation.

I've removed the reference to Rosenfeld being Jewish

• "In practice this amounts to advocating centralised, though not socialist, state control of the economy, with heavy state investment in industry and science, and presumably administered by members of the "Promethian" elite such as LaRouche himself." Clumsy and obvious innuendo.

seems like a fair description of LaRouche to me.

Is that your conception of NPOV? I hope you are kidding. And if not, the matter is straightforward: LaRouche is on the record of being a supporter of "Big Government" a la FDR. That means that the citizenry would control the regulation of the economy by voting for a government that suits its needs. The alternative is to have the economy regulated by an unelected Wall Street establishment, typified by the Fed. Adam's formulation implies that LaRouche is in favor of some sort of dictatorship. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "Despite LaRouche's rhetorical skill in presenting them as revolutionary, LaRouche's economic ideas are hardly original: they formed the basis of the corporatist system in Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar." This one is a real howler. Did Adam think this up himself?

I've modified this adding a comparison to Bismarck's Germany and referring to statist rather than corporatist policies.

• "LaRouche did not develop his current political and economic ideas in the 1950s or '60s: until at least 1969 he was a Trotskyist, although an increasingly unorthodox one." Adam is a mind-reader?

LaRouche was a Trotskyist until the late-1960s, he then "discovered" Rosa Luxermburg's writings on capitalism and adopted them and started making his own revisions. I suggest you read some of LaRouche's own writings from the period though I doubt the "LaRouche movement" will make them available to you.

I have LaRouche's writings from that period. Do you? Or do you rely on Chip Berlet's characterizations? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I did look through a text by Lyn Marcus called "Dialectical Economics" a few years ago. I also have a copy of Rosa Luxemburg's "Accumulation of Capital" published by LaRouche with an introduction by him. I've also read what varioius contemporaries of LaRouche in the SWP say about him. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

See, for example, * Sex Maniac & Demagogue by Clara Fraser, a former colleague of LaRouche in his Trotskyist days - reproduced in the second part of this email to the Marxmail e-list.

• True History of Lyn Marcus (Lyndon LaRouche) and the Labor Committees1975 article published by the International Workers Party whose members joined LaRouche's NCLC for a period in the early 1970s.

Tim Wohlforth has also written two books which I haven't read but which may be useful The Prophet's Children: Travels on the American Left ISBN: 1573922854 and On the Edge: Political Cults Right and Left ISBN: 0765606399 The latter has a section on LaRouche and should be of interest given Wohlforth's association with LaRouche in the 1960s. AndyL 16:51, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project." Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam and his cohort Andy asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition.

You have yet to provide any independent evidence that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" as you describe it exists. As I said earlier (see section on this page titled "the Land Bridge") all the articles you cite either do not mention the land bridge at all or cite LaRouche as their source. Despite the fact that you've failed to respond to my comments about the articles you repeat your dubious assertions.

The assertion that the "Asian Highway" is also called the "Eurasian Land-bridge" is yours, not mine. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You have yet to reply to the points I maike in the "Land-Bridge" section of this page. I have yet to see any evidence outside of the LaRouche movement that this project exists. However, you and the LaRouchites claim that the "Eurasian Land-Bridge" is nicknamed the "New Silk Road" which happens to be the nickname of the "Asian Highway" as it turns out. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." Innuendo. I myself registered as a Democrat in 1972. Did I "infiltrate" the party? Wesley Clark registered as a Democrat just in time to declare his candidacy for the 2004 election. Did he "infiltrate"?

The Democrats consider the LaRouche movement to be infiltrators and have taken action against them.

"The Democrats" you refer to are a number of Dixiecrats such as Don Fowler, not the party as a whole. I cited examples such as Sen. Eugene McCarthy who have publicly welcomed LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't recall the Democrats being particularly welcoming in the 1980s when LaRouche candidates won a few nominations in Illinois. AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "The use of the NDPC name has, however, allowed LaRouche followers to compete seriously in Democratic primaries for lesser offices, and even occasionally to win them." Innuendo. What allows LaRouche followers to compete seriously is the fulfillment of petitioning and othe legal requirements. The NDPC was a Political Action Committee like any other.

the NDPC has no actual link with the Democratic Party though the name implies that it does.

No Political Action Committee has an "actual link". The NDPC (which hasn't existed since the '80s) was no different than any other PAC. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "Some of the LaRouche organization's successes have come from exploiting public fears about the AIDS epidemic, which they blame on international conspirators." If this sort of innuendo is given any credence, any candidate who puts forward a concrete solution to a contemporary problem (as LaRouche did, by arguing that AIDS should be restored to California's list of communicable diseases and made subject to public health law), can be charged with "exploiting public fears" about that problem. Did FDR "exploit public fears" about the Great Depression? And, LaRouche never blamed AIDS on any international conspirators.

In the 1980s he blamed AIDS on Moscow.

Bullshit. Produce a quote. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"The ... biological-warfare apparatus could have created AIDS in a ... it is in the strategic interests of Moscow" AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

That's a quote? Please. It's not even a complete sentence. And I see no way that one could possibly extrapolate it, to arrive at something that would amount to LaRouche blaming AIDS on Moscow. --Herschelkrustofsky 21:00, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, here's the full quote:

So far, the world's leading experts see no way in which the Soviet biological-warfare apparatus could have created AIDS in a test- tube. However, it is in the strategic interests of Moscow to see to it that the West does nothing to stop this pandemic; within a few years, at the present rates, the spread of AIDS in Asia, Africa, Western Europe, and the Americas would permit Moscow to take over the world almost without firing a shot."

"The Lesson of the Merchant of Venice", Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr., Executive Intelligence Review, November 1, 1985

• (regarding charges of anti-Semitism): "LaRouche for his part has denied these accusations, asserting that those who accuse him are part of the oligarchic conspiracy to rule the world." Nonsense; LaRouche simply asserted that those who accuse him are liars. Adam's propaganda would be more effective if he didn't lay it on so thick.

need more info before I can comment

• "From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups." Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism."

need more info before I can comment

• "In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism." I dare you to attempt to document this. What are "connections"? This is innuendo.

see [3]

I'm supposed to accept Chip Berlet's opinion as "documentation"? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:07, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"In 1974 LaRouche first began to seek contact with extremist and anti-Semitic right-wing groups and individuals in an effort to forge a tactical alliance in opposing imperialism and ruling class banking interests in general--and the Rockefellers in particular. LaRouche's obsession with conspiracy theories blossomed. Dovetailing with today's American radical Right and neo-fascist neo-populist ideologies, his theories of a Rockefeller-directed global conspiracy of banking interests found a receptive audience.

Yet the core followers of LaRouche still thought of themselves as Leftists forging a temporary and cyncial tactical alliance with `progressive' industrialists to help rebuild a strong economy. With a healthy economy leading to full employment for the working class, the LaRouche followers figured they could then lead the reconstituted working class to revolution. Defectors report that during this period they were required to study Marxist and Leninist tracts and participate in paramilitary training classes led by fellow members.

Having founded the U.S. Labor Party as the NCLC's electoral arm in 1973, LaRouche mounted his first presidential campaign under the USLP banner in 1976. His platform of "Impeach Rocky to prevent imminent nuclear war" garnered only 40,000 votes, but it afforded LaRouche more organizing opportunities on the far Right. Despite its declared Marxist stance, the NCLC stepped up efforts, with mixed success, to penetrate or co-opt such groups as the American Conservative Union, the John Birch Society, the Young Americans for Freedom, and the KKK.

Drawing upon his new contacts on the far Right (reportedly relying in part on Pennsylvania KKK leader Roy Frankhauser) LaRouche arranged with former CIA officer Mitchell WerBell III to provide the NCLC security force with armed self-defense training at WerBell's paramilitary camp in Powder Springs, Georgia. Now deceased, WerBell introduced LaRouche into wider right-wing circles including a shadowy netherworld of spys, mercenaries, and intelligence operatives.

It was during this period that NCLC began to collect and disseminate intelligence on progressive groups. LaRouche publications frequently report their security staffers offer intelligence to domestic and foreign government agencies. While documents released under the Freedom of Information Act reveal that U.S. government agencies frequently dismissed the material provided by the NCLC, it was provided nonetheless. Legal actions against some police agencies have discovered NCLC material in active files on terrorism and subversion.

As LaRouche's fear of persecution and assassination intensified he moved further and further into right-wing circles. His ideological theories were constantly being repackaged to appeal to his new-found friends. One shift in LaRouche's perception of who controlled the worldwide conspiracy came at the time of Nelson Rockefeller's death; an event which left a major hole in LaRouche's theoretical bulwark.

Ever alert to exploit shifting sentiment and historical opportunities, the U.S. Labor Party began to de-emphasise Rockefeller as the archenemy of civilization, replacing him with a worldwide conspiracy under the control of the "British Oligarchy" and their stooge. . .the Queen of England. A careful reading of USLP published material reveals, however, that a remarkable number of the British and other co-conspirators were Jews. It is this fact that prompted several major Jewish groups to denounce LaRouche's theories as anti-Semitic.

This turn toward a Jewish conspiracy theory of history came shortly after the quasi-Nazi Liberty Lobby began praising a 1976 USLP pamphlet titled Carter and the International Party of Terrorism. The pamphlet outlined the "Rockefeller-CIA-Carter axis," which was supposedly trying to "deindustrialize" the U.S. and provoke a war with the Soviet Union by 1978. (At this point LaRouche had not yet discarded his support for the Soviet Union, nor announced his support for "Star Wars" defense against his perceived threat of imminent Soviet attack.) In an overall favorable review of the USLP treatise on the Rockefeller-controlled global conspiracy, Liberty Lobby's newspaper, Spotlight complained that the report failed to mention any of the "major Zionist groups such as the notorious Anti-Defamation League" in its extensive list of government agencies, research groups, organizations and individuals controlled by the "Rockefeller-Carter-CIA" terrorism apparatus.

LaRouche, never one to miss a cue, soon was running articles in his newspaper New Solidarity with themes that betrayed increasingly bigoted view of Jews and Jewish institutions. By the end of 1976, LaRouche had completed his drift to the extremist-right of the political spectrum where his bigoted conspiracy theories linking international bankers, influential Jewish families, furtive KGB agents, and secret societes found fertile ground.

Soon LaRouche was expounding a view linking certain Jewish institutions and Zionist movements to a plot to destroy Western civilization and usher in a "New Dark Age." Linda Ray thinks that more recent LaRouche converts are not even aware of the group's real history, nor of the cult-like inner circle which controls the secret financial operations.

Opportunistic or not, LaRouche's erratic lurch to the right brought gains to the NCLC in membership and financial strength. Yet his right-wing theories and affiliations are still opaque to many observers who dismiss LaRouche on the basis of his cranky conspiratorial world view and general lunacy"

I'm supposed to accept Chip Berlet's opinion as "documentation?" --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade." LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals.

I think the evidence is against you on this Hershell

Great. Cite some. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations." Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC.

need more info before I can comment

• "In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism." They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations.

perhaps we should cite King as the source ie "Dennis King claims that...."

• "In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.

In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis"

That's a quote from Dennis King, not LaRouche. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo: provide an example of a "Jewish business figure" who was "savagely denounced by LaRouche."

• "He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination." Fallacy of composition; LaRouche cannot "directly repudiate" something that he did not say.

In January 1981 LaRouche's New Solidarity International Press Service issued a statement titled "LaRouche Reaffirms '1.5 millions' Analysis"

See above. Does all your "research" consist of simply cribbing from King and Berlet? --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "Like most cults, the LaRouche organisation devotes much of its energy to the sale of literature and the soliciting of small donations at airports and on university campuses." Innuendo. The LaRouche organization raises money exactly as do other political movements, except without the emphasis on large foundation grants.

Perhaps "like most cults" is overselling the argument. A lot of groups that aren't cults sell literature on university campuses or airports. I've removed the first three words from the passage.

• "It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls." Bullshit, if you'll pardon my French.

I believe this was proven in court

Then you should have no problem documenting it. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy (see significant omissions from the current version).

Again, the court findings are against you here.

Again, you haven't seen the court findings. You have read the Washington Post version, probably second hand from King or Berlet. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• "One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring."

so what's wrong with this?

Nothing, other than the fact that it ain't so.

Are the court transcripts online?AndyL 16:38, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Note that my new list, posted yesterday, takes into account the changes you have made. And my post at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche/Evidence acknowledges that you have in fact marginally improved the article. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:01, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Andy, it would probably be more useful if you were to append further responses to the new list, that has been dubbed "3.0" --Herschelkrustofsky 21:00, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Additions to updated list of "wild fabrications from former NCLC member Jeremy Gorman

• "He now maintains that he was soon disillusioned with Marxism and stayed in the SWP only as an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation."

--This can be confirmed in Larouche's Biography "The Power of Reason"

• "Once again, LaRouche now maintains that he was an FBI agent during all this activism."

• "In the 1970s LaRouche developed an intense interest in fascism, and began to adopt some of its slogans and practices, while maintaining (as he still does) an outward stance of anti-fascism." LaRouche developed an intense interest in preventing fascism. What "slogans and practices" does Adam allege that he adopted?

• "He began to regard himself and his followers as "Prometheans," superior to all other people" This is a fabrication. LaRouche counterposed the term "Promethean" to Friedrich Nietzsche's categories of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" in the discussion of Aesthetics, arguing that Nietzsche's approach was wrong.

==Similarly, what is now taught is that Larouche and his followers are/are training to be Plato's Philosopher Kings, and that Larouche "the only qualified such candidate in sight to save this nation" quote from Barry Farber interview

• "...under his direction the NCLC adopted violent and disruptive tactics, physically attacking meetings of the SWP, the Communist Party and other groups, who were classed by LaRouche as "left-protofascists." During "Operation Mop-Up," NCLC members engaged in a series of well-documented beatings of members of these groups." "Well-documented" would mean arrests; if you intend to accept allegations in the press by LaRouche's opponents, you ought to also include the FOIA airtel, which is actually "well-documented".

===During my stay operation mop-up was described to me by leaders of the movement as a "counter-attack" in which they all learned Judo or Karate, and used blunt weapons to break up Socialist/Communist gatherings, who apparently had threatened Larouche followers physically.

• "During the 1970s LaRouche steered the NCLC away from the left and towards the extreme right, while retaining some of the slogans and attitudes of the left (as did the founder of fascism, the ex-Socialist Benito Mussolini, and many others since)." The business about steering toward the extreme right is a myth, and even if it were not, trying to make a comparison to Mussolini would be propagandistic innuendo.

• "The Marxist concept of the ruling class was converted by LaRouche into a gigantic conspiracy theory, in which world capitalism was controlled by a secret cabal including the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, Henry Kissinger, the Council on Foreign Relations and other standard villains of the extreme right, many though not all of them Jewish." Propagandistic crap. Adam is pulling a little sleight of hand here, trying to lump LaRouche in with the right-wing conspirophiles. In addition, it is not the case that "many" of LaRouche's opponents are Jewish. And, Adam wishes to imply that LaRouche is attacking someone because they are Jewish; this sort of thing trivializes anti-Semitism, by implying that anyone who ever criticized someone with a Jewish name is an anti-Semite.

===I was taught to tell people we don't hate Jews, we hate "Zioninsts", and other bad jews, and to support that one Jew, Mendohlssen, was named as a good guy. In private, Larouche activists would continuallly point out to me how "It's the Jews".

• "Despite LaRouche's rhetorical skill in presenting them as revolutionary, LaRouche's economic ideas are hardly original: they are similar to the policies of Germany under Bismarck and the statism of Spain under Franco and Portugal under Salazar." This is less obviously ridiculous than Adam's original formulation, but no less false. The models for LaRouche are Lincoln and FDR. That's what he says, that's what he means, end of story.

• "LaRouche did not develop his current political and economic ideas in the 1950s or '60s: until at least 1969 he was a Trotskyist, although an increasingly unorthodox one." Adam is a mind-reader?

==Also can be backed up in the Power of Reason

• "Although the expression "Eurasian Land-Bridge," for example, has been used to refer to the proposed Asian Highway, there is no evidence that LaRouche has ever had anything to do with this project." Deception -- the Landbrige and Asian Highway are not the same thing, nor has anyone outside of Adam and his cohort Andy asserted that they were -- combined with deliberate fallacy of composition.

• "This followed a concerted campaign by LaRouche to develop close relations with the Reagan Administration, by publishing flattering articles about administration officials in the LaRouche press." Innuendo; LaRouche publications wrote articles that were both favorable and highly critical of various officials and policies.

• "Since 1979 LaRouche has concentrated on infiltrating his followers into the Democratic Party." Innuendo. I myself registered as a Democrat in 1972. Did I "infiltrate" the party? Wesley Clark registered as a Democrat just in time to declare his candidacy for the 2004 election. Did he "infiltrate"?

==Infiltrate in the sense that Larouche is not recognized by the Democrat party but continues to claim allegiance.

• "The use of the NDPC name has, however, allowed LaRouche followers to compete seriously in Democratic primaries for lesser offices, and even occasionally to win them." Innuendo. What allows LaRouche followers to compete seriously is the fulfillment of petitioning and othe legal requirements. The NDPC was a Political Action Committee like any other.

• "The best known example was in 1986, when a LaRouche candidate, Mark Fairchild, won the Democratic primary for the post of Lieutenant-Governor of Illinois." There were two candidates, the other being Janice Hart, about whom there is an article in Wikipedia. I attempted to correct this early, and my correction was immediately reverted by Adam.

• "Some of the LaRouche organization's successes have come from exploiting public fears about the AIDS epidemic, which they blame on international conspirators." If this sort of innuendo is given any credence, any candidate who puts forward a concrete solution to a contemporary problem (as LaRouche did, by arguing that AIDS should be restored to California's list of communicable diseases and made subject to public health law), can be charged with "exploiting public fears" about that problem. Did FDR "exploit public fears" about the Great Depression? And, LaRouche never blamed AIDS on any international conspirators.

==I learned in the Larouche movement that AIDS was created at Fort Deitrich, MD.

• (regarding charges of anti-Semitism): "LaRouche for his part has denied these accusations, asserting that those who accuse him are part of the oligarchic conspiracy to rule the world." Nonsense; LaRouche simply asserted that those who accuse him are liars. Adam's propaganda would be more effective if he didn't lay it on so thick.

===That is the largest part of the "movement" that the conspiracy against him has been going on for centuries, and that all who denigrate him are unwittingly part of the conspiracy, himself representing Good Platonic Ideas, and Others representing Bad Aristotelian ideas

• "From the early 1970s LaRouche regularly used the word "Zionist" as a term of abuse. The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is a common practice among anti-Semitic groups." Deliberate fallacy of composition -- in 1978, the LaRouche organization published a feature article in Campaigner entitled "Zionism is not Judaism." I notice that some wag added "The use of "Zionist" as a code word for "Jew" is particularly noticeable in the 1978 publication by the LaRouche organisation entitled Zionism is not Judaism."

• "In the 1970s also, LaRouche developed connections with the Ku Klux Klan and the Liberty Lobby, a leading extreme right group, both well- known for anti-Semitism." I dare you to attempt to document this. What are "connections"? This is innuendo.

=

• "In NCLC publications during the 1970s the Jews were accused of running the slave trade, controlling organized crime and the drug trade." LaRouche has never accused "the Jews", nor any other ethnic or religious group, of running orcontrolling anything. He has accused Jewish-surnamed individuals such as Meyer Lansky with trafficking in narcotics, just as he has accused non-Jewish-surnamed individuals.

• "LaRouche also claimed that the "Zionist lobby" controlled the U.S. government and the United Nations." Utterly false. LaRouche has accused the "Zionist lobby", by which is meant principally AIPAC and allied organizations, of pursuing a policy that is harmful to both Israel and the U.S. He has never asserted that they control the U.S. government, let alone the United Nations, which has often passed resolutions that displease AIPAC.

• "In 1978 LaRouche described the Holocaust as mostly "mythical," and his German second wife, Helga Zepp-LaRouche, dismissed it as a "swindle." These references are sourced in Dennis King's book Lyndon LaRouche and the New American Fascism." They are not "sourced" unless quoted; if King had direct quotes, I am quite certain he would have included them, instead of asking us to accept his characterizations.

• "In 1981 LaRouche said that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II, and that their deaths were not the result of a deliberate campaign of extermination by the Nazis." Provide a quote, or delete.

• "There is even a word of praise for Walther Rathenau, an archetypal Jewish business figure of the kind so savagely denounced by LaRouche throughout his career." Innuendo: provide an example of a "Jewish business figure" who was "savagely denounced by LaRouche."

• "He explicity states that "Yes, Hitler killed millions of Jews," a direct repudiation of his 1981 statement that only 1.5 million died and those not as a result of a deliberate plan of extermination." Fallacy of composition; LaRouche cannot "directly repudiate" something that he did not say.

• "It also operates more sophisticated telemarketing groups, soliciting donations by phone, usually under the guise of various patriotic front organisations to conceal the real source of the phone calls." Bullshit, if you'll pardon my French.

• "The funds thus raised were then directed into a maze of dummy companies so as to avoid both taxation and attempts to recover the 'loans.'" Attempts to recover the loans were blocked by one source only: the U.S. government trustees that took over the companies, after the government-imposed involuntary bankruptcy (see significant omissions from the current version).

• "One of the most damning aspects of the trial was the revelation of LaRouche's personal corruption. While lenders were told that LaRouche had no money to repay their loans, he in fact spent US$4.2 million on real estate in Virginia and on "improvements" to his 200-acre Leesburg estate. These included a swimming pool and horse riding ring."

Each one of these inventions or propagandistic insinuations constitutes a violation of Wikipedia policy; (see Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not). --Herschelkrustofsky 21:20, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)