Talk:List of jōyō kanji/Archive 1

Archive 1

Kyujitai/Shinjitai for 冊/册

I think someone got the order incorrect for 冊/册 in regards to Kyujitai/Shinjitai... Don't know how things work in Japan, but in China, 册 is simplified, while 冊 is traditional. Refer to Wiktionary. Just to let you know. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs 08:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

You're right, 冊 is traditional and 册 is simplified. But they should not simply be reversed, as 册 is generally not used in Japanese. Perhaps 册 was used in Japan at one time (before modern language reforms)? If so, it would be counted as kyūjitai in Japan. If it was never widely used in Japan then perhaps it should be removed entirely, or the "Old" column should be renamed "Alternate." -Amake (talk) 13:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Kun’yomi Examples for 貯

There are no Kun’yomi spellings for 貯. I suggest ta-maru (to accumulate) and ta-meru (to save).

85.2.23.180 (talk) 17:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The kanji order used here seems incorrect

I have only checked the first couple of chartacters, but I think that the order the characters are given in is not the order recognized by the Japanese government or the Japanese Kanji Apptitude Testing Association (Kanken/日本漢字能力検定協会). I suggest that if Wikipedia is going to list all of the kanji in their proper order that they follow the Kanken system since this is the system that is recognized in Japan.Bogin (talk) 06:56, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not so simple. It seems there is no consistency -- some texts use bushu order, some use aiueo order. I much prefer bushu (radical) order since the easier ones come first. 69.125.146.118 (talk) 19:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I sugest splitting by grade, that would be very practical for people trying to learn Kanji. Addicted2Sanity (talk) 11:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I concur. The order of the Kanji here is incomprehensible and it makes no sense at all. In Japan the Kanji are taught in a certain order, the same order in which they are written in the vast majority of text-books: divided into grades of course, but more importantly - the list of Kanji within each grade ordered with a basic logic: i.e. "one two three four" etc... and not "one fourth seven ten-thousand length" ... ??? I suggest to preserve the aforementioned order to maintain a logic: order characters by their Japanese elementary school order (I have no idea what this order is called, but it makes sense so I'll call it the "logical" order) - this will make this page more usable, comprehensible, and logical. 85.65.154.89 (talk) 21:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Change "S" to "7+"

The table doesn't sort properly by grade when "S" is used to represent secondary school. Can this be changed to "7+"? I'd change it, but my browser is prohibiting me from doing so. --  Denelson83  23:57, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Readings

I've noticed that this list has readings that aren't included in the actual jōyō kanji list. —JadziaLover ^{(talk | contribs)} 14:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone has added many non-joyo readings

I was going to use this table to prepare an "official" chart of joyo kanji for myself, but some person or persons have made a hash of it by adding non-joyo readings to MANY entries. Given the title of the article, presumably the table should reflect the official joyo readings only. If you want to see other readings or show off your erudution, go to the appropriate wiktionary page and edit there.

Because it will be extremely difficult to go through the table line by line to correct it, I suggest the following solution:

- Delete the chart.

- Copy/paste in the chart from the Japanese page of this entry.

- Add romaji if thought necessary.

- Separate on and kun readings into separate columns if thought necessary.

- LOCK THIS PAGE FROM EDITING!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.46.216 (talk) 00:02, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary Column is SIlly and Redundant

I suggest we remove it and have the kanji themselves link to Wiktionary, as is in the Japanese article. This way, we could also have the Kyuujitai kanji link to Wiktionary. I know that the page was originally like that (except for Kyuujitai), and I can't imagine why N.Mori decided to change it. I can do this myself, but I wanted some input before I made such a major (albeit cosmetic) change. ~ WindOwl (talk) 14:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

A slight problem: when trying to copy-and-paste a character/symbol with a link attached to it, you often end up with the URL to the linked page OR the character with a semi-permanent chain on it to the linked page. If it were moved, say, to the far right where nobody can see it, or perhaps was made less visible in some manner, it would be better. However, doing what you said would be preferable to leaving it alone. Tfba (talk) 18:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I have begun making all the kanji links to Wiktionary, so we can remove the Wiktionary column. I'm not sure what Tfba is referring to. The only minor problem I see is that the kyuujitai that are written in code to display correctly don't have wiktionary pages, and so redundantly link to the respective current kanji. Anyway, the process is rather slow- if anyone wants to chip in, it'd be appreciated. The only thing to keep in mind is that the kanji which are written as a combination of numbers & letters should not become links.Forbes72 (talk) 02:11, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Too long, suggest a split.

This article is too long, it should probably be split up.Grawgzor (talk) 23:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

As one list, it is much easier to search than if broken up. John Pinkerton 16 May 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.42.167 (talk) 00:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

• I would seperate this into radicals. I would have every radical as a heading and have one page for one stroke radicals, one for two strokes, etc., the downside being that the pages would be disproportionate. However, as the page is already organised by radical and that radicals are the most offical method of looking-up characters, I think this would be the most appropriate method. Other distrubutions could be by stroke order or grade. As characters can have many different readings, alphabetical is out of the question.

If it is deemed best to split the article and a method is chosen, I woudl be willing to organise it by myself. Please voice your opinions soon as I would prefer to do this on a friday. Kanjo Kotr (not logged in) Kanjo Kotr (talk) 22:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is associated with a page split, but the sorting function does not work properly. Sort by grades and you will see what I mean (no general order with "sorted"). The S's are scattered throughout the chart, and the numbers 1 through 5 are in a seemingly random order (not the same order as the non-sorted chart). Perhaps split the chart into grades, or 1-6 and S? --Onejsin (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Personally I do think that this should be split up. There's already a page covering and listing the Kyōiku kanji which is the subset of this list covered in elementary school. So, half of the material covered by this list is already covered elsewhere anyway. I don't think it would hurt to list just the Kanji covered in secondary school here and link to the rest on the the Kyōiku kanji page. Aurickandrien (talk) 04:58, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's a long list because there are a lot of kanji on the list. If you'd like to convince MEXT to shorten the list, be my guest.

There's already a separate article simply about the list at Jōyō kanji. I don't see any reason to shorten this article. -Amake (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Also disagree with split. Sort by grade seems to work fine now. The list is definitely long, but it's comprehensive, and can't be broken up without loss of search functionality.Forbes72 (talk) 02:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Restructuring the jōyō list in light of the official joyo table, using the one found in Japanese Wikipedia as a template.

There are several aspects of the current table that I an dissatisfied with.

• The table includes uncommon readings for the kanji that Japanese readers do not encounter frequently. I suspect that well-wishing Japanese learners equipped with EDICT/KANJIDIC in one form or another are responsible for this.
• There is no way to sort by on-reading or kun-reading. The default ordering corresponds to the way this list is presented in several websites, but is not consistent with the lexicographic ordering of the official document and the Japanese Wikipedia website. Of course, the consistency bit is merely a minor quibble, but I think that the ability to sort the table lexicographically would be a good bonus.
• Some of the kanji listed do not have an individual, standalone meaning (corollary, they have no kun-reading counterpart), as they are found only in set Sino-Japonic compounds words. The official jōyō list includes example compound words for each reading in the list, recognizing that the meaning and connotation of each kanji is more vividly illustrated by including the more frequent words the kanji is used in. In a sense, they have no alternative to explain the meanings as they have no recourse to an English translation.
• The Wiktionary column is still there.

Adding onto 71.101.46.216's previous comment, I propose the following,

• Use the Japanese Wikipedia's entry as a template.
• Add the English 'meaning' of each kanji in a new column beside the kanji.
• Reformat such that each reading is on a separate line within a table cell.
  • Justification: Separating into On-reading and Kun-reading columns will be deprecated as quite a number of kanji do not have Kun-readings and a couple have no On-readings. The default ordering given in the official document sorts by on-reading before kun-reading, then by frequency of the reading. This seems to me to be the most logical way to order the readings, as the learner will get a feel as to the main readings of the kanji, differences between its Sinic flavor and native meaning, and its accessory connotations.
• Add romaji in a new column beside the readings column, broken by newlines.
• Add the examples found in the official document to the table in a new column, formatted similarly to the readings column.
• Add romaji and menglish meanings of each example to the table in a new column, formatted similarly to the examples.
• Add the supplementary table to the page, also found in the Japanese Wikipedia article.
  • I have not decided yet how I should format the supplementary table.

I am currently in the process of creating a spreadsheet in such a format; if I get it to a presentable form in Wikipedia syntax I will upload it to my User page (for safekeeping), and then also to this page.Belleberstinge (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Meaning of readings in brackets?

Anyone knows what it means when a reading is in brackets as for example number 22? "依; reliant; イ、（エ）" --93.220.14.30 (talk) 01:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I've added a note in the introduction regarding bracketed readings, with a reference to the official document. Basically readings which are in brackets are special readings or rare readings, or used only in prefecture names. laug (talk) 05:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

What can be done about the slowness of this page?

This page is virtually unusable for me (Win XP, IE 8). It takes minutes to load, and would be effectively impossible to edit should I ever want to. Trouble is, I agree with the other arguments above that splitting into sub-lists would also impair usability. Anyone got any great ideas? I think it's the huge table, more than just the number of characters, that really kills IE. What's it like in other browsers? 86.179.118.99 (talk) 19:37, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Works nice on Google Chrome --Ita140188 (talk) 10:58, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Slowness of page, size etc

Hi All, I believe I have a way of increasing the speed of the load time and still keeping all functionality, but first I need to be sure that it meets any and all requirements of the majority of our users, so before offering any solution and testing within the Japan group, I have a couple of questions and clarifications;
1. The added items in 2010, totalling 198 items, or just less than 9.3%, what was added? Can we add a reference to the relevant column(s) and individual jōyō kanji items and then remove this column and notations?
2. A talk item above mentions 7+ for sorting the grades, if this could be notated in the lead brief, to advise "7+" is secondary school and above, this will also remove many bytes of scripting/wiki text, which could assist in reducing the overall size, is this in any way acceptable? (I may already have a solution for this part, however I need to clarify here and seek the appropriate advice)
3. Is sorting by Radical a requirement or more accurately just information on the jōyō kanji itself, to be more explicit, could an approach be to remove the sort ability of the Radicals as users will only refer to them based on the old or new only?
Aside from the above, I can still clean up a little, however, I would rather optimise, test and then load all in one agreed release rather than piecemeal, please feel free to comment, offer suggestion or advice etc
Kind regards
The Original Filfi (talk) 12:25, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

English meanings again

It was mentioned here: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Talk:J%C5%8Dy%C5%8D_kanji#English_meanings but it seems many of the translations are just the first ones listed in Jim Breen's KANJIDIC. If that is the case, the line "English translations provided are the most common definition" is not just unfounded (none of the pages detailing the KANJIDIC file ever state the meanings are sorted by frequency of use, just that they come from "many sources") but most likely false and might cause confusion. 130.89.228.82 (talk) 14:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

These definitions can be improved. Give up on the single word rule and show two or three variants when it is helpful.69.125.146.118 (talk) 20:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with 69.125.146.118. For example, 上 should have a more comprehensive definition. It doesn't just mean "above", it also means "to go up". And there was one verb on there - I can't look it up now - which had a translation "excuse". Was it ex-KYUUZ, as in "Excuse me" or EX-kyoos as in "'My dog ate it' is a bad excuse"? There's no need for an "Example Column", goodness knows what sort of pedantic grammar arguments that would spawn, but it needs to have some sort of synonym if it's ambiguous like that.Tfba (talk) 19:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This page is then incorrect, it's like saying for brevity were going to include just one On-Yomi and one Kun-Yomi. Each Kanji has different meanings - if, for "brevity" purposes, you include only one meaning then delete the page entirely, there's no way to keep one meaning and make it correct no matter how common the one meaning is, again that's like saying we're going to keep one of the most popular on-yomi & kun-yomi - There's no way you can do it.Wiseguy12851 (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2011 (UTC) just an opinion, those 'meanings' are straight alone translations of the character in japanese and not the true meanings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.111.37 (talk) 18:29, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Character 1635

This character is listed as 剝, but I've looked at a number of different references and believe this to be erroneous. I believe the character should be 剥 instead. Can anyone confirm this? 173.166.110.9 (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The character currently on the page 剝 is technically correct. To see for yourself, please check this pdf on page 126. For historical reasons though the character 剥 is more commonly used in Japan in practice. Footnote 7 explains that while 剝 is the official way of writing the character, 剥 is also acceptable. laug (talk) 05:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

radical of 声

This page currently lists the radical of 声 to be Radical 128, but I believe that this is wrong, and that the radical is Radical 32. Radical 128 is the radical of this kanji's corresponding kyūjitai, 聲. Maybe that was the source of the mistake, if this is one? --haplo (talk) 07:12, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Just to point out, I think you meant Radical 33, not 32. And I'll also point out that 声 is listed as one of the examples on radical 33's article.--十八 10:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Broken Link

The link to the Japanese government's jouyou kanji list (citation 2) is broken, resulting in a 404 error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.41.40.107 (talk) 12:30, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. I have repaired the dead link so hopefully it works OK now. - Marchjuly (talk) 14:28, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Improper use of macrons

I don't think any common romanization method would render readings like テイ as "tē" (it should be "tei"). I'd go through and fix this, but it's way too much work. -Amake (talk) 07:32, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know detailed romanization. It fixed. [1] --N.Mori (talk) 10:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Fast work! Thanks. -Amake (talk) 13:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a big error, Unlike Chinese, The romanization of Japanese directly converts to our 26 letter alphabet - This article still contains o's such as (gō) that has the line above it. No romanization has any lines at all above it in any form despite the fact that these are imported Chinese characters, they are very different in Japan.Wiseguy12851 (talk) 15:46, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The Wiseguy12851 may read the following page https://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#Long_vowels which deals with a standard way to romanize (not ascii-ize :)) 176.158.67.14 (talk) 18:31, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe those are for the elongated sounds (e.g., Tōkyō and Toukyou). It is only used for ou into ō however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.89.137.233 (talk) 01:43, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

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Do we need the kana?

Most kanji dictionaries/textbooks don't include both romanized and kana readings, and I think I know why: the kana are only conceivably useful for people who can already read them, and people like that don't actually need to see the kana -- they can guess the kana from just the rōmaji. We can give on-yomi in caps and kun-yomi in lower case like Spahn/Hadamitzky (I think it doesn't matter which of their books). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:18, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

By the way, I'm asking here because such a radical change seemed inappropriate to (begin) implement(ing) myself. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:20, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the romaji and kanji are largely redundant. However, standard romanization can sometimes lose a bit of information, so we'd have to use a non-standard method to distinguish certain differences and somehow make sure that these aren't edited out later. I also think the readings column (and possibly this entire article) is only going to be useful to people who already know kana, so it could be better to just drop the romaji instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A457:9497:1:6506:3D2E:A9D2:9E91 (talk) 12:21, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Kanji variants

I hope people don’t forget the “old” Kanji column is still incomplete (and I think the proper name would be Kanji “variants”). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.196.134.33 (talk) 17:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Including every variant is pretty much impossible and is outside the scope of this article. I think limiting it to "variants once commonly used in Japan" is a good thing. -Amake (talk) 13:45, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I've compared this list against http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ax2s-kmtn/ref/old_chara.html and found some discrepancies, highlighted here in red: http://pastehtml.com/view/1cq1jr5.html. In particular, I don't think 岡 is the old variant of 丘; also, while 姬 does seem to be an old version of 姫, it's not listed by Asahi (or Kanjidic for that matter; maybe it's not used in Japan at all?) I won't make any changes to the list, but could someone more knowledgeable please take a look. 178.168.29.31 (talk) 22:35, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

You are right. I removed 岡. Thank you for pointing that out. As for 姫, I think the reason of 姬 is not listed by the external links is the matter of their computer fonts they have. In fact, computer fonts do not have all kyujitai. BTW, Asahi is a provider name and the name of the personal site is Cyber Librarian. Oda Mari (talk) 05:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion the table should clearly identify the following cases:

1. Official kyūjitai/shinjitai pairs as marked by （） in the standard Jōyō table.
2. Official stylistic variants as marked by [] in the same document.
3. Any other simplifications or variants go in a separate column.

If you’re willing to add this info to the table, I’ve extracted official kyūjitai (case 1 above) from the latest (Heisei 22) Jōyō Kanji Hyō PDF; the results are available in http://namakajiri.net/kanjigen/shinjitai.txt . Notice that several kyūjitai in wikipedia’s table (namely 姬 冰 沒 舍 舖 鬪 隸 顏 飮 齅 ) are not in the official document.

leoboiko (talk) 16:06, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

There was no reply so I went ahead and changed the Old column to the standard data. For reference, here's how I extracted said data from the official Jōyō table:

1. I converted the PDF to text using Apache’s pdfbox, with the command:

   java -jar pdfbox-app-1.6.0.jar ExtractText

2. The old forms are listed in the file as single characters between CJK parenthesis following the new form; I extracted them on Linux with the command:

   sed -n -e "s/^[[:space:]]*\([^[[:space:]]\)[[:space:]]*（\(.\)）.*/\1 \2/p"

3. Two rows in the original table (those of 弁 and 餅) are multiline and couldn’t be extracted with the above command, so I added them manually.
4. The traditional form of 亀 appears not to be encoded as an Unicode character in the PDF, but the reference glyph appears to be the identical to U+9F9C 龜, so I added it manually.

I then double-checked the data against the Unihan database, and manually verified all differences. John H. Jenkins tells me this data will be used in a future version of Unihan.

It might be interesting to add back the kyūjitai I removed, as well as other Unihan variants, Chinese simplified, stylistic variants, itaiji, ryakuji, extended/Asahi shinjitai, &c.&c. But I think the government-sanctioned variants should be clearly marked as such, so there you go.

leoboiko (talk) 19:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

As noted above, it would be great to include info besides the official kyūjitai, such as official stylistic variants, other simplifications/variants, and non-official kyūjitai. However I think we all agree that makes this page even more stuffed with info and too many table columns. The Japanese article handles some of this with additional footnotes. For example, see footnote [4] next to 喩. That footnote includes some explanation and links to Page 9 of the Official Joyo List, where we find 喻 as an official (non-kyūjitai) variant of 喩 (actually you have to scroll to p10 to see this, p9 is just the start of this section). I'd prefer including those variants directly on Wikipedia. How about making a new article Variants of jōyō kanji? This would keep the main article clean and allow significantly more detail for variants of specific kanji. Micah Lindstrom (talk) 12:00, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Footnote 8 problem

although the officially correct form of those characters uses the forms: 辶 / 𩙿, it is permissible to use instead the forms 辶 / 飠

For me 辶 and 辶 display the same, so I don't understand what the footnote is trying to tell me. What's the difference supposed to be? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.61.180.106 (talk) 10:42, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Add Kanken Level

Please add the Kanji Kentei level of each Jōyō Kanji into the Table. I'll type a new section into the table, and you guys figure their Kanken levels out.

ThePricester (talk) 19:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

OK, I added a new section. Please add the Kanken Levels (in Japanese and English.) Between the Grade and the Year Added. This site should help.

[2]

ThePricester (talk) 19:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

zッr　エㇺlエエ

zlレddイェbrンlrrlレエエ 2603:7000:B901:D7DA:AD69:87E0:3819:7D39 (talk) 01:36, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

しくそ

しくそ 182.239.89.133 (talk) 14:42, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

I Found A Vandalism

Waiter is said to be read samurai. And, Samurai as warrior was removed from the list. 184.101.180.241 (talk) 02:53, 1 March 2023 (UTC)