Talk:List of castles and châteaux in Belgium

RfC: What word should we use for châteaus/manor houses/kasteel? Does using the word 'castle' for these even make sense?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closing as no consensus - a lot of interesting opinions have been raised here, however there doesn't seem any particularly clear way forward. Certainly palace, chateaux for the French speaking part of Belgium and castle/Kasteel all have support.

With regards of how cases should be handled I would suggest WP:TITLE is followed for individual cases and that if this list is to be renamed then a separate narrower move request is started.

With regards to List of castles in Bavaria I think the difference there is that the most famous example Neuschwanstein is definitively referred to as a castle - although it comes from a much later period than English/other castles generally come from, so I'd be cautious of applying Bavaria as a precedent. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

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I'd like to start by pointing out that there is no dispute behind this RfC, just uncertainty as to how to proceed. Also, because the question at hand is what word makes the most sense to use in English, it's probably best that commenters be native English speakers or at least mention their native language when commenting.

A very large number of the places translated as 'castle' here are not in fact castles (fortified, thick walls, etc.), but rather châteaus or manor houses or something like that. [I will use the term 'château' from now on for simplicity although I'm still not sure that's the best word.] As a random example, see Le Rœulx Castle. A page I've already moved (but I'm not sure if this is the perfect name) is Arenberg Château. This situation has arisen because in both French and Dutch, the two local languages, there's only one word for both 'château' and 'castle' (these are 'château' and 'kasteel', respectively), so it never occurs to the majority of Belgians that there might even be two different words in English. As a result, most locally-made webpages or Wikipedia pages written by well-meaning Belgians refer to whatever château they're advertising as a castle.

So what should we call these pages? Each word has its own problem. I'm pretty sure 'castle' is not the right word for these things, so we probably can't keep using that. A problem with the word 'château' is that it is obviously of French origin, so it when the château is in the Dutch-speaking part of the country, it seems like we're favouring the non-local French, which is a touchy subject in Belgium [edit: Perhaps I overstated the gravity of the problem. Château`s status as a word coming from French makes it non-ideal (none of them are), but not inexcusable -Oreo Priest ^talk]. Still, something like country house or manor or manor house seems to give a bit of an undesired British flavour to it, and a title like 'Arenberg Manor House' seems strange and awkward to me. We could try calling the ones where Dutch is local something like 'Kasteel van Arenberg', but I think that risks being unclear to English speakers.

Lastly, the page List of castles in Belgium itself seems to have a fundamental problem. We could call it List of castles and châteaux in Belgium, but that raises the question of why what seems like two separate subjects are together in one list. For reference, List of castles in the United Kingdom has only actual castles on it. Thoughts? -Oreo Priest ^talk 17:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

May I recommend palace? [[1]] You're right, I think English speakers do really relate "chateau" to the French or even Swiss--and we don't really make the palais/chateau distinction. For example, "Speakers of English think of the "Palace of Versailles" because it was the residence of the king of France, and the king was the source of power, though the building has always remained the Château de Versailles for the French." Siirie (talk) 19:24, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I absolutely agree that 'palace' is the best choice where appropriate. (Royal Castle of Laeken will probably be moved shortly to Royal Palace of Laeken.) The problem is that a great number of these were not residences for royalty, and a number of them are not grand enough to be reasonably called a 'palace' in my opinion (Château Malou for example). -Oreo Priest ^talk 19:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. I prefer "château", but since that's a touchy word in Belgium "palace" seems like the best compromise. All the best, Miniapolis (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Very interesting problem. Have you considered posing the question to members of a group like WikiProject Architecture? Le Rœulx "Castle" is clearly not a castle. It looks to be more a manor house or stately home. I can see why palace might work, but that term generally implies (to my ear as a native speaker of Americanish) a structure that is both large and ostentatious, or, if it is not ostentatious (eg Buckingham Palace), has a direct connection with royalty. Dezastru (talk) 04:28, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

This problem (except for the language-sensitive part) is probably not limited to Belgium, see for example the Dutch Nemerlaer Castle which I now know is not a castle in English... SPQRobin (talk) 18:27, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Good idea. I posted it there. Oreo Priest ^talk 21:47, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

My personal preference is to use the word château, but when the building is in the Dutch-speaking part of the country to phrase the first line in such a way that it's clear that we're not using the French. Arenberg Château is a good example. -Oreo Priest ^talk 19:36, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I would think that, unless a building is so well known it has an English equivalent name (e.g. Palace of Versailles), it should take the name in the local language. As other people have said, a chateau can be described in English in many different ways according to its size and function. Sionk (talk) 20:17, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, you think that a page should be called, for example, Kasteel van Arenberg? And what about inline? Should we call it a château or call it something different? -Oreo Priest ^talk 21:44, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what the best way to proceed here is, but just in my personal experience as a native English speaker who's read other native English speakers writing about big houses in Belgium, château seems to be used no matter what region in Belgium the building in question is in. Again, this is just my vague impression of common usage, not a detailed survey or a solid suggestion for how to move forward. --Lost tiree, lost dutch :O (talk) 19:39, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

A comment from WikiProject Architecture: Similar discussions have taken place with Schloss and the pages referenced from List of castles in Germany. You could use the general term historical residence but then this could then expand to any form of house. I would however tend towards leaving the term castle which is a commonly used term, if technically incorrect, then providing an explanation at the start of the page as with List of castles in Bavaria. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:05, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

[Note: I think he's talking about the list page itself rather than the individual articles' pages. -Oreo Priest ^talk 17:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)]

Hi, there seem to be two distinct issues here: 1) which word to use in the titles of articles, and 2) which word to use in the name of the list. The first one is easy since titles are governed by WP:TITLE: use the term most commonly used in reliable English-language sources (separately for each article). For example, the article on the French kings' pile is titled "Palace of Versailles" since that's the most common English term. For the second point, I think "castles and chateaux" would be fine for the name of the list. Even just "castle" would be narrowly OK since the definition could be read to (just) encompass any stately residence. --Dailycare (talk) 09:51, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not clear if this discussion is now over, but as no obvious conclusion is visible, I'll add my view. For the French-speaking part of the country, surely the same well-established formula should be used as with comparable French buildings, i.e., Château de... which not only avoids the problem of translation but is also the commonest way to refer to them in English (pace User:Oreo Priest, the formula "Arenberg Chateau" really sounds odd, and quite non-Anglophone, and would be better avoided). Those in Dutch-speaking areas are trickier. "Palace" as a general term is inacccurate: very few of these buildings are palaces. I would see no huge problem either with "... Castle" subject to some explanation, or with individual translations building by building. "Palace" as a general term is inacccurate: very few of these buildings are palaces. But because it would avoid so many difficulties of translation (and because "Château" as a French word seems inappropriate for use in Dutch-speaking parts of Belgium), my preferred option would be Kasteel van .... Jsmith1000 (talk) 23:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

You make very good points. With your permission, I would like to propose the following as a final proposal for vetting by others:

• Use the 'chateau' names for the French and the 'kasteel' names for the Dutch.

• I also think we should translate the obvious castles and palaces to those things. Thoughts?
• I think all the chateaus should be described as chateaus on their pages. Thoughts?

• This page should explain that the distinction does not exist in French or Dutch. As a result, we shouldn't be the ones making a distinction between them.

• I also think we should rename this page List of castles and châteaux in Belgium (spelling up for debate). Thoughts?

I look forward to hearing people's thoughts on this. Oreo Priest ^talk 18:39, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Of note if you guys wish to continue to discuss this I see no problem with that. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

I would like to propose the following as a final proposal for vetting by others:

• Use the 'chateau' names for the French and the 'kasteel' names for the Dutch.

• I also think we should translate the obvious castles and palaces to those things. Thoughts?
• I think all the chateaus should be described as chateaus on their pages. Thoughts?

• This page should explain that the distinction does not exist in French or Dutch. As a result, we shouldn't be the ones making a distinction between them.

• I also think we should rename this page List of castles and châteaux in Belgium (spelling up for debate). Thoughts?

I look forward to hearing people's thoughts on this. Oreo Priest ^talk 18:39, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I am so sorry not to have responded to this earlier. Having taken several months - off and on - to think about it, I now wonder whether a better way to go might be to copy what has been done with the French equivalents, i.e.: a main list of castles proper - distinguished as châteaux forts from ordinary châteaux - covering the whole country; plus a series of lists, department by department, of both châteaux forts and châteaux which are not castles. This list would then remain List of castles in Belgium, with the content pruned to castles proper. The new lists, one per province, would then be entitled either "List of castles and châteaux in X" or "List of castles and kasteele in X". (In case the word "kasteel" is objected to, it's possible to substitute the English "country house", which covers everything that isn't a castle). Also note: a) (a point that someone made earlier): "castle" can be fairly flexible and can include, for example, a building on the site of a previous castle of which nothing remains; b) if you are going to use "kasteel" there needs first to be an article on "kasteel" which explains it; c) the proper spelling of châteaux in this context is precisely that. Once again, my most sincere and grovelling apologies for taking so long.Jsmith1000 (talk) 00:37, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Allow me to respond with and apology my own delay. It seems like you have a good grasp on the issues. List of castles in Belgium and List of country houses in Belgium should cover everything fairly nicely I think, though I have a mild concern about sorting all of the entries into one of two camps, especially considering that I wouldn't know what camp in which to put the massive number of redlinked entries. My remaining concern is what to call individual pages in the kasteel case; do they remain 'kasteel', or do we try to slap them with a neologism like 'Beerlegem country house'? I find Kasteel Lagendal is a good example of this working well. It's this sort of thing that leads me to favour the solution that requires less action - simply leaving them in one, more appropriately named page than this one with their native titles in most cases (and creating a page or redirect to describe 'kasteel' is easy enough). So I'm open to your more rigorous and correct option, but I have reservations about the feasibility of its implementation. Thoughts? Oreo Priest ^talk 20:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

In principle I like the idea of having separate lists for castles proper and country houses. However, I'm not sure whether this is practical. Some castles will have been adapted to become country houses, or have been replaced entirely. If Oreo Priest and Jsmith1000 are happy that this could be done, I'm happy to support the idea. Otherwise, naming this page list of castles and châteaux in Belgium sounds good to me and would have the plus side of taking less work than deciding which entries fall into which list (some would presumably be both).

As for individual pages, I would tend towards using chateau and kasteel rather than imposing the title 'castle' which might confuse matters. Nev1 (talk) 18:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Great. Given that Nev1, Jsmith1000 and myself are in agreement with nobody dissenting, I think we can take this as a consensus. I'll move the page. Oreo Priest ^talk 16:52, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I've listed these conventions at Wikipedia:WikiProject Belgium/Castle, country house, château and kasteel naming conventions. Oreo Priest ^talk 17:26, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Good thinking. Nev1 (talk) 22:33, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Adding geo-coordinates to each castle

I propose to add to each castle its geo-location. I have already done a few. This is how it works (important: view this text in "edit" mode, to see the codes):

1. Go to www.openstreetmap.org
2. In the search bar, type in the name of the castle, and press "Go" (if you know how to locate the castle visually on the map, that's just as fine).
3. When you have located the castle on the map, put your pointer in the middle of it, and right-click. Select "Show address".
4. On the left the geo-coordinates of your pointer appear (e.g. 50.93359, 4.83216, the geo-coordinates of Horst Castle in Sint-Pieters-Rode). Copy these.
5. Paste the geo-coordinates in the code, which looks like 50.93359°N 4.83216°E / 50.93359; 4.83216
6. In Wikipedia, open the edit mode of the province the castle is in (in the example, that's Flemish Brabant).
7. find the castle in the list, and paste the geo-code (in the example, that's 50.93359°N 4.83216°E / 50.93359; 4.83216) behind the location (in the example, that's Sint-Pieters-Rode)
8. press "Publish"

Tavernsenses (talk) 11:42, 6 December 2019 (UTC)