Talk:List of Occupy movement protest locations/Archive 2
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| Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Tags
Could we please put more tags and disclaimers on the top of all these articles? Maybe the public reading these articles are not sufficiently confused yet. Uh, that is sarcasm, in case you don't get it. Trackinfo (talk) 21:28, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- «These» articles? This is the talk page of one specific article. And where do you see that many? This article had 2 maintenance tags - and zero disclaimers - at the the time of your writing here. I bet having 416 (!!) references is more confusing than that (and a clear hint of original research) - Nabla (talk) 00:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm curious as to how 416 references constitutes original research, i.e "facts, allegations, and ideas for which no reliable, published source exists." If there is a reference you question the reliability for, then you are free to discuss it. That however doesn't make the whole lot original research. — Moe ε 04:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is *similar* to Wikipedia:OR#Synthesis of published material that advances a position, as editors are putting together disconnected references to build a original list. The only reference to a list I can get is at map.15october.net listing planned events, but that one is not used at all for this list, and apparently is misquoted as currently it seems to list 1065 events, not 951 as the article lead says. - Nabla (talk) 11:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- What you fail to note, in the accusation of Synthesis, is that defines a conclusion. This is merely a list of documented locations where related protests are occurring. There is no conclusion drawn like "this means . . . " which would be synthesis. Each location I have added, and I have added many to this list, are using local sources that specifically identify demonstrations that are linked to the Occupy movement, using the same naming convention. Each source documents a clear relationship. Trackinfo (talk) 16:39, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- A list of places can not have a violation of synthesis, as Trackinfo has just stated. And if there is one conclusion in the article, the references provide that. The only conclusion one can draw is that these locations are a part of the Occupy movement or inspired to start by Occupy Wall Street, and every reference provides that. Synthesis is "reference A and reference B, therefore reference C". A list generally doesn't even provide that kind of information. Lists are generally one topic, reference A is about that, reference B is about that, reference C is about that, etc. — Moe ε 23:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Trackinfo, note that there is not any reference (used in here) about the *list* of events. You are putting the many references together to advance one conclusion: the conclusion that this *list* is a subject notable enough for an article. While it is not as there is no reference to a list of events anywhere. Point me a good published, third party list, not a copy of WP's list, and I'll remove my comments. Also note that I am not claiming that wp:Syhthesis applies here, only that is is somehow similar.
- Moe Epsilon, the kind of list you mention, a list of notable events (as in, worthy of a WP article), is the kind of list I have edited this article to be previously, just to be promptly reverted to the current state of a mostly random list of cities, with no real use for readers. - Nabla (talk) 01:49, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nabla, while most of these probably don't deserve their own individual article, this is a list of protests that have occurred which have been reliably referenced. This is not a list of protests that have enough notability to branch out and form its own page. If that were the case, you wouldn't be removing all of the red-link protests anyways. Some are notable and just haven't been created yet. There is no reason to mass blank and make people work to find references, cities, protest names and everything again. — Moe ε 05:25, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Compiling a mass of information into a cohesive article is what an encyclopedia, particularly wikipedia does best. Because no other single source does this compilation does not disqualify the accuracy of this compilation. This compilation is by the mass editing nature of wikipedia, better than any single source could hope to do or be expected to do. As a side note: I've created and do a lot of editing on many other list articles on a variety of subjects. Not one of them can reference back to a single source. Instead, wikipedia provides the opportunity to do a better, more timely job of keeping lists, even when there is an obvious single source. If we were to merely duplicate information from a single source, exactly how would that be different from a copyvio? Trackinfo (talk) 08:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Moe Epsilon, I understand you arguments, it just happen I disagree. I stated my arguments before, namely at AfD, and there is no point in doing that again for now.
- Trackinfo, lists are fine, and we might do it better than others - and the very first article I started in here is a list! That list I started long ago couldn't also be referenced to a single source but it had a main source. This one does not, and I argue it does not because no one (else) cared to make it, thus making it original work, and that is not what WP is for. Also that list I started pointed to articles about the subjects listed, not to their countries, i.e. it was - and still is - largely a navigational aid. This list is not, it actually confuses navigation, in my opinion. Using sources, even a single one, is not a copyvio if you use it as an inspiration, not as a copy&paste - but it is an interesting question indeed. I'll not get into it as it would be too much off-topic I guess (and yes, me going into OR was also a bit off-topic) - Nabla (talk) 12:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- If the issue is no main source, 3 out of the first 5 references have a map which groups all the protests together in a Google map format so people can zoom in and locate protests, and two of those maps have links to news story references. — Moe ε 00:25, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I noticed it (see above). Weird thing is that no one uses them as refs. Oh well... moving on - Nabla (talk) 03:02, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I know you said "moving on" and all, but I am working on that over at User:Timeshifter/Table 2, putting it into a table and trying to reference the start date of protests, the number of protesters, and whether it is an occupy protest or an indignados protest. I guess I'll move on as well. — Moe ε 03:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- No problem. It looks much better - I am still far from convinced about this, but something like that (sortable by number of participants/start-end/...) might be interesting. Good luck (in all), and enjoy. - Nabla (talk) 04:19, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- I know you said "moving on" and all, but I am working on that over at User:Timeshifter/Table 2, putting it into a table and trying to reference the start date of protests, the number of protesters, and whether it is an occupy protest or an indignados protest. I guess I'll move on as well. — Moe ε 03:24, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I noticed it (see above). Weird thing is that no one uses them as refs. Oh well... moving on - Nabla (talk) 03:02, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- If the issue is no main source, 3 out of the first 5 references have a map which groups all the protests together in a Google map format so people can zoom in and locate protests, and two of those maps have links to news story references. — Moe ε 00:25, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
- Compiling a mass of information into a cohesive article is what an encyclopedia, particularly wikipedia does best. Because no other single source does this compilation does not disqualify the accuracy of this compilation. This compilation is by the mass editing nature of wikipedia, better than any single source could hope to do or be expected to do. As a side note: I've created and do a lot of editing on many other list articles on a variety of subjects. Not one of them can reference back to a single source. Instead, wikipedia provides the opportunity to do a better, more timely job of keeping lists, even when there is an obvious single source. If we were to merely duplicate information from a single source, exactly how would that be different from a copyvio? Trackinfo (talk) 08:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nabla, while most of these probably don't deserve their own individual article, this is a list of protests that have occurred which have been reliably referenced. This is not a list of protests that have enough notability to branch out and form its own page. If that were the case, you wouldn't be removing all of the red-link protests anyways. Some are notable and just haven't been created yet. There is no reason to mass blank and make people work to find references, cities, protest names and everything again. — Moe ε 05:25, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is *similar* to Wikipedia:OR#Synthesis of published material that advances a position, as editors are putting together disconnected references to build a original list. The only reference to a list I can get is at map.15october.net listing planned events, but that one is not used at all for this list, and apparently is misquoted as currently it seems to list 1065 events, not 951 as the article lead says. - Nabla (talk) 11:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm curious as to how 416 references constitutes original research, i.e "facts, allegations, and ideas for which no reliable, published source exists." If there is a reference you question the reliability for, then you are free to discuss it. That however doesn't make the whole lot original research. — Moe ε 04:07, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
Comment. Don't feed the list deletionist trolls. See the essay WP:TROLL for more info. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:39, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I ask you to remove this nasty comment. I am presenting my opinion, you do not have to agree, or even comment, which is perfectly fine, but that is no reason for insulting! - Nabla (talk) 03:12, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is a general comment, not an insult. It is up to the reader to decide if it applies or not. I suggest people also read Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of "Occupy" protest locations. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I voted to delete this, and I insisted on asking you on why do you think the list is notable. You simply stated again and again that the Ocuppy movement is notable. You never gave any valid reason to this list being notable, and you (all) still can not give. You point to WP:TROLL and I guess the target is me not Trackinfo nor Moe Epsilon, so you are accusing me of «a deliberate, bad faith attempt to disrupt the editing of Wikipedia». I ask you to read the essay again, and note that «genuine dissent is not trolling. Biased editing, even if defended aggressively, is in itself not trolling. By themselves, misguided nominations, votes, and proposed policy are not trolling». I accept you think I am biased against this article (I think you are biased for it :-), I accept you to think I aggressively defend my opinions (I probably do, and so do you, in my opinion), I accept you think my opinions are misguided (I think yours are). But I ask you to assume good faith. Throwing insults around helps nothing and then hiding behind "It is up to the reader ..." only makes it worse. But I understand we all have a bad day once in a while, so I'll presume this one was one of yours, and I will ignore you for now. - Nabla (talk) 12:06, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is a general comment, not an insult. It is up to the reader to decide if it applies or not. I suggest people also read Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of "Occupy" protest locations. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Occupy South Dakota
South Dakota
Pierre - http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/Pierre-SD/ Rapid City - http://occupyrapidcity.wordpress.com/ Sioux Falls - http://www.occupysufu.org/ Spearfish - http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/Spearfish-SD/ Vermillion - http://www.volanteonline.com/news/protesters-occupy-vermillion-1.2652925 Yankton - http://www.meetup.com/occupytogether/Yankton-SD/401022/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.111.100.143 (talk) 00:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC) :
- While these are not legitimate WP:Reliable sources, I am in the process of pulling up local sources for (some) of these. Trackinfo (talk) 03:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
Tables
For the past two weeks I have been working on these tables with Timeshifter at User:Timeshifter/Table 2 and User:Timeshifter/Sandbox23 (discussion), so please, don't do any wholesale revert of the addition of a table format. A complete revert would remove the formatting, countries, cities, references, and other gathered information. I have added these tables to this article and to List of Occupy movement protest locations in the United States. Every edit anyone has done to these two articles has been evaluated and inserted into the tables so no useful information was lost in the process of making the table. I have added columns for dates for when the protests start, the largest numbers of protesters known, a notes section for links to other specific protest articles and other locations like colleges in those cities. Any reference errors showing on the page have been repaired as well.
Another thing is that all the references have been moved to the bottom of the article, in alphabetical order. This makes editing references easy and the table easier to look at when editing them. The only thing left is making sure references are reliable and information is filled in places where there is a dash. Most of the U.S. table is filled with dashes except for the states and references I have already checked, so information will need to be added to those tables if we have it. I will be working on it like everyone else to replace bad references with reliable ones and filling in information.
To new editors: if you are unfamiliar with the formatting, you can leave comments here or on my talk page at User talk:Moe Epsilon and I will help you in understanding how to edit tables. — Moe ε 13:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Proposed change for table
Using Europe as an example here, there is inconsistency between how the tables are prevented, with it being possible to see provinces/territories in Canada, but not, for example, states in Germany. This is silly. The UK was even split into component countries (which makes little sense as all these are under the same financial/banking system). Anyway, it needs fixed up, and will miss out lots of edits made since I started this. It also need's all the info added in and the same implemented to other continents.
- Note: Proposed table moved to User:Timeshifter/Sandbox21
86.155.49.190 (talk) 00:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Using the format you propose would require an additional column. That means less room for notes. That means more wrapping to 2 lines. Especially with narrower screens, and larger font preferences. The more cities requiring 2 lines the longer it takes to scan the table. There is a note explaining where the UK states can be found. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:51, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I really don't think it's that much of a problem, besides it gives more information that people could well find useful. The UK bit is silly and should not be split up. As I said above, all 4 component countries are subject to the same banking system, there are not enough protests for people to have any real trouble working out which are in England/Scotland/Wales/North Ireland and this is not done for other countries. I in fact found it to make it harder to read when I was looking for all the protests in the UK. 86.155.49.190 (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- The reason Canada and the United States have their respective states and territories in the table, as compared to Australia, Germany, etc. is because there was such a large number of protests being held in the U.S. and Canada that it got its own table. If the number of protests Germany had was so large that it deserved its own table outside of the Europe table, it would be treated like Canada, but it isn't however. — Moe ε 00:46, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
- I really don't think it's that much of a problem, besides it gives more information that people could well find useful. The UK bit is silly and should not be split up. As I said above, all 4 component countries are subject to the same banking system, there are not enough protests for people to have any real trouble working out which are in England/Scotland/Wales/North Ireland and this is not done for other countries. I in fact found it to make it harder to read when I was looking for all the protests in the UK. 86.155.49.190 (talk) 17:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Support OWS from Antartica
someone should add the support from these 7 people in Antartica. http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/blogpost/201110/Images/occupyantarctica.jpg?uuid=36TvcvmSEeCvhYhGIVt8PQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArthurRG (talk • contribs) 23:27, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- I can't see that being legitimate. The people in this picture almost spelled Antarctica incorrectly. — Moe ε 19:52, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
This is a list of towns and location with OWS support
The list was not made by me, but it can be seen here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjEs4YCvfoXWdFhxbmZhTWpKUllLa3ZfNHh3eldsR2c) there are some towns that are not in the article, hope it can help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArthurRG (talk • contribs) 23:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Austria
The Article with reference 108 does neither say when the protests in Vienna began, nor how many people were involved.
Disgraceful
Occupy movement take over Scouts hut. How disgraceful and shameful. http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24033196-scouts-werent-prepared-for-this-squatters-from-st-pauls.do — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.102.100 (talk) 19:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Lloydminster, BC?
One of the articles lists Lloydminster, British Columbia (Canada) as an Occupy location. Here's the problem: there is no Lloydminster, British Columbia. Lloydminster is a border town, half in Alberta and half in Saskatchewan. I'm not sure where the referencing article got its information from, but they should obviously review their sources. --Jon VS (talk) 17:26, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
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